EV Digest 5622
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: frontal area
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) re: Electravan emblem needed
by Dave Muse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Hosing down batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hosing down batteries
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: gang charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hosing down batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: "DC Inverter" heat pump
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: "DC Inverter" heat pump
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: "DC Inverter" heat pump
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: "More Electric Vehicles"
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) SIP headers
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Electravan emblem needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Taurus EV
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Taurus EV
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: SIP headers
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Ford 10.25" Rear End for a Drag Truck
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Electric 4X4 Roadster on an S10 Chassis
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) "Who Killed the Electric Car" T-Shirts
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
> >Michaela wrote:
> > In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do those batteries
> > suffer some kind of Peukert's effect too?
> Lee wrote:
> Peukert's equation affects the amphour capacity of a battery. It says
> that the higher the current, the lower the amphours. It applies
> primarily to lead-acid batteries.
>
> Ohm's law affects the voltage you get from a battery. It says that the
> higher the discharge current, the lower the voltage (due to internal
> resistance) -- but it does not affect the amphour capacity. It affects
> all batteries (including lead-acid).
>
> As a practical matter, what matters is how much *energy* you get out of
> the battery; not just its voltage or amphours. So for every battery, you
> have a graph of energy versus discharge current, and they all deliver
> less energy as the discharge current is increased. This graph is the
> combined effects of both Peukert's and Ohm's effects.
I don't catch the difference result between peukert's effect and ohms' law
effect you speak about, for my understanding seems the same (out of the
name) :
Ah usable goes down as current goes up and then you have to let off the
throttle sooner.
We see this in all batteries, more or less according to their conception
choices but seems to me then there is a so called peukert effect on all
batteries.
Kokam at 10C give 82% C instead of 100% C, at C/5 they give >105% C, isn't
this peukert effect ?
Power batteries (kokam ProEV use are good exemple) are the best at such game
and keep their Ah better under hard discharge as hawker lead-acid, energy
batteries are not winner as they are not designed to play same game so what
is the difference with power batteries ?
They have very low R and tiny R variations during discharge,
Voltage sag but we have same Ah available = ohm's law ? is this possible ?
Votlage sag and we loose Ah = peukert effect ?
It's interesting though i'm looking for understanding click, i would like to
have more details please
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ha!
Mike
No need for "sorry"!
I can see you're right of course.
Had the thought and shot mouth off too fast.
Thank you, and it's me that's sorry <smile>
Lock
Toronto
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lock, this string thing won't quite work out. A circle with radius =
> 3.1831 has a circumference 20 and area 31.83. A square with
> sides = 5 also has perimeter 20 but area is only 25. A rectangle is
> even less efficient at containing space. If one side is 3
> and the other is 7 it has the same perimeter of 20 as the square and
> circle except the area is now only 21. Your string would
> have to keep the shape of the car profile, which is the same thing as
> doing the photo trick mentioned earlier. Sorry ;-)
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Lock Hughes wrote
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 10:49 AM
> > How `bout wrapping the vehicle at it's fattest point with a piece
> of
> > line. Measure the length of the line, treat it as the circumference
> > of a circle and solve for area of circle with Phi?
> > Just 2cents. Metric here in Cda now, so getting hard to find yard
> > sticks <smile>
> > Lock
> > Toronto
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rocky -
Here's a logo from the back of my Electra Van, full size:
http://www.use4.com/ev-b.jpg
Most of the silver color is weathered away, but you can figure out how
it used to look.
Dave Muse
I need an Electravan emblem for the hood on my 81 Courier electric truck. Part
of the original is missing. Appears to be the same as the emblems on the
fenders which ar OK. the emblems I have are flat black one color but could be
weathered. Does anyone know how the original emblems were finished out , if at
all?
Rocky
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> You were stuck with using the same layout that the Van came with...
> The point is... When doing twin 500 Hp drive trains, inventing them
> is a really hard thing to do... If we really were hunting for sub
> 10 seconds like we were bragging about... what to use and where to
> get it would have been different.
Ok, just for fun...
What would have happened if you started with something small and light
to begin with, like my old ComutaVan? It was an "old mail truck", too.
But it weighed under 1000 lbs without batteries. And already had a rigid
pipe space frame, solid front and rear axles, with tons of room for even
a huge Ford 9"er.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chet Fields wrote:
> I have read several references now to hosing down flooded batteries
> to clean off the acid spray buildup. When this is done, do the
> interconnect cables need to be removed? What stops the batteries
> from shorting out while this is done? Or is this not a concern?
Normal clean water isn't very conductive. On a modest voltage (72v)
pack, I couldn't even feel a tingle from holding the hose and standing
on wet ground or touching the car body while hosing mine off.
However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups, each
below 48v or so.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups, each
below 48v or so.
Hm. How safe/dangerous is 75 volts? I have rigged my Prizm using a 3
phase switch as the disconnect and it bisects the pack into two with one
set, and divides each side into two regions with the other. Thus the max
voltage I can be nailed with is 75.
