EV Digest 5471
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Off to the Races--Iowa City
by Jim Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Off to the Races
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Xebra, was: Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT (Taps just monitor)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Prius PHEV trip data!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Prius PHEV trip data!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Sources of Energy
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Prius PHEV trip data!
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Prius PHEV trip data!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Minimum Power
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Off to the Races - rain
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
You're going to be in Iowa City?? Hey, that is where I
live! I'm just a mile or two south of I80 on the east side
of town. If I can be of any help, let me know.
Jim Phillips
319.337.3006 (leave a message)
Jim Husted wrote:
> Hey Bob, all
>
> Yea we had 3 drivers but John drove most the way
> yesterday. We pushed through over a 1000 miles to reach
> Cheyenne WY. at around 11:30 late last night. Trying to
> get Wayland motivated as he didn't sleep well last night
> due to train horns, lmao!! Tim nor I heard them, hehehe.
> We should hit Iowa city tonight for an easy push to
> Joliet on Friday. Cya Jim Husted
>
> Ps: EVeryone needs to give Wayland that universal horn
> honking hand pump when they see him, he's just loving
> horns this morning, lmao!!
>
> Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you get time, visit Johns Grocery in Iowa City.
One of the largest selections of beer and wine in the country.
http://www.johnsgrocery.com/Departments/Beer/index.cfm
See you at the races;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Off to the Races
Hey Bob, all
Yea we had 3 drivers but John drove most the way yesterday. We pushed
through over a 1000 miles to reach Cheyenne WY. at around 11:30 late last
night. Trying to get Wayland motivated as he didn't sleep well last night
due to train horns, lmao!! Tim nor I heard them, hehehe. We should hit
Iowa city tonight for an easy push to Joliet on Friday.
Cya
Jim Husted
Ps: EVeryone needs to give Wayland that universal horn honking hand pump
when they see him, he's just loving horns this morning, lmao!!
Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: Off to the Races
> Hey All
>
> Wayland and Tim made it to my house late last night. It's 4:21 and
we'll be out of here soon. Unlike Bob we're looking at 2000 miles so hold
the door to the factor tour would you Bob, lmao.
> Joliet or bust
> Cya all
> Jim Husted
> and a ragged looking Tim and John
> WZ is bushy tailed though, hehehe.
>
Wow! I figgured youse guyz would be in Utah or Nebraska by now? Guess
you have 2 or more pilots/ Only me so I hafta sleep, now an' again.Not 23
anymoore, sigh!
Seeya
Bob, LEAVING for real, now! OHHH! Sunshine peking throu!
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Off this AM for Chicago land.Got only 1000 miles to go! Hope to go several
hundred miles today, and roll in at Warfield Electric, first port of call.
For Fri. Motor factory tour? Factory tours are a lot of fun. See ya there?
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
rates starting at 1ยข/min.
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
There is a brochure on the ZAP site:
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/xebra.asp
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/pdf/Xebra.pdf
but I did not see a Tech Spec sheet, you may
need to ask ZAP or the dealer for more details
and if there is a dealer in California
(Why buy a car from a Californian company in OR
and then worry about the CA licensing?)
BTW, you can test-drive the vehicle this Saturday
in Sonoma at the Sonoma County Fairgrounds:
http://news.zapworld.com//?p=subscribe&id=3
(ZAP asks you to RSVP for this Xebra Test Drive Event)
Any tech details that you can lure away there?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:45 AM
To: Steven Lough
Subject: Re: Why no COMMENTS good-or-bad
That $9999 priced EV had me thinking it would be worth picking one up
for use here in California. Don't know if the licensing would be the
same. It would fit my driving well. Would cost less to buy than a few
packs for my truck.
I'll hunt around and see if there are any serious specs on this thing.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I got to tell ya... Here we have Post after post on a few new Honda
> Hybrid models which aren't even out yet...
>
> And a POST on a 40 mph, pure BEV, al be it from a kind of ....well one
> of those companies... But there REAL. People are buying them $9999. a
> copy, 4 doors, charger and batteries included.
>
> And yet... not one comment. The EV Video from that Salem OR. source
> is worth commenting on all by itself. Forget the funny 3 wheel
XEzebra...
>
> I have NO STOCK or ownership in this... I just thought this was good
> news, and a Real World BEV that really "made it to Market" not
> Vapor-ware, or made of "Unobtainium..."
