EV Digest 5520
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A NEW (old) one
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Limiting Current in DC setup
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: range extension
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: RAV4 EV maintainence
by Arthur Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: range extension
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: RAV4 EV maintainence
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: range extension
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [OT] Re: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization .. to hear to
be here
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ADC 6.7-inch Voltage Limit
by "Electric Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Hi voltage impact (Re: AC vs. DC)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: RAV4 EV maintainence
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Limiting Current in DC setup
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: range extension
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: range extension
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Three-wheel Go-cart
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Interesting bit of RAV4 EV trivia if true
by Arne Magnus Berge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) AC vs. DC & Direct Drive
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Questions about EVT scooters
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: range extension
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Limiting Current in DC setup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
Sorry to hear the sad story of the Lead Sled. On the bright side you OK.
I was looking foward to more burn outs like the in Ill. and maybe at the Power
of DC. No rabbit drags between us (sad face). Hope to see you at Power of DC.
Robert Salem
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Being EV less sucks! Been trying to do something about that, of late.
> Dragged the Nissan Sentra that I have had for a few years, the one I bought
> in NYC awile back. Well, when I got it it DID run. but that was a long time
> ago in EV years? Pulled it ort least tried, by hand, push, took the full
> first gear to MOVE the damn car! The rusty Disc brakes didn't help. Jacked
> the front end up, pulled the wheels and pried the disc calipers off, well the
> left side probably will hafta replace, as it took a C clamp and hammer to
> free that one. Right side turned easy! Surprise! Car will roll, now, off to a
> good start.Today building a battery rack in back, it fits 10 batteries, will
> drop neatly between the frame rails, so I'll have a trunk, albiet shallow.
> Those old Sentra's are nice an' boxy to fit batteries into. The front in the
> air, figgured I'd try the motor. Clip leads to a 12 volt battery, this
> should have produced a motor run? Huh? Nothin! Not EVen a Zap, when you
> connect the l!
> ead. So left it hooked up and, in gear, spun the wheel by hand. Ahhh! THERE
> it goes! Hmmm aren't motors SUPPOSED to start on their own? This one didn't,
> and when it ran, sounded like a coffee grinder, lottsa brush noise!. Brushes
> looked good, BLACK com. Shit! Gunna hafta pull the motor, get the comm
> turned. Hope the comm is still good? My guess that they lugged the motor in
> Hi gear too much, but with a Cursit controller, the ride must have been SLOW!
> Car was driven/ owned last by the family of the guy that built it and died.
> So it was driven to death, when the range gave way, they got rid of it. Hope
> they didn't kill the motor, too. Batteries gave you about a 3 mile ride, when
> I got it.Pretty hard to kill the motor on that. On the plus side the clutch
> and tranny shifted smoothly.
>
> Atfirst I thought I might have something for Power of DC, but I'm not
> holding my breath.So that's that. Maybe Dave Cover will get his hub welded
> and be up an' running before me?
>
> Seeya at "DC"
>
> Bob, with or without a car.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> While at 50-60 mph in both 3rd or 4th gear, the emeter shows 150 Amps,
> maybe 200 amps up hill. I can not pull anymore Amps with pedal to floor.
> I would like, if possible, even an extra 150 Amps of acceleration.
Someone recently had a problem with their accelerator pot and when it was
adjusted to actuate through a greater range it gave them a whole lot more
power. The input to the controller was the problem.
Regards,
Chet
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--- Begin Message ---
Be careful to give appropriate consideration to your goals here.
The math I did before suggested that even a high quality 4-stroke Honda
inverter genny would probably take more gas than the original engine
would have. And with no electronically controlled fuel system or
catalytic converter then the emissions per gallon will inevitably make
it one of the dirtiest vehicles ever made since the 70's. I know
there's the positive side of being able to run on electric power for a
limited number of those miles, which is great of course, but the genny
miles are pretty heinous on the air quality front and very questionable
on the gasoline usage front. Simply having an engine and an electric
motor usually does not imbue it with the much revered qualities we
associate with a "Hybrid" vehicle, quite the opposite is in fact likely.
