EV Digest 5486
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Prius Taxi
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Dump Charge Current
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Brushless turnkey system available
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RAV, Insight motors, was: Vectrix
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: RAV, Insight motors, was: Vectrix
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AC vs. DC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Auto tranny shift solenoid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Be careful what you wish for..
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Chaz Haba / Global Electric / Hybrid Technologieg
by "Dave Roekle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Be careful what you wish for..
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC vs. DC
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Chaz Haba / Global Electric / Hybrid Technologieg
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Chaz Haba / Global Electric / Hybrid Technologieg
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Be careful what you wish for..
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC vs. DC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC vs. DC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC vs. DC
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) PFC-30 questions
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AC vs. DC
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: AC vs. DC
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: AC vs. DC
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: AC vs. DC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Vectrix
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Chaz Haba / Global Electric / Hybrid Technologieg
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If you REALLY wanted one, you would have moved ;-}
Serious - aren't you relocating to Detroit to get the
newest Dodge RAM 1500 with a wonderful real life 11 MPG?
Must be an honor to be allowed to drive one.
/sarcasm off
(Note: real life MPG as published by Consumer Report)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dave Davidson
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
Not to mention that those of us not in California were automatically
excluded.
----Original Message Follows----
From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:18:47 -0700
On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 08:33:30AM -0700, David Murphy wrote:
> I agree that this price doesn't tell you much about the broader
> market. However, I'd like to share my own experience trying to get
> info on one of these when it was for sale.
Wow, this is eerily similar to the experience I had when trying to get a
RAV4 EV.
I was looking at one on the lot, and a sales man came over and told me the
gas version of the RAV was much better!
He then said that the RAV4 EV is not nearly as reliable as most Toyota
products, and because of this there is no extended warranty to be had.
I then jokingly asked if he does not make a commission on these cars, and he
told me that customers who are upset with the RAV4EV take it out on there
sales men.
I told him I was still interested, and asked if I could take a test drive.
I was never able to take a test drive, or even get started on the purchase
process.
Perhaps if I was more persistent, I would have gotten one? This was in early
2003, when the program was basically over.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVEN a modified Prius ...Modified to be PLUGGED-IN, will always REVERT
back to fuel-driven-power, if the batteries are down.
So the gentelmen who said something about a taxi in the Rain, telling a
potential customer he was "Out of Battery".... is a case that would
Never come UP..
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I vaguely recall this question coming up some years ago, but
apparently I didn't save the thread and I can't find it anywhere on
the web now.
I was asked about dump charging from a larger off-board battery pack
the other day, and it started me thinking. Given a 13 battery 156
Volt (nominal) battery pack, what size pack would be the most
appropriate match for a rapid dump charge? If we assume that we want
the dump pack near full discharge as the EV pack reaches full charge,
then something like an 18 battery 216 Volt dump pack would
match. This could mean as much as a 90+ Volt difference when they
are first connected, and flatten to a near zero Volt difference when
full charge is reached. To my mind this sounds like ridiculously
high currents at the start and barely a trickle near the end.
So, what actually determines the current? Assuming both battery
packs are made of 12 Volt 100 AH batteries of 0.0024 Ohms internal
resistance, how high would the initial current be? What would the
ending current be?
I tried fumbling it out myself, but it seems a bit much. If we start
at a voltage difference of 90 Volts, with a total of 31, 0.0024 Ohm
batteries in the circuit, then don't we have a total resistance of
.0744 Ohms? If Current equals Voltage divided by Resistance, then
90/.0744 = 1209.7 Amps! That sounds like something should melt
pretty quick. Using the same numbers, when it is down to a 1 Volt
difference, it would be 1/.0744 = 13.4 Amps. This sounds like we are
starting with too high a voltage difference, so I aimed not to exceed
400 Amps current.
I then tried the equation again and again with few and fewer
batteries in the dump pack. Even just going from 14 fully charged
batteries to 13 completely discharged ones, the initial current was
still on the order of 658 Amps.