>
> Here is the POST again:
> Thanks Tim.. Great Footage... (now the whole World can see your
story...)
> http://salem-news.com/articles/may82006/Electric_Cars2_5706.php
>
> PS:I know the PHEV thing is More Important...I was there...
>
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I am Rather impatient with charger speed.
No; really? ;^>
> No fans, 60 Deg C surface... thanks for the market sector....
> this limits your products to under my Radar.
No offense Rich, but your radar isn't any concern for us. Our primary
market is OEMs, and we sell tens of thousands of chargers annually.
When there is money to be made in the on-road market, we'll be there in
force. ;^>
> And Gee Roger... we would not have had a depleted pack at a
> Demo if Your charger had been making 1kW in the first place!!!
Huh? Rich, you showed up at the demo with a depleted pack because you
guys got there early and did laps in the parking lot draining the pack
dry *before* starting any demo rides, not because the AGMs weren't full
when you first hopped in the Prius. And, if you read what Ryan
reported, it took nearly 4kWh to refill the pack, which is well over
4hrs of charging even at 1kW peak output.
You measured 1100W into the charger, which means it was making about 1kW
out. If you want to comment on the charger's output, at least *measure*
it to see what its putting out first.
> Count you and your company lucky I didn't chuck it as far as
> I could!
[shug] That charger was supplied to Calcars, and they installed it in
Ryan's car. I don't know what arrangement Ryan has with Calcars, and
therefore who has ownership of the unit, nor what was paid for it.
If Ron and Ryan are OK with you chucking it, I certainly have no
objection... (less work for me! ;^).
> And clearly the limiter was the 2 amps to 2 volts soft ramp up.
> Hint....loose that feature...
I'll have to see data before I believe that the charger spent more than
a few minutes in this mode. The data collection headaches don't start
until after the 80% LED lights and the current starts pulsing, but even
then an E-Meter ought to accurately track Ah in/out of the pack just
fine.
> The NiMh pack on the east coast has one of your chargers in
> it. Fast turn around ride and drives are happening in less
> than 7 days. It might help If you get me info on that
> charger... so I can get the most from it.
As with all of our chargers, the only info you need is plug it into AC
and when the green light comes on steady, the battery is charged.
The charger will accept 85-265VAC, but derates its output below about
100VAC, so to get full output, make sure the AC line is good.
Efficiency improves as the line voltage increases, so feeding it 240VAC
is always a good thing. The charger will tell you if the AC line is low
enough to cause de-rating by flashing the AC LED. If the LED goes out
completely, the line has dropped below ~80VAC and the charger will
remain off until the line comes back over ~85VAC.
> Anybody on this list knows what's going to happen.. the ride
> and drives will flatten the packs...and then we will have to
> grid charge...
Hopefully whoever is responsible for the demo understands the
limitations of the system. They shouldn't rely on a charger intended
for overnight recharging to turn the pack around in minutes.
> Keep in mind I got a pack driven into my space without a
> known state of charge, and in about 30 minutes had it
> topped off, drained, Max SOC found, recharged, and in
> motion. Charger run on DC for the first time in my shop
> and then wired into and driven 5 miles in about 4 hours
> time.
You're justified in being proud of what you achieved, I haven't argued
that.
> After the first cycle on the PFC30 I was thinking
> about reaching for the nearest PFC50 to slam it full in
> about 15 minutes. Cheap lead Acid has it advantages.
Cheap is relative, of course. A 240V stack of Hawkers is still not
chump change.
> You can push them... and hard... if you keep a eye on
> them. Again this is what I have about 1.5 Decades of
> practice at.
Yep, it's the keeping an eye on them and the cost associated with doing
so that makes all the difference.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> The Prius modules are prismatic so they
> are not the same shape as the Insights?.
Yes, the Hondas and first generation Prius '97-99 (Japan)
used "D" cells with screw together buttons in 6 cell modules.
The new Toyota modules in the SUV's have metal cased prismatic
cells/modules for better thermal conductivity at higher powers.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Most BEV trucks are pretty close to their weight limit, my
US Electricar reaches GWVR when it is fully seated (3) and
when I drive it single-occupant then it has slightly over
300 lbs of cargo carrying capability.
That is why a trailer is a better thing.
Also easier to hook up and leave behind when not needed.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:21 AM
To: Lightning Ryan
Subject: Re: Prius PHEV trip data!