Capstone Microturbine is an interesting option though, they show up on
eBay every once in a while since a fleet of hybrid buses got scrapped.
The emissions are supposed to be good, they have a very powerful
integrated DC generator, they can have a remarkably efficient conversion
of fuel BTU to electricity, and can run on cooking oil or in fact quite
a few things that burn. Still, integrating it into a system (or even
getting ahold of one) is no picnic.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Would one of you recommend a method of range extension to give a typically
60 miles range EV a 200 mile range?
I would assume a generator would be the first given solution. If so, is
there a quiet generator by make or model one of you has used when making a
long trip?
I estimate a need of 15 kW for continuous highway driving with a DC S10
setup.
I'm open to other economical ideas for the occasional range extension.
Would one venture that a Prius engine (out of a junkyard Prius) could be
used to generate the needed voltage and amps?
Take 2, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi steven, we have about 43K miles on ours,
we changed the brake pads at around 30K because
they were squeaking. so far, _nothing_ else has
gone wrong. the batteries are as strong as ever...
i'm on the rav4 ev mailing list too, some of the
issues that have come up for other drivers:
o the charger port fan frequently fails.
a cheap replacement fan (~$20) can be used, or toyota
will replace it for only $3k (no kidding).
o the charger port cover is "hooked", you can only open
it from a special button on the dash, many have
chosen to use a magnet instead of the hook.
o there has been a report of ABS not working
o many other things that i prob missed as i don't
keep a very close eye on the list (it is commonly
off-topic)...
arthur
On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 03:53:04PM -0800, Steve Arlint wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Have any of you RAV4 EV owners needed vehicle maintenece other than
> batteries, brakes, expected wear and tear? In particular any maintenace
> on the electric drive system. Also how long have the batteries been
> lasting?
>
> VR,
>
> Steven Arlint
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 May 2006 at 15:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Would one of you recommend a method of range extension to give a typically 60
> miles range EV a 200 mile range?
It's very challenging - almost impossible - to build an APU (supplemental
genset) that will be as quiet, clean, and economical as a well-designed
modern ICE vehicle. If you have need for 200 mile range once or twice a
year, it may be most practical rent an ICE vehicle for those trips. If it's
a regular need, I suggest that you either supplement your EV with an ICE, or
give up the EV entirely in favor of a gas-only "hybrid" car.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
> hi steven, we have about 43K miles on ours,
> we changed the brake pads at around 30K because
> they were squeaking. so far, _nothing_ else has
> gone wrong. the batteries are as strong as ever...
>
My NiMH Ranger went back to Ford with 35K mi and no change in brake
quality, and my ICE RAV4 didn't need new brakes until over 60K mi, so
why does a vehicle with regen have so much brake wear? I asked the
seller of a RAV4 EV (the one that went for $52K) about whether he
relied on regen or used the regular brakes a lot, but didn't get a reply.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An idea that's been in the back of my head. Why not a range extending battery
trailer? I know someone has had to have tried this before, but I've never ran
across it. You could build a trailer which carries a lot of lead, ballance it
out so it's not a huge tougue weight on the car, and then you could put trailer
brakes on it so it's not overloading the vehicles brakes. Granted that would be
a lot of batteries for 200 miles worth of range.
Thoughts?
David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 23 May 2006 at 15:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Would one of you recommend a method of range extension to give a typically 60
> miles range EV a 200 mile range?
It's very challenging - almost impossible - to build an APU (supplemental
genset) that will be as quiet, clean, and economical as a well-designed
modern ICE vehicle. If you have need for 200 mile range once or twice a
year, it may be most practical rent an ICE vehicle for those trips. If it's
a regular need, I suggest that you either supplement your EV with an ICE, or
give up the EV entirely in favor of a gas-only "hybrid" car.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
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--- Begin Message ---
After being an EVer for little more then a year (and I am very happy with
my lead sleds I might add) I would like to offer some suggestions to the
EV suppliers as most compete with pretty much the same products (Not you
Victor, I know ;). Now - I want to add the fact that I am not the kind of
person that re-winds generators or enjoys hardcore construction. I know my
way around Evs by now, but leave metal working to people that know how.
