EV Digest 5568
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: HOV Stickers Going Away in CA?
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: watthour meter AC side
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) WKTEC in Denver Report
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) one for the Sinclair C5 owners...
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Shuntless in Roanoke (clueless in Reno)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Looking for EVI ICS200B Avcon powerpacks
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor sizing.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: FLA Charging Scheme
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ev volks website
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: HOV Stickers Going Away in CA?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: voltage limit 144
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Motor sizing.
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Current Eliminator News!!!!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) RE: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: home made charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) kelvin connection
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: kelvin connection
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'll try to remember what the DMV lady told me. The Gold HOV sticker
for Hybrids etc are limited in quantity. This year the limit is being
reached. They all were scheduled from day 1 to expire in 2008 IIRC.
This was a test to see how it effected traffic etc. The white Zero
Emission HOV decals never expire. Like on my EV.
Mike
--- Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob Bath wrote:
>
> >Just "hearsay" (may have been the CalStart website)
> >that they were considering it, due to the number of
> >hybrids cramming the HOV lanes. But I don't recall any
> >specific bill up for debate...
> >
> >
> >
> As a sidenote: VA just announced they will not be giving out "Clean
> fuels" plates (which allow HOV access) to new Priuses after July 1.
> On
> my last trip to DC I would say 3 out of 4 cars in the HOV lanes were
> single occupant Priuses. I wonder how this will effect the supply of
>
> Priuses countrywide, I have heard rumors that as many as 2/3's of the
>
> new Priuses were being sold in DC and CA, many to owners wanting the
> HOV
> access.
>
> Mark
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> If all of the battery terminals were wired to a central location,
> then fed into a single circuit board, making a reliable
> clamper/regulator system would be easier because the clampers
> would not be hit with environmental problems associated with
> being clamped to a battery... the wires would be run with a 1/4w or
> even 1/8 watt resistors at each batt terminal for better fuseability.
> They could be run to a db-25 or db-37 connector and then plugged into
> a board that would have each battery's clamper circuit installed.
There are advantages and disadvantages. How they balance out depends on
your priorities and situation.
Electronics will be at risk from water, dirt, bugs, rodents, etc. almost
anywhere in a car. The 12v systems are already plagued with this
problem. As you raise the voltage, the problems get much worse. You need
some pretty big spacings when you put high voltages on a PC board in a
harsh environment. The boards will need to be coated, potted, or sealed
up in some kind of impervious box.
An all-in-one board can be cheaper, but if you take the "replace the
whole board if anything fails" approach, it can be very expensive to fix
or have a spare. Many small boards can cost more initially, but are
cheaper to fix/replace.
An all-in-one board leads to an octopus of wires to that central
location. Lots of identical little boards can have the same problem,
unless you wire them as some sort of bus (2 wires to each, all in
parallel).
"D" connectors aren't sealed, and the pins of the male ends are easy to
touch. I'd think twice before putting high voltages between the pins.
Resistors are useful as fuses for low currents, but you won't be able to
charge or discharge the battery thru them except at very low rates.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember seeing a thread on this subject a while ago. In the UK we have
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?TabID=1&criteria=watt%20hour%20meter&ModuleNo=38343&doy=5m6
but I think there is a USA version too - made in China of course.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 6:46 PM
Subject: watthour meter AC side
Does anyone recomend an AC side WattHour Meter?
I am specifically looking for something that I can mount on the car so I
can accurately track input power wherever I charge.
There must be something panel mount, but no catalogs nor websites turn
anything up.
Thanks for any leads.
Ben
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thanks for the feedback. Responses below.
>
> Electronics will be at risk from water, dirt, bugs, rodents, etc. almost
> anywhere in a car. The 12v systems are already plagued with this
> problem. As you raise the voltage, the problems get much worse. You need
> some pretty big spacings when you put high voltages on a PC board in a
> harsh environment. The boards will need to be coated, potted, or sealed
> up in some kind of impervious box.
