EV Digest 5527
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lee's regs in action
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Honda to Stop Making Insights
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Solectria S-10 Anti-Lock Brakes
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Solectria S-10 Anti-Lock Brakes
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) re-windstar
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GM's Wagoner admits killing EV1 was a mistake
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) NmG is the new Sparrow.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Contactor Coil Control
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Dewalt 36V module amp limit??
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Contactor Coil Control
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Dewalt 36V module amp limit??
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Dewalt 36V module amp limit??
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
by "August Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
OK, I went back and reread Lee's post. I'll quote some of it here..."My
thought would be to use two DC/DCs built for about half your pack voltage,
and wire each one across a different half of the pack to
balance the load. Connect their outputs in parallel with commoning diodes."
Maybe I didn't state it clearly, the above is what I was referring to. The
DC/DCs are tapped into the pack. Unless efforts are made to ensure an equal
output power from each they will not share. The diodes in the output will
go a long ways to making sure that this happens (sharing). However if the
converter outputs are significantly different (like 0.5V or so) it will not
help enough. Anyone who tries this also needs to keep in mind that these
diodes may require a substantial heatsink.
The AC line doesn't really care so much if you draw unequally from each line
input, your battery pack will.
Regards,
Chris Brune
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
> On Thu, 25 May 2006 19:23:26 -0700, "Chris Brune"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >Unless one is very careful with the application of putting DC/DC
converters
> >in series (tapping the pack) this could be a recipe for problems.
> >
> >Unless a mechanism is included that forces the DC/DC converters to share
the
> >load equally they will unbalance the pack. One of the converters will
have
> >a tendency to hog most of the current. The difference caused won't be
huge
> >and if battery regulators are used it maybe able to compensate for it. I
> >don't know, but I'd be careful.
>
> Uh, Chris, if you'd read Lee's post you'd have noticed that he did
> just that. He recommended that each converter be connected to HALF
> the pack. In other words, the DC equivalent of common household
> current complete with the neutral.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I assume these are regs that can be used with practically
any charger?
I might have to build me some.
Please let the list know how long your battery pack lasts on
them, Christopher.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd walk before I'd drive one of those.
No problem there, however they are impressive in that I am 6'8 and fit
in one rather comfortably. Sporty little things, plenty of pep, and that
80mpg ability is impressive (I can only get 70; Bob gets 80+ but it's
his car).
Only problem is it's a 2 seater and I have a family. Still I'd buy one
and put a Dolphin into it.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If this is true, I offer these two possibilities.
American Mindset. When buying a new car, as your primary car, 2
passengers is a select group. Especially when you are not suppose to put
a child or baby seat in the pasenger seat. They should of made it a 3
seater. The hybrid civic may contribute to the demise. It is just a
little steep to buy as a second car.
Second, The 3 times I went into the dealer, Never even 1 stick shift
avail to test drive, Car was parked in and they didn't want to get it
out for me. And I couldn't shut they guy up harping about the max
payload of only 350 Lbs. I went into buy and was scared away.
I think it is stupid to stop makeing them. They should find out why
there is a drop in sales and fix the problem. Increase weight capacity,
add a rear "child-only seat" Offer non-cvt drivetrains and restore it to
the previous simplicity and higher milage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Get back in your cheese wedge and leave us Insight(ful) ones alone :-) I
fell in love with my beautiful red Insight the day I first saw it on the
lot. I had only seen silver up until then. OK, it did take me about 2 weeks
to get used to the wheel skirts, but 5+ years later and 91K miles and I
still love it. Besides when either the ICE or the battery pack decide they
are done with me, I will drop in about 500 lbs of LiPoly a nice controller
and motor, and just keep going... Of course it will be annoying having to
plug it in all the time ;-)
Let's see, I bought it for $19,000 and compared to the 20 mpg beater I was
driving it has saved me about $7000 in gas, plus who knows how much air
pollution. What's there not to love, and what could possibly be a better
donor for an EV?