So, have I really hit upon why nobody does this, or is my math
lousy? I did not allow for Voltage sag, how do I determine that? I
suppose a resistor in the circuit that could be bypassed at some
point, or perhaps several, would make things work more
smoothly. Maybe some sort of pulse circuit similar to a motor controller?
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
Please explain why this is a benefit if most eBike/scooter
conversion kits cost under $300 and offer 300W and 450W systems?
I bought my eBike second hand for $250 with motor, batteries,
controller and throttle included and installed.
Maybe that regen is interesting in SF, but most areas it has
no use for scooter/bike as the amount of power delivered back
into the battery can hardly be measured. Certainly under 5%.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:55 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Brushless turnkey system available
I was at Todd Kollin's Electricmotorsports in Oakland the other day and saw
a very intersting brushless system. It was complete and all you needed to
do was add batteries. Todd figured it was easier for the end user if he did
the wiring and offered it completely setup & bench tested. Some of Todds
creations are very peppy and this has the potential with regen to be very
useable for scooters & small motorcycles. He has a 90 and a 200 watt unit.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/ He said he was changing the site to show
the system but all I could find was NOW AVAILABLE WITH AC DRIVE. He wants
1000 & 1200 respectively for the two levels of power. Seems like a good
deal. Haven't seen it in action yet but it's supposed to be the brushless
ETEK. Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
all production EVs and Hybrids use AC motors.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 6:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Vectrix
I'm new to the list and will plead ignorance ... are the motors in the
RAV, and Insight AC or DC? I'm curious as to the direction industry is
leaning with respect to which technology holds the most promise.
Thanks,
Ralph.
(da list newbie)
David Roden wrote:
> On 16 May 2006 at 2:13, Nick Austin wrote:
>
>
>> I hope we have a Liion upgrade for the RAV4EV ready for when these packs
start
>> getting tired and the warranties are out.
>>
>
> I suspect that at least some of those now buying these RAVs at
stratospheric
> prices will abandon them if or when they find that they can no longer take
> them to the local dealer for service, but (like most of us!) have to fix
the
> problems themselves.
>
> OTOH, it's possible that someone will figure out how to reverse-engineer
the
> RAV's control software, just as some clever folks have doped out how to
fool
> the Prius into accepting a larger onboard battery. Something similar
seems
> to have happened with the USE conversions using long-unsupported Hughes
> drive systems. Maybe such a person or group will form an enterprise to
> continue supporting the RAVs, at least in the regions where they're most
> concentrated, when Toyota leaves them twisting in the wind.
>
> I really hope that happens. If not - well, look at it this way, at least
> that will provide a nice field of reasonably-priced gliders for us EV
> hobbyists to re-convert with open-source components.
>
> Keep your fingers crossed for these folks!
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ralph,
> all production EVs and Hybrids use AC motors.
or BLDC, but that's splitting hairs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick Todd wrote:
> I am new to the whole EV thing and am looking to get started with
> a conversion. The one thing that perplexes me at the moment is
> the AC vs. DC technology. Right now at this moment in time which
> is the better technology?
"Better" depends on what your goals are. AC is the "high road" -- it
costs more, is more complicated, more efficient, higher tech, has more
bells & whistles. DC is the "low road" -- cheaper, simpler, lower tech,
a little less efficient, and provides just the basic features needed to
get you going.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could be useful for a conversion with an automatic:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4640840577
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Believe me or not out there, I actually talked to the seller. He was calling on
my Insight I had for sale the day after the sale. We chatted about EV's for a
little while, and he didn't seem at all discouraged about the auction and said
the winning bidder was getting the money put together. I'm relatively certain
the sale went just fine, and your probably right in that the bidders joined to
bid on the RAV. He seemed tickled pink about the sale and didn't want to sell
it, but had a commute that was longer than the RAV could do after moving.
John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Edward Kellogg posted:
> On May 1, 2006, at 7:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> > ViewItem&item=4633576306
>
> Are you trying to insinuate something? It could just be that the
> interested parties only use ebay occasionally, for something important.
I'll take a stab at what this cryptic message probably means.