Is this safe or still dangerous enough to get me killed?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What part of your anatomy do you blow out statements like: "If we really
were hunting for sub 10 seconds like we were bragging about.." No one, not
even you mentioned anything to anyone about sub 10 second ETs. We were
hopeful of sub 12s at best. The difference between sub 10s and sub 12s is
the same enormous difference there is between Goldie and The Maniac Mazda.
Also where are you getting your numbers for twin 500 hp drives. Let's see
the math. Furthermore, no one was searching a wrecking yard for any drive
train parts. Please watch the show. You might learn something. The wrecking
yard scene was a trip to search for suspension components, not drive
components. Can't you get anything right?
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
They wouldn't fit because:
You were stuck with using the same layout that the Van came with.
The design was to use a independant rear suspension, and the battery boxes
were laid out where any real drive train would be.
The point is.. When doing twin 500 Hp drive trains.. inventing them is a
really hard thing to do. Espeically with Cameras up your butt and a rather
limited budget.
If we really were hunting for sub 10 seconds like we were bragging about..
thought about what to use and where to get it would have been different.
Searching a wrecking yard for a drive train that was intended fro 100 to
150
Hp is a fools errand Rod... and you know it. Or you do now.
Where to fit two narrowed 9s.. or better.. should have taken first
place...
not as after thought.
We did pretty good with what we had..
We all know how to go faster now don't we????
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
In a message dated 6/30/2006 11:15:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"A pair of 9 inch rear ends and a pair of TH400 trannies and we would
not
have had any real drive train issues on Gp But.. it would have been a
totally different EV..Not a hacked old Mail truck like the TV producers
wanted."
Look Rich, you know damned well that these items will not fit in the
tiny
room alloted in "GP".
Why wouldn't a narrowed 9" have fit?
I've seen them as narrow as appx. 24inches and as wide as 6 feet.
Ben
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> As a precaution you might want to put a diode in the positive lead
>> of each charger to the battery. That way current can't come back
>> from an adjacent battery.
Matthew Milliron wrote:
> I think this is a great idea. An inexpensive "just in case".
This may or may not help, depending on the design of the charger. If
each output is nothing but a transformer winding and a rectifier, then
the diode is already there, so an extra one is unnecessary. If there is
an electronic control circuit, adding a diode may prevent it from
sensing or regulating the battery voltag. In any case the diode drop
will cause a shift in the charging voltage. You just have to try it and
see what happens.
>> Have you calculated how much input current is going to be drawn
>> with 8 chargers all hooked up?
> I am told less than 20 amps, plus a 120 volt muffin fan for
> ventilation/cooling.
Again, you'll have to get one and measure it for yourself. I suspect
your main worry will not be to trip the breaker when you turn them all
on at once.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> does anyone know how to extrapolate the torque produced by a DC
> motor based upon the 72V rating? If so, could you share the
> equation with the list?
The answer is simple. Voltage has *no* effect on torque. DC motor torque
is almost completely determined by motor current. Voltage mainly contrls
the rpm, not torque.
For a PM motor, the approximate equation is very simple: Torque = K x
Current, where K is a constant for that particular motor.
For a series motor, the approximate equation is: Torque = K x Current^2
(current squared) for currents well under rated current. At rated
current, it's mmore like Torque = K x Current^1.5, and at currents many
times larger than rated current it approaches Torque = K x Current^1.
Again, K is a constant for that particular motor.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> If you're going to use a blower to force inside air temperature
>> to match outside temperature, then insulation becomes pointless.
David Dymaxion wrote:
> I'd differ on this. I had a truck with no A/C. The headliner fell
> off. Talk about hot! The metal roof reradiated the sun's heat,
> felt like you were in the sunlight directly. This is despite the
> windows down, vents going, and interior air close to exterior air
> temperature.
Agreed. I was referring to the normal case with the headliner and other
interior parts in place.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> > However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
> > over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups, each
> > below 48v or so.
>
> Hm. How safe/dangerous is 75 volts? I have rigged my Prizm using a 3
> phase switch as the disconnect and it bisects the pack into two with one
> set, and divides each side into two regions with the other. Thus the max
> voltage I can be nailed with is 75.
>
> Is this safe or still dangerous enough to get me killed?
My ComutaVan had a 72v pack with half in the front box, and half in the
rear box. With a stream of water from my garden hose spraying the most
positive battery terminal in a box, and my hand on the negative terminal
in that box (a 36v difference), I couldn't even feel any current. So I
just sprayed down the batteries, letting the water, acid residue, and
whatever other crud there was drain out the bottom. I sprayed the water
with one hand, and scrubed the tops with a scrub brush in the other
hand.
I felt safe doing this, because the worst voltage I could reach was only
36v (+72v and -72v are at opposite ends of the car). But I certainly
wouldn't do this with a higher voltage pack, or anywhere you could get
more than about 48v of difference!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The price on that thing is downrigh insane though. $321 plus 153 shipping?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 2:31 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: "DC Inverter" heat pump
Perusing eBay, I found an item that brought up a few questions.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280003104238 is a heat
pump
that uses a "DC inverter", so it rectifies 120VAC, smooths its out to DC,
then
runs it through a 3-phase inverter. If you could jump to just DC input
(especially a range of DC voltages), it might make a nice candidate for
cooling
and heating a conversion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
I am getting ready to purchase a link-10. Has anyone ever bought the
link20 for two battery packs? Where did you put your shunt? I am thinking
on the negative battery lead next to the battery.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 2:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
There is another way to calculated the amount of ampere-hour that can be
attain from a battery.