A box is the plan. I am taking the 273 volt Prius monitoring system as
an example of wiring high voltage on 19 pairs of wires/pins.
Conformally coated board. Works well. Easy to replicate the
technology. In fact for my packs I will be using the original Prius
battery ECU box to put the board into. The inside of the pack box is
mostly clean and dry if KOH is not spewing about :)
>
> An all-in-one board can be cheaper, but if you take the "replace the
> whole board if anything fails" approach, it can be very expensive to fix
> or have a spare. Many small boards can cost more initially, but are
> cheaper to fix/replace.
With only zeners and light bulbs/resistors/LED's the repairs would be
cheap. I can tell you after installing 52 clampers on my pack, that
any acid leakage wrecked a lot of things in a cascading failure. So
I'm highly motivated to try the central board idea. Even though the
central board idea will not have my surface mounted clamper circuit in
it. It should very easily fit a Zreg circuit in mass. Which would not
require potting of each unit. That's worth something alone. Surface
mount parts are an option here too.
>
> An all-in-one board leads to an octopus of wires to that central
> location. Lots of identical little boards can have the same problem,
> unless you wire them as some sort of bus (2 wires to each, all in
> parallel).
Agreed. Lots of wires. Again I learned from the Prius packs how to
make them manageable.
>
> "D" connectors aren't sealed, and the pins of the male ends are easy to
> touch. I'd think twice before putting high voltages between the pins.
The female DB connector is what I would use on the battery pack side.
Male DB on the board. On a DB9 for example the wiring would be paired
from each batter 1-6, 2-7, 3-8, 4-9. This puts the highest batt on the
far left and the lowest on the far right. My cohort wired the pairs
right next to each other and they arced with just a little bit of
contamination from the high voltage end of the pack to a much lower
voltage part of the pack. This board will be made using the toner
tranfer method.
>
> Resistors are useful as fuses for low currents, but you won't be able to
> charge or discharge the battery thru them except at very low rates.
Exactly. Low rates would be the idea if needed. Then again, if the
Zreg cannot bring a battery into line with the others then there is a
greater problem that they cannot fix.
Thinking about board layout, it might require several DB connectors
due to not wanting to go with a multilayer board. The connector may
prove to be problematic because routing 38 traces away from it with
only a double sided board is going to be fun. Hmmm. So that means the
Prius connector won't work unless the Zreg board is probably
multilayered. So the limit may be in the board itself. I'll start
laying it out to see what else I run into.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a chance to see a preview of WKTEC yesterday. The movie was very
good and I think it fairly looked at the issue ) Saw my S10E in the
background where the previous owner had parked it at the EV1 crushing
protest. The most fun was talking to people after the movie. The
manager reserved a parking space for me right next to the handicapped
space and announced that people could see an actual electric car
following the movie. After a short Q&A session by one of the movie
technical guys (Wally ??) I had about 50 (over about an hour) people
gathered around the S10E. With the lead in from the movie I got a
higher quality of questions than usual. The most common question was
"Why didn't this one get crushed too ?" (GM accidentally sold them)
followed by "What problems have you had with it?" (Two problems, have to
really watch out for people walking out in front of me in parking
garages, and when I want to use it on the weekend, my wife has already
taken it to do errands) and what is the range (500 miles a week - I've
driven over 80 miles on a single charge).
The theater manager asked if I would be willing to bring the S10E back
to the theater for the official opening on July 14. Of course I'll make
time for that.
Just a few notes specifically on the S10E since I got it in March. Now
at 6,500 miles since I got it (19,000 total). The truck has NiMH
balanced pack installed at around 12,000 miles. Found a route to work
that only takes 25 Amp-Hours in the mornings, 27 Amp-hours going home.
Add 7 Amp Hours if I run the heat pump, it is going to be 100 here today
so I will need the AC. So my discharge is about 30-44%. Even my worse
route is less than 50% discharge. With some luck I should be able to
get 100,000+ miles out of this pack.
