EV Digest 5528
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) e-max arrived
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Solectria S-10 Anti-Lock Brakes
by "EVDave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Solectria S-10 Anti-Lock Brakes
by "EVDave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Range Extension
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) DC EVrace
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Almost free ev pic delays and more parts for sale
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) 50 dollar automotive vacuum pumps.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: [NEDRA] NEDRA Power of DC Coming Up Sunday June 4
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Range Extension
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Contactor Coil Control
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Group 31 AGM battery
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Great little EV-1 Story - for those still pining
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Fwd: Re: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Contactor Coil Control
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The e-max scooter finally arrived in NM.
I test rode both the classic 1500W version
and the 'Sport' 2000W version.
The Sport was de-regulated, but the 1500W was
regulated.
Real world performance, the Sport was rather peppy.
Not too fast off the like, but peak power
seemed to occur around 30-40 km/h. Realistic
top speed was around 35mph (60 km/h). It got there
in 10-15 seconds or so. It is a bit slow up to
10 or 15 mph, then its in the sweet spot up to around
25mph, then acceleration starts to slow a bit.
Gentle controls. No regen.
Charger appears to be around 500W, and non-integrated.
But since it is about 3"x6"x8", you can carry it
in the cargo area.
The regulated 1500W version was quite slow.
Slower than the eGo, I'd say. Although they
claim it was regulated to 28mph, it seemed to
stop around 25mph, even downhill. The eGo would
surely beat it up to 23mph, by a lot.
I'll have to see if they have a current limit on
the regulated mode. Hopefully they will de-regulate it
and let me try again.
They are asking $2400 for the 1500W version, and
$3000 for the 2000W. Prices on the WWW site were
$1950 and $2750 respectively. They are claiming
shipping and handling fees. Are other dealers
charging similar handling?
They do look promising, and I sure hope they sell a
lot of them. Especially if more production might
reduce the price a bit.
aaron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree... Im looking into it to find out how to fix it.... Ive never
messed with anti-lock brakes before, so its just another new learning
experience for me.... Thanks!...
If anyone is interested, pics of my truck are at
http://photos.yahoo.com/e10dave nothing major, I just take pics of the
car before I take it apart so I know how it goes back together....
db
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 10:51 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Solectria S-10 Anti-Lock Brakes
Dave,
On a DRY street you will have no problem.
During the last rain of the spring I found myself
gliding through the red light because my brakes
locked for an instant when stomping on the brakes
when the light changed to yellow in front of me
and I tried to stop quickly.
There was nobody in front of me, luckily, so when
I lost only half of my speed while already coming up
to the stop line and the light just turning red,
I decided to run it or else I would have come to a
halt in the middle of the intersection.
Anti-lock would have avoided that.
With a slightly heavier than standard pack and a
total weight of about 4900 lbs, my truck is certainly
not light but the Solectria is neither.
Better fix those brakes than crash the car as soon
as you encounter wet pavement and a need to stop fast.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of EVDave
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: RE: Solectria S-10 Anti-Lock Brakes
Sent: 5/25/2006 7:51 AM
Importance: Normal
Yea, ive figured out with the cable disconnected, I don't have
antilock.... My mechanic HATED my car until I gave it to him to inspect
it the first time, then he calls me up about charging it, b/c he took
everyone for rides in it.... (weve been friends for years).... He
marvels at how much thought went into it when it was built.....
Im guessing the brakes were there before the conversion.... So Im
guessing the code thing might work well.... My mechanic just said leave
it disconnected, works fine, and with all that weight from the
batteries, you don't have to worry about the tires locking
up...hehehe....
Thanks for the input....
Db
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks.... Ill look for that.... I also bought the chiltons book last
night to read up a little on..... Other than changing pads, ive just
never done brake work before.....
Db
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 12:40 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Solectria S-10 Anti-Lock Brakes
Don't get me wrong, anti-lock brakes are great, but they don't magically
solve problems. They can actually hide them.