Awesome news Ryan. Sounds like you guys hit a real winner using the PFC.
I can't help but think if this same setup could be useful for a range
extension for an EV. If I had a pile of batts on a small trailer, I
could use the PFC to keep my main pack near full. When the trailered
pack became low, the pfc would just disconnect. Then I run on my main
pack. This is totally possible with my truck as it has a hitch. Or
maybe just pile everything in the bed.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well, I went for my first "real" PHEV trip in the PFC enhanced Prius
> tonight, needed to get some groceries and start collecting some data.
> The PFC is sitting in the rear passenger seat where I can reach back
> and throttle it back should the CCL issue rear it's ugly head.
>
> So I started the trip with the 19 battery PbA pack sitting at 248v.
> Knowing that I'd be going more than the 34mph EV-Only mode speed
> limit I went ahead and let the ICE run through it's emissions warmup
> cycle, and I've also got some hills which require ICE power to climb.
> After 6.3 miles I had arrived at the store with 99.9mpg on the dash,
> which I though was a shame since I couldn't tell how far into the
> 100's it had gone. Ran into the CCL once on the way there so I
> reached back and turned the current down on the PFC, the CCL
> recovered in short order so I kicked the PFC back to full power.
> The Prius transitioned from EV-Mode to Stealth mode at 34mph
> without skipping a beat and I was able to cruse up to 41mph in
> silky smooth silence nearly the entire time after the warmup.
> On the way back I was climbing more and pulling more Amps so
> the SOC didn't stay as high and once it dropped to 45% the ICE
> would kick in even though the Hybrid Pack voltage was still
> hovering around 220v which is well above the 180v lower limit.
> Upon arriving back at home with a total of 12.6 and having run
> the ICE more on the return trip the mileage had dropped back down
> to 89.8mpg which is actually helpful for doing some calculations,
> and the PbA pack was down to 216v. After recharging the Delta-Q
> had put 0.88 kWh back into the pack as measured from the outlet.
>
> So, not bad considering we've just started and haven't implemented the
> automation to keep the SOC higher and have yet to crank up the PFC.
> 12.6 miles / 89.8mpg is 0.14 gallons (4.7 kWh @33.6kWh/gal)
> (4.7kWh * 30% is 1.41kWh) + (0.88kWh * 90% = 0.80kWh) = 2.21kWh
> Roughly 5.7 miles/kWh or 0.175 kWh/mile
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The only potential problem is if a battery fails by going open under bulk
>charge then the charger connected to it will go poof, snap, crackle, & pop
>as it sees full pack voltage on its 12V output.
John, I didn't fully understand the above caveat. How will a single charger
see the full pack voltage?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are right Steve. I saw the video and checked the cars - they seem to
be very nice. If they just would get at least 55mph, I would even consider
to buy one. And actually, I kind of like the way it looks.
mm.
> And yet... not one comment. The EV Video from that Salem OR. source
> is worth commenting on all by itself. Forget the funny 3 wheel XEzebra...
>
> I have NO STOCK or ownership in this... I just thought this was good
> news, and a Real World BEV that really "made it to Market" not
> Vapor-ware, or made of "Unobtainium..."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Rich Rudman wrote:
Gee you guys are good at going at it aren't you, one gets
the impression that you enjoy this. I'm no referee but
I would like to see you guys cool off a little since you
both do such good work...
I already admitted that WE (Rich and I) caused the problem
during the Monday show when we took the pack a little to
low. Sure we could have just reconfigured the PFC for grid
duty and pumped the pack up in an hour, but it was all set
up for it's PHEV job, we needed adapters, and I can't
measure more than 15Amps with my 110vac kWh meter, so....
>>Count you and your company lucky I didn't
>> chuck it as far as I could!
>
> [shug] That charger was supplied to Calcars, and they installed it in
> Ryan's car. I don't know what arrangement Ryan has with Calcars, and
> therefore who has ownership of the unit, nor what was paid for it.
>
> If Ron and Ryan are OK with you chucking it, I certainly have no
> objection... (less work for me! ;^).
No, I don't think that would have been fine with Ron and I.
The Delta-Q is a perfectly capable machine and will continue to
be put to good use by someone (Me at the moment) at CalCars.