Lynn Adams
Manager - Parts and Radiation Effects Engineering
Ball Aerospace
Boulder: 303 939-6197
Pager: 303-581-2712
See my GM factory built 100% Electric S10 Pickup at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/722
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I'm going (hopefully) tomorrow to a local reclamation yard where I
have been tipped off that there's a Sinclair C5 lurking.
I know several people on here have one so is there anything I should
bear in mind when looking at it? I'm not bothered if I have to put
some work into it to get it on the road again!
Regards
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
300 ma is great when the lead is new and in good shape.
When the lead gets old or you have a pretty messy pack of different aged
batteries 3 amps is not enough.
This bypass current value governs the end of charge and the time it takes to
get the Job done.
The more current you can bypass the shorter the Taper off phase of the
cycle. Most folks call this the Absorbtion phase, I call it the taper since
I am holding the voltage contstant and tapering back the current. With a
couple weak batteries this takes hours. With a fresh perfect set of Yellow
tops or Hawkers.. this takes seconds.
So.. the 300 ma is nice enjoy it while it lasts....It won't last for long
before you need days to drive the pack back into equalization.
So... while the math says you can do this with SMT devices and little if any
heat dissapation.. Reality Bites... Plan on 100X the current needed, and be
glad you can use that for while.
I bulk charge The Fiero...15 Exide Blue tops.. in about 30 mintes from a
2.75 Kwhr discharge, and it takes about 2 hours to get the last Reg to fire
and clear the low batt.
I can track this with my Mk3 Regs. It's funny watching which battery has the
hotest Reg, Since the heat and the Reg action feed back to the charger, I
can watch the hotest Reg move around the pack, as the system finds the
fullest battery and it's reg gets abused for a while. It's clear that alot
is happening in the pack that is NOT covered in basic Battery charging 101.
Keep in mind.. the system is not smart, The hot reg moves because the
battery it protects, drops in voltage enough to shut the it's reg off, then
some other battery gets pushed and heats it's reg. It's s dynamic thing, not
a brilliant BMS thing.
It is actually very hard to get all 15 Regs at 14.80 volts at the same
time. The best this pack has done is all 13 over 14.5 and two at 13.99. With
6 actually hanging on the Reg point of 14.79 volts and with their heatsinks
at over 100 Deg F.
So... more data for us Battery mongers.. that means something but I don't
know what.
You are going to wish you had more dissapation.....Take it from a guy that
has 10 years of Regulator design under his belt.
A PFC charger and bunch of Regs is actually becoming a BMS.
With Mk3 Digi Regs and a control PC it will be for sure.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Roger Stockton" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: Central Battery clamper/regulator board
> Roger,
>
> Now I see where you're coming from. You seem to be thinking of Rudman
> style regs duplicated on one central board. I'm not. This would be a
> central pcb for the Zregs. So I'm talking about 500ma per reg. See I'm
> not in this to recoup costs. I'm in this to make make my batterys last
> longer. Anyone that wants to adapt it to their system has to modify it
> accordingly.
>
> So for clarity, in my original post I stated this idea was for Zregs
> of 500ma capacity.
>
> Although in the ACP Saturn, the Optima YT's (45ah) are being regulated
> with just a 300ma system. It works. It works so well that when a new
> battery was put in, it was brought into line with the other batts in
> about 5 charge cycles. Maybe it takes longer than a 2+ amp
> reg/clamper, but none the less it works great. So I think as long as a
> pack of any particular size has regulation at all, that the
> regs/clampers will succeed in leveling all the battery voltages.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Mike Phillips wrote:
> >
> > > Have you tried this?
> >
> > Not personally, however, Rich and/or Joe have and they (the
> > designers/makers of the Rudman Reg) specifically advise against it
> > because they have seen the resulting Christmas Tree/chaser effect
> > whereby one reg trips and starts a cascade of other regs tripping
> > sequentially.
> >
> > > I'm not sure that pulling .5 amps per batt, or 1 amp per wire will
> > > skew it enough to even be a consideration. Milliamps of loss creat
> > > only millivolts of difference.
