EV Digest 5589
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: motor rotation
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Powerglide 2-speed Transmission
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVs vs ICE vehicles
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: mini monster garage
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What the limiting factor up a hill
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV1 GONE- Smithsonian writes back again!
by "EVRIDER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: build energy
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Unloaded the ICE, Met Wayland (long)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EVs vs ICE vehicles
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery terminal Melted Twice
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV1 GONE- Smithsonian writes back again!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Floodies; heating/cooing via pumped liquid
by "Steven Potter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Unloaded the ICE, Met Wayland (long)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Unloaded the ICE, Met Wayland (long)
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Who Killed the Electric Car? Director Chris Paine's Blog
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: build energy, what car to convert
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) New pics up
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: build energy
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Knee Point - Does anyone understand this?
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Hydraulic Hybrid?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) GM Hybrid Plug-in
by "gail donaldson lucas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Hydraulic Hybrid?
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AC low power inverter kit
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Ray
I thought I'd jump in here to let you know that your motors are designed and
are capable of reversing direction. Just switch the two power cables that go
to the two "A" (armature) terminals to get the reverse rotation. You are
correct that the angle of the brush is just to meet a certain footprint against
the comm. If you haven't advanced the motors they should spin fairly close to
the same rpm. I say close as every motor is has what I call its own
personality. In fact according to the Prestolite test manual all motors have
an acceptable low and high side of amps and rpms. I've seen the book quote
specs as far out as 25% to 30% ie: 30 to 40 amps @ 3000 to 4000 rpms. Most
motors test out along the middle area. You should have no problem coupling
them together. If you decide to advance them try to get them as close as
possible to equal rpm.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am thinking of coupling a pair of Presolite MVX-4001 (from a Schaeff fork
lift). The motors have a 7/8" spline at one end and a 1" keyed shaft at the
other.
A spline coupler would fit very well in between the two motors with only a
small gap between the motors.
My question. Does anyone know if these 7.25 inch Prestolite motors are designed
to spin equally in clockwise and counterclockwise directions, assuming that the
timing can be set the same.
The brushes do have a slight slant in one direction but that may be done to
increase the brush contact surface area. As the fork lift was designed to run
in both directions, can I assume this will work.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ray
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--- Begin Message ---
Talking to a tech at TCI who can set up a Powerglide any way you want to, said
using a locking torque converter, you have the option of 3 ratios instead of 2
ratios during start up.
For example:
A torque converter has a ratio of 1.75:1
First gear standard is 1.76:1
Second gear is 1.0:1
Note: you can get the 1st and 2nd gear in any ratio you want.
Using the existing standard transmission in my rig:
1st gear is 3.5:1 and axle is 5.57:1 is 19.495:1 overall
Using a Powerglide un lock
Torque converter 1.75:1 x 1.76:1 1st gear x 5.57:1 = 16.66:1 overall
Using a Power glide lock up
1.76:1 1st gear x 5.57:1 = 9.80:1 overall which is higher ratio than my 2 nd
gear in my manual which is 13.95:1 .
So, the 1.76:1 1st gear will not work for me. If I have TCI install a 3.5:1
1st gear, than it would be like a 1st gear only in a manual transmission which
I need for starting up. If I used a 2.0:1 1st gear, than I lose the start up
torque of the 3.5:1 1st gear.
If your EV is under 4000 lbs you may get by with a 2.0:1 1st gear.
I going to have TCI modifed a GM TH 350 3 speed with a lock up torque converter
that will give me a wicked 35.0:1 1st gear startup un lock or 19.495:1 lock up
which is the same ratio as my 1st gear in the manual. It will have an
auto/manual mode selection.
Could also start up in 2nd gear un lock which will still give me 20.0:1 or
lock will give 11.14:1
3 rd gear would be 10.0:1 un lock and 5.57:1 lock.
So this would be like a 6 speed transmission in auto mode and 3 speed in manual
mode.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Ang<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Powerglide 2-speed Transmission
I am glad that some of you feel the same about the Powerglide as I do. I am
seriously thinking about using it on my next conversion.