> As with all of our chargers, the only info you need is plug it into AC
> and when the green light comes on steady, the battery is charged.
And that's just what happened last night, pulled 0.88kWh
from the outlet in just under two hours with no issues.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
All the batteries are in series with the individual chargers attached
across thier terminals. If the battery internally opens (not likely) the
entire pack voltage will appear across its terminals when the bulk
charger is on. The BMS on my system monitors each battery and prevents
this from happening unless the event is a catastrophic failure. Although
the fuse would blow and protect the rest of the system the output of the
charger attached to that battery would be destroyed instantly.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
>The only potential problem is if a battery fails by going open under
bulk
>charge then the charger connected to it will go poof, snap, crackle, &
pop
>as it sees full pack voltage on its 12V output.
John, I didn't fully understand the above caveat. How will a single
charger
see the full pack voltage?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes this is completely possible..
Not a problem.. and I have a way of shutting of the charger when the Add on
pack gets too low.
We just did it...
Wow... works pretty good.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lightning Ryan" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: Prius PHEV trip data!
> Awesome news Ryan. Sounds like you guys hit a real winner using the PFC.
>
> I can't help but think if this same setup could be useful for a range
> extension for an EV. If I had a pile of batts on a small trailer, I
> could use the PFC to keep my main pack near full. When the trailered
> pack became low, the pfc would just disconnect. Then I run on my main
> pack. This is totally possible with my truck as it has a hitch. Or
> maybe just pile everything in the bed.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I went for my first "real" PHEV trip in the PFC enhanced Prius
> > tonight, needed to get some groceries and start collecting some data.
> > The PFC is sitting in the rear passenger seat where I can reach back
> > and throttle it back should the CCL issue rear it's ugly head.
> >
> > So I started the trip with the 19 battery PbA pack sitting at 248v.
> > Knowing that I'd be going more than the 34mph EV-Only mode speed
> > limit I went ahead and let the ICE run through it's emissions warmup
> > cycle, and I've also got some hills which require ICE power to climb.
> > After 6.3 miles I had arrived at the store with 99.9mpg on the dash,
> > which I though was a shame since I couldn't tell how far into the
> > 100's it had gone. Ran into the CCL once on the way there so I
> > reached back and turned the current down on the PFC, the CCL
> > recovered in short order so I kicked the PFC back to full power.
> > The Prius transitioned from EV-Mode to Stealth mode at 34mph
> > without skipping a beat and I was able to cruse up to 41mph in
> > silky smooth silence nearly the entire time after the warmup.
> > On the way back I was climbing more and pulling more Amps so
> > the SOC didn't stay as high and once it dropped to 45% the ICE
> > would kick in even though the Hybrid Pack voltage was still
> > hovering around 220v which is well above the 180v lower limit.
> > Upon arriving back at home with a total of 12.6 and having run
> > the ICE more on the return trip the mileage had dropped back down
> > to 89.8mpg which is actually helpful for doing some calculations,
> > and the PbA pack was down to 216v. After recharging the Delta-Q
> > had put 0.88 kWh back into the pack as measured from the outlet.
> >
> > So, not bad considering we've just started and haven't implemented the
> > automation to keep the SOC higher and have yet to crank up the PFC.
> > 12.6 miles / 89.8mpg is 0.14 gallons (4.7 kWh @33.6kWh/gal)
> > (4.7kWh * 30% is 1.41kWh) + (0.88kWh * 90% = 0.80kWh) = 2.21kWh
> > Roughly 5.7 miles/kWh or 0.175 kWh/mile
> >
> > L8r
> > Ryan
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Sources of Energy
> On Fri, 5 May 2006 14:22:12 -0500, "Mike Ellis"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Mad "Mad Dog" John. Hmmmm. "Mad Dog".... I think I like that, Rich!
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
Ummm Yo Maddog.... I didn't pick Madman for my handle ...this list did and
acouple of note worthy Ev Racers... poured the CEment right quick...
You need to see Madman's 2 By 4.... Plasma Boy gets to tell that when he
gets his feet on the ground again.
I get to do "Madman goes to DC.".. Washington that is...
The E-mail is going to be in the 1000s when I get back....Whimper!!!
Madman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan wrote:
> Gee you guys are good at going at it aren't you, one gets
> the impression that you enjoy this. I'm no referee but
> I would like to see you guys cool off a little since you
> both do such good work...