> >
> > It depends on the length and guage of wire between the reg and battery
> > and the amount of current the reg draws. Manzanita Micro recommends
> > sizing the wire for no more than 10mV of drop when connecting a reg
> > directly to the battery with a single pair of wires and no more than
> > 100mV drop in the load connections when the 4-wire Kelvin sense
> > connection is used:
> >
> > <http://www.manzanitamicro.com/mk%202%20regulator%20d3.doc>
> >
> > Obviously if your regs bypass significantly less current than a Rudman
> > Reg, or if their priciple of operation is different then the cabling and
> > connector requirements will be different. If they bypass significantly
> > less than 2A they will have quite limited appeal to others not using
> > such small capacity cells.
> >
> > > It suggests RJ connectors are a decent solution. Especially after 12+
> > > years. Then there are the other 2 dozen cars done the same way.
> >
> > No, it only suggests that anything can be made to work if sufficient
> > care is taken and high enough quality parts are used. At the price of
> > ACP equipment, I expect they used higher quality components than a
> > typical hobbiest would and installed them more professionally than a
> > hobbiest would.
> >
> > > Have you tried any RJ connectors on your vehicles?
> >
> > Nope, and I will not. I've seen enough RJ connector failures in
> > non-automotive applications here in the Pacific NW to avoid them.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I'm not sure that pulling .5 amps per batt, or 1 amp per wire will
> skew it enough to even be a consideration.
What ultimately matters is how many amphours your regulator can handle
in a charge cycle. Let's say you have a 100ah pack, and a 2% difference
between batteries. Then your regulator needs to handle 2ah per cycle. If
your regulator handles 2a, it needs to be on 1 hour (2a x 1h = 2ah). If
it handles 0.5a, it needs to be on 4 hours (0.5a x 4h = 2ah).
That's why my zener-lamp regulators start conducting much earlier (at a
lower voltage); so they get the necessary time in.
> Milliamps of loss create only millivolts of difference. Even 2 amps per
> wire would work. 22ga or so would be fine.
Try it. RJ (phone) connectors and wiring have significant resistance and
voltage drop. I don't think you'd be happy with the results with
Rudman-type 2amp regulators.
RJ connectors have very close contact spacings, and very small contacts.
All the normal rules of connectors say they would be a bad choice for
automotive use. But, you're welcome to try it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> Piece of cake. Here is the centralized Zreg board layouts. Layout
> depends on resistor + bulb or just resistor.
>
> 1 2 3 4 5
> 6 7 8 9
Connecting your 12 regs between consecutive pin numbers (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9) will put 60v between adjacent pins 1 and 6. Instead, you may want to
connect your regs between (1 6 2 7 3 8 4 9 5) so no adjacent pins have
more than 12v.
What are you going to do with all the heat produced by the zeners? They
aren't built to be mounted to a heatsink.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
With only zeners and light bulbs/resistors/LED's the repairs would be
cheap. I can tell you after installing 52 clampers on my pack, that
any acid leakage wrecked a lot of things in a cascading failure. So
I'm highly motivated to try the central board idea. Even though the
central board idea will not have my surface mounted clamper circuit in
it. It should very easily fit a Zreg circuit in mass. Which would not
require potting of each unit. That's worth something alone. Surface
mount parts are an option here too.
Mike:
The problem here is that the zeners need to have heat sinks on them
otherwise they will get *extremely* hot. Personal experience. The whole
idea of potting them in the terminal is to use the battery itself and
the terminal as the heat sink. If you put them externally you might have
a problem.
Another issue is wire length. Do some calculations and check out the
voltage drop at 1a current rates. Might be a problem unless you use
thick (ie 14gauge) wire. Run distance can become a problem.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
paul wiley wrote:
> Did I miss something about shunts? Is there some terrrible loss that
> occurs when using the 300a-50mv shunt inline? I could use some extra
> range on the ev-cycle!