When racing a mitsubishi pu I had to get the brakes working better, they
sucked stock. Anit-lock was not an option. There are lots of full race
vehicles with no antilock and they work great.
The mitsu's problem was very bad bias. And since the S10 is a PU, you
may have this same part. In the rear, over the rear axle, is a valve
connected to a spring. When the front dives the bed lifts up and
relaxes(or compresses) this spring, When the truck is loaded the spring
is stretched more and shifts more brake bias to the back. Good idea, in
non-panic stops. In panic stops this system oscillates and is behind the
curve and causes excessive tail waggle and rear lockup. I removed the
spring and choose a position and locked it down, did some simulated
panic stops and re-adjusted until I had a minimum stopping distance,
stragih and controlled. I furthor changed geometry by adding radius rods
and a different front alignment to add some anti-dive to minimize the
weight transfer. I was able to reduce stopping distance by about 1/2 !!
stock 88 mitsubishi PU's are terrible, but have a lot of potential to
stop as they have big brakes.
Makes me wonder if disableing anti-lock on my other car would allow me
to similarrly get max brakeing out of each wheel then re-enable
anti-lock after it is close, (kinda like how I tune in open loop before
switching over to closed loop when setting up new plastics jobs cause
that is the only way I can see what is really hapening) I think that it
is not worth the effort, the GM 8 channel anti-lock is pretty darn good.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about adapting the controls from a remote control toy?
Or even better... If your going to be using the donor car's cruise control, it
is already a throttle-by-wire control
system. It does have a kind of slow response time though.
I'd lean toward the RF-RC, or even a wired RC toy servo. Look at some of the
robotics sites.....
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Chancey
> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 7:34 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Range Extension
>
> Peter wrote:
>
>>Now that I think about it, it might be better to use a pusher with an
>>automatic tranny, cruise control and a remote start feature. Get up to
>>speed, set the cruise control, start the ICE, have an actuator to
>>switch from neutral to drive. Let the cruise control and auto tranny
>>kee you at your desired speed.
>
> Yes, that is what I did and it works great. So far I only have about 160
> miles of testing on mine, but it does look like the solution at least for
> some of us. It is in the Album at:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/753
>
> Since it is an automatic, it does push to some extent even at idle. The
> side affect of this is that towing it at idle uses less power from the EV
> than driving without the pusher attached at all. The cruise control will
> engage down to 25 MPH, so it can even be uses on parkways and such. I do
> want to add a generator to the engine to provide at least 15 Amp charging
> current to the EV to allow the batteries to charge while pushing and to
> cover the power requirements for the heater and the yet to be installed air
> conditioner. I have an old PowerMite style generator that I think I can get
> to do the job, as this one has a separately controlled field circuit. Right
> now I am using a 600 Watt inverter to power the 120 VAC charger on the EV,
> but the output is only about 2 Amps.
>
> I have been trying to come up with a method to directly control the throttle
> on the pusher engine from the EV. This would allow the pusher to cover 100%
> of the power requirements and prevent draining the EVs batteries in extended
> stop and go traffic. I had intended to use the pusher to bring my EV from
> Kansas City to Joliet for the recent EVents, but at the last minute I
> decided not to be that brave. Without the generator I am sure it would not
> have made it, as there were several areas of 35 mile construction zones with
> traffic surging from 30 to 70 MPH, not a good match for cruise control.
>
> Does anyone have any great ideas for a throttle-by-wire system? Right now I
> am pursing the rather odd solution of a motorcycle twist grip throttle
> mounted on the parking brake handle. That would be linked to a custom
> throttle cable that runs back the hitch area and can be swung back to
> overlap the front of the trailer tongue. A second cable would run from the
> throttle linkage on the engine up to the tongue and the two would be coupled
> when the pusher is attached. So far, I have the twist grip installed, and
> that really did come out kind of cool, but I haven't had the cables made up
> yet. Someone suggested I look at the air-throttles used on buses, but so
> far I haven't been able to turn up anything on the 'Net. An all electric
> solution would certainly be preferred, but so far that has eluded me. I
> tried direct controlling another cruise servo but the response time was much
> too slow.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme position.