I would like to see/buy some pre-configured a/c compressors or complete
systems (i.e. like an aftermarket vintage air system, modified for ev use)
that only need to be installed and hooked up to the system voltage.
I would like to see/buy a regen system that would come with a small
generator or modified alternator and all the supplies I would need to hook
up to the auxiliary shaft of my motor.
I would like to see/buy a range extending generator directly generating
the dc juice in a way that I would only have to hook it up to my
batteries.
I would like to see/buy a (configurable) converter that would allow me to
use my dash board instruments i.e. for state of charge.
There might of course be some company offering those products that I am
not aware off, so please excuse my lack of knowledge. Please don't point
me to a/c propulsion. I am not talking about some fancy super system but
stuff one can really buy, use and afford.
Just a few ideas.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am the one that started this OT thread. I am sorry if I have wasted
bandwidth on this topic.
You guessed it. English is not my first language. It is not even my
second, third, or even forth language. It is my fifth. So, I hope you all
understand that it is truly painful for me to read posts with all small
letters.
On 5/23/06, peekay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I guess a list has to fall in line with the list admin's guidelines.
In view of this :
> Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
> right.
I think proper capitalisation and punctuation will need to be followed .
This will be tough on people who have fallen into a habit of 'only smalls'
But, if you want to be here, better hear ! ;-)
peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: OT: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
> Ken wrote:
>
> >In my opinion, you might want to consider adjusting your thinking or
> >you may be ignoring a significant portion of the populace that will
> >soon be a majority of those online (if they are not already).
>
> Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
> right. If you are going to have your name attached to a post forever
> in an archive, you might want to be sure it is worthy of archiving at
> all. I doubt any professors would accept a term paper in all
> lowercase. How about an all lowercase resume? Despite the
> prevalence of text messaging and other such abbreviated forms of
> communication, proper writing skills, sentence structure, and
> vocabulary are still important. You might also want to keep in mind
> that many folks reading the EVDL or the archives may not be native
> English speakers. Continuous run-on sentences do not translate well.
>
> If anyone submits an entry to the Album in all lowercase or all caps,
> it simply will never get approved, ever. Spelling errors I try to
> locate and correct but that is it.
>
> On the EV Tradin' Post I usually retype any incorrect entries. In
> that case it is usually folks who seem less familiar with the
> Internet and submit ads in all caps.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
>
> --
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Jr. dragsters run this motor at up to 144V, and I have used it at 120V with
reasonable success. Do you know how many bars in the commutator? How heavy
is the vehicle? Controller current limit?
I would advance the timing to bout 10 degrees for reduced brush arcing.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:15 AM
Subject: ADC 6.7-inch Voltage Limit
> I know that folks often run the ADC motors above their voltage rating.
> Anyone know what the max safe voltage to push the ADC 6.7-inch, 72V motor
> is?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
The advantage of the high voltage is wide RPM range.
The more voltage - the higher RPM before constant
torque turns into a constant power.
This equally applies to AC or DC.
I disagree that this is an advantage of high voltage. It is merely a
question of what voltage the motor was designed for.
I agree. I meant the motor we can actually get and install.
In theory, yes, any motor can be wound for any voltage.
I don't think your question was theoretical though, but may be I
have wrong assumption.
If you want to use
a motor that was designed to develop full speed speed when fed high
voltage, then you can only get that wide RPM range by feeding it high
voltage. However, there is nothing preventing a motor designed to
deliver full speed on a lower voltage from offering the same top speed
as one designed for operation on higher voltage.