The voltage drop is 50 mv at 300 amps. In a 100v pack, that's 0.05% (not
5%, but 0.05%). So, the voltage drop of the shunt is decreasing your
range by about that amount. If your range was (say) 30 miles, 0.05% is
0.015 miles or 79.2 feet :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> Man I sick at ascii art. That took me a while to draw and it still
> came out terrible! Although in the reply window, it's fine.
No, it worked. It communicated the idea, which is the whole point.
Same thing as writing text, and worrying about the font (or spelling or
punctuation). The gist of the information is still transferred, even
without the appearance being "correct".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Bruce, Bryan, Tom, and William for sharing your experiences,
perspectives, and opinions, and also to those who wrote me privately
off-list.
Another possibility that was just brought to my attention and that I am
exploring is the EVI DS-50, which, from what I can tell, appears to be
functionally the same as the EVI ICS-200 but without some of the fancier
bells and whistles like event-logging and a talking voice, which are
features that we probably wouldn't need anyway. Do any of you know anything
about the EVI DS-50 and how it has faired in the field? Is it out there
installed in sufficient numbers to have a track record, and if so, is its
track record essentially the same as or similar to the ICS-200?
Also, I understand there was a difference between the steel-cased ICS-200A
model and the plastic-cased ICS-200B model in that the former experienced
some corrosion problems in coastal/salt-air climates like ours here in South
Florida, which was rectified with the introduction of the plastic-cased
ICS-200B model that succeeded it. Does anyone know if the DS-50 model has a
metal case or plastic case? (I couldn't find that info in the manual.)
Thanks,
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
On Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:12 PM, William Korthof wrote:
I've used a number of Avcon Power packs. Given that they cost about over
80% less than the EVI boxes (how do you spell rip off?), I think the
Meltric approach of de-contenting this item was appropriate.
But yes, I've had failures on the meltric boxes...
-crimp connections overheated and failed
-contactor failed
-water got in one, but it was repairable
Mainly the use of automotive crimp-connectors caused overheated
connections around the contactor. This is fixable with careful assembly of
the Q/C connectors, use of higher quality Q/C connectors, or using another
more reliable wire termination on the contactors.
/wk
Charles Whalen wrote:
Thanks Bruce. The Meltric Avcon powerpacks may be cheaper for a reason.
I
have heard from a few knowledgeable sources that the EVI ICS200B Avcon
powerpacks are better quality, more reliable and durable than the Meltric
ones. So I am focusing on trying to get some used EVI units.
But since you raise this point, let me just ask the list for any
additional
opinions on this issue of EVI ICS200B Avcon vs. Meltric Avcon, preferably
based on actual experience and usage. Have any of you actually
consistently
used Meltric Avcon stations over a long period of time, either for
powering
your conductively-charged EV or for powering your portablized SPI
charger,
and can report on your experiences, favorably or otherwise, with these
Meltric Avcon powerpacks in the field?
Thanks,
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "RAV4-EV list"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [RAV4-EV] Looking for EVI ICS200B Avcon powerpacks
Charles,
You should also consider getting an AVCON Power Pak
http://www.avconev.com/
Though I don't know the current price, I believe a new Power Pak was
around
$250, much cheaper than the EVI.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "RAV4-EV list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "EV Discussion List"
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:57 AM
Subject: [RAV4-EV] Looking for EVI ICS200B Avcon powerpacks
I'm looking to buy used EVI ICS200B Avcon powerpacks in good working
order
together with wall mounts for them. If you have any of these that you'd
be
willing to sell me or know where I might be able to get some, please
contact
me off-list at: whalenc at bellsouth dot net.
Thanks,
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<Snip>
Thinking about board layout, it might require several DB connectors
due to not wanting to go with a multilayer board. The connector may
prove to be problematic because routing 38 traces away from it with
only a double sided board is going to be fun. Hmmm. So that means the
Prius connector won't work unless the Zreg board is probably
multilayered. So the limit may be in the board itself. I'll start
laying it out to see what else I run into.
