EV Digest 5519
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: AC vs. DC - hopefully ending (for now...)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Limiting Current in DC setup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) range extension
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Deka AGM vs. Sanyo D nicad (6000 nicad cells in a drag racer)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: NiMH working but Unavailable
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: range extension
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Three-wheel Go-cart
by Juergen Weichert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Limiting Current in DC setup
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) on not capitalizing in emails
by elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Deka AGM vs. Sanyo D nicad (6000 nicad cells in a drag racer)
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) My EV is down.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Almost Free EV!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) re.paint colors
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC vs. DC - hopefully ending (for now...)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RAV4 EV maintainence
by "Steve Arlint" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: range extension
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: AC vs. DC - hopefully ending (for now...)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Limiting Current in DC setup
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Plug-in Toyota Highlander
by "Shawn M. Waggoner \(EVDL\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) [OT] Re: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization .. to hear to be
here
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> HV to HV seem apples to apples to me. HV AC compared to LV DC is
> not quite the same, even though LV DC still makes more raw power.
>
> Reason: if AC system uses more expensive silicon and caps and
> other bits and pieces, and customer gets benefits for this
> extra expense, for comparison reason you also add such components
> and also add some extra cost.
Victor, could you elaborate on what the benefits are that a customer
gets (from AC or DC systems) that are purely associated with the
traction pack voltage?
I could be looking at this wrong, but it seems to me that all the
customer cares about is the rated power of the system, and whether or
not the continuous and peak power ratings are an appropriate match for
the application.
In this regard, the traction pack voltage is merely a means to an end;
if I need X kW for my application, I can use a system with a voltage V
and current limit I, or I can use a system with voltage 2V and current
limit 0.5I. I'm not sure that anyone shopping for an electric
drivetrain first decides that they want a traction pack voltage V and
then goes shopping to see what motor/controller combinations are
available that are compatible with that voltage and will satisfy the
power requirements. I think the pack voltage mostly ends up determined
by the type of batteries one wants to use, and the total pack capacity
one requires.
Consider for a moment the 60kW peak/18kW continuous AC systems you
mentioned elsewhere in this thread. 60kW peak is about 178A @ 336V. A
336V string of Optima YTs weighs about 1200lbs and has a drop dead
capacity of about 13.4kWh (assuming 40Ah typical capacity for a YT).
For decent battery life, about 1/2 of this capacity (6.7kWh) is actually
available.
A DC system using one of Otmar's Z1K LV controllers could match the
power of this system with just a 72V pack. 60kW peak is 60V @ 1000A,
and 18kW is about 250A @ 72V. To match the capacity of the 336V pack,
the 72V pack needs a usable capacity of 93Ah; a set of T105s or US2200s
provides 140Ah @ 75A, so 93Ah represents about 65%DOD. A 72V set of
T105s/US2200s weighs about 800lbs. If one wanted to match the weight of
the 336V pack, one could move up to something like the Trojan J305H at
97lb each. This would result in a 72V pack rated 244Ah @ 75A and
weighing 1164lb. (Or, one could go up to a 108V string of the
T105/US2200s.)
With the same battery pack weight, and the same power capabilites, the
vehicle performance should be comparable. It seems to me that this
would be the basis for a fair comparison between drivetrain systems:
systems that result in vehicles that perform comparably.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am trying to determine what is limiting the current in an S10 with 9"
Advanced DC and DCP600 and 24 Trojan T-125
The 9" motor spec for 5 min. is 32.5kW. At my 144 V nominal battery
voltage, this would be 225 Amps.
The DCP600 spec is 600A max, 300A sustained.
If I wanted a car with quicker acceleration at higher speeds, would I
upgrade:
1) the controller to a higher rating (ex. DCP1200 or Zilla 1K)?
2) the motor to a different model (ex. I am only familiar with Advanced DC)
3) The battery is limiting current.
Driving example:
While at 50-60 mph in both 3rd or 4th gear, the emeter shows 150 Amps,
maybe 200 amps up hill. I can not pull anymore Amps with pedal to floor.