Further, I would imagine that the Zilla could be easily adopted to switch
the hi/lo gear making it an "automatic transmission" since the Powerglide
only needs a 12V source to switch gear. A simple vehicle speed based system
could also be used.
Otmar, this could be an alternative to the series/parallel switching. And,
it might be easier and cheaper to install. Of course, reverse would have to
be done electrically.
On 6/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/21/2006 10:57:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Yes, I always thought a Powerglide could be a good option, especially if
> you could adapt a locking torque converter to one. These are very
> simple, light, yet strong transmissions.
> --
>
> Lee, it gets better.
> TCI sells a circle track model that has no converter at all, just an on
> off
> switch.
> They also have optional gear ratio's as someone else mentioned... 1.6,
> 1.72,
> 2.0 iirc.
> I always thought that would be perfect for an ev.
> HTH,
> Ben
>
>
--
Edward Ang
AirLab
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All -
I know this is old hat, but I believe the BIGGEST problem that the auto
companies have w/ EVs is the fact that they require little or no
maintenance, so the "form factor/parts" game changes the equation and
economics of selling, purchasing and owning the vehicle dramatically.
Auto companies make a mint off of selling spare parts for WELL over what
they cost to make - $100 for a door jamb for my 99 Sienna minivan...... the
markup on ICEs is not that much (for a basic vehicle) - they just need to
get the sucker in your hands and get the parts game going.....not much of a
parts game for the EVs, so I would imagine that they would have to make more
money up front on the purchase price of the vehicles, thus making them
"economically unsustainable"...at least for THEM!!!
Mike
From: Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: build energy Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 09:10:51 -0400
Hi All,
Please disregard my first response to this email. It was 2am and I hit the
send button a little too fast.
Peter
Michael Perry wrote:
I've seen that one comment before... that it takes about as much energy to
build a car as it uses for the first 100K of its life. That seems high.
Does
anyone have a link to any study that tells how much it "costs" to build a
vehicle? Perhaps one that breaks it down by material type (e.g. steel,
plastic, aluminum and lead)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you decide to go this route, and decide to
disassemble the packs and weld the cells together, a
buddy of mine (in Denver) just bought a cell tab spot
welder on ebay. Not delivered yet. The power supply
is a little small, so we will be building a larger
one. we might be able to help you out.
Steven Ciciora
Superior, CO
--- Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Somebody talk me out of this.
>
> I've been gathering 48v regen Club Car parts on
> ebay to put in a motorcycle conversion I am
> planning. I had planned to use 4 yellow tops but
> now I see this $10 deal on 18v Black and decker
> nicad tool packs at Amazon.
>
> I figure I could make 3 parallel packs of 10 each,
> and put those in series. Then I could switch them
> back to parallel and possibly use the black and
> decker quick charger to charge the whole pack
> overnight.
>
> I can't get a line on the actual amphours of
> these, but my guess is that I would have similar
> capacity to my yellow top scenario, plus the ability
> to discharge them more deeply and get good range
> even when the weather is cooler.
>
> Anyway, perhaps someone with a better
> understanding of charging/stringing these things can
> tell me whether this is a workable idea.
>
> Thanks
>
> Carl Clifford
> Denver
>
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000302V2/variofileform-20/103-3785428-6551031?creative=327641&camp=14573&adid=1MBC10KQNEA4K48W0SP4&link_code=as1
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Since you say that you are pulling the same number of
battery amps as motor amps, this tells us that your
controller is "full on" and your batteries can't
supply enough voltage (at this load) to spin your
motor fast enough. When my Raptor controller was
working (made by the same people who make the Altrax
controler, I believe) it had an LED that would come on
to tell you this. Does your controller have a
similiar indicator? Now it's up to you to decide what
you want to blame the reduction in speed on: the
battery voltage being too low, the motor constant Kv
not being optimum for your setup, or the gearing not
being optimum :-) I'd really like to see your setup,
as I work in Boulder, live in Superior. But I'm
extreemly busy the next few weeks... I'll keep in
touch. Some local EVers and I try to meet in Boulder
for lunch about once a month, but we have been too
busy lately to get together. Maybe next time you
could join us.