For the Prius connector: (never seen one before)
How many rows on the PCB end?
What is the pitch between pins on the PCB?
What is the max current you want to support at (10/20/30)C rise?
What weight of copper are you using (0.5/1/2)oz?
later,
Wire
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Same thing as writing text, and worrying about the font (or spelling or
punctuation). The gist of the information is still transferred, even
without the appearance being "correct".
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Just be sure you get the capitalization correct :-)
I'm sorry, I sat the whole capitalization thread out even though I
desperately wanted to throw in a funny comment here and there.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a note...The late model T-birds had an independent rear axle setup.
~~If you sometimes get the sudden urge to run around naked,
drink some Windex: It will keep you from streaking.~~
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: Motor sizing.
If you use a diff from a NISSAN 300zx or some other higher powered rear
wheel drive with independent rear (ford taurus) You can use the existing
fiero suspension and cradle because you can rigidly mount the diff and
adapt just the half shafts. This may be a lot easier than a solid rear
axle. Unless I miss-understood and you are wanting a chopped ford 9" for
dragging.
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Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The floodeds will have to go to a much higher end-of-charge voltage than
>> the gel cells -- on the order of 2.5v to 2.58v/cell.
Chet Fields wrote:
> Would that be OK on a daily basis for the 3 hours?
No, you don't keep the batteries at this high a voltage for hours. This
is just the *ending* voltage just before the charger shuts off.
> What about if the ambient temperature is 90 degrees F or more?
Then you lower the ending voltage about 2 millivolts per cell per deg.C
of temperature increase over 25 deg.C.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Mike Phillips wrote:
> Now I see where you're coming from. You seem to be thinking of Rudman
> style regs duplicated on one central board. I'm not. This would be a
> central pcb for the Zregs. So I'm talking about 500ma per reg.
Gotcha; makes sense. I must have missed the Zreg mention in the
original post.
> Although in the ACP Saturn, the Optima YT's (45ah) are being regulated
> with just a 300ma system.
As Rich observes, this may not be enough as the battery ages. My
concern would be that if the goal is to clamp the voltage in the way
that Rudman Regs do, then the charger *must* use a finish current less
than or equal to the reg bypass capacity. Many people don't have the
ability to turn their chargers down to 0.3A for the finish, and even if
they do, this low current will result in very long charge times.
Cheers,
Roger.
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> And claiming 70mph range on a Vee-dub with 70 mile range - thats a little
> over the top don't you'all think?
>
> Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but whats going on?
>
> Cheers
One of our members just bought one of the cars & upgraded to 48V. I'll
wait and see how his does before deciding.
I think that's an either/or case, with the 72V, and probably using 6 or 8V
batts? Elsewhere he states he gets 3 to 5 miles per battery. I've seen his
stuff in other groups and it seems to work.
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Just warnings nothing concrete yet. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 5:45 PM
Subject: HOV Stickers Going Away in CA?
> Has anybody heard anything about CA not issuing any more HOV
> stickers, as in - ever? Running out of allotted stickers, or some
> deadline approaching?
>
> Mike Brown
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
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>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
>
> The 9 incher doesn't get into trouble until you can find 170 volts on the
> motor and over 1000 amps.
>
> The Raptors were tested with a AVDC 8 inch motor and 156 volts.
>
> So.. 156 is one of thier sweat spots.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
This raises a question in my mind....
I would assume that the 170v limit is a result of the way the motor is built
and timed. It speculate that it is a
function of the inductive properties and relationships of the armature and
field coils.
OK, so, we've determined that an ADC 9 incher, timed at 10 deg before, can
withstand 170v and 1000a.
Doesn't it stand to reason that John's field weakening scheme will screw with
these values. If he weakens the field,
will it set the maxV and maxA higher or lower. I'm guessing with a weakened
field he can raise the MaxV.