I would like, if possible, even an extra 150 Amps of acceleration.
Thanks for the help, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would one of you recommend a method of range extension to give a typically
60 miles range EV a 200 mile range?
I would assume a generator would be the first given solution. If so, is
there a quiet generator by make or model one of you has used when making a
long trip?
I estimate a need of 15 kW for continuous highway driving with a DC S10
setup.
I'm open to other economical ideas for the occasional range extension.
Would one venture that a Prius engine (out of a junkyard Prius) could be
used to generate the needed voltage and amps?
Take 2, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yes it is !
I already answered to Don by giving a link to AC propulsion powerpoint file
showing a picture of this racer.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "john bart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: Deka AGM vs. Sanyo D nicad (6000 nicad cells in a drag racer)
> I'm not sure if this is what your looking for, but heres the link
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=53
>
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/06 6:41:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> << Subj: RE: Deka AGM vs. Sanyo D nicad (6000 nicad cells in a drag racer)
> Date: 5/14/06 6:41:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Don Cameron)
> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
>
> Philippe, I looked on EVAlbum - do you have any further information on
this
> racer? I have looed on EVAlbum, Nedra and googled this without much luck.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> Sent: May 14, 2006 3:14 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Deka AGM vs. Sanyo D nicad
>
> if i recall correctly there is an EV drag racer which use (or had used)
6000
> nicad D cells. >>
> It may have been Ed Dempsy with the old world record streamliner car.(salt
> flats racer) Dennis Berube
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Feel free to call! Free PC-to-PC calls. Low rates on PC-to-Phone. Get
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
+1
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: NiMH working but Unavailable
> Is it just me, or do those cells seem kind of heavy and awfully expensive
> for what they offer?
>
> >> Selling prismatic NiMH cells, up to 100AH. A 12v 100AH battery would
> >> be about 40 lbs and $1600.
> >
> >
> > Actually, this is the right URL:
> >
> > http://www.powerstream.com/Ni-Prism.htm
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Free and easy answer: driving at 1/10 of 60 miles range speed :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:05 PM
Subject: range extension
> Would one of you recommend a method of range extension to give a typically
> 60 miles range EV a 200 mile range?
>
> I would assume a generator would be the first given solution. If so, is
> there a quiet generator by make or model one of you has used when making a
> long trip?
>
> I estimate a need of 15 kW for continuous highway driving with a DC S10
> setup.
>
> I'm open to other economical ideas for the occasional range extension.
> Would one venture that a Prius engine (out of a junkyard Prius) could be
> used to generate the needed voltage and amps?
>
> Take 2, Ben
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you talking of non english native people also ?
because i supose each time i post to EV list, majority should think i'm 10
years old, or 30 needing to go back to school, or a poor student or...
no, no, no i'm just a froggie guy other the pond which is learning english
every day so please, yes please, write it well :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:46 AM
Subject: OT: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
> Ken wrote:
>
> >In my opinion, you might want to consider adjusting your thinking or
> >you may be ignoring a significant portion of the populace that will
> >soon be a majority of those online (if they are not already).
>
> Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
> right. If you are going to have your name attached to a post forever
> in an archive, you might want to be sure it is worthy of archiving at
> all. I doubt any professors would accept a term paper in all
> lowercase. How about an all lowercase resume? Despite the
> prevalence of text messaging and other such abbreviated forms of
> communication, proper writing skills, sentence structure, and
> vocabulary are still important. You might also want to keep in mind
> that many folks reading the EVDL or the archives may not be native
> English speakers. Continuous run-on sentences do not translate well.
>
> If anyone submits an entry to the Album in all lowercase or all caps,
> it simply will never get approved, ever. Spelling errors I try to
> locate and correct but that is it.