Someone had posted a comment that said something like "notice how all
the top bidders had very low amounts of feedback". I thought the
same thing, in fact they probably became new members of eBay just so
they could bid on the RAV4.
John
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd love to see you make this work. I'm excited for
you! But I can't help but think that when adjusted
for inflation, gas prices are just now, _even_ with
where they were in the 80s.
If it were me, I'd be (and I am), waiting for gas to
hit $4 per gallon. I'm thinking you want lots of
customers, and lots of investors lining up.
Sorry to poke holes, and it's just one person's
opinion, but there you have it...
--- Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We started Left Coast Conversions to do some
> conversions here in Los Angeles and raise public
> awareness for electric vehicles. The vision started
> to
> grow and took on a life of it's own. Well now, we
> are
> raising capitol to really do this right, we are
> planing on going public this year, and will be
> negotiating licenses with some of our suppliers to
> manufacture in house to have parts in stock and
> ready
> to go. And we are designing new products to make
> conversions much simpler. This will benefit
> everyone.
> If you are already a seller of parts for EV's, you
> can
> become a dealer. I don't want to cut anyone out. I
> am
> much better off with a system of dealers in place.
>
> The new trailer for Who Killed the Electric Car is
> out
> at
> http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
> I have a little shot in it where the announcer asks
> "who do you think killed the electric car?" and I
> say
> "I think it's big oil". I hope that doesn't get a
> contract out on me. LOL. but I do get to talk about
> doing conversions so people know we are in business.
>
> We also had a little blurb in the LA weekly titled
> "Who Resurrected the Electric Car?". That should go
> into a full blown article in the next few weeks.
>
> And I had KABC news here doing an interview
> yesterday,
> which I thought would be a little snippet on the
> evening news...I was told it was going to be a
> "piece", whatever that is. I was interviewed for a
> full two hours.
>
> We also have Tommy Chong's car (Cheech and Chong,
> that
> 70's show)in the shop. As soon as we iron out the
> contracts, we will start the conversion. It is a
> 1946
> Oldsmobile lowrider. It will be used in Tommy's new
> movie. It is written into the script as an ICE
> beater.
> Comedy will be the medium to showcase EV's. We are
> negotiating to have the car as a featured vehicle at
> the SEMA show in Las Vegas in November, and at the
> CES
> in January, also in Los Vegas.
>
> Things have been going so well, that I think I might
> just wear out my goosebump reflex. Is that possible?
> There are even more things in the works, and I will
> post them here as they become reality. What a wild
> ride this is....
>
> visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com,
> gadgetsworld.org, leftcoastconversions.com
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Considering Toyota still makes the RAV4, it would be interesting for
them to bring back the EV version but use Lithium batteries this time
around.. and then offer that electric power train in all their current
vehicle models.. If they get on it now, they can have these vehicles
ready for when the next round of hurricanes happen and gas is $4 or $5
a gallon..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is anyone familiar with Chaz Haba (Lithium House in Van Nuys) and
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/, http://www.globalelectric.com
<http://www.globalelectric.com/> and the work he has done with lithium
batteries?
Dave Roekle
951-278-2370
951-278-2886 Fax
AIM: daveroekle
Yahoo: daveroekle
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about some "bolt in" "off the shelf" conversion kits? Basically
bolt in battery racks for a variety of cars(price is an important
consideration)? Good step by step install instructions which are
basically pictures with captions underneath them. Or install videos.
I recently bought this PowerGlide assembly video. Anyone who sees
that video could assemble a 'Glide from parts:
http://www.idealhowtovideo.com/power_glide06.htm
Adapter plates... ?
No interest financing on conversions or parts? Have people drop off
their car and convert it and have them pay it off using monthly
payments?
Can I purchase a big Zilla for ~$500 a month?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is DC really less efficient? It would seem with inverter inefficiencies
that AC would deliver less net to the motor. Is there a reference on
the electrical efficiencies of AC vs DC? Despite the cons listed on
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_DriveType.html I'd just convinced
my self that DC was the way to go, given the conversion price
differences ... I just don't see the extra money yielding more in my
pocket over the life time of components ... especially if the principal
motor maintenance is just changing brushes every 50K-100K miles. Which
is better at highway speeds? I know this topic is very highly contested
depending upon who your talking to. Please correct me if I'm wrong
before I start buying pieces and parts! I'd like to make the best
informed decision. Thanks in advance.