Oh, and there have been rumors about Honda going to "Stop Making Insights"
for as long as I have had mine. I think that for Honda it is like having a
Racing team. They have a car that is the best at what it is designed for,
and they've been happy to keep producing it for that reason alone. Clearly
they haven't ever made any money on them.
damon
From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:15:17 -0400
You beat me to it, John.
The reason that dog didn't hunt is because it was so butt-ugly that no
one but a bleary-eyed card carrying tree hugger could stand to be seen
near one.
There have been other cars that when they came to market, pegged my
hideous styling meter but they eventually sorta grew on me. The Ford
Taurus is an example. The Honda Element is another. The Insight
joins the Pontiac Aztec as a car that just keeps getting uglier and
uglier as time goes by. Everytime I see an Insight on the road, I
want to go over and pull up its pants. Or put splints on its broken
and drooping wings.
I'd walk before I'd drive one of those.
John
On Thu, 25 May 2006 20:13:01 -0400, John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>On Thu, 25 May 2006 19:36, Tom Shay wrote:
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12860428/
>>
>> The article said that Honda sold only 666 Insights in 2005. I wonder
>> why sales were so low? Sales of this car ought to be brisk with
>> gasoline prices so high and the widespead revulsion of SUVs and
>> other gas guzzlers. Were sales so low because customers didn't
>> want Insights or did Honda Motor Company only produce a few
>> hundred per year?
>
>You should try living in the same world as everyone else. The supposed
>widespread revulsion at SUVs and other gas guzzlers just isn't that
>widespread.
>
>Gas went up over $3 with hardly a hitch in the sales of SUV's and other
>high powered V8 vehicles. Also in Europe, where gas is double the price
>in the US, sales of SUV's are increasing.
>
>I would bet that had gas prices continued up you would have seen a
>change in buying, but prices have peaked, levelling and even dropping.
>And Tahoes are selling like hotcakes.
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Im guessing the brakes were there before the conversion.... So Im
> guessing the code thing might work well.... My mechanic just said leave
> it disconnected, works fine, and with all that weight from the
> batteries, you don't have to worry about the tires locking
> up...hehehe....
I would suggest you get a new mechanic. Since I had my brakes fitted with
a big(ger) vacuum pump and outfitted with new shoes and rotors, I have to
take care to not my brakes lock, even on a dry road. All that weight in
motion is just a big job for the tires to handle. ABS is a 'must have' if
at all possible.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't get me wrong, anti-lock brakes are great, but they don't magically
solve problems. They can actually hide them.
When racing a mitsubishi pu I had to get the brakes working better, they
sucked stock. Anit-lock was not an option. There are lots of full race
vehicles with no antilock and they work great.
The mitsu's problem was very bad bias. And since the S10 is a PU, you
may have this same part. In the rear, over the rear axle, is a valve
connected to a spring. When the front dives the bed lifts up and
relaxes(or compresses) this spring, When the truck is loaded the spring
is stretched more and shifts more brake bias to the back. Good idea, in
non-panic stops. In panic stops this system oscillates and is behind the
curve and causes excessive tail waggle and rear lockup. I removed the
spring and choose a position and locked it down, did some simulated
panic stops and re-adjusted until I had a minimum stopping distance,
stragih and controlled. I furthor changed geometry by adding radius rods
and a different front alignment to add some anti-dive to minimize the
weight transfer. I was able to reduce stopping distance by about 1/2 !!
stock 88 mitsubishi PU's are terrible, but have a lot of potential to
stop as they have big brakes.
Makes me wonder if disableing anti-lock on my other car would allow me
to similarrly get max brakeing out of each wheel then re-enable
anti-lock after it is close, (kinda like how I tune in open loop before
switching over to closed loop when setting up new plastics jobs cause
that is the only way I can see what is really hapening) I think that it
is not worth the effort, the GM 8 channel anti-lock is pretty darn good.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess that is why there are so many models, I love the look of the
insight and never ever got use to the element. The element looks, to me,
like they are driveing with the packing still on and it makes me want to
get out a giat file and take off the corners. The insight is a car I
have wanted for years, but I need a new job first. I need to run out and
buy one before they are gone. How much time do I have?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Though you would like to get an update on the offers I got from EV
suppliers. I received a few serious answers (thanks), but since I am not a
mechanic, I can't really use those.