Hi RPM DC motors (regardless of the voltage) have commutator
arcing problem (aside that it can fly apart). So yes, in theory
IF it is strong enough and IF commutator issues can be ignored,
than yes, there is no difference. Care to make such a DC motor? ;-)
Also, don't forget back EMF. At low voltage it is low too, and if
you want to make appreciable torque at hi RPM you must feed in
voltage exceeding back EMF. So high RPM pretty much dictates high(er)
voltage. 'Course, all this relative. Motor designed for 2V will spin
VERY fast at 12V, and 12V is of course low voltage (for common
definition, not for that poor motor...)
Indeed, in the DC case I think you would find that a series motor
designed for 48V operation will have the same RPM range as one designed
for operation on 120V.
Likewise, there is no reason that a 72V or 80V AC motor cannot achive
the same 10-12K RPM as the 336V AC motor.
There is good reason, see above. Else we'd all have such a motors.
Can you name me at least one suitable for EV model (say, 20-30kW rated)
capable of spinning at 10k RPM (and make meaningful torque up there, not
just spin)? I'd love to learn.
Now, it is certainly true that for a given motor, the higher the
traction pack voltage, the longer the controller will be able to remain
in current limit and sustain the constant torque mode of operation.
However, it is equally true that for any pack voltage one can simply use
a motor of suitably lower voltage to achieve constant torque operation
out to the same speed.
Again, in theory. Unfortunately physical limitations of the
commutator (and wire wound rotating armature, but I don't
know about that one) become dominating factor at about >6k RPM
Then, again, that back EMF. It won't be much if inductance is low,
but then it's not a very good motor.
Being able to eliminate the need to shift might well be considered a
benefit, but again, I don't see this as being a result of using a high
voltage traction pack. I think you are making the mistake of assuming
that a motor can only achieve 10-12K RPM if it is fed high voltage, and
that a motor must be capable of 10-12K RPM to avoid the need to shift.
No, I'm not making mistake. I realize, a low voltage motor can be wound
to achieve very high RPM (dental machines tiny DC motors are 8V and
some 100,000 RPM for example) and if giant torque is available than
driving on 4th gear at all times allows to cover freeway speed at
still modest RPM.
It is not practically done because your clutch will most likely
slip or 4th gear break if you want decent acceleration from
start. So to avoid such problems and use modest motor torque
and gear box multiplication, 2nd gear (AC motors) is used.
ACP's CRX used 1st, EV1 used something between 1st and 2nd
ratio, so does tzero. They all could have picked lower RPM and
taller gear, but they didn't. And high RPM while works at
low voltage
I think it still comes down to a simple matter of power. A given
vehicle requires a certain amount of power to move at a given speed or
to accelerate at a given rate. If I can satisfy the vehicle's power
requirements with a fixed reduction and an AC motor that spins at 10-12K
at the vehicle's top speed, then I can equally well satisfy the
requirements with a DC motor that spins to 5-6k RPM at the vheicle's top
speed by using a suitable fixed ratio and a controller than allows the
motor to develop the required torque at low speed.
Totally agree. Please show me such a motor, controller, and
mainly a rear box handling all this. Sorry, White Zombie does
not count.
No, actually, I asked what the inherent advantage of using a high
voltage traction pack is, in your view. I didn't ask about AC or DC
motors.
There is no *inherent* advantage. There is only practical one.
Again, as you said, power level dictates it all.
Low voltage Siemens inverter (72-144V) run the AC motor which has
6,400 RPM limit. One sure could re-make such a motor to spin
at 12,800 RPM but it wasn't done so far. Not because inherent
limitations, it's just make no sense from the design point of
view to stick to a low voltage while trying to achieve better
performance.
And, as I have explained above, your reasoning is flawed.
Sorry, may be I did not express myself clearly, but I understand
your comments and agree with you.
Actually, it has been explained before that the I^R losses don't drop as
much as one would intuitively expect because one downsizes to smaller
(higher resistance) cables at the same time as reducing the drive
current.
If you downside it proportionally, yes, but you don't have to.
Most of the traction wiring resistance is in the connections, and if I
double my pack voltage, I double the number of connections, no matter
what I do with the cable size.
Agreed here.
Are you assuming a particular style of connector?