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Ryan: Rich and I aren't hot
under the collar (I bet money neither of us is wearing a shirt with a
collar ;^), we're just sparring a bit, friendly like.
> I already admitted that WE (Rich and I) caused the problem
> during the Monday show when we took the pack a little to
> low.
I know, I think the message Rich was replying to may have arrived at
Rich's machine delayed or out of order with the other posts.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> OHhhh Sweet ! 175 watt hrs per mile.....
ok, well that was just my best guess, you saw the math...
> And we need a PFC 40.... I see.
ya, sure would like to get the 40+ Amp breaker in it and
then turn the screws up, if only a little, relatively speaking.
The PFC can't keep up off the line when the car is pulling 110Amps,
but it could catch up quicker when pulling small hills at 40-60Amps.
> Up that ante from 6200 watts of charger to 10Kw of charger...
> gonna need water cooling!!!
Perhaps, especially if you wanna play around in an Escape Hybrid.
> How hot did the PFC30 get??? NO flashing Yellow.....yet??? It takes a couple
> of minutes of full amps just to heat up the heatsinks to Cut back temps.
> I am hoping that.. the thermal lag will ride through the real loads.
> Else... we gonna need the guts from a PFC50.
Shoot Rich, I don't even think the fan spooled up the whole time.
The main problem was that we don't have the multiple modes with the
higher voltage set point in order to keep the SOC high enough, yet.
It started the ICE not because the PFC wasn't keeping the voltage up,
but because the SOC counter was still counting down through <.5kWh.
We really need to get those multiple voltage profiles running using
those reg tricks you mentioned, sounds like you'll be working some
of that out later this week with Ron and CalCars!
> I hear there's a low temp electronics cooling water system in the
> Prius...OK.... Tygon and Hose clamps needed.
The stock motor inverters are liquid cooled, and up front. <shrugs>
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and all,
Also, anyone know the exact color match for the WarP red they put on those
things. The Ford Red has a slight orange'ish tint.
I'm finding out - I'll let you know when I do.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, John. I misread your original post. I kept reading "opens" as
meaning that the battery would become a short circuit across its terminals,
which I didn't see as putting full voltage across the 12V charger. I hadn't
even considered that the battery might fail to the point of providing an
"open" circuit--just like the word said, duh. :)
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sweeney, John P
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
Bill,
All the batteries are in series with the individual chargers attached
across thier terminals. If the battery internally opens (not likely) the
entire pack voltage will appear across its terminals when the bulk
charger is on. The BMS on my system monitors each battery and prevents
this from happening unless the event is a catastrophic failure. Although
the fuse would blow and protect the rest of the system the output of the
charger attached to that battery would be destroyed instantly.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
>The only potential problem is if a battery fails by going open under
bulk
>charge then the charger connected to it will go poof, snap, crackle, &
pop
>as it sees full pack voltage on its 12V output.
John, I didn't fully understand the above caveat. How will a single
charger
see the full pack voltage?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > I am Rather impatient with charger speed.
>
> No; really? ;^>
>
> > No fans, 60 Deg C surface... thanks for the market sector....
> > this limits your products to under my Radar.
>
> No offense Rich, but your radar isn't any concern for us. Our primary
> market is OEMs, and we sell tens of thousands of chargers annually.
> When there is money to be made in the on-road market, we'll be there in
> force. ;^>
>
> > And Gee Roger... we would not have had a depleted pack at a
> > Demo if Your charger had been making 1kW in the first place!!!
>
> Huh? Rich, you showed up at the demo with a depleted pack because you
> guys got there early and did laps in the parking lot draining the pack
> dry *before* starting any demo rides, not because the AGMs weren't full
> when you first hopped in the Prius. And, if you read what Ryan
> reported, it took nearly 4kWh to refill the pack, which is well over
> 4hrs of charging even at 1kW peak output.
What happened was the 2 amp limp it up to 2 volts a cell looked a LOT like 2
amps of taper... We just ASSumed this was what it was set to.
Well we learned a bit since then didn't we???
After a couple of What was that volts???? calcs... And hours of talking and
answering questions... Then it became clear that most of the afternoon was
in the limp 2 amp mode...
Then it got with it.. then we packed for the trip back.... Ryan got it to do
a full job the next day... after the 2 amps tepid taper made us look like
fools.