> (Horace)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The problem is that your requirements are highly specific to your
> particular vehicle, of which there is only one example. For example
> you asked for tail-shaft regen. This is possible to do with a
> modified alternator. But as a kit? Forget it! How would any kit be
> able to cater to no-two-the-same conversion EVs? Different motors,
> different pack voltages, different space limitations, different wiring
> layouts, different control preferences..
I was asking for a kit. A generator/alternator, a pulley for the advanced
dc shaft and the necessary electronics. Some parts are specific (like the
voltage), others are not.
> For air-conditioning it should be easier, but you are asking in the
> wrong place. Did you try going to a local plant air-conditioning
> place and tell them what you wanted? I'm pretty sure someone pointed
> out a bolt-in 12V solution already.
>
> For an APU tailored to your specific pack voltage, power and space
> requirements - I doubt there's anything available off the shelf - but
> why should there be for a market of one person? So your choices are
> to build one out of a gen-set (and possibly a powerful charger), or
> offer to pay someone else to do it for you.
>
> Same thing for a gas-gauge driver. A trivial thing to arrange using a
> PIC, but you'll need to either get it custom made or do it yourself!
So - we just need only one EV supplier then. Heck, we don't need even
that. Why not built all the controllers ourselves or rip it out of a fork
lift.
> It's just not the same situation as the budding PC industry (or C64
> industry or whatever). There you had common hardware and a potential
> userbase in the thousands at least. A more realistic comparison would
> be if everyone had built their own computers by hand, all with
> slightly different hardware architectures and memory layouts, even if
> using common components and doing the same job.
That was execatly how the computer industry started as 'real' computers
were expensive.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't believe you can simultaneously connect both parallel and series at the
same time. You are creating a direct short on both batteries. Look again at the
connector from - to + between the batteries.
--- Chris Brune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Or this, to keep things in balance?
> >
> > + 24v DCDC -
> >
> > | |
> > | |
> > | |
> > | |
> > ********* *********
> > * 12v * * 12v *
> > *+ -*-----*+ -*
> > * * * *
> > ********* *********
> > |# % # %|
> > |# % # % \
> > |# % # % \
> > |# % 24 # %|
> > |#____%__volt__#____%|
> > # % load # %
> > # % # %
> > # % ######## %
> > # %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> > # # %
> > ######## %
> > # %
> >
> > + -
> > 12 volt
> > load
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> Not sure what you are trying to show here, but it doesn't look good.
>
> Regards,
> Chris Brune
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Far from it. The computer industry has been HUGE from the get go. Ever
hear of IBM? Sperry? Control Data? Far cry from being a small cottage
industry.
You missed the point entirely. This is a hobby mailing list and a hobby
industry. There are few suppliers, probably making only making ends meet.
If your supplier does not have a part, rather than complain about it,
research it, maybe build it yourself!
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefan Peters
Sent: May 25, 2006 11:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
Don Cameron wrote:
> This is a cottage industry. It is a hobby for nearly everyone on the list.
> Comparing the EV Hobby industry to the computer industry is just plain
> silly.
>
> There is not a lot of money in this industry, so it is best for you to
> drop the expectation you can get what you want by just asking. You
> will have to roll up your seleevs and do some work for it.
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
That sound *exactly* like the early computer industry!
Back then, most said those "silly gadgets" where just a waste of time &
money for a handful of academics and electronic buffs...
I certainly hope the comparison isn't silly, maybe just needs a bit of
temporal tuning. ;-)
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Date: Hi,
I'll be staying at the Hampton Inn and bringing my Cushman for display.