>
> On the EV Tradin' Post I usually retype any incorrect entries. In
> that case it is usually folks who seem less familiar with the
> Internet and submit ads in all caps.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
I'd like to hear more, Juergen. I was thinking of something similar w/ the
spare C-Lyte motor I had. My problem was voltage. They'd allow 2 batts, when
I was looking at the rigs, but that was several years ago. I was one of the
fairly early adopters of this motor and, despite lots of probs, did manage
to get a bike assembled, albeit at a high cost.
Which motor did you use? What range/speed did you get on your run? What
battery set?
W/ the 400/500W motor, I manage to get about 25/20 out of the rig, on 800W
from the wall... somewhere around 850-1100MPG equivalency... w/o pedaling.
That's on 4 "old/new" Hawker 13S.
There is a limit on battery weight, not on number of batteries. I plan
on running 72V using an array or smaller 12V batteries.
Last year we ran a 406~409 motor in 406 mode in a 20" wheel. Speeds were
around 37km/h for most of the hour. It should have been higher (around
42km/h predicted for 48V) but we had a voltage sag of a couple of volts
due to two weaker batteries in the array. The power meter showed around
700-750W consumption for most conditions. We came in around 37km total
for the hour.
This year I will be running the same vehicle (modified) using a 405
motor at 72V.
Batteries - age and condition will make a big difference. Aerodynamics
are obviously important too and will be improved over the next few days.
Juergen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peut-être nous devrions faire quelqu'un faisons un poteau en français
pour voir comment ils survivraient?!?!?
;)
On May 23, 2006, at 9:19 PM, Philippe Borges wrote:
Are you talking of non english native people also ?
because i supose each time i post to EV list, majority should think
i'm 10
years old, or 30 needing to go back to school, or a poor student or...
no, no, no i'm just a froggie guy other the pond which is learning
english
every day so please, yes please, write it well :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:46 AM
Subject: OT: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
Ken wrote:
In my opinion, you might want to consider adjusting your thinking or
you may be ignoring a significant portion of the populace that will
soon be a majority of those online (if they are not already).
Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
right. If you are going to have your name attached to a post forever
in an archive, you might want to be sure it is worthy of archiving at
all. I doubt any professors would accept a term paper in all
lowercase. How about an all lowercase resume? Despite the
prevalence of text messaging and other such abbreviated forms of
communication, proper writing skills, sentence structure, and
vocabulary are still important. You might also want to keep in mind
that many folks reading the EVDL or the archives may not be native
English speakers. Continuous run-on sentences do not translate well.
If anyone submits an entry to the Album in all lowercase or all caps,
it simply will never get approved, ever. Spelling errors I try to
locate and correct but that is it.
On the EV Tradin' Post I usually retype any incorrect entries. In
that case it is usually folks who seem less familiar with the
Internet and submit ads in all caps.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
> Peut-être nous devrions faire quelqu'un faisons un poteau en français
> pour voir comment ils survivraient?!?!?
>
> ;)
>
>
> On May 23, 2006, at 9:19 PM, Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> > Are you talking of non english native people also ?
> > because i supose each time i post to EV list, majority should think
> > i'm 10
> > years old, or 30 needing to go back to school, or a poor student or...
> > no, no, no i'm just a froggie guy other the pond which is learning
> > english
> > every day so please, yes please, write it well :^)
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:46 AM
> > Subject: OT: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
> >
> >
> >> Ken wrote:
> >>
> >>> In my opinion, you might want to consider adjusting your thinking or
> >>> you may be ignoring a significant portion of the populace that will
> >>> soon be a majority of those online (if they are not already).
> >>
> >> Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
> >> right. If you are going to have your name attached to a post forever
> >> in an archive, you might want to be sure it is worthy of archiving at
> >> all. I doubt any professors would accept a term paper in all
> >> lowercase. How about an all lowercase resume? Despite the
> >> prevalence of text messaging and other such abbreviated forms of
> >> communication, proper writing skills, sentence structure, and
> >> vocabulary are still important. You might also want to keep in mind
> >> that many folks reading the EVDL or the archives may not be native
> >> English speakers. Continuous run-on sentences do not translate well.