I was assuming regular automotive "cone" post.
It is common for
sealed lead-acid batteries to have threaded insert type terminals that
are not lead and do not suffer this problem.
Then there is no issue.
Again, you are assuming that the same battery is going to be used in
either system, and that is not at all a safe or reasonable assumption.
I put the same battery for the sake of comparison eliminating one
more variable. "Course, practically battery may not be the same for
hi and lo voltage systems.
The limiting factor when building a vehicle is usually how much traction
battery weight can be tolerated. If my drive system choice requires me
to use a 336V battery, I am forced to use smaller batteries to keep the
total weight within bounds. Smaller batteries usually means AGMs, if I
am using lead acid, and a 336V string of AGMs will most certainly cost
me more than an equivalent capacity string of flooded lead acid.
Agree, but you're not comparing apples to apples. For instance nothing
prevents one using 30 small flooded ones for 380V pack :) if someone
only would make them. Then cost would be the same.
But, again, speaking of what you can practically get, you're right.
LV = flooded, HV=AGM. Granted, there is a cost difference, but so
is performance. Performance/dollar ratio is the same :-)
What would you expect?
If I am building a low voltage traction pack, I may well prefer to use
flooded lead acid batteries due to their lower cost and simpler charging
requirements.
At the end of the day, the only requirement if I want to compare a high
voltage and low voltage system is that both systems deliver similar
range and life.
I thought you want power too. If not, flooded always win
range/dollar wise.
I'm happy to simply agree that you don't want to consider the battery
pack at all, however, the ability of a low voltage system (AC or DC) to
use flooded batteries is most certainly relevant. The fact that having
the option of using a greater range of batteries is an inherent
advantage of the low voltage system might not be something you want to
acknowledge however... ;^>
C'mon, why not? After all I sell low voltage AC systems too!
If the battery delivers the same kWh and allows the same peak and
continuous power, and lasts for a similar number fo cycles, what
performance are you not getting from a flooded pack?
This is the thing, flooded pack does not deliver the same kW
(usually, without sacrificing life, loosing capacity due to
Peukert, etc).
So, perhaps we need to temper the wide RPM range allowing the shift-free
benefit with the caveat that this is a theoretical benefit that may not
realisable in practice unless one has the ability to configure the car
with the optimum fixed reduction ratio.
Well said Roger.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Death to All Spammers wrote:
My NiMH Ranger went back to Ford with 35K mi and no change in brake
quality, and my ICE RAV4 didn't need new brakes until over 60K mi, so
why does a vehicle with regen have so much brake wear?
Not sure about Ranger, I can speak for my car. After installing an AC
system in 2000, my problem with brakes was rusting disks (for
under-usage) because I normally never tough mechanical brakes.
Granted, the pads are as new as installed 6 years ago.
I do disable regen once in a while and clean the rust
to keep brakes in working order - but one can see though
my wheel spokes and see NOT very shiny disks (unlike usually seen
in all normal vehicles).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Given the components you list, the batteries are probably your limiting
factor.
However, at 50-60 mph, I believe what is limiting you is not current, but
voltage. I think maybe the motor is spinning fast enough that it's back
EMF is close enough to pack voltage to reduce the current draw.
Does your vehicle have a 5th gear? Is so try that and see what happens.
> I am trying to determine what is limiting the current in an S10 with 9"
> Advanced DC and DCP600 and 24 Trojan T-125
>
> The 9" motor spec for 5 min. is 32.5kW. At my 144 V nominal battery
> voltage, this would be 225 Amps.
>
> The DCP600 spec is 600A max, 300A sustained.
>
> If I wanted a car with quicker acceleration at higher speeds, would I
> upgrade:
> 1) the controller to a higher rating (ex. DCP1200 or Zilla 1K)?
> 2) the motor to a different model (ex. I am only familiar with Advanced
> DC)
> 3) The battery is limiting current.
>
>
> Driving example:
> While at 50-60 mph in both 3rd or 4th gear, the emeter shows 150 Amps,
> maybe 200 amps up hill. I can not pull anymore Amps with pedal to floor.