I asked for:
A replacement a/c system that runs either of the second shaft of my motor
or directly from batteries.
Offers received: 0
A system to add regen to my truck in form of a generator/alternator, that
would be driven by the auxillary shaft of my motor.
Offers received: 0
Nobody offered anything in terms of APUs for range extension or for the
adapter I am looking for to convert my gas gauge to something more useful
than 'always WAY full'.
It looks like EVs are really just tinkering toys for those 'who know'. If
we would see that kind of process or inventors spirit in my professional
world, we would all still use MS-DOS, floppy disks and acustic couplers.
Disappointed ...
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Insight has a few things going against it:
a) It only seats two people
b) Relative to other new cars on the market, it is 'slow'
c) None are available everywhere you look!
Two seaters are usually either pickup trucks or sports cars,
each with a purpose in mind. The Honda Insight is often seen
by the casual observer as a sports car, even if technically
it isn't.
However, it doesn't perform like a sports car. 0-60 in
roughly 11 seconds? (OK, you can get it to 9 seconds if you
have a manual and are a very good driver! This would entail
shifting within 1/10th of a second...)
If Honda were serious about selling thousands of Insights a
year, perhaps tens of thousands, instead of selling
hundreds, they'd turbocharge the son of a bitch!
Turbocharged Insights can do 0-60 mph in the upper 6 second,
low 7 second region and 1/4 mile in the low 15 second region
with a modest amount of boost. This would compete with cars
like the Pontiac Solstice, Mazda Miata, and such, but
slightly faster, slightly cheaper, and really high mpg. Fuel
economy? Provided you drive like normal, you'll get the same
gas mileage it is renown for. Lead foot it, and yes, it will
drop.
I have often heard people comment that the Insight looks a
lot faster than it really is. A friend of mine even thought
Insights were fast, like in Porsche Boxter territory... if
only!
I'm not knocking the car, far from it. It's .25 drag
coefficient and spaceship-like design are rather attractive,
and from what I've gathered from the casual observer, the
'look' of the car is very well received. But the car is
expected to be a performer, when it isn't one. This leads
many to dislike the car in this area once they learn of the
performance.
Further, two seaters won't sell as many units as 4 seaters.
Just people's buying habits.
Would I have the money, I'd plunk it down for an Insight in
a heartbeat.
There is no car on the market with aerodynamics as good or
fuel economy as good that is available in America. If I want
a car that's as lightweight? My only other choice in the
U.S., at least as far as NEW cars are concerned, is a Lotus
Elise, a dream car of mine, but way too pricey. As an
electric conversion? A converted Insight could probably get
100-120 miles range at 60 mph on 1100 lbs of AGMs!
I'm sure John Wayland could tell us all an earful about
these little cars. A shame we won't be able to get them
anymore.
Even inspite of its performance, the Insight is in very high
demand relative to the supply available. Sure, it won't ever
sell as many units as a 4-seater. Even if demand were
actually met, it may only sell a few thousand a year if kept
in its current low-performance state. Honda? Like any car
company, they gravitate towards selling high profit margin
vehicles. If it won't make as much money as larger cars,
they'll discontinue it so you buy one of the larger cars...
Sort of sucks. Entire markets are ignored if they can be
steered toward more profitable ventures.
Tom Shay wrote:
>I wonder why sales were so low? Sales of this car
>ought to be brisk with gasoline prices so high and the
>widespead revulsion of SUVs and other gas guzzlers.
>Were sales so low because customers didn't want
>Insights or did Honda Motor Company only produce a few
>hundred per year?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Being a very happy owner of an Insight, I'd like to chime in here. When
the car was first introduced, there was a 4-6 month waiting list, I
know, I was on one of those lists. You can read all about it here:
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/tryingtobuyaninsight.html
I figured the expensive-to-build, limited appeal 2 seater aluminum car
would only have a 2-3 year run, and even inaccurately predicted that
2003 would be the last year for the Insight....then came the 2004, the
2005, and the 2006 models. A 7 year run!