> >>
> >> If anyone submits an entry to the Album in all lowercase or all caps,
> >> it simply will never get approved, ever. Spelling errors I try to
> >> locate and correct but that is it.
> >>
> >> On the EV Tradin' Post I usually retype any incorrect entries. In
> >> that case it is usually folks who seem less familiar with the
> >> Internet and submit ads in all caps.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Chancey,
> >> '88 Civic EV
> >> Kansas City, Missouri
> >> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> >> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> >> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> >> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
> >>
> >> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> >> position. (Horace)
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ben,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am trying to determine what is limiting the current in an S10 with 9"
Advanced DC and DCP600 and 24 Trojan T-125 -snip-
While at 50-60 mph in both 3rd or 4th gear, the emeter shows 150 Amps,
maybe 200 amps up hill. I can not pull anymore Amps with pedal to floor.
I'll assume the 150-200 Amps you're seeing is in the battery loop. Your
motor speed controller, like most, uses a Pulse Width Modulation (PWM)
buck converter to control motor speed and power.
What is most likely happening is that when you accelerate, the motor is
trying to draw a lot of current from the controller, and the controller
immediately goes into current limit to prevent self-destruction. So you
hit the 600A limit in the motor loop... but you only see ~200 Amps in
the battery loop because the controller is at a low PWM duty cycle
during this time (due to the current limit). Low duty cycles will
usually cause the motor loop to see lower voltage and higher current
flow then the battery loop. This is the inherent operation of a buck
converter.
The only easy way you can get the controller to increase its duty cycle
would be to downshift to a lower gear to force the motor to speed up and
draw less current... but this is counter-productive to your goal because
the motor would then be producing less torque.
So to get more power and better performance from the truck, you'll
likely need to upgrade your controller to one with a higher current
rating. The Zilla is a great choice :-)
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi guys.
I just wanted to point out that it's not always just being lazy why
we don't capitalize. I have RSI, a tendinitis on both wrist areas,
that makes it hard to do a lot of caps.
a hand surgeon pointed out the poor ergo's of using pinkies to cap, I
changed to almost no caps, and I manage to limp along on keyboards.
sometimes i'm putting extra returns to set off sentences, but I don't
do it do be different or lazy.
maybe some people are hunt and peck typers, or disabled and one
handed. does it really make that much difference? I do know that
all caps bothers me, and besides seeming like yelling at you, studies
have shown that it slows down one's reading significantly.
thanks for not ignoring my mostly lower case posts.
elaine
berkeley, CA
'76 citicar and '86 converted pickup truck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 10:21:19PM +0200, Philippe Borges wrote:
> yes it is !
> I already answered to Don by giving a link to AC propulsion powerpoint file
> showing a picture of this racer.
Why do these types of vehicles use AC motors?
The outcome of our earlier discussion seems to indicate that DC is better
for brute force power output, yet cars fighting for the title of "fastest
production car" and going for the EV land speed record are AC.
There must be more advantages to AC then we've uncovered.
I'm thinking of the Wrightspeed, Venturi Fetish, etc.
Just food for thought.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the way to work today, the zilla cut out. I backed the EV of my
driveway, went forward and there was a shock(drive line rang). I
assumed this was the tires slipping where they got wet, but when I got
to the stop sign a block away, she shut down. I found the error light
on, cycled the main and drove 1/2 block, it shut down again. After that,
5 seconds was all it will run. I got out the notebook out and interfaced
to the hairball and am getting 1122, desat error.
I have put in a message to Otmar to see what he says but was wondering
if anyone has run accross this before.
My fears are that a mosfet is sticking on and the hairball is dropping
out the main contactor.
Do mosfets do this? fine until some current goes thru them, then get
stuck on?