Steven Ciciora
Superior, CO (the exit just before the "Big Hill")
--- Garret Maki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am happy to report that for a few weeks now I have
> been actually using
> my electric motorcycle for what I designed it for
> which is a 13 mile one
> way highway commute into Boulder Colorado.
>
> On level ground my top speed is maybe 60-65 mph.
> Heading home on US36
> about 5 miles into the drive there is a very large
> mile long hill. At
> the steepest part of the hill my speed drops to 49
> MPH. At that point I
> am pulling about 140-160 battery amps and about the
> same on the motor
> side at ~66 volts on a 72v system. My motor is a
> 12HP D&D ES33 series
> motor very similar, supposedly better than an ADC
> K91.
>
> Does anyone have a gut feel on if it is my motor or
> my batteries that
> are dropping the speed so much on this climb? I
> have a 450 amp
> controller so I am thinking it is the batteries not
> being able to source
> more current. What do you all think? On a fresh
> charge I see the
> batteries put out up to 400 amps I am just not sure
> they can to it long
> term like on the hill.
>
> I wonder if I changed to a Deka Intimidator AGM
> battery I could solve
> this issue.
>
> I am using Trojan SCS150 flooded marine batteries
> currently :)
>
>
> Thanks,
> Garret Maki
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/623.html
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Look what I received now that we are back home...
"Thank you for your email.
More than 4 million visitors saw the EV1 displayed in a prominent location
during the 15 months it was on view in the museum -- much longer that
originally planned when it was donated to the National Museum of American
History in March 2005.
A recent article in the Washington Post and subsequently picked up by the
Associated Press, incorrectly implied that the museum removed the EV1 from
display upon request by General Motors and in advance of the release of a
new documentary.
This is incorrect and there is no relation between the EV1's removal and
the release of the film. It is standard museum procedure to rotate objects
on and off display with many objects staying on view for only 6 months to 1
year. The decision to rotate out the EV1 this summer was made in January
2006, long before any release dates for the film were known.
While the EV1 is no longer on display, the car is featured on museum's Web
site: http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/collection/object_1303.html
as are other alternative and electric cars in our collections.
The museum will be closing to the public as of Sept. 5, 2006 for major
renovations. Until then, we are working to showcase as many collections as
we can until we reopen in the summer of 2008.
Once again, thank you for contacting the museum.
Sincerely,
Charles Neill
Administrative Assistant
Director's Office"
The Smithsonian heard from me again too:
I wrote twice, saying:
"Mr. Neill,
Thank you for a through reply. I must add a very important observation;
Don't you think that it is 1) too coincidental that it is being done right as
the film is being released despite what you say because 2) that thousands of
people that may have never even been to the institution will visit now, after
seeing the film due to the increased exposure, wanting to specifically see the
EV1?
I also would like you to know that we all know that GM is one of the Institutes
major sponsors. There is a GM exhibit and building. I have been to your
institution many many times since I was eight years old! (Every trip to
Washington in fact).
Can you please address these three points specifically to me?
Thank you VERY much!
Sincerely,
Eric Gorodetzky"
-AND-
"Mr. Neill,
I would also like you to know that I knew about WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR?
WAY before January 2006. I have emails from colleagues long before that, that
are DATED, as area all emails.
How could you, as a major receiver of monies from GM, not know this was a fact?
It was circulating around ALL of my ASE institute email newsletters long before
this year and in many other groups which I belong to!
I would like very much to know how you explain that.
Thank you for your time,
Eric Gorodetzky"
We are anxiously awaiting his replies.
-EVRIDER
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the first time I've "verbalized" this line of thinking, so go
easy on me, OK everyone?
Something I've often mulled about in my head thought of is that the
monetary price of most things is tied to the amount of energy it took
to produce.
For example when you check the caloric content of content of various
types of foods, they all seem to come down to a very close $/calorie
(not considering rare delicacies, etc.)