From Tom Shay:
The article said that Honda sold only 666 Insights in 2005. I wonder
why sales were so low? Were sales so low because customers didn't
want Insights or did Honda Motor Company only produce a few
hundred per year?
When was the last time you saw a TV commercial for the Insight? I'll
help you here....5 years ago! The commercial that did run back then, was
infrequently shown, too, and to my knowledge, never on network TV, only
the cable channels. When was the last time you saw the Insight
advertised in any magazine?
It's always been a weird thing with Honda and their hybrids...they just
don't push them at all, and when it comes specifically to the Insight,
it never even gets mentioned. It's very frustrating to see a Honda
commercial pop up on the TV about rising gas prices as artfully
photographed gas pumps are shown with their digital readouts displaying
gallons and dollars racking up, and the Honda voice-over guy says
something like "Concerned about rising gas prices? Introducing, the
remarkably fuel efficient........at this point, I'm ready to hear them
say 'Insight', but instead they brag about the gas powered stock Civic
at 39 mpg" I then think, surely they'll at least show the hybrid Civic
that gets 55 mpg....nope, no mention that they even make the car. I just
don't get it.
The Insight was a very limited production, largely hand-made car, and it
had a more expensive aluminum body.
Honda didn't make very many of these cars per year, and they say they
lost money building them, due to the high costs of manufacturing. The 2
seat thing, its low slung 'lowered from the factory' stance, love it or
hate it styling, and the uncertainty for some over the early hybrids,
makes it easy to see that these cars do not have a wide market appeal.
Of course, all these traits make me love the car even more. I've always
admired aluminum bodied cars, I love small cars in general, I want my
cars lowered for better handling and efficiency, I'm a big fan of high
tech EV stuff that hybrids use, I respect good areo design (the Insight
had the lowest cd (.25) of any mass produced car at the time it was
introduced (the EV1 was better at .19 but not considered mass produced),
and I like the 2 seat configuration. Compared to the Prius, a car that I
admire but have absolutely no passion for, the Insight fits me
perfectly. As Rich Rudman wrote about a year ago after he took me for a
spirited cruise at the wheel of my Insight, the car is a blast to drive.
As I've often written, the Insight drives and feels like a reincarnated
Datsun 1200.
When we 'Insighteers' first got into our cars, we all would sign off our
posts at the Insight DL with our name and the vehicle's chronological
build number....mine is the 904th Insight made.
Neon John wrote:
The reason that dog didn't hunt is because it was so butt-ugly that no
one but a bleary-eyed card carrying tree hugger could stand to be seen
near one.
Gee John don't hold back...tell us how you really feel :-)
The Insight
joins the Pontiac Aztec as a car that just keeps getting uglier and
uglier as time goes by. Everytime I see an Insight on the road, I
want to go over and pull up its pants. Or put splints on its broken
and drooping wings.
Difference in opinion, I guess. I view my Insight as one of best looking
cars I've ever owned. I've said it before, but it bears repeating...John
Skalicky, known to be one of the best automotive photographers in the
business who shoots Ferraris, Porsches, classic American iron, euro
cars, you name it, told me during the day long photo shoot for the Car
Audio and Electronics magazine feature, that my Insight was the most
beautifully sculpted car he'd ever photographed. Quite a compliment,
indeed. You can still see the photos and read the story 'Hybrid Heaven'
here:
http://www.caraudiomag.com/specialfeatures/0110cae_honda_insight_system/index.html
I'd walk before I'd drive one of those.
While you're walking, my Insight continues to deliver 90+ mpg :-) After
6+ years of ownership, it is still super fun to drive.
From Shari Prange:
>we've been hearing from a lot of people with 2000 Insights who are now
looking at replacing a $5,000 battery pack
The replacement pack for the Insight is less than $3000, not $5000.