> I would like, if possible, even an extra 150 Amps of acceleration.
>
> Thanks for the help, Ben
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't think a prius engine is a good choice. The motor/generator is
designed for a MUCH higher voltage pack then you are running, plus you'd
have to get the engine and battery management computer(s) and reprogram
them to work, etc.
Probably be a whole lot easier to get an old Geo Metro engine (one of the
high gas milage ones) and connect a 20kw generator head to it.
> Would one of you recommend a method of range extension to give a typically
> 60 miles range EV a 200 mile range?
>
> I would assume a generator would be the first given solution. If so, is
> there a quiet generator by make or model one of you has used when making a
> long trip?
>
> I estimate a need of 15 kW for continuous highway driving with a DC S10
> setup.
>
> I'm open to other economical ideas for the occasional range extension.
> Would one venture that a Prius engine (out of a junkyard Prius) could be
> used to generate the needed voltage and amps?
>
> Take 2, Ben
>
>
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Ho2 often do you need this range extension? If it's only a few times a
year, then the cheapest, easiest, and most enviromentally friendly way to
get this range extension will be to rent a car for these trips.
>Would one of you recommend a method of range extension to give a
> typically 60 miles range EV a 200 mile range?
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> The power meter showed around 700-750W consumption for most conditions.
> We came in around 37km total for the hour.
>
That seems like a lot of power for relatively low speeds. Was something
wrong with the vehicle?
FWIW a professional can maintain a higher 1 hour average speed than this
using less than 50% as much power.
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I have a document with impress (a bit hard to see on the scan) from Notary
Public in Michigan, so it should be very true.
Arne
Norway
http://www.geocities.com/kewetracer/doc.jpg
søndag 21. mai 2006, 07:17, skrev Ryan Stotts:
> "Previously owned by Ford Motor Company in Michigan. Used as a test
> car. Japanese right-hand drive version."
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/770
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Before adding my thoughts, a disclosure...I consider both Otmar and
Victor to be good friends.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Practically for the driver this translates to covering
all driving speeds on one gear, no need to shift.
You ask me what you
can do with high voltage and AC motor and this is the answer.
You cannot do it with a DC motor.
I don't agree. My high voltage DC powered Datsun 1200 sedan with its
Siamese 8 motor runs 0-120 mph in one gear. I cannot think one of
Victor's AC drive packages that can even remotely match this car's 0-60
performance (3+ seconds), its 0-100 mph performance (11+ seconds), or
its top speed for that matter (without shifting). Credit to Otmar for
his over-engineered Z2K design!
My other more tame lower voltage (156V) EV, another Datsun 1200 sedan,
can be left in third gear to give a no-shifting driving experience. Left
in third gear it 'is' slower than if shifted from 2-3-4 (under that mode
it runs 0-60 in ~ 6 seconds, probably runs 14.5 -14.8 in the 1/4 mile,
and can top 120 mph), but still under the handicap of being left in one
gear it runs 0-60 in ~ 8 seconds and tops out at ~ 90 mph...about the
same as one of Victor's $10,000 AC drive systems (price includes a high
voltage battery pack and BMS), but this car is able to do it for half
the price at about $5000 with a 9 inch motor, a Z1K controller, a
separate DC-DC, and a low voltage pack of just 13 Optimas, Orbitals, or
Hawkers...credit again, to Otmar for his affordable Z1K line of controllers.
I'm yet to hear anyone who tried
an AC system and regret the decision and want to go back to DC one.