Can I set a battery on the seat and use jumper cables to get her that
block home? Do I need to disconnect the zilla when doing this?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
We call ur company"electric blue", that is a fine color for a good high
intensity spark.Its also the color of my S-10. Electric blue,,bright as ever
and I put more silver flake in the mix, and 6 coats of clear coat,,on the back
trail gate is large chrome letters "electric blue".. front frnders have
Electric Power in chrome really stands out,,we also did 4 other trucks the same
way.seems people like that color. cept one girl that wanted HOT pink...My
husband didnt even want to mix that color,,but cash is cash.But decieding on
a good color to make it stand out in a pack of other cars/truck is a hard
choice.. Sharon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
HV to HV seem apples to apples to me. HV AC compared to LV DC is
not quite the same, even though LV DC still makes more raw power.
Victor, could you elaborate on what the benefits are that a customer
gets (from AC or DC systems) that are purely associated with the
traction pack voltage?
Roger,
As you know (mostly info for newbies),
The advantage of the high voltage is wide RPM range.
The more voltage - the higher RPM before constant
torque turns into a constant power.
This equally applies to AC or DC.
Problem is, no one makes DC traction motors handling
10k-12k RPM so you must shift. You may find advantageous
to shift with high RPM AC motor, but you don't really
have to.
Practically for the driver this translates to covering
all driving speeds on one gear, no need to shift.
One can (and Otmar probably will) argue that it's no
big deal to shift, that the gear box comes for free,
that you can put giant controller in a current limit and
start off on 4th gear (if nothing breaks), etc.
All, correct, but it's not the point. You ask me what you
can do with high voltage and AC motor and this is the answer.
You cannot do it with a DC motor.
As far as putting battery pack together, this also means
thinner cables small, lugs. So no as much I^R losses. Granted,
you can pick thicker cable, but the issue with tightening
the lugs remains. For lead batteries, lead creepage is the
problem, and tightening to handle 50A is not as demanding
ans for 200A. Sure you will need more jumpers, but each is far
easier to bend and work with. The battery itself (which isn't
part of the drive system hardware) cost ~the same for the same
kWh rating. Instead of connecting all in series you do buddy
pairs, so the same amount of lead.
Low current is also far easier on the batteries, but for given
power it stay the same (per battery) buddy pair or not.
It just handling smaller ones is easier than if you'd have
single double-capacity batteries. Personally, I'd rather
install 26 40 lb batteries than 13 80 lb ones.
The fact that you can use low cost flooded batteries now is
*totally irrelevant* - it is not a comparison we're
trying to do - you don't get the same battery and the same
performance.
Flooded battery sure may satisfy particular driver's need
(I never debated that), but you get want you paid for.
Overall, as I see it, if and OEM AC and DC system of the same
power would cost the same, most everyone would choose OEM AC one.
Few people I know who have done it both ways told me they
won't build DC cars anymore. I'm yet to hear anyone who tried
an AC system and regret the decision and wont to go back to DC one.
This alone means to me AC is overall technically more superior
(for normal EV and for most average users).
Welcome to debate this, I'll stay out :-) My mind is firmly set.
Now, of course that superiority MUST have premium attached
to it, and *then* it may or may not worth that premium
for particular person or application.
Did I answer your question about high voltage thing?
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different.
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--- Begin Message ---
Greetings,
Have any of you RAV4 EV owners needed vehicle maintenece other than
batteries, brakes, expected wear and tear? In particular any maintenace
on the electric drive system. Also how long have the batteries been
lasting?
VR,
Steven Arlint
--
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--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Would one of you recommend a method of range extension to give a
> typically 60 miles range EV a 200 mile range?
To make this practical, there are a few factors to consider.
First, most EV motors and controllers are not sized for continuous duty.
Since the batteries would be dead in less than an hour at freeway
speeds, you can use an undersized motor and controller to save money and
weight. They won't have time to overheat before the batteries go dead.
But if you add a generator, you can drive essentially continuously. You
may need a bigger motor and controller, or at least a better cooling
system to drive for hours at a time.