Still a newbie,
Ralph.
Lee Hart wrote:
Rick Todd wrote:
I am new to the whole EV thing and am looking to get started with
a conversion. The one thing that perplexes me at the moment is
the AC vs. DC technology. Right now at this moment in time which
is the better technology?
"Better" depends on what your goals are. AC is the "high road" -- it
costs more, is more complicated, more efficient, higher tech, has more
bells & whistles. DC is the "low road" -- cheaper, simpler, lower tech,
a little less efficient, and provides just the basic features needed to
get you going.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm thinking of riding down to their location in Mooresville in the next
few days ... I'll send you some pictures if I can get 'em to give me an
interview. They have some awesome products ... price tag to match!
Dave Roekle wrote:
Is anyone familiar with Chaz Haba (Lithium House in Van Nuys) and
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/, http://www.globalelectric.com
<http://www.globalelectric.com/> and the work he has done with lithium
batteries?
Dave Roekle
951-278-2370
951-278-2886 Fax
AIM: daveroekle
Yahoo: daveroekle
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Is anyone familiar with Chaz Haba (Lithium House in Van Nuys) and
> http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/, http://www.globalelectric.com
> <http://www.globalelectric.com/> and the work he has done with lithium
> batteries?
>
>
Google "Chaz Haba" and you'll get loads of hits.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gadget, I saw your Triumph in that trailer. Nice car. Can't
wait to see what it looks like painted. Just love the body
the GT6 has. Quite aerodynamic, I'm amazed your range is so
poor. By your range description in an earlier message, it
sounds like you're getting 500 wh/mile! Definately need some
alignment adjustments, LRR tires, new wheel bearings, and
maybe some transmission work. Ralph Goodwin's Spitfire is in
the 180-200 wh/mile region, and it is nowhere near as
aerodynamic as a GT6. Get that down to 160-180 wh/mile, and
there is no doubt that you wouldn't get at least 30 miles
range on 15 Orbitals when driven sanely.
As for Tommy Chong, I have a photo of one of my friends
meeting him at a comedy club, if you're interested.
Apparantly they got high together in the back of a VW
Vanagon. Glad to see he's getting an EV built. Probably
reeks of cannabis. :p
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Toyota rep explained to me .. they do not feel the market is there
and produced the first elec Rav at a loss. There plan is to convert
everything to hybrid
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Considering Toyota still makes the RAV4, it would be interesting for
> them to bring back the EV version but use Lithium batteries this time
> around.. and then offer that electric power train in all their current
> vehicle models.. If they get on it now, they can have these vehicles
> ready for when the next round of hurricanes happen and gas is $4 or $5
> a gallon..
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> Is DC really less efficient? It would seem with inverter inefficiencies
> that AC would deliver less net to the motor.
It's a complicated question.
If you spent the same amount of money on both an AC and a DC drive,
their performance and efficiency would be essentially the same.
However, AC drives cost considerably more. This extra money goes into
improving efficiency, adding features (like regen), and increasing its
useful torque/speed range.
> Is there a reference on the electrical efficiencies of AC vs DC?
At the heart of it, all motors are AC motors, so all have the same basic
efficiency. A "DC" motor is really an AC motor with a built-in
mechanical inverter (the brushes and commutator). A "brushless DC" motor
is an AC motor with an electronic commutator.
> I'd just convinced myself that DC was the way to go, given the
> conversion price differences... I just don't see the extra money
> yielding more in my pocket over the life time of components...
> especially if the principal motor maintenance is just changing
> brushes every 50K-100K miles.
Yes, on a strictly economic basis, DC is hard to beat.
> Which is better at highway speeds?
Neither. The "best" system is one that has been carefully designed and
optimized, regardless of whether it is AC or DC.
Before you get paralyzed by indecision, just remember this. BOTH WORK!