Extending this line of thinking to cars. It would seem that the more a
car costs to buy, the more energy was used in making it. A more
expensive car may be made with more rare and expensive components,
which take more energy to mine/manufacture than others. More work may
have gone into refining the design of a luxury or high end sports car,
requiring more people in the design (who in turn consume energy going
about their lives). It may require more skilled people to design and
build, who had to sacrifice energy to learn their skills. It may
require new materials which required many more people in the research
community (who in turn had to provide energy to themselves and their
families so they could run around and invent).
From this logic (if you can call my ramblings that), if you wanted to
make sure you were converting a car with the least impact on the
environment you might want to consider the cheapest car on the market.
Of course there may be some exceptions to this (if it holds at all).
Such as manufacturers selling at a loss to break into the market. Or
manufacturers having to charge more because they have considered the
environmental impact of their products and have chosen more easily
recycled but more expensive materials. Or a car might become
ridiculously trendy pushing the price up over the $/cal ratio (or
maybe the energy spent advertising it brings it back in line?). Or
their may be government subsidies, etc. etc...
More directly and probably simplifying to a point where and economists
roll in their graves... energy is the ability to do work... when you
work you expect to be paid... therefore energy=money.
Just throwing it out there,
-Mike
On 6/24/06, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I seem to recall that one criticism of the VW Lupo high efficiency (3-litre)
car was that it used exotic materials and the manufacturing energy input was
significantly higher than more conventional cars.
I'm glad this came up. I'd like to know the difference between
manufacturing energy and emissions - including the nature of the emissions -
for an ICE, 4-speed automatic transaxle, and ECU on the one hand; and an
induction motor, fixed-ratio transaxle, and inverter on the other hand.
That's a piece of the EV puzzle that isn't often fitted into the picture.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 24 Jun 2006 at 0:47, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> huge GMC 1-ton diesel pulls up, smoking all over ...
> It smells awfully much like french fries ... vegetable oil ...
> This is way cool.
So it's OK to "smoke all over," emitting particulates and aromatics, as long
as the fuel is derived from waste oil. Yes? No?
Sorry, I apologize for that smart alec comment. I don't really mean to
insult you in any way. But I have to admit, that's the first thing I
thought. The smoke was appalling (pun intended) until you discovered that
it was >recycled< smoke. ;-)
Though I'm not convinced that vegetable oil is a true renewable fuel because
of the high petroleum input to intensive farming, I do agree that it's good
to recycle waste oil and I'm glad to hear he's doing it. (I assume his
"5000 miles on 20 gallons" applies to the small amount of petrol diesel he's
using.)
Still, if the doggone truck is a gross polluter, only half the job is done
(maybe more or less than half, depending on how your area's air is now).
I know of some folks who've abandoned the EV world and gone in for biofuels
in a big way. The EV list isn't really the right place to debate the issue
of whether biofuels are a good thing. However, I think we should pay
attention to whether they and other alleged alternatives, including the
factory "hybrids," are drawing interest away from the world of EVs, or
whether they are a bridge to EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 24 Jun 2006 at 9:51, Michael Mohlere wrote:
> I believe the BIGGEST problem that the auto
> companies have w/ EVs is the fact that they require little or no
> maintenance ...
I've heard this for years, and I'm not so convinced it's true. For one
thing, ICEs' maintenance intervals have grown much longer. What they HAVE
done is made them so proprietary that it's becoming difficult to find anyone
outside of the dealer shop who can or will repair them.
The few auto-company EVs that were manufactured were designed similarly.
If the auto companies ever really do mass-market EVs (a doubtful prospect,
but one never knows), it's a safe bet that they'll load them up with
expensive, delicate electronics and mechanical parts with little or no
better reliability than the ones in their ICEs. They'll be designed for
roughly the same service life as we now get from ICEs. And the automakers
will price EV spares - motors, controllers, transaxles, etc. - so their
overall profit is no less than that on ICEs.