>
> You measured 1100W into the charger, which means it was making about 1kW
> out. If you want to comment on the charger's output, at least *measure*
> it to see what its putting out first.
We didn't have acces to the output pins... well protected Andersons are a
pain when you need to stick test probes into them... I was cursed by doing a
good job on those cables.
>
> > Count you and your company lucky I didn't chuck it as far as
> > I could!
>
> [shug] That charger was supplied to Calcars, and they installed it in
> Ryan's car. I don't know what arrangement Ryan has with Calcars, and
> therefore who has ownership of the unit, nor what was paid for it.
I am not worried about that. I am trying to solve problems... and know why
they accured... IF you hammer a pack .. better find a charger that can stuff
the watts into a REALLY low pack voltage.. then maybe the DQ can take it
from there.
It's not what you want to hear... It's my pain for finding this out the hard
way.
>
> If Ron and Ryan are OK with you chucking it, I certainly have no
> objection... (less work for me! ;^).
>
I didn't want to mess with it. Having respect for your efforts and product.
> > And clearly the limiter was the 2 amps to 2 volts soft ramp up.
> > Hint....loose that feature...
>
> I'll have to see data before I believe that the charger spent more than
> a few minutes in this mode. The data collection headaches don't start
> until after the 80% LED lights and the current starts pulsing, but even
> then an E-Meter ought to accurately track Ah in/out of the pack just
> fine.
What didn't make sense was a pack voltage of 11.7 volt a battery after hours
of charging. I pass this data point on a 30 amp charger so fast I don't
normally notice it.
It had your unit in fold back current limit. for quite a while.
point made OK...lets get on with it. We hammered the pack.. and got our Arse
back before we did damage, Barley.
Your unit should make it's full power into this data point... a Plug in
Hybrid pack is going to be Run flat on every cycle... it will be the nature
of the application....Plan for it.
Most folks will drive the PHev until the add a pack is flat.. then continue
on, on Gas... and then opertunity charge when convienient. Most likley not
getting a full honest charge until they park it at night.
All since must be charged and removed by Sun up or you never get
equalization. You have the market.... maybe not for long.
>
> > The NiMh pack on the east coast has one of your chargers in
> > it. Fast turn around ride and drives are happening in less
> > than 7 days. It might help If you get me info on that
> > charger... so I can get the most from it.
>
> As with all of our chargers, the only info you need is plug it into AC
> and when the green light comes on steady, the battery is charged.
I can see we need a 1000 watt 12 volt to 120 inverter so we can charge the
Add a pack while driving EV mode... We won't have time to do much Grid work.
>
> The charger will accept 85-265VAC, but derates its output below about
> 100VAC, so to get full output, make sure the AC line is good.
> Efficiency improves as the line voltage increases, so feeding it 240VAC
> is always a good thing. The charger will tell you if the AC line is low
> enough to cause de-rating by flashing the AC LED. If the LED goes out
> completely, the line has dropped below ~80VAC and the charger will
> remain off until the line comes back over ~85VAC.
So a 800 watt or better inverter migh tjust keep the watts trickling in from
the 12 volt lighter output of the Prius??
>
> > Anybody on this list knows what's going to happen.. the ride
> > and drives will flatten the packs...and then we will have to
> > grid charge...
>
> Hopefully whoever is responsible for the demo understands the
> limitations of the system. They shouldn't rely on a charger intended
> for overnight recharging to turn the pack around in minutes.
Not a problem... I think I have that well handled...
>
> > Keep in mind I got a pack driven into my space without a
> > known state of charge, and in about 30 minutes had it
> > topped off, drained, Max SOC found, recharged, and in
> > motion. Charger run on DC for the first time in my shop
> > and then wired into and driven 5 miles in about 4 hours
> > time.
>
> You're justified in being proud of what you achieved, I haven't argued
> that.
>
Ok... thanks... lets hope my luck continues ...for all us in the Back yard
plug in Hybrid efforts.
> > After the first cycle on the PFC30 I was thinking
> > about reaching for the nearest PFC50 to slam it full in
> > about 15 minutes. Cheap lead Acid has it advantages.
>
> Cheap is relative, of course. A 240V stack of Hawkers is still not
> chump change.
They weren't Hawkers... but Manzanita Micro's first PIPrius Kit will have
Hawker Genniss 26 amp hour batteries.