Will a motor wound for 48v cont behave the same as one wound for 96v cont, if
they are both 9" ADC motors?? I would
assume the maxV and maxA would be different in this case. Are the Warp 9's
close enough to the ADC 9's that the same
values apply?
Stay charged!
Hump
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Lee,
This central clamper board idea has two phases. One is to make a board
that fits inside the Prius battery ECU box so I can check to make sure
that these 7.2v modules are equalized. It won't take much current
bypassing as the pack only gets 1.0-1.5 amps, and that's only at the
beginning of the charge. The EQ current is very small. So I don't worry
about much about diodes getting toasted. Granted, as you and Chris
point out, the zeners will need some sinking.
As for RJ connectors, the way they are used on the ACP Saturn is to
communicate data. So they don't conduct any current to speak of. I
would not use them for any current movement at all. But for the ACP
application it's perfect. Then all of the RJ's are necked down on a pcb
in the pack to a DB37 and a ribbon cable carries the data the rest of
the way to the charger.
Somewhere I thought I showed that the right way to wire a DB connector
was just what you stated. 1-6, 2-7, 3-8, 4-9. That keeps the highest
potential pins from being right next to each other.
Rich,
Your experience is invaluable to me. That's why I copied your design on
the very first EV project that I ever made. Worked just as you designed
it to, just smaller. I know that for use in an EV pack that more
current bypass capability is a good thing. But contrary to that I see
ACP's hardware doing the same job with only .3-.4 amps of bypass with a
20kw charger. As the first batt reaches 15.8v the charger is throttled
back constantly to make sure that batt never goes higher than 15.8v. I
think that since the ACP chargers taper down to less than than 2 amps,
that their .3a works ok with such a low EQ charge at the end of every
charge cycle. Just a different way of doing the same thing, albiet
slower.
Wire,
The Prius connector has 3 rows. Although not symetrical. Two rows are
about .150 spacing IIRC. The 3rd row was something different. I'd have
to look at one when I get home. I measured them with calipers and
realized that they would not slip onto a .1" spaced perfboard. So it
will require a custom pcb. I usually use 1oz copper. There can be .5
amp of current. Since I'm not going with light bulbs for constant
current, then a resistor of maybe 17 ohms will be used to reduce parts
count. That's based on .5a, 8.5v.
Unlike lead acid, nimh must be removed from charge when it hits it's
peak. So not too long after the Zregs are all lit up the lights will
literally go out when the charger shuts off. The wires in the Prius
pack are probably 22-24ga. They span 3 feet max.
The other part of this is that this centrally located board will only
be in the Prius pack for a few cycles to make sure the modules are all
even, then it gets put into the next pack. It makes sense that it could
stay permanentely. But for now it will be doing intermittent duty then
removed.
Roger,
I'm ok with long charge times. My primary goal is to have a long cycle
life. The charger only puts out 8 amps max. So divided into 5 packs
it's very low current and equalizing essentially happens on every
charge. Age is a factor, but since these are designed for 100k+ miles
they are built to tighter specs than our lead acid are. These were
literally made for hundreds of thousand of cycles in a Hybrid. So I am
hoping for maybe 3k to 5k cycles. But instead of the battery ECU
flagging the service manager to replace a bad pack, I am making sure to
test each module so as to ensure as long a life as possible.
All,
I've been laying out a board this afternoon with just a DB9 connector
to make it faster to find out if only a double sided board can be used.
If there are no issues, then I'll move to a DB25 and then a DB37
layout.
Mike
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Hi-
I used the diff. from a nissan 300zx in the silver bullet when the stock
280z died.
It has out lived the tranny, axles, a 3200lb. dual friction center force
clutch.
F.T.
> [Original Message]
> From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 6/14/2006 6:01:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Motor sizing.
>
> If you use a diff from a NISSAN 300zx or some other higher powered rear
> wheel drive with independent rear (ford taurus) You can use the existing
> fiero suspension and cradle because you can rigidly mount the diff and
> adapt just the half shafts. This may be a lot easier than a solid rear
> axle. Unless I miss-understood and you are wanting a chopped ford 9" for
> dragging.