The auto companies certainly may have reasons to avoid building EVs. I
suspect that one is the fact that they require a huge initial investment
that won't pay off any time soon, vs. the relatively low cost to restyle an
SUV based on an elderly design. I could be wrong, of course, but I really
don't think that they're much afraid of losing maintenance and repair income
on EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 24 Jun 2006 at 21:14, Robert Chew wrote:
> People, always check your battery terminals and whether there tight. Check
> them
> every week!!!!!
I had something similar happen on my C-car many years ago. The battery
terminal ended up somewhat mangled looking, but it still worked OK.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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I know this looks bad for the Smithsonian, but let's not be too hasty. It's
very possible, even likely, that they're telling the truth - that no one
there even knew about the film when the decision was made to remove the
exhibit.
They're museum curators, not EV hobbyists. They read publications about
historic preservation, not about cars. For them to know about this film
even now (but for the Post article) would actually be surprising. I say
give 'em a break.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Just tossing out the germ of an idea for regulating battery pack
temperature in very hot/ very cold climate (Toronto, eh?).
Im considering the design of a battery heating/cooling system that
would pump ethylene glycol through a grid of interconnected plastic pipe
(like the stuff used for residential radiant floor heating). Im
thinking of a layout that would completely encircle, say 4 or 5 deep
cycle batteries placed end to end with a small gap between them for
expansion. The image in my head is like the spiral of a parking garage;
long straight sections along the length of the batteries, with approx 4
radius curves at each end (i.e. minimal fittings); maybe 4 or 5 loops
per group.
I first thought to use ½ or ¾ flexible copper with sweat joint
fittings, but I wondered if the fumes from charging would corrode it
quickly. I like the energy transfer of the cooper but I dont see a
simple way to prevent the corrosion. The energy transfer with the
plastic must be reasonably good for it to be used in home heating, eh?
And I would think its flexibility would allow it to hug the batteries
during expansion/contraction.
The other parts of the system would be:
a. either a few temperature monitors distributed through out the pack
and/or
b. inlet and outlet liquid temp gauges
c. one or more pumps and zones with ball valves (in the cab) that
could direct the heating / cooling where it was needed. (Im thinking my
Ranger will end up with a pack thats split front/back for weight
distribution and will need location specific temp control)
d. Id plumb in an electric core for heating (from the mains) and
e. for cooling Id have a set of bypass valves to the Rangers stock
radiator and/or some additional cooling via ???
f. and finally a layer of rigid insulation all around the pack with
provision to vent charging fumes
My gut feeling is that the cooling will be more of a problem than
heating; i.e. 95 degree F air rushing through my rad is not going to
give me any significant cooling to the pack. (More wacky ideas
How about
mounting a mini drip irrigation system on the front face of the rad and
pump a small amount of fresh water into it for extra cooling when
needed? I once had a summer job working in a greenhouse and was hugely
impressed by the cooling capacity of evaporating water)
End of ramble. Any comments or suggestions most welcome.
Steven Potter
98 Ranger on the drawing board
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--- Begin Message ---
Well, I've heard it said that while diesel appears visible dirtier, the
visible components of its emissions- the soot- under some throttle
settings is actually not a significant environmental issue. Thus seeing
is not believing in this case, the 5 senses are not a reliable measure
of emissions.
Moreover the CO2 emissions are "different" in that all the CO2 came from
the atmosphere only months ago rather than ancient "sequestered" carbon
in fossil fuels. The farming process creates the fuel out of carbon
removed from the atmosphere. Then (in theory at least)
biodiesel/ethanol is farmed, refined, & transported with equipment
running biodiesel/ethanol. In this scenario the nation could burn all
the fuel it wanted and not increase global atmospheric CO2 levels
(contributing to global warming) one iota. In reality the cycle does
not yet live up to this ideal, and there is a case that ethanol at least
can never produce as much BTU energy as it needed to make it. Also at
issue is whether converting so much of the ecosystem into a fuel farm is
an ecologically sound principle, but these are not issues for "waste" oil.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 24 Jun 2006 at 0:47, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
huge GMC 1-ton diesel pulls up, smoking all over ...
It smells awfully much like french fries ... vegetable oil ...
This is way cool.
So it's OK to "smoke all over," emitting particulates and aromatics, as long
as the fuel is derived from waste oil. Yes? No?