I have picked the Quality name... Because I want you all to know I am not
messing around here. Clearly Kits without any batteries will be availale.
The costing structure is falling in place...
Adding Mk3 Regs and a BSD Reg Scan tool... gets pricey...since we have not
buidlt them.
>
> > You can push them... and hard... if you keep a eye on
> > them. Again this is what I have about 1.5 Decades of
> > practice at.
>
> Yep, it's the keeping an eye on them and the cost associated with doing
> so that makes all the difference.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> Gee you guys are good at going at it aren't you, one gets
> the impression that you enjoy this. I'm no referee but
> I would like to see you guys cool off a little since you
> both do such good work...
Enjoy this?? this is how we learn!!
>
>
> And that's just what happened last night, pulled 0.88kWh
> from the outlet in just under two hours with no issues.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
Errrrr twist Squirm....880 watt hour in 2 hours... Geez that's less than the
waste heat I make at 5Kw on a measly PFC20. Oh... ouch.... NEEeeeed Gasp!
MOre Watts....
Lights fades to dimm..... Back up power....NOT found!
Loging.. off power fail.....#$^%^&*((&*((&)*&_(...
LOST carrier!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shrugs??
Water cooling lets me make PFC50 levels of amps... off of DC that's more
like 150 amps... in a PFC30 sized case.
Lets keep in mind that a PFC40 is 4 times the original watts levels we
intended to get from this package. I keep finding a few 1000 watts here and
there...
If the fans are not coming on... then we have more over head to play with..
That's good for the small case chargers.
Yea I would like to have a tire smoking Ford hybrid EV Madman spec....
Maybe some of my current Stardom will drop one on my toes.... Green one
please!!
Keep the good data flowing... I wanna hear you getting even more miles per
Kw, and getting the add on pack filled about 10 times a day.
The more you add power the less gas you use and the closer you get to making
a 100 MPG for a full tank full of Fuel. I wanna see 500 per gallon.!
Er that's a 100 charges ...on this current pack. Speed is needed.
Mark my words.....here.....It's the difference between a good feeling and a
good solution to our current problems.
Rich Rudman
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: Prius PHEV trip data!
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > OHhhh Sweet ! 175 watt hrs per mile.....
>
> ok, well that was just my best guess, you saw the math...
>
> > And we need a PFC 40.... I see.
>
> ya, sure would like to get the 40+ Amp breaker in it and
> then turn the screws up, if only a little, relatively speaking.
>
> The PFC can't keep up off the line when the car is pulling 110Amps,
> but it could catch up quicker when pulling small hills at 40-60Amps.
>
> > Up that ante from 6200 watts of charger to 10Kw of charger...
> > gonna need water cooling!!!
>
> Perhaps, especially if you wanna play around in an Escape Hybrid.
>
> > How hot did the PFC30 get??? NO flashing Yellow.....yet??? It takes a
couple
> > of minutes of full amps just to heat up the heatsinks to Cut back temps.
> > I am hoping that.. the thermal lag will ride through the real loads.
> > Else... we gonna need the guts from a PFC50.
>
> Shoot Rich, I don't even think the fan spooled up the whole time.
> The main problem was that we don't have the multiple modes with the
> higher voltage set point in order to keep the SOC high enough, yet.
> It started the ICE not because the PFC wasn't keeping the voltage up,
> but because the SOC counter was still counting down through <.5kWh.
> We really need to get those multiple voltage profiles running using
> those reg tricks you mentioned, sounds like you'll be working some
> of that out later this week with Ron and CalCars!
>
> > I hear there's a low temp electronics cooling water system in the
> > Prius...OK.... Tygon and Hose clamps needed.
>
> The stock motor inverters are liquid cooled, and up front. <shrugs>
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Stefan T. Peters" wrote:
> Undersized wire sounds like a simple setup to limit current.
It is simple and cheap. The old CitiCars used this method; they were
wired with #2 (not #2/0 or #00, but #2) to limit the peak current if you
floored it from a dead stop.
Also, any reasonable contactor controller will include a starting
resistor. This is just a big resistor chosen to set the motor current
when you start from a dead stop. Typically, it will limit the stall
current to something like 150-300 amps. You switch this resistor in
series with the motor to get started, and then short it out once you
reach a few mph.