It is true, however, that 'some' of the first year Insights, the 2000
models which were 5 speeds only, had battery pack problems. The 80,000
mile/8 year warranty covers the problem, and replacement packs are the
improved versions as used in Insights from 2001 and up that have had
very high battery pack reliability.
My car has been trouble free....until recently. My pack began acting up
and it would occasionally initiate a battery recalibration event
(recalibration events are well documented at Insight Central). The car's
CPU recently threw the P1449 code, which is the code you want to see in
order to get Honda to authorize a replacement pack. The IMA (Integrated
Motor Assist) light stays on, electric assist and regen are out of the
picture, and erasing codes will not bring the IMA back on line. I've
already had the discussion with my Honda dealer, Honda's already
authorized a new pack for my car, my car goes in to have the new pack
installed next week, and the whole deal is covered under Honda warranty.
According to the service department guy, Honda also has an upgrade for
the inverter/controller as well, so that might get replaced in the deal.
Am I disappointed that my trusty Insight finally has a problem? Sure.
But the problem is being taken care of under the Honda 80,000 mile/8
year warranty for all IMA related hardware and the new battery pack will
be the newest generation of NiMH batteries that have a great track
record. When I bought my Insight, the IMA warranty was a reassuring
factor. It's nice to see Honda stands behind it.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
The Insight has a few things going against it:
a) It only seats two people
b) Relative to other new cars on the market, it is 'slow'
c) None are available everywhere you look!
Perhaps they are getting ready for this:
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05/06/2008-honda-fit-hybrid-to-get-insight-engine/
http://www.hybridcars.com/honda-fit-hybrid.html
Honda tradition has always been to redesign their cars at regular
intervals - hence the constant cycles of "generations" that Honda
enthusiasts talk about all the time. 4 - 8 years seems to be the typical
time span between almost complete do-overs at Honda. So this likely
isn't the premature death of the Insight family. Just clearing the table
for it's bigger, younger brother...
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rather than put the burden on other people, do some more digging. Go to
supplier web sites and search around, use google.
This is a cottage industry. It is a hobby for nearly everyone on the list.
Comparing the EV Hobby industry to the computer industry is just plain
silly.
There is not a lot of money in this industry, so it is best for you to drop
the expectation you can get what you want by just asking. You will have to
roll up your seleevs and do some work for it.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: May 25, 2006 9:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
Though you would like to get an update on the offers I got from EV
suppliers. I received a few serious answers (thanks), but since I am not a
mechanic, I can't really use those.
I asked for:
A replacement a/c system that runs either of the second shaft of my motor or
directly from batteries.
Offers received: 0
A system to add regen to my truck in form of a generator/alternator, that
would be driven by the auxillary shaft of my motor.
Offers received: 0
Nobody offered anything in terms of APUs for range extension or for the
adapter I am looking for to convert my gas gauge to something more useful
than 'always WAY full'.
It looks like EVs are really just tinkering toys for those 'who know'. If we
would see that kind of process or inventors spirit in my professional world,
we would all still use MS-DOS, floppy disks and acustic couplers.
Disappointed ...
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
its not that hard to pull the engine/trans from a mini van,only 4 bolts holding
the whole package in, looen tie rods, disconnect,fule,electrial,struts,and
brake hoses, set a jack under the trans axel/engine, and lift the front of the
van , sould take about one and 1/2 hrs to fully remove it.Makes working on the
system much easier really not that hard,,we did a dodge mini van. put 20
,6volts in the rear,boxed in. and 4 in the front to keep the head lights out of
the trees, and this was an automatic,, the way we look at it,,,Just build it,
drive it, have fun.. Wayne Electric blue
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
This is a cottage industry. It is a hobby for nearly everyone on the list.
Comparing the EV Hobby industry to the computer industry is just plain
silly.
There is not a lot of money in this industry, so it is best for you to drop
the expectation you can get what you want by just asking. You will have to
roll up your seleevs and do some work for it.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
That sound *exactly* like the early computer industry!
Back then, most said those "silly gadgets" where just a waste of time &
money for a handful of academics and electronic buffs...