301-739-6100 ,1716 Dual Hwy, Hagerstown,Md. I have it running with a 36V 7"
fork lift pump motor that gives me torque to 45mph (12ea US-145's) without
field weakening or advance (5000rpm's). It gets a bit warm, now with a proper
guage, to 180F with 85F ambient after running for an hour. I wonder if there's
a good formulae for motor sizing/efficiency for a given weight platform. I
think my efficiency might be a bit better with the motor wound to 72V but would
then need field weakening like the original ZEV model had, but if more
efficient, that would be better. (This yahoo email is goofy)
Cheers, Mark
Thu, 25 May 2006 13:36:59 -0400
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lee's regs in action Plain Text Attachment [ Download File |
Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
> Where did you buy the 5 watt zinors ? > Mouser. Here is a list of the
> parts I bought: 606-PR2 PR2 Chicago Miniature Incandescent
> Base Flange 2.38V .5A 50 $0.560 $28.00 7 Shipped 43 Shipped
> 4/24/2006 5/3/2006 27718023 27740929 526-1N5341B 1N5341B
> NTE replacement Diodes/Rectifiers 6.2V 5W ZENER DIODE 50 $0.760
> $38.00 50 Shipped 4/24/2006 27718023 610-CZ5342B
> CZ5342B Central Semi Diodes - Zener 6.8V 5.0W 50 $0.520 $26.00
> 50 Shipped 4/24/2006 27718023 660-MF1/2DLT52R10R0F
> MF1/2DLT52R10R0F KOA Speer 1/2Watt Metal Film Resistors 10ohms 1%
> 100PPM 60 $0.090 $5.40 60 Shipped 4/24/2006 27718023
> And of course you need potting compound: 1 590-832-TC-450ML Epoxy
> Compound 1 1 0 $29.95 $29.95 The smaller lugs are standard
> Home Depot 12-10 gauge yellow lugs; the smaller diode fits in them. For the
larger one I used heavy-duty 6ga tinned eyelets, with a 5/16" bolt hole,
from Waytek Wire, part# 36472. That should do it. Just go out and get some
parts and build the things. They're not that complicated :-) Chris
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I am so sorry for the delay on the pictures.
They will go out to all who expressed interest Sunday afternoon.
I am also selling 2 adc 9" motors, 1 adapted to a gen1 RX7 trans (with
trans) and
1 adapted to a Kcar automatic (no trans)
I am also selling a broke Curtis 500 A comtroller.
I will also be able to email pics of the motors Sunday.
Thanks,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I mentioned those Ford vacuum pumps for 50 bucks on ebay. I was sure
everyone that needed one would be all over them. They are precisely what is
needed for an EV.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Paul G. wrote:
To be fair you have to use current year Insight mileage rating (60/66
mpg) if you want to compare to another current model year car.
Good point.
I would point out that the next closest high mileage vehicle is the
Toyota Prius (60/51 mpg.) By reports, the current year Prius does 0-60
in 9.8 seconds (and this time is not very driver dependent with its
CVT tranny.) It appears that the Insight is the slowest hybrid of
2006. The old Prius *was* slower (12.3 second 0-60 mph.)
Again, good points. However, the majority of road tests for the new
Prius are in the 10-12 second range, not the 9s. There is no road test
0-60 data in reputable car mags that I trust, in the last 5 years for an
Insight, so just as taking an older mpg rating and comparing it to
current ones may not be fair, so is taking current 0-60 ratings and
comparing to ones from 5 or 6 years ago. Through the model years, the
Insight's IMA was tweaked for more torque, the battery pack was
improved, and the inverter/controller was upgraded. I'd guess a current
road test would show an Insight running 0-60 in the high 9's or low 10s.
Based on the above and what I've outlined below, I would argue that the
Insight is not the slowest hybrid in 2006:
The Ford Escape hybrid tested a pinch slower at 0-60 in 10.49 vs the
Insight's 10.4, I know, that's splitting hairs, and I know there are
some road tests that have the Escape Hybrid in the high 9s.
As to the Prius 0-60 times, I guess it's where you look:
Drag Times has the Prius at 0-60 in 10.5 seconds, again splitting hairs,
but slower than the best road test data I have for an Insight, which is
10.4 seconds.