The next concern is how fast you want to drive, and for how long. To
drive "continuously" (no battery discharge), the generator needs to
supply 100% of the horsepower the vehicle needs at the speed you are
driving. If it takes 20kw at 60 mph, then you need at least a 20kw
generator (more when you take inefficiencies into account).
If you only want to extend the range, the generator can be smaller. You
said you want to make a 60-mile range EV become a 200-mile range EV.
Let's say you want to drive at 60 mph. 60 miles takes 1 hour. 20kw for 1
hour is 20kwh, so you have a 20kwh pack.
200 miles at 60 mph takes 200/60 = 3.33 hours. At 20kwh/hour, you need a
total of 20kw x 3.33h = 66.66 kwh. 20kw of this can come from the
batteries (you are discharging them over 3.33 hours). That means 66.66 -
20 = 46.66kwh must come from the generator over that 3.33 hours. That's
46.66kwh / 3.33h = 14kw. The generator needs to supply only 14kw, not
20kw when the batteries are also being discharged.
If you drive slower, you need less power, and the generator can be
smaller yet.
> If so, is there a quiet generator by make or model one of you has used
> when making a long trip?
As a rule, most cheap generators are very noisy, inefficient, don't last
long, and very dirty (air pollution wise). But there are good ones, if
you are willing to pay more. Overhead valve engines are better than the
1930's style lawnmower engines. The Hondas are quieter than most.
A small car engine would probably be the cleanest, quietest solution. A
Prius engine would be nice, but is pretty complicated and likely to be
expensive.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> The advantage of the high voltage is wide RPM range.
> The more voltage - the higher RPM before constant
> torque turns into a constant power.
>
> This equally applies to AC or DC.
I disagree that this is an advantage of high voltage. It is merely a
question of what voltage the motor was designed for. If you want to use
a motor that was designed to develop full speed speed when fed high
voltage, then you can only get that wide RPM range by feeding it high
voltage. However, there is nothing preventing a motor designed to
deliver full speed on a lower voltage from offering the same top speed
as one designed for operation on higher voltage.
Indeed, in the DC case I think you would find that a series motor
designed for 48V operation will have the same RPM range as one designed
for operation on 120V.
Likewise, there is no reason that a 72V or 80V AC motor cannot achive
the same 10-12K RPM as the 336V AC motor.
Now, it is certainly true that for a given motor, the higher the
traction pack voltage, the longer the controller will be able to remain
in current limit and sustain the constant torque mode of operation.
However, it is equally true that for any pack voltage one can simply use
a motor of suitably lower voltage to achieve constant torque operation
out to the same speed.
> Problem is, no one makes DC traction motors handling
> 10k-12k RPM so you must shift. You may find advantageous
> to shift with high RPM AC motor, but you don't really
> have to.
Being able to eliminate the need to shift might well be considered a
benefit, but again, I don't see this as being a result of using a high
voltage traction pack. I think you are making the mistake of assuming
that a motor can only achieve 10-12K RPM if it is fed high voltage, and
that a motor must be capable of 10-12K RPM to avoid the need to shift.
I think it still comes down to a simple matter of power. A given
vehicle requires a certain amount of power to move at a given speed or
to accelerate at a given rate. If I can satisfy the vehicle's power
requirements with a fixed reduction and an AC motor that spins at 10-12K
at the vehicle's top speed, then I can equally well satisfy the
requirements with a DC motor that spins to 5-6k RPM at the vheicle's top
speed by using a suitable fixed ratio and a controller than allows the
motor to develop the required torque at low speed.
> All, correct, but it's not the point. You ask me what you
> can do with high voltage and AC motor and this is the answer.
> You cannot do it with a DC motor.
No, actually, I asked what the inherent advantage of using a high
voltage traction pack is, in your view. I didn't ask about AC or DC
motors.
And, as I have explained above, your reasoning is flawed. To achieve
the stated benefit of a wide motor speed operating range requires that
the battery pack voltage be chosen appropriately for the motor; it does
not require high voltage unless one chooses to use a motor designed only
for high voltage operation.