I certainly hope the comparison isn't silly, maybe just needs a bit of
temporal tuning. ;-)
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
John Westlund wrote:
The Insight has a few things going against it:
b) Relative to other new cars on the market, it is 'slow'
I usually agree with most of what John writes, but I have to take
exception here. The correct comparison, would be relative to other high
mpg new cars. That would be like the small engined Toyota Corolla, for
example. A car that gets 42 mpg and runs 0-60 in about 10 seconds....the
Insight was road tested at 0-60 in 10.4 seconds and the 2000 model had
an EPA rating of 70 mpg! So, compared to its competitor in mpg, the
Insight is not slow at all and gets nearly double the mpg! Other new
cars that are in the high fuel economy arena aren't any quicker than
the Insight, and many are slower. Most people looking for a clean
running, high mpg car are surprised at how spunky an Insight is when
they test drive it.
0-60 in roughly 11 seconds? (OK, you can get it to 9 seconds if you
have a manual and are a very good driver!
Here's another way to look at the Insight's acceleration performance.
Most of us who own the 5 speeds and know how to get the most out of the
hybrid package (unlike road testers that can't seem to do drive
hybrids), as John says, can do 0-60 in the mid 9 second range. The
original Datsun 240Z sports car was considered quick in its day, with a
0-60 of 8.6 seconds.
The Insight is a squeaky clean enviro car that in real world driver's
hands often delivers 80-90 mpg, and it can almost run neck and neck with
a 6 cylinder sports car!
I do get John's point, as most of today's everyday sedans run 0-60 in
the 8 second range, whether V6 or 4 banger, but for a car that gets up
to three times the mpg to be within a second of that, I think is very
impressive and I would not consider that 'slow'. If anything, the
Insight is fast for a car that gets 80+ mpg!
I've had my Insight up to 113 mph as it out-accelerated a Ford pickup
with a V10 engine...I don't think anyone would consider that slow.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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Kind of interesting Ricky Wagoner finally admits this after all the
cars have been crushed and the tooling has been dismantled.
Where was he during the long drawn out protests to save the EV-1?
Probably in his glass tower cleaning the blood of the EV-1 off his axe.
Chip Gribben
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Message 1 From
Electric vehicles for sale.
From: "doug korthof" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu May 25, 2006 9:06am(PDT)
Subject: GM's Wagoner admits killing EV1 was a mistake
"Motor Trend, June 2006, p. 94
"Interview With Rick Wagoner
"His worst decision?
"...'Axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right
resources into hybrids. It didn't affect profitability, but it did
affect image.'"
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From the ET list. I thought the Sparrow was expensive. At 27k it should
come with NiMH batteries.
Message 2
From: "Hoodoo" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu May 25, 2006 5:28am(PDT)
Subject: Full-electric commuter trike coming State-side
Full-electric commuter trike coming State-side
Wednesday May 24, 2006 8:00 AM EST
By: Michael Kwan
Source: topgear.com
http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C8015/
Small photo -
http://www.mobilemag.com/content/images/8015_tm.jpg
Large photo -
http://www.mobilemag.com/content/images/8015_large.jpg
Hybrids might help you save a few dollars at the pump, but what if I
told you that you could get your hands on a commuter vehicle that
requires no conventional fuel whatsoever. The NmG (no more gas), as its
been dubbed, is a three-wheeling, fully-enclosed vehicle that runs
completely on electricity. We heard rumblings about this trike before
when it was called the Corbin Sparrow, but the car is now being built by
Myers Motors. And get this: it's actually coming to the United States!
Of course, as a full electric, the NmG doesn't come with a heck of a lot
of power - a mere 30 horsepower - but that's enough to get it roaring
(tongue in cheek) up to 70 miles per hour. Don't expect to go on a
cross-country roadtrip with this thing, however, nor should you even be
able to go cross-state, because it only has a range of about 30 miles.
But hey, that should be enough to get to the office and back for a good
chunk of urbanites.