The new Prius only ran 0-60 in 12.5 seconds here:
http://www.gayot.com/lifestyle/automobile/reviews/2006/toyota_prius.html
Another test has the new gen. Prius at 12.04 seconds to 60. Again in the
spirit of fairness, there are road tests showing the Insight at 10.7
seconds, and I even found one at 11 seconds.
Toyota officially claims 0-60 in 10.4 seconds...exactly what one road
test was for the Insight.
The majority of the road test for the current Prius have it running 0-60
in about the same time as the Insight.
The Ford Escape Hybrid, the Prius Hybrid, and the Insight are pretty
much equal in terms of 0-60 times, plus or minus 1/2 second. Compared to
the Hybrid Honda Accord (0-60 in 6.5 seconds), all of these are slow!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Good luck to all the EV drag racers next weekend at 'the Power of DC'!
May the anti-EV Vortex not descend on you!
See Ya...John Wayland
PS: It was 85-90 degrees in Portland (perfect racing weather) while we
were under the foreboding anti-EV Vortex in Illinois that canceled the
races...got home after 4300 miles of driving to monsoon type rains in
Portland, and it's forecast to be raining all this weekend again :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 2000 Insight and just yesterday got a letter from Honda, saying
that they are INcreasing the warranty on the IMA battery pack to 150,000
miles or 12 years, whichever comes first. Additionally this is
RETROACTIVE and they will refund the cost of battery pack replacement
for people who already had to pay to replace their pack because it
failed after the original 80,000 mile / 8 year warranty had expired.
Pretty impressive offer, if you ask me!
cheers,
Andrew
Electro Automotive wrote:
At 02:49 PM 5/25/2006, you wrote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12860428/
The article said that Honda sold only 666 Insights in 2005. I wonder
why sales were so low? Sales of this car ought to be brisk with
gasoline prices so high and the widespead revulsion of SUVs and
other gas guzzlers. Were sales so low because customers didn't
want Insights or did Honda Motor Company only produce a few
hundred per year?
Not sure if it's related, but we've been hearing from a lot of people
with 2000 Insights who are now looking at replacing a $5,000 battery
pack, and they are inquiring about converting to pure electric.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Andrew Letton wrote:
I have a 2000 Insight and just yesterday got a letter from Honda,
saying that they are INcreasing the warranty on the IMA battery pack
to 150,000 miles or 12 years, whichever comes first. Additionally
this is RETROACTIVE and they will refund the cost of battery pack
replacement for people who already had to pay to replace their pack
because it failed after the original 80,000 mile / 8 year warranty had
expired. Pretty impressive offer, if you ask me!
Andrew, thanks for posting this. I'm on the road right now (again), but
when I get home I'll check to see if I got a similar letter from Honda.
I plan to keep my Insight for a long time, so the extended miles and
years on the IMA system warranty is terrific news, and it seems to
verify the increased reliability of the improved NiMH packs.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hump wrote:
(in reference to throttle control on a pusher)
How about adapting the controls from a remote control toy?
Yes, that is what Sharkey did on his, then later made his own servo
from a windshield wiper motor.
Or even better... If your going to be using the donor car's cruise
control, it is already a throttle-by-wire control
system. It does have a kind of slow response time though.
Yes, I tried that. The response time was pitiful. I may try with a
larger servo, I suspect the one I had was too small.
I'd lean toward the RF-RC, or even a wired RC toy servo. Look at
some of the robotics sites.....
I have found some info from college sites using stepper motors to
control the throttle on engine test stands. There is enough info out
there, I just have to determine what looks best and what I can afford
or fabricate. I was just hoping someone had a brainstorm or new of
an existing solution.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
" Sounds like a job for a couple of LM317 or equivalent (3 terminal
positive voltage regulator.) They are cheap and and available in the
common TO-220 package (likely even in stock at the local Radio
Shack.) With a couple of small resistors and capacitors they can
generate a +5v signal referenced to the 12v system ground. Simple
instructions for selecting the resistor values are either on the data
sheet, or usually the back of the packaging if picked up at your local
Rat Shack. You may want to look at the spec sheet for the economizers.