> As far as putting battery pack together, this also means
> thinner cables small, lugs. So no as much I^R losses.
Actually, it has been explained before that the I^R losses don't drop as
much as one would intuitively expect because one downsizes to smaller
(higher resistance) cables at the same time as reducing the drive
current.
Most of the traction wiring resistance is in the connections, and if I
double my pack voltage, I double the number of connections, no matter
what I do with the cable size.
> Granted,
> you can pick thicker cable, but the issue with tightening
> the lugs remains. For lead batteries, lead creepage is the
> problem, and tightening to handle 50A is not as demanding
> ans for 200A.
Are you assuming a particular style of connector? It is common for
sealed lead-acid batteries to have threaded insert type terminals that
are not lead and do not suffer this problem.
> Sure you will need more jumpers, but each is far
> easier to bend and work with.
Yes, I agree.
> The battery itself (which isn't
> part of the drive system hardware) cost ~the same for the same
> kWh rating. Instead of connecting all in series you do buddy
> pairs, so the same amount of lead.
Again, you are assuming that the same battery is going to be used in
either system, and that is not at all a safe or reasonable assumption.
The limiting factor when building a vehicle is usually how much traction
battery weight can be tolerated. If my drive system choice requires me
to use a 336V battery, I am forced to use smaller batteries to keep the
total weight within bounds. Smaller batteries usually means AGMs, if I
am using lead acid, and a 336V string of AGMs will most certainly cost
me more than an equivalent capacity string of flooded lead acid.
If I am building a low voltage traction pack, I may well prefer to use
flooded lead acid batteries due to their lower cost and simpler charging
requirements.
At the end of the day, the only requirement if I want to compare a high
voltage and low voltage system is that both systems deliver similar
range and life.
> Low current is also far easier on the batteries, but for given
> power it stay the same (per battery) buddy pair or not.
Right; it is a non-issue. Lower current is just as hard on the smaller
batteries as the higher current is on the larger (or buddy-paired) ones.
> It just handling smaller ones is easier than if you'd have
> single double-capacity batteries. Personally, I'd rather
> install 26 40 lb batteries than 13 80 lb ones.
This is personal preference, not an inherent technical advantage or
disadvantage of the traction pack voltage. I think there are many who
would find it quite acceptable to find a way around this if it means
saving $1000 or more on the cost of the battery.
> The fact that you can use low cost flooded batteries now is
> *totally irrelevant* - it is not a comparison we're
> trying to do - you don't get the same battery and the same
> performance.
I'm happy to simply agree that you don't want to consider the battery
pack at all, however, the ability of a low voltage system (AC or DC) to
use flooded batteries is most certainly relevant. The fact that having
the option of using a greater range of batteries is an inherent
advantage of the low voltage system might not be something you want to
acknowledge however... ;^>
If the battery delivers the same kWh and allows the same peak and
continuous power, and lasts for a similar number fo cycles, what
performance are you not getting from a flooded pack?
> Overall, as I see it, if and OEM AC and DC system of the same
> power would cost the same, most everyone would choose OEM AC one.
Yes, I think I would agree. At the present time it means that an AC
system would have to be cost competitive with a Curtis-based system,
since a Curtis DC controller is pretty close to allowing the same power
levels.
> Few people I know who have done it both ways told me they
> won't build DC cars anymore. I'm yet to hear anyone who tried
> an AC system and regret the decision and wont to go back to DC one.
Well, I don't presume to speak for Al, but I have heard him remark on
occasion that his AC drive Porsche lacks the acceleration, especially at
low speeds, of his previous DC Porsche. And this is about as close a
comparison as you can get drivetrain wise: the DC Porsche used a 144V
string of buddy-paired YTs and a 600A controller. The AC Porsche uses a
string of 25 Optimas. The touted wide RPM range of the AC motor is
proving to be of little benefit in this case - the tranny was locked in
2nd gear, but this provided inadequate performance. Presumably 1st gear
would not allow sufficient speed as Al has ended up replacing the manual
tranny with an auto to restore the ability to start in 1st gear and
shift to 2nd.