With room for one, the NmG comes with an asking price of $27,515.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On May 25, 2006, at 8:42 AM, David Brandt wrote:
I am using Kilovac EV-250-1A contactors in my conversion. Shortly
after I installed them I discovered that they require an external coil
economizer (as in, they can't withstand 12V continuously). I just
recieved the economizers, but now I have a new problem - They require
"logic level" control. I seem to recall that this means +5V.
I plan to have one wired to turn on with key on, and the other
controlled by the Zilla.
Sounds like a job for a couple of LM317 or equivalent (3 terminal
positive voltage regulator.) They are cheap and and available in the
common TO-220 package (likely even in stock at the local Radio Shack.)
With a couple of small resistors and capacitors they can generate a +5v
signal referenced to the 12v system ground. Simple instructions for
selecting the resistor values are either on the data sheet, or usually
the back of the packaging if picked up at your local Rat Shack.
You may want to look at the spec sheet for the economizers. They may be
fine over a wide range of logic input voltages.
Paul G.
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I know that the A123 systems cells are powering the just released Dewalt
36V cordless tool lineup. They list it as being "high power" in the
specifications, but of course this is not very useful as a benchmark.
The Dewalt part number for the 36V lithium pack is DC9360 and they claim
a 2000+ cycle life, 90 day money back guarantee, 2 year free service
contract and 3 year limited warranty. That means for the first two
years, any worn parts caused by normal use are replaced for free, and
for three years Dewalt will repair without charge any defects due to
faulty materials or workmanship.
I know the A123 systems cells are rated at 100A or so for discharge
rates, but I was wondering if Dewalt has further limited amperage in
their battery pack like the Milwalkie Tools packs do (in order to
increase longevity of the pack).
Does anyone know what the specific amp draw limit is on the Dewalt 36V
packs as purchased off the shelf without modifications? Does anyone know
if the internal battery pack controller has been hacked for different
performance levels?
Thanks in advance.
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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Well it's a job for a regulator anyways. The LM317 is not the best idea
because there's no need to be variable, it's extra components and they
leech a bit of extra current.
It is important to know how much current you're drawing and calculate
just how much heat's going to be burned up in the reg. A heatsink may
be necessary.
Ideally you can also use a switching reg. Actually a relay coil can be
PWM'ed perfectly adequately with a 555 timer with an external
transistor. This will seriously reduce your power consumption off the
12v source, by more than 1/2 over what.
Or actually is the 5v just a logic input? I guess if there's an
"economizer" circuit in there, isn't that circuit doing PWM itself so
this 5v input only draws neglible current?
Danny
Paul G. wrote:
Sounds like a job for a couple of LM317 or equivalent (3 terminal
positive voltage regulator.) They are cheap and and available in the
common TO-220 package (likely even in stock at the local Radio Shack.)
With a couple of small resistors and capacitors they can generate a
+5v signal referenced to the 12v system ground. Simple instructions
for selecting the resistor values are either on the data sheet, or
usually the back of the packaging if picked up at your local Rat Shack.
You may want to look at the spec sheet for the economizers. They may
be fine over a wide range of logic input voltages.
Paul G.
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On May 25, 2006, at 11:08 PM, John Wayland wrote:
John Westlund wrote:
The Insight has a few things going against it:
b) Relative to other new cars on the market, it is 'slow'
I usually agree with most of what John writes, but I have to take
exception here. The correct comparison, would be relative to other
high mpg new cars. That would be like the small engined Toyota
Corolla, for example. A car that gets 42 mpg and runs 0-60 in about 10
seconds....the Insight was road tested at 0-60 in 10.4 seconds and the
2000 model had an EPA rating of 70 mpg!
To be fair you have to use current year Insight mileage rating (60/66
mpg) if you want to compare to another current model year car. I would
point out that the next closest high mileage vehicle is the Toyota
Prius (60/51 mpg.) By reports, the current year Prius does 0-60 in 9.8
seconds (and this time is not very driver dependent with its CVT
tranny.) It appears that the Insight is the slowest hybrid of 2006. The
old Prius *was* slower (12.3 second 0-60 mph.)