They may be fine over a wide range of logic input voltages."
Thanks, Paul. I'll look into that reg., though I like the simplicity
of a Zener and resistor, as recommended earlier.
I'd certainly look at the datasheet if I could find it! That's what
has been weird about this purchase. The EV-250-1A is specifically
designed not just to 'use' this economizer, but to 'require' it. You'd
think they'd at least have it listed on their website. Instead, you
find a general press release without a part number praising how
wonderful the economizer is, and it doesn't show up on their database,
even after you call and get the number (by the way, the Kilovac P/N is
2265 - the Tyco P/N is different, I forget what it is, but I searched
for both). It isn't like they are tricking you into buying the
contactor to force you to buy the economizer, either, because the
economizers are fairly reasonable, considering the retail for the
contactor is usually around $400.
Danny Miller wrote:
"...Ideally you can also use a switching reg. Actually a relay coil
can be PWM'ed perfectly adequately with a 555 timer with an external
transistor. This will seriously reduce your power consumption off the
12v source, by more than 1/2 over what. Or actually is the 5v just a
logic input? I guess if there's an "economizer" circuit in there,
isn't that circuit doing PWM itself so this 5v input only draws
neglible current?"
That's exactly it. The contactor 'requires' an economizer (PWM
circuit) on it's coil (presumably because the coil isn't beefy enough
to withstand a continuous 12V). The economizer has leads for power and
coil connections, but also a logic control input. I'm looking to
supply 5V to the logic input, preferably without added complexity
beyond what is absolutely necessary.
I'll likely be able to experiment with control techniques this weekend,
hopefully without vaporizing an economizer. First, though, I have a
playground to put back together.
David Brandt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did my looooooong post about my battery/EV history make it to the list?
I didn't see it..
Anyway, the real question was this: Is there anything in a Grp 31 sized
AGM that people are using now for street EVs?
Thanx-
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's rare for me to agree with Neon John ;-) but this time I think he's on
the right track. When you put something up on the web, it's effectively
public information and it's very difficult to control what will happen to it
next. In fact the great tradition of the web is vested in that free
exchange of ideas - free in every sense.
IMO, this freedom encourages people to develop and build EVs. Yes, somebody
is making a little money widening the distribution of your plans. I'll
admit it's irksome and ethically questionable; I think he should be giving
them away, as you did. Pretty crass to get something for free and then sell
it (though now that I think about it, that's kind of a second cousin of the
way we exploit natural resources such as oil, eh? ;-)
At least the plans are getting into more hands than they would have
otherwise, meaning that more people will be building and driving EVs.
That's a good thing, no?
It's too late for this publication, IMO, but next time you put something up
on the web you might add a license of sorts, indicating that people can use
this information and distribute it freely, but not charge money for it. I
suggest looking at the GNU General Publc License for inspiration :
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found some additional information from Vicor about paralleling certain units.
Look on page 8 of
the PDF at the following link. Does this look like it would work in this
situation?
http://www.vicr.com/documents/datasheets/ds_48vin-maxi-family.pdf
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 May 2006 19:23:26 -0700, "Chris Brune"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >Unless one is very careful with the application of putting DC/DC converters
> >in series (tapping the pack) this could be a recipe for problems.
> >
> >Unless a mechanism is included that forces the DC/DC converters to share the
> >load equally they will unbalance the pack. One of the converters will have
> >a tendency to hog most of the current. The difference caused won't be huge
> >and if battery regulators are used it maybe able to compensate for it. I
> >don't know, but I'd be careful.
>
> Uh, Chris, if you'd read Lee's post you'd have noticed that he did
> just that. He recommended that each converter be connected to HALF
> the pack. In other words, the DC equivalent of common household
> current complete with the neutral.
>
> John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of our members here in Seattle is a Free-Lance Auto Writer, and he
came across this article and forwarded it to me... Enjoy
IndyStar.com Indiana Living
May 23, 2006
"The EV1 transports us back to the future of cars"
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006605230308
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my opinion....