So, perhaps we need to temper the wide RPM range allowing the shift-free
benefit with the caveat that this is a theoretical benefit that may not
realisable in practice unless one has the ability to configure the car
with the optimum fixed reduction ratio.
> Did I answer your question about high voltage thing?
Yes and no. ;^> I think I do understand what you had in mind now, but
as I've explained above, I think your reasoning is flawed.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben wrote:
> If I wanted a car with quicker acceleration at higher speeds, would I
> upgrade:
> 1) the controller to a higher rating (ex. DCP1200 or Zilla 1K)?
If you decide to upgrade, don't stop short of the Z1K. The DCP is a
fine controller, but is no longer in production and ultimately its 156V
maximum could prove limiting.
> 2) the motor to a different model (ex. I am only familiar
> with Advanced DC)
The motor is fine (though some might consider it to be marginal in a
vehicle of this weight). If you were going to upgrade here, one thought
would be to add another 9" and take advantage of the Z1K's
series/parallel capabilities. About your only other DC option is would
be one of Warfield's larger offerings (11", 13").
> 3) The battery is limiting current.
Ultimately, the battery may be the weakest link. At higher speeds the
controller runs at higher duty cycles and so the battery and motor loop
currents are more nearly equal. You need a battery that can supply the
required current without sagging too low in voltage to develop the
required motor RPM.
> Driving example:
> While at 50-60 mph in both 3rd or 4th gear, the emeter shows 150 Amps,
> maybe 200 amps up hill. I can not pull anymore Amps with pedal to
> floor.
What is the pack voltage sagging to while you are drawing 150-200A?
When accelerating at lower speeds, do the DCP's LEDs indicate wide open
throttle/current limit? What is the maximum current you can ever see on
the meter when accelerating from a stop? Are you sure your controller
current limit is not turned down?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
I have been trying to do some research into converting a new Toyota
Highlander Hybrid to a PHEV. I have seen a lot of info out there on the
Prius kits and kits for the Ford Escapes, but have not been able to find
anything on the Highlander.
Has anyone converted a Highlander to PHEV yet? Are there any companies such
as EnergyCS working on one?
Even though the overall range of the Highlander in "EV-only" mode would be
relatively short, the goal would be to be able to drive the vehicle to the
local stores and around the community, but be able to switch over when
needing to go further.
Is there a technical reason that the Highlander could not deploy the same
technology and conversion kits as the Prius? Is it more difficult to
implement or is it simply that the fact that the Highlander is newer to the
market?
Thanks in advance,
Shawn Waggoner
Florida EAA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess a list has to fall in line with the list admin's guidelines.
In view of this :
> Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
> right.
I think proper capitalisation and punctuation will need to be followed .
This will be tough on people who have fallen into a habit of 'only smalls'
But, if you want to be here, better hear ! ;-)
peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: OT: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
> Ken wrote:
>
> >In my opinion, you might want to consider adjusting your thinking or
> >you may be ignoring a significant portion of the populace that will
> >soon be a majority of those online (if they are not already).
>
> Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
> right. If you are going to have your name attached to a post forever
> in an archive, you might want to be sure it is worthy of archiving at
> all. I doubt any professors would accept a term paper in all
> lowercase. How about an all lowercase resume? Despite the
> prevalence of text messaging and other such abbreviated forms of
> communication, proper writing skills, sentence structure, and
> vocabulary are still important. You might also want to keep in mind
> that many folks reading the EVDL or the archives may not be native
> English speakers. Continuous run-on sentences do not translate well.
>
> If anyone submits an entry to the Album in all lowercase or all caps,
> it simply will never get approved, ever. Spelling errors I try to
> locate and correct but that is it.
>
> On the EV Tradin' Post I usually retype any incorrect entries. In
> that case it is usually folks who seem less familiar with the
> Internet and submit ads in all caps.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date: 19/05/2006
>
>
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