Sorry, I apologize for that smart alec comment. I don't really mean to
insult you in any way. But I have to admit, that's the first thing I
thought. The smoke was appalling (pun intended) until you discovered that
it was >recycled< smoke. ;-)
Though I'm not convinced that vegetable oil is a true renewable fuel because
of the high petroleum input to intensive farming, I do agree that it's good
to recycle waste oil and I'm glad to hear he's doing it. (I assume his
"5000 miles on 20 gallons" applies to the small amount of petrol diesel he's
using.)
Still, if the doggone truck is a gross polluter, only half the job is done
(maybe more or less than half, depending on how your area's air is now).
I know of some folks who've abandoned the EV world and gone in for biofuels
in a big way. The EV list isn't really the right place to debate the issue
of whether biofuels are a good thing. However, I think we should pay
attention to whether they and other alleged alternatives, including the
factory "hybrids," are drawing interest away from the world of EVs, or
whether they are a bridge to EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Burning waste vegetable oil has the same environmental benefits as burning
biodiesel, but does not require the processing that biodiesel does. It
still emits pollutants, but not near as bad as petroleum diesel. It would
certainly be preferable to petrodiesel or gasoline for a generator or pusher
trailer.
By the by, the reason soot is not really a concern from diesel engines is
because it settles out relatively quickly. The main diesel emissions to be
concerned with are the various oxides of nitrogen and oxides of sulfer. Of
course, carbon dioxide is a major concern if using sequestered carbon rather
than carbon dioxide recently removed from the atmosphere by plants.
Dave
----Original Message Follows----
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Unloaded the ICE, Met Wayland (long)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:33:02 -0500
Well, I've heard it said that while diesel appears visible dirtier, the
visible components of its emissions- the soot- under some throttle settings
is actually not a significant environmental issue. Thus seeing is not
believing in this case, the 5 senses are not a reliable measure of
emissions.
Moreover the CO2 emissions are "different" in that all the CO2 came from the
atmosphere only months ago rather than ancient "sequestered" carbon in
fossil fuels. The farming process creates the fuel out of carbon removed
from the atmosphere. Then (in theory at least) biodiesel/ethanol is farmed,
refined, & transported with equipment running biodiesel/ethanol. In this
scenario the nation could burn all the fuel it wanted and not increase
global atmospheric CO2 levels (contributing to global warming) one iota. In
reality the cycle does not yet live up to this ideal, and there is a case
that ethanol at least can never produce as much BTU energy as it needed to
make it. Also at issue is whether converting so much of the ecosystem into
a fuel farm is an ecologically sound principle, but these are not issues for
"waste" oil.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 24 Jun 2006 at 0:47, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
huge GMC 1-ton diesel pulls up, smoking all over ...
It smells awfully much like french fries ... vegetable oil ... This is way
cool.
So it's OK to "smoke all over," emitting particulates and aromatics, as
long as the fuel is derived from waste oil. Yes? No?
Sorry, I apologize for that smart alec comment. I don't really mean to
insult you in any way. But I have to admit, that's the first thing I
thought. The smoke was appalling (pun intended) until you discovered that
it was >recycled< smoke. ;-)
Though I'm not convinced that vegetable oil is a true renewable fuel
because of the high petroleum input to intensive farming, I do agree that
it's good to recycle waste oil and I'm glad to hear he's doing it. (I
assume his "5000 miles on 20 gallons" applies to the small amount of
petrol diesel he's using.)
Still, if the doggone truck is a gross polluter, only half the job is done
(maybe more or less than half, depending on how your area's air is now).
I know of some folks who've abandoned the EV world and gone in for biofuels
in a big way. The EV list isn't really the right place to debate the issue
of whether biofuels are a good thing. However, I think we should pay
attention to whether they and other alleged alternatives, including the
factory "hybrids," are drawing interest away from the world of EVs, or
whether they are a bridge to EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Here is a link to Chris Paine's blog concerning the Smithsonian
incident with the EV1.
http://www.ifmagazine.com
He makes some good points about their refusal to initially let him
film the car when he was producing the movie.