>
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The Current Eliminator Dragster will again be out runing TONIGHT at
Speedworld.This is an extra effort tune-up for this all important Sat.night
race at the
same track at 6pm.My points lead in NHRAs summit super pro against the Ice
Dragsters is at stake!!! 6PM Dennis Berube
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<snip>
Wire,
The Prius connector has 3 rows. Although not symetrical. Two rows are
about .150 spacing IIRC. The 3rd row was something different. I'd have
to look at one when I get home. I measured them with calipers and
realized that they would not slip onto a .1" spaced perfboard. So it
will require a custom pcb. I usually use 1oz copper. There can be .5
amp of current. Since I'm not going with light bulbs for constant
current, then a resistor of maybe 17 ohms will be used to reduce parts
count. That's based on .5a, 8.5v.
Ok a 0.010" trace @ 10C rise on 1oz copper will handle 1A. So you should be
able to snake 3 rows of pins out of the connector with no issues. If you can
draw the connector symbol and need a hand with routing let me know. (Use
Eagle, ExpressPCB, and Cadance Allegro) With .150 spaceing you should be
able to escape on one side of the card. Else use the bottom side for the
outside 2 rows and the top for the middle row. Once you escape the connector
you can bring all the nets to one side of the board and use the standard all
vertical line on one side and all horisontal lines on the other. Which ever
way you end up escaping the nets I would use as heavy of a trace as you can
clear without violating the min gap width. (most shops its 0.07"). (this is
assuming that they have no high potential pins right next to each other. )
later,
Wire
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Mike Phillips wrote:
> This central clamper board idea has two phases...
Ok; sounds good. It sounds like you have a reasonable plan. Best wishes!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Perhaps you can direct me to or advise how to charge 144 VDC off 115
> VAC-15Amps.
This is a pretty easy combination of voltages. A "bad boy" charger
(nothing but a bridge rectifier off the AC line) can barely do it. It
won't be able to reach full charge, but would work ok as an emergency
charger.
To get the voltage a little higher, you can use a small buck/boost
transformer to boost the AC line voltage about 10-20 volts. We can't
really specify the transformer tightly due to variations in the your AC
line voltage, your AC wiring and transformer resistances, pack
stiffness, the ending voltage you want to reach, etc.
> Would you highly recommend or basically require filter capacitors before
> the transformer (industrial chemical plant, so power variations are
> probable)
You generally don't need filter capacitors for battery charging. When
capacitors are used, they are mainly to handle EMI (electromagnetic
interference), or in a capacitive charger to limit the peak charging
current.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Does anyoine know where I can get kelvin wire? I have only seen it once
in my life. it was a co-extruded 16 and 20 or so.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: kelvin connection
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:08:42 -0700
Does anyoine know where I can get kelvin wire? I have only seen it once
in my life. it was a co-extruded 16 and 20 or so.
You dont need any special wire thats the point of kelvin connections. (well
if you want to go overboard you can use sheilded cable on the 2 sense lines
for extra noise rejection). Basicly for kelvin mesurements you have 4 wires.
2 "source" and 2 "sense" you can use a bigger gage wire on the source vs
sense if required. The key to a good kelvin set up is to connect the source
and sense lines together at close as possibe to where you want to mesure. In
the case of PCB based electronic load banks (just got done with a project
designing a set at work) when you lay out the pad for the sense resistor the
current path comes off each end of the part and the kelvin sense lines come
off the center (inbetween the pads) so that any IR drop due to current
running through the solder and pad copper do not affect the readings.
So for a good reading I would suggest sheilded 18 - 22 gage on the sense
lines and what ever you need to handle the current on the source lines
(sheilding not needed). I would not crimp both lines in the same terminal
but rather crimp in 2 seperate rings and then stack the rings with the sense
ring on the outside 90 to 180 deg off from the source ring.
Hope this helps,
Wire
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