IMPORTANT NOTE: I am NOT the guy on ebay selling those plans. I'm just making a
point in first person.
I think what the guy is doing is perfectly legal. Even if Chip had issued a GNU
type disclaimer on the works.
Consider the following....
I spent my time researching the intenet for the information.
I spent my time compiling the information I found.
I converted the information found into a PDF Document.
I am charging for the use of my time. All of the information I am giving you is
in the public domain, you are welcome
to research it yourself. If you think your time is worth more than ~ 4.99/hr,
perhaps even 4.99/day then I would
suggest purchasing my "value added" product. Otherwise, "Happy Surfing!"
I think it legal and ethical to charge for "MY ADDED VALUE" to any public
domain product.
Even in Chip's scenario, if I had compiled a CD of "PUBLIC DOMAIN" music. I can
charge for my compilation. I wouldn't
go so far as to copyright that particular compilation in my name though.
Keep in mind I am not a professional liar and my opinions regarding law are
just that, my opinions.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 12:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: OT: EV Copyright Infringer strikes again
>
> It's rare for me to agree with Neon John ;-) but this time I think he's on
> the right track. When you put something up on the web, it's effectively
> public information and it's very difficult to control what will happen to it
> next. In fact the great tradition of the web is vested in that free
> exchange of ideas - free in every sense.
>
> IMO, this freedom encourages people to develop and build EVs. Yes, somebody
> is making a little money widening the distribution of your plans. I'll
> admit it's irksome and ethically questionable; I think he should be giving
> them away, as you did. Pretty crass to get something for free and then sell
> it (though now that I think about it, that's kind of a second cousin of the
> way we exploit natural resources such as oil, eh? ;-)
>
> At least the plans are getting into more hands than they would have
> otherwise, meaning that more people will be building and driving EVs.
> That's a good thing, no?
>
> It's too late for this publication, IMO, but next time you put something up
> on the web you might add a license of sorts, indicating that people can use
> this information and distribute it freely, but not charge money for it. I
> suggest looking at the GNU General Publc License for inspiration :
>
> http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Want to
> unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or switch to
> digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In fact the great tradition of the web is vested in that free
> exchange of ideas - free in every sense.
But that's the part that bugs me the most. This guy is making money off others
work and knowledge,
he's a leech on society. I don't buy any of the "he spreading the word"
excuses. Maybe it's just a
lazy penalty for anyone who buys his product.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
let me MADMAN make a point here.
John's Insight is NOT slow..
With both of us in it, He allowed me to do a Redline shift of all the
gears..And it is not slow, and would surprise those that thought a Hybrid
had Sub Pinto/.Vega econOBox performance.
It it totally addequate... Take that from two of the fastest Street EV tire
Burners.
Under maximum abuse it did drop to 36 miles a gallon...
At 80 Mph and the wind in what's left of our hair... tunes blasting... It's
hoot to flog.
Again... a car manufacture is missing the point.. they dropped all
promotional adds for the Insight.. the Camery and Civic Hybrid fill the
"Merican" Bigger is better needs.. and for the first 3 of the last years
Gas has been cheap and everybody wanted a SUV.Well Gas is now at 3 Bucks a
gallon, and even the Moneyed crowd is noticing the pain at the Pump.
So... Honda is going to Kill it's Sporty Hybrid... I would kill for one.
Alien Green a 40 amp PFC40H and a trunk full of Lions... That would make for
a nice Plug in Hybrid with some attitude.
Even Honda might Blow this round of Bigger is not always better.
For somebody now deep into Plug ins..This is a blow to what we really need.
Small two seaters.. with maximun range and flexability.. And some sporty EV
inspired fun.