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
http://www.evadc.org
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From this logic convert the most expensive cars, they already have
a big investment in building them that would be wasted.
However, as a conversion business, the reality is to pick a car that is
most popular to reduce costs. I've been thinking Taurus, the cars are
mostly unchanged for 86 to present, and tons have been sold, its a
boring practical car, and its an american car. They do have more weight
than a smaller car, but not that much. 3000lbs, a honda civic 2700, new
beetle 2700, minicooper 2500. add 500-1000lbs of batteries to get a
long range, and the base weight is not that significant, brakes on a
small car are insufficient. One could reduce battery size to save
weight if shorter range is needed, but it's hard to add capacity to a
small car.
This would also break the "golf cart" perception, of small slow open
cars, the electric taurus would be just like a standard car.
However, having considered this business once again this year, I come to
the same conclusion that there is high risk and yet low reward.
There is no barrier to entry by competitors, so if demand takes off big
players with more marketing resources will enter, small players willing
to cut prices as well. You'd need something proprietary, a better
transmssion or motor or battery or control system that nobody else can
duplicate.
so i think I may just do my own car for my own purposes cheaply in
one-off fashion.
now I do think the electric outboard motor has much less risk, and more
market. Selling cars is a local business, outboards can be shipped
across the country.
Always appreciate your thoughts too,
Jack
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Hey All
Found a few hours to upload some long over due pics of the road trip and some
new motor stuff like the Kevlar banding of armature comm's I've done. Sorry
I've been vacant for the most part these passed few weeks. I've had a lot of
personal family stuff going on as well as a ton of hunny do's I've put off
thats kept me busy (really cramping my EVDL time, lmao). Anyway I thought I'd
let those interested know that I've got some new stuff to see up at the site.
Hope you enjoy.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
Ps: Sorry the Hooter girl pics aren't better!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aluminum apparently requires huge amounts of cheap electricity to smelt. The
local (Oregon) plant closed down when electricity prices went above 2 cents,
during the CA brownouts. Perhaps that's one of the exotic materials,
aluminum alloy?
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: build energy
> I seem to recall that one criticism of the VW Lupo high efficiency
(3-litre)
> car was that it used exotic materials and the manufacturing energy input
was
> significantly higher than more conventional cars.
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Catchin'up on old evdl emails...
I mean, gawd bless the evld and all, but this link to a thread on the
evTrader site, w/"real" folk reprogramming their GEMs... priceless. Not
to suggest the evdl folk are anything less "real"... but I hope you
know what I mean. Many on the evdl are in "racing mode" or concerned
w/keeping up w/the 20th-century gas auto, so "cracking" the
30mph/whatever "barrier" on batts seems so fun... forgive me, and
thanks.
Lock
Toronto
--- Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is this on a GEM? Be careful and change it in little increments at a
> time, but turning this up a tad will help get some more RPM's out of
> the motor. The stock setting should be 43, I don't knwo if I'd go
> much beyone maybe 45 here. I will say this though, the professional
> reprogrammers do not change this setting. Turning #7, the min field
> current, down will gain you the most. If this is a GEM with the stock
> motor try 75 for #7, I'd be hesitant to go any lower. 72 and maybe 70
> can be used if it's the aftermarket motor. I was told this is a motor
> life issue more than anything. Function 7 is what allows more motor
> rpm's.
>
>
>
http://www.evtrader.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=75&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
>
> Dale Curren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Everyone, Newby here,
>
> The following is a quote from my controller manual.
> It has a setting that is not clear to me.
> This is controlling a shunt motor. What does it mean by "START" ?
> Does it mean that field weakening starts to gradually kick in at some
> point?
> Or, as the next sentence implies, at some point all FW is fully in
> effect?
> It seems contradictory to me.
>
> FUNCTION 24 FIELD WEAKENING START (or MOTOR KNEE POINT)
>
> This function allows for setting the armature current at
> which minimum field current will be achieved.
> Range 0 to 350 Amps
> Setting 0 to 255
> Resolution 1.625 per set unit
> Example: Setting of 26 = 42 amps.