This alone means to me AC is overall technically more superior
Hate to pop your bubble then.....I have vast experience in driving AC
powered EVs, trust me. I've driven perhaps 20 EV1s, have had AC powered
pickups to drive for months at a time, have driven Alan Cocconi's AC
CRX, have driven quite a few Solectria vehicles including the Sunrise,
the Force (Metro), and their twin drive AC pickups, have driven AC
powered Ford Rangers, have driven factory made AC vehicles from Nissan's
LiIon powered Altra wagon to Honda's NiMH powered EV +...oh, the list
could go on and on. But the truth is, I still prefer DC powered cars in
nearly all aspects. For the same money, the DC cars run off and hide
from AC cars...heck, even at half the price, they still outperform the
AC cars. DC cars give thrilling, adrenalin pumping off line torque, and
have a much higher fun factor, period! It was always interesting to go
from driving the EV1 to my DC powered Datsun 'Blue Meanie'. The EV1 was
smooth and swift, could hit 80+ mph, and of course, had a higher tech,
higher energy density pack of NiMh batteries that gave it outstanding
range per charge, but my trusty lead acid powered, shorter range DC car
could still kick its butt in the 0-60 run and really kick its butt in
top end speed :-) For me, the driving experience in the EV1, hip and
advanced as it was, was still not to the level of my backyard built DC
car with its instantaneous torque and snappy 0-60 blast!
So, am I dissing AC? Certainly not. My Insight has an AC drive system,
and some of my favorite EVs I have had the pleasure to sample have been
AC powered. I loved GM's AC powered EV1 and have fondly written about
it...I also loved Otmar's cooler than cool little Sprint with its low
power Brusa AC drive. I spent many hours behind the wheel of that fun
car. What it lacked in power, it made up for in stingy miles per charge,
silky smooth rev-forever drive, killer regen, and oh yeah, that rock'n
Wayland sound system it had! One evening Oat and I took it up into the
hills near Palo Alto for a spirited drive up twisting mountain roads to
the summit where it was getting low on SOC, only to regen all the way
back down and return to the flatlands with a hefty charge put back
in...what fun that was! I also have an EV grin producing memory of
watching Victor do his capacitor powered AC burnout....way cool!
AC is cool, DC is cool. However, the thought that only AC can be used
for single gear driving to cover 0-100 mph speeds, is not correct at
all. In fact, I would say that for the same money, the DC single speed
(direct drive) is superior to the AC single speed (direct drive) in
terms of thrilling power, extreme torque, and higher top speed (while
still retaining super quick 0-60). Now, as to regen and the highest
overall efficiency (perhaps 3-5% better), the nod goes to AC.
While I've enjoyed the discussion between my two friends, in the end,
all I can say is thank you to both for providing expert service, and for
helping to shape the EV conversion market in a positive way.
See Ya......John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone tried one of the EVT scooters, either the EVT Ion or the Equinox?
I'm wondering how well they perform, can they handle hills, how well do
they accelerate, etc.
I'm thinking about using one of their Hub motors in a project when I get
back home.
Thanks, in advance.
--
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On 23 May 2006 at 21:19, Ricky Suiter wrote:
> Why not a range extending battery
> trailer? I know someone has had to have tried this before ...
Sure. Olaf Bleck and Team New England entered a Solectria Force with a
battery trailer in the TdS for at least 2 years - 2001 and 2002, IIRC. At
least one of those years they won the range prize, with something like 156
miles.
The photo links seem to have vanished from the NESEA website, but here's
Michael Bianci's text description :
http://www.autoauditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2002/#Report46
A battery trailer is an excellent way to supplement your EV's onboard energy
for those occasions when you need extra range. It allows you to size the
main battery for your average daily use rather than your highest daily
mileage, leading to higher efficiency and lower operating cost.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 24 May 2006 at 0:14, Michaela Merz wrote:
>
> I would like to see/buy some pre-configured a/c compressors or complete
> systems (i.e. like an aftermarket vintage air system, modified for ev use)
> that
> only need to be installed and hooked up to the system voltage.
These folks might have something useful. At one time they developed a
prototype for EVs but I don't think they ever put it into production (thanks
I suppose to the evisceration of the Braude Initiative). However they have
DC powered (12v and 24v) marine air-con systems in production, and a very
fancy electric-powered system for which the voltage isn't specified. No
clue on prices. Click on Products, then Marine.
http://www.glacierbay.com/
> I would like to see/buy a range extending generator directly generating
> the dc juice in a way that I would only have to hook it up to my
> batteries.