The resistor gets *hot*, so it is usually bare wire, wound on some
non-combustible form. Ideally, you use stainless steel or nichrome,
which have a high melting point and remain fairly strong mechanically
even when hot. You can buy resistors like this for $20 or so from places
like www.candhsales.com
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What happens if it rains on Saturday? will they
postpone
till Sunday or cancel?
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Then it became clear that most of the afternoon was
> in the limp 2 amp mode... Then it got with it..
I hear you Rich, but I'm having real trouble believing that the charger
spent an hour or more in qualification mode.
I've taken batteries with 10x the capacity of what you're dealing with
down to nothing (as in my load bank is unable to hold its set current
when the *pack* voltage get down to 2V or less) and haven't had them
take hours at 5A to come up to where the charger switches to normal
mode.
You guys may have had low output for one reason or another, but I need
to see real data before I can explain to you what the charger was really
doing and why.
> after the 2 amps tepid taper made us look like fools.
Naaa, if you guys looked like fools, it is because you did something
foolish ;^>
If you knew you only had a 1kW charger to refill with, you either
wouldn't have drained the pack joy-riding right before the demos, or you
would have come prepared with an alternative higher power charge means.
Even at full output (3.6A) it could take close to 4hrs to get the pack
back up to 80%SOC after a near 20Ah discharge.
> > You measured 1100W into the charger, which means it was
> > making about 1kW out. If you want to comment on the
> > charger's output, at least *measure* it to see what its
> > putting out first.
>
> We didn't have acces to the output pins... well protected
> Andersons are a pain when you need to stick test probes
> into them...
First, let me be clear that I'm not criticising you guys for the lack of
data collection at the demo; I'm actually surprised that you had any
meters with you at all. But, if we are going to talk meaningfully about
what the charger did or didn't do, and why, then we need to measure the
input and output.
Now, as to this well-protected Anderson... Did you install that on the
charger's output cable? The negative (black) output wire had a black
plastic molded blob just before the ring terminal. That blob contained
the battery temperature sensing thermistor that connects between the
white output wire and the black (pack -ve) wire. Obviously, if this
blob has been removed, then the charger can no longer sense battery
temperature and cannot compensate the charge voltages.
> IF you hammer a pack .. better find a charger that can stuff
> the watts into a REALLY low pack voltage.. then maybe the DQ
> can take it from there.
Our philosophy is a bit different, because our products end up in the
hands of people who are not battery charging experts (and don't want to
be), and our chargers are fully capable of stuffing full rated output
into a dead short indefinitely unless the software takes steps to
prevent it.
The gentle trickle up to 2V/cell mode is there to protect the unwary
user against connecting a charger to the wrong pack voltage and having
it hammer the pack for hours trying (for instance) to get a 48V pack to
meet the charged parameters for a 72V pack. It also gently recovers a
seriously over-discharged pack of the proper voltage to about the 20%SOC
state before hitting them with full current. If the pack voltage is low
because of shorted or otherwise seriously damaged cells, we don't want
to turn the charger loose on it.
Now, at the low current levels that our high voltage models run, it
might well be that there really isn't enough difference between tricking
the pack at 2A and hitting it with the full 3.6A to worry about it.
However, in our experience, even with a seriously over discharged pack,
as long as there are no damaged cells the charger does not spend a
significant amount of time in this phase.
> What didn't make sense was a pack voltage of 11.7 volt a
> battery after hours of charging. I pass this data point
> on a 30 amp charger so fast I don't normally notice it.
Yes, at lower charge rates the voltage ramps up quite gently through
much of the bulk phase. As I've stated, however, I have never seen a
pack reamin <2V/cell for more than a few tens of minutes after we start
trickling it, even with packs 10x the capacity of this one.
> I can see we need a 1000 watt 12 volt to 120 inverter so we
> can charge the Add a pack while driving EV mode... We won't
> have time to do much Grid work.
> So a 800 watt or better inverter migh tjust keep the watts
> trickling in from the 12 volt lighter output of the Prius??
If you want to do it the easy way, just feed the charger from the Prius
HV DC bus. It'll run happily on about 120VDC-375VDC (below this the low
AC line logic will kick in and throttle the unit back or shut it off).
If you go the inverter approach, you'd need at least 1000W of inverter
to get full output (3.6A @ 240VDC); the power rises as the pack comes
up, so you'll need at least 1200W of inverter if you want to be able to
take the pack up to 80% or better this way.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