>
> Dale Curren
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thinking about hybridifying a 'normal' ev: Would it be feasable to connect
a hydraulic motor to the auxillary shaft and whenever extended range is
needed, run a an ICE with an hydraulic pump i.e. on a trailer? I don't
know too much about hydraulics, but I think capable hydraulic motors
wouldn't very big or am I mistaken?
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was in the Las Vegas Review Journal today.
GM developing hybrid electric vehicle
General Motors Corp., losing sales to fuel-efficient cars from Toyota Motor
Corp., is developing a hybrid-electric vehicle with a battery that
recharges at any outlet, said GM officials familiar with the plan.
The so-called plug-in hybrid would travel more than 60 miles on a gallon of
gasoline, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the
research is secret.
General Motors, which had the first modern electric car in 1996, lags
Toyota in hybrids, which combine electric motors and gasoline engines.
A 28 percent rise in U.S. gasoline prices this year helped boost sales of
Toyota's gasoline-electric models 37 percent, giving the Japanese automaker
almost three-fourths of U.S. retail hybrid sales. GM doesn't make competing
vehicles now. Automakers are trying to raise fuel efficiency as U.S.
lawmakers consider tougher requirements for cars and trucks.
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with that 8 wheeled humungous japanese EV with very powerful
hub motors, it is a reality now that those do and therefore CAN
work
i have been thinking similarly about a trailer hitched to the car..
for carrying the batteries and powering the car's hub motors
will hydraulic hub 'motors' work better ?
they are pretty much a standard thingy on earthmoving equipment,
cranes, dozers, dumpers and do drive the wheels of these things
by direct mounting to the driving sproket/wheel
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:21 AM
Subject: Hydraulic Hybrid?
>
> Thinking about hybridifying a 'normal' ev: Would it be feasable to connect
> a hydraulic motor to the auxillary shaft and whenever extended range is
> needed, run a an ICE with an hydraulic pump i.e. on a trailer? I don't
> know too much about hydraulics, but I think capable hydraulic motors
> wouldn't very big or am I mistaken?
>
> Michaela
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.9.3/374 - Release Date: 23/06/2006
>
>
___________________________________________________________
The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from
your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kaido Kert wrote:
> I'm not intending to compete with ACP at all, I simply have a goal
> of getting a vehicle moving using AC drive system while not popping
> in upwards of several thousand dollars just for a flux vector
> controller/inverter which should be cheap off the shelf tech by now
It's possible, but it's not "cheap off the shelf tech". There are two
main problems.
First, the power stage of a commercial drive has specific voltage,
current, and power limitations that are not easily changed. They don't
provide schematics, part numbers, or theory of operation information
that would allow you to change or upgrade them.
Second, AC drives are normally custom programmed to suit the specific
motor used. The user cannot do this programming; he can only use the
motors that the drive's manufacturer intended for him to use.
Thus, it will take some serious "reverse engineering" to figure out how
to upgrade one of these drives for some other voltage, current, or for
use with a different motor.
The skills, tools, and knowledge to do this aren't common, and it is
difficult tedious work. It's not likely that someone will do it for you,
and give the work away for free.
Once upon a time, I felt as you did, and tried to build my own AC drive.
I saw the commercial inverters for smaller AC motors, and the
application notes published by the IC manufacturers. So, I tried to
build one. It took far more time and money than I expected, and never
worked very well.
I found that the application notes deliberately make it sound easier
than it really is -- they are marketing tools to get you to buy their
parts, after all. They leave out most of the nitty-gritty details. I had
to buy some scrapped inverters, and reverse engineer them to figure out
the details to make it work (how do you wire it, how do you deal with
noise issues, how do you make it survive overloads, transients, and
other "oopsies").
The best AC EV inverter plans I know of are in Richard Valentine's book
"Motor Control Electronics Handbook", ISBN 0-07-066810. It provides the
complete schematic, mechanical construction details, and the source code
for programming an EV-size controller. Look at this book before deciding
if you are capable of building such an advanced project.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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