I just don't need seating for 5.. and 4 doors. I need room for me and about
a Dozzen Green boxes on the Bi monthly Sheet metal run to Portland Ore.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Honda to Stop Making Insights
> Hello to All,
>
> John Westlund wrote:
>
> >The Insight has a few things going against it:
> >
> >b) Relative to other new cars on the market, it is 'slow'
> >
> >
> I usually agree with most of what John writes, but I have to take
> exception here. The correct comparison, would be relative to other high
> mpg new cars. That would be like the small engined Toyota Corolla, for
> example. A car that gets 42 mpg and runs 0-60 in about 10 seconds....the
> Insight was road tested at 0-60 in 10.4 seconds and the 2000 model had
> an EPA rating of 70 mpg! So, compared to its competitor in mpg, the
> Insight is not slow at all and gets nearly double the mpg! Other new
> cars that are in the high fuel economy arena aren't any quicker than
> the Insight, and many are slower. Most people looking for a clean
> running, high mpg car are surprised at how spunky an Insight is when
> they test drive it.
>
> >0-60 in roughly 11 seconds? (OK, you can get it to 9 seconds if you
> >have a manual and are a very good driver!
> >
>
> Here's another way to look at the Insight's acceleration performance.
> Most of us who own the 5 speeds and know how to get the most out of the
> hybrid package (unlike road testers that can't seem to do drive
> hybrids), as John says, can do 0-60 in the mid 9 second range. The
> original Datsun 240Z sports car was considered quick in its day, with a
> 0-60 of 8.6 seconds.
> The Insight is a squeaky clean enviro car that in real world driver's
> hands often delivers 80-90 mpg, and it can almost run neck and neck with
> a 6 cylinder sports car!
>
> I do get John's point, as most of today's everyday sedans run 0-60 in
> the 8 second range, whether V6 or 4 banger, but for a car that gets up
> to three times the mpg to be within a second of that, I think is very
> impressive and I would not consider that 'slow'. If anything, the
> Insight is fast for a car that gets 80+ mpg!
>
> I've had my Insight up to 113 mph as it out-accelerated a Ford pickup
> with a V10 engine...I don't think anyone would consider that slow.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
> Thanks, Paul. I'll look into that reg., though I like the simplicity
> of a Zener and resistor, as recommended earlier.
Forget the regulator and just go with a 5.1V zener from the logic input
to ground and put a resistor in series between the 12V control line and
the logic input:
+12V ---/\/\/\------+----- +5V logic input
|
---
/ \
---
|
GND ----------------+------
> I'd certainly look at the datasheet if I could find it! That's
> what has been weird about this purchase. The EV-250-1A is
> specifically designed not just to 'use' this economizer, but to
> 'require' it.
To be fair, Kilovac offers 2 flavours of this contactor, one with the
economiser built in and one that requires an external economiser.
I also bought the external economiser version, and built my own external
economiser because I needed to provide an interface circuit between a
controller designed to use contactors with pack voltage coils and the
12V Kilovacs anyway (and Kilovac wanted something like $30 each for
their economiser and I've got 3 contactors ;^).
> The contactor 'requires' an economizer (PWM circuit) on it's
> coil (presumably because the coil isn't beefy enough to
> withstand a continuous 12V).
The coil is designed to really slam the contactor shut; when fed 12V, it
will draw about 4A continuous! However, it requires much less
voltage/power simply to hold closed, about 4W if I recall the datasheet
correctly.
You mentioned that the economiser is a bare PCB; any chance you can post
some pictures (of sufficient detail for us to see part numbers etc. ;)?
My economisers are based on the TI/Burr Brown DVR102 PWM driver IC; I'm
using a 7-pin TO-220 type though-hole package, but a surface mount
version is also available (D^2 pak?). These behave much like you are
describing the Kilovac economiser, in that they require a logic level
control signal. Thing is, when you read the fine print of the
DRV101/DRV102 datasheet it turns out the the "logic level" control input
will accept full input voltage; the "logic level" designation is just
describing that it switches based on TTL logic levels.
If you can see the parts on the Kilovac economiser to see if it happens
to also use either the DRV101 or DRV102, then you may be able to feed
the logic input 12V directly; otherwise, the safe option is to provide a
simple resistor/zener clamp on the logic line so that the 12V control
signal from wherever is safely clamped to about 5V maximum.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