It's like agonizing over whether to buy your new car with a manual or
automatic transmission. There are differences, but they are not all that
important in the grand scheme of things. They both work, and have
essentially the same performance -- one just costs a little more and is
a little easier to use.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
If you spent the same amount of money on both an AC and a DC drive,
their performance and efficiency would be essentially the same.
Agreed.
However, AC drives cost considerably more.
Not if compared apples to apples.
This extra money goes into
improving efficiency, adding features (like regen), and increasing its
useful torque/speed range.
Regen and high RPM range basically come for free. In fact you'd pay
extra to design an AC controller with fundamentally disabled regen.
Please provide an example of "considerably more" cost AC system which
has *no more* features or technical advantages over DC one (so apples
to apples comparison). Else the message can be read as AC systems are
more expensive just for the sake of being "AC" or fashion, while no
real tech advantages.
Now, you may not find an EV AC systems as primitive as big PWM chopper
(DC controller) or contactor controller, but this is not what we're
comparing.
For instance, if you find a DC system having these features
http://www.metricmind.com/features.htm and it will be still
"considerably less" cost than Siemens inverter described there
(even new, not surplus), then indeed AC setup is more expensive
than DC for no real reason. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.
Until then, sorry, I thing you're wrong on this one Lee.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thank you for your reply ... on with DC then! Until an AC system can
compete more closely DC is the most practical decision for me. Now can
anyone recommend a DC motor that is a screamer ... something that
operates in upper speed ranges. I do not know my gear ratios as of yet
as I'm still determining the donor I will use. I have contemplated
something small and 4wd, like a Subaru, to something more along the
lines of an RX7 or Porsche 924 or 944. I will be checking out the
Hybrid Technologies group to see if they are legit later in the next
couple of weeks, Li Ion seems the way to go if it lives up to its
promises ... here again price/quality will dictate my final decision.
It sounds like a good motor/controller combination is the key to the
materials of a successful project.
Comments please ... thanks in advance.
Ralph.
Lee Hart wrote:
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
Is DC really less efficient? It would seem with inverter inefficiencies
that AC would deliver less net to the motor.
It's a complicated question.
If you spent the same amount of money on both an AC and a DC drive,
their performance and efficiency would be essentially the same.
However, AC drives cost considerably more. This extra money goes into
improving efficiency, adding features (like regen), and increasing its
useful torque/speed range.
Is there a reference on the electrical efficiencies of AC vs DC?
At the heart of it, all motors are AC motors, so all have the same basic
efficiency. A "DC" motor is really an AC motor with a built-in
mechanical inverter (the brushes and commutator). A "brushless DC" motor
is an AC motor with an electronic commutator.
I'd just convinced myself that DC was the way to go, given the
conversion price differences... I just don't see the extra money
yielding more in my pocket over the life time of components...
especially if the principal motor maintenance is just changing
brushes every 50K-100K miles.
Yes, on a strictly economic basis, DC is hard to beat.
Which is better at highway speeds?
Neither. The "best" system is one that has been carefully designed and
optimized, regardless of whether it is AC or DC.
Before you get paralyzed by indecision, just remember this. BOTH WORK!
It's like agonizing over whether to buy your new car with a manual or
automatic transmission. There are differences, but they are not all that
important in the grand scheme of things. They both work, and have
essentially the same performance -- one just costs a little more and is
a little easier to use.
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:42:39 -0400
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Chaz Haba / Global Electric / Hybrid Technologieg
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Interesting things some investors have to say about Haba:
http://www.marketwatch.com/discussions/msgIndex.asp?siteId=mktw&boardId=73519
They make Haba sound like he's the evil EV counter part to David Icke (
http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm )!
Death to All Spammers wrote:
>> Is anyone familiar with Chaz Haba (Lithium House in Van Nuys) and
>> http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/, http://www.globalelectric.com
>> <http://www.globalelectric.com/> and the work he has done with lithium
>> batteries?
>>
>>
>>
>
> Google "Chaz Haba" and you'll get loads of hits.
>
>
>
>
>
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