Paul G.
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On 5/26/06, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Though you would like to get an update on the offers I got from EV
suppliers. I received a few serious answers (thanks), but since I am not a
mechanic, I can't really use those.
I asked for:
Did you actually enquire with any suppliers directly?
The problem is that your requirements are highly specific to your
particular vehicle, of which there is only one example. For example
you asked for tail-shaft regen. This is possible to do with a
modified alternator. But as a kit? Forget it! How would any kit be
able to cater to no-two-the-same conversion EVs? Different motors,
different pack voltages, different space limitations, different wiring
layouts, different control preferences..
The people on this list can help you build it yourself, and advise
which parts to buy and where from. Or an EV conversion company or
individual could do it for you, at a price, if you ask them. There
isn't a third option!
For air-conditioning it should be easier, but you are asking in the
wrong place. Did you try going to a local plant air-conditioning
place and tell them what you wanted? I'm pretty sure someone pointed
out a bolt-in 12V solution already.
For an APU tailored to your specific pack voltage, power and space
requirements - I doubt there's anything available off the shelf - but
why should there be for a market of one person? So your choices are
to build one out of a gen-set (and possibly a powerful charger), or
offer to pay someone else to do it for you.
Same thing for a gas-gauge driver. A trivial thing to arrange using a
PIC, but you'll need to either get it custom made or do it yourself!
It's just not the same situation as the budding PC industry (or C64
industry or whatever). There you had common hardware and a potential
userbase in the thousands at least. A more realistic comparison would
be if everyone had built their own computers by hand, all with
slightly different hardware architectures and memory layouts, even if
using common components and doing the same job.
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A123 are stating 30C constant & 100C burst, the cells are 2.2AH each = 220
amps max is the *claim* - like all things LiPo independent testing is
required to substantiate this. YMMV
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Trough
Sent: Friday, 26 May 2006 5:42 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Dewalt 36V module amp limit??
I know that the A123 systems cells are powering the just released Dewalt
36V cordless tool lineup. They list it as being "high power" in the
specifications, but of course this is not very useful as a benchmark.
The Dewalt part number for the 36V lithium pack is DC9360 and they claim
a 2000+ cycle life, 90 day money back guarantee, 2 year free service
contract and 3 year limited warranty. That means for the first two
years, any worn parts caused by normal use are replaced for free, and
for three years Dewalt will repair without charge any defects due to
faulty materials or workmanship.
I know the A123 systems cells are rated at 100A or so for discharge
rates, but I was wondering if Dewalt has further limited amperage in
their battery pack like the Milwalkie Tools packs do (in order to
increase longevity of the pack).
Does anyone know what the specific amp draw limit is on the Dewalt 36V
packs as purchased off the shelf without modifications? Does anyone know
if the internal battery pack controller has been hacked for different
performance levels?
Thanks in advance.
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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A123 are stating 30C constant & 100C burst
Yeah that's the spec on the cells, but is Dewalt building lower amp
limits into their 36V modules?
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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Chip,
It's obvious that you didn't bother to actually go look at the manuals I'm
talking about. These are government manuals that are in the public domain
already, no copyright problems at all. No similarity to your example at all.
The original creator couldn't care less about me, or even about anybody
copying them. There are already others that SELL copies of these manuals,
they do their own scanning. Check out www.w7fg.com for example. He's been in
business for a LONG time. He won't care about me either. I have manuals that
he doesn't have either.
My example was considering my effort and expense in acquiring the documents
and then doing the scanning and then seeing someone take them from my free
web site and selling them. I made these manuals, which are almost impossible
to find today for this vintage equipment, available to those who restore and
use this equipment. I'm not expecting to sell them, just make them
available. Don't try to twist my example to suit a different purpose.
August Johnson KG7BZ
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chip Gribben
> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 6:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
>
> August. Just for the fun of it here is a translation of what you just
> said, pretending you are a music collector selling MPEGs and CDs on
> the side. I figured you don't mind since it doesn't phase you that
> people copy your stuff.
>
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