There WAS such an animal in limited production (probably hand assembled)
about 10 years ago - the Fisher Ranger. The kit cost $6k; a fully assembled
unit was $10k.
Regrettably, I haven't seen or heard from Fisher in quite a few years. The
last info I have for the company is : Fisher Electric Technology, 2870
Scherer Drive, St Petersburg FL 33716, 813 572-9422.
>
> I would like to see/buy a (configurable) converter that would allow me to use
> my dash board instruments i.e. for state of charge.
It may not be everything you're looking for, but the Brusa amp-hour counters
have an analog output that can be used to drive a "gas gauge."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Naturellement, nous pourrions tout commencer à signaler en français, et boucher
cette langue aussi !
--
Gardez votre énergie vers le haut!
Hump
"L'ignorance est traitable, avec un bon pronostic. Cependant, si laissé non
traité, il se développe en arrogance, ce
qui est souvent mortel!"-- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 4:19 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
>
> Are you talking of non english native people also ?
> because i supose each time i post to EV list, majority should think i'm 10
> years old, or 30 needing to go back to school, or a poor student or...
> no, no, no i'm just a froggie guy other the pond which is learning english
> every day so please, yes please, write it well :^)
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:46 AM
> Subject: OT: Re: Reminder: Mind your Letter Capitalization
>
>
>> Ken wrote:
>>
>> >In my opinion, you might want to consider adjusting your thinking or
>> >you may be ignoring a significant portion of the populace that will
>> >soon be a majority of those online (if they are not already).
>>
>> Sorry Ken. I don't buy it. Anything worth doing is worth doing
>> right. If you are going to have your name attached to a post forever
>> in an archive, you might want to be sure it is worthy of archiving at
>> all. I doubt any professors would accept a term paper in all
>> lowercase. How about an all lowercase resume? Despite the
>> prevalence of text messaging and other such abbreviated forms of
>> communication, proper writing skills, sentence structure, and
>> vocabulary are still important. You might also want to keep in mind
>> that many folks reading the EVDL or the archives may not be native
>> English speakers. Continuous run-on sentences do not translate well.
>>
>> If anyone submits an entry to the Album in all lowercase or all caps,
>> it simply will never get approved, ever. Spelling errors I try to
>> locate and correct but that is it.
>>
>> On the EV Tradin' Post I usually retype any incorrect entries. In
>> that case it is usually folks who seem less familiar with the
>> Internet and submit ads in all caps.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Chancey,
>> '88 Civic EV
>> Kansas City, Missouri
>> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
>> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
>> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
>> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>>
>> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
>> position. (Horace)
>>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roger,
"What is the pack voltage sagging to while you are drawing 150-200A?"
At mid to full charge the 144 V pack reads 137-140 V at 150 A
Near the end of driving, pack voltage would be 129 V 150-200 Amps (i.e. end
of range and time to go home)
"When accelerating at lower speeds, do the DCP's LEDs indicate wide open
throttle/current limit?"
I have never seen yellow light indicating wide open throttle. I am meaning
to find the resistor leads to see their range. The yellow LED is
impossible to see in daylight.
"What is the maximum current you can ever see on the meter when
accelerating from a stop? Are you sure your controller current limit is not
turned down?"
Approx. 400 Amps at start or gear shifting on battery amperage side. I
notice the DCP only has an adjustment for RPM limit. However, the RPM
limiter was disabled by the manufacturer when he repaired this particular
unit.
SO-----------------------
If the batteries are the limiting factor, am I realizing the argument for
Advanced PbAcid batteries over traditional flooded? Do others not have
such a problem with their Trojan's being low performance? If you have a
Trojan pack in a truck, which controller and motor model performs well for
you?
However, it would seem that the whole system is designed for a slightly
lighter and smaller vehicle than a 4000 lb pickup truck, so each component
would need up-sizing.
Thanks, Ben Fratto
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/731
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