Look at a battery chart on how much time in minutes you have at 75 amps.
In my case, I have 260 ah battery at the 20 hour rate. This means you can
draw out 260/20 or 13 ah per hour for 20 hours.
If I look at 75 amp rate which my driving is closer to, this becomes 145
minutes.
145 minutes / 60 = 2.41 hours
2.41 hr x 75 amps = 181 actual usable amp-hour
When I use about 45 ah, this shows up as about 75% remaining the Link-10.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Jones<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
Michaela wrote:
> In comparing alternative battery chemistries: Do
those batteries suffer some kind of Peukert's effect
too?
According to Valence's discharge graph on
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp<http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp>,
going from 20A to
60A out of U1 modules shows ~50% reduction in capacity
for lead acid, vs. only ~10% for Valence. I believe
that this drop is mostly due to Peukert effect in the
lead acid batteries, and internal resistance in the
Valence batteries. But each effect may be present in
each type of battery, I don't know.
I do not know the details of the discharge
characteristics of other alternative chemistries, but
I believe some nickel-based batteries have both low
Peukert effect and low internal resistance.
CalCars.org's battery comparison table has internal
resistance information, but I don't see Peukert:
http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf<http://www.ca
lcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf>.
Chris
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FWIW it says it uses an "Active filter" on the power side. This leads me
to believe it has active PFC, which it probably should for being a motor
load.
If this is the case, it probably runs on a universal input as well
though it only says 115VAC/60Hz. So who knows?
Regarding the Mr Slim units, I've heard they aren't all that reliable.
--
Martin K
Danny Miller wrote:
> That does sound promising. It's also got an impressive SEER value.
>
> That's the same strategy as the "Mr Slim" A/C units that they keep
> running late night commercials for. Mr Slim only has like a 10-13
> SEER though. Man, 16.6-17.6 is pretty good!
>
> The inverter controls really sound promising for DC/DC conversion.
> Still, it's worrying in that it may require a higher DC voltage than
> your battery pack. Hard to say but 120VAC through simple
> rectification produces 170VAC. Certainly they must have some sort of
> power factor correction, in fact they may have designed it to change
> the DC voltage of the rail depending upon load.
> Danny
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jody Dewey wrote:
Roland,
I am getting ready to purchase a link-10. Has anyone ever bought the
link20 for two battery packs? Where did you put your shunt? I am thinking
on the negative battery lead next to the battery.
I did for the Elec-trak. The link20 however has a problem in that it
does not support prescalers, so voltage is limited to <50 volts.
The shunt goes in the negative side of the battery, just like a link 10.
However it is two shunts with a common side.
Works fine enough on the Elec-trak.
Chris
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But active PFC strategies generally wouldn't work with a DC input.
First off PFC has no meaning at all on a DC input.
PFC is a switching scheme that senses points on the waveform- and there
is only one voltage point on the input. It may burn up, may not even
turn on, or may work fine. There's no telling.
Now note PFC and doing a variable DC/DC conversion to provide an optimum
motor voltage for a given load and/or be insensitive to input voltage
variations are two different things. Now that conversion will almost
certainly have a output that controls the PFC filter.
Danny
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
FWIW it says it uses an "Active filter" on the power side. This leads me
to believe it has active PFC, which it probably should for being a motor
load.
If this is the case, it probably runs on a universal input as well
though it only says 115VAC/60Hz. So who knows?
Regarding the Mr Slim units, I've heard they aren't all that reliable.
--
Martin K
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--- Begin Message ---
A seperate accessory motor can be selected with whatever rpm range it
wants and be geared appropriately, from 600rpm to 3600rpm. It can be
placed anywhere convenient, basically makes the accessories an
independent system from the traction setup. It also costs a lot less to
replace than the traction motor, why increase its wear to idle, even if
slight. The added weight is not significant compared to a transmission.
In short, my opinion is that it is more flexible, efficient, and
simpler, but not having done it yet, I might change my view.
The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
Power seats? Tilt steering?
Jack
Jack Murray wrote:
The idea would be to use a single accessory motor that spins
the existing belt, and can be sized and run at a constant rpm
to max its efficiency.
So, you seem to be betting on being able to find a single motor in the
~5HP range that will run enough more efficiently than your traction
motor to make a difference. If we do a bit of back of the napkin
figuring, let's say the accessory load is about 5hp (3.7kW). At 85%
efficiency (about the best you would get even from a dedicated motor),
this is 4.4kW input from the battery. At 60% efficiency (about what
your traction motor might run at when idling with only the accessory
load), 6.2kW is required from the battery. If we round up the
difference to an even 2kW, then this means that every time you stop at a
light, etc. for about 2min and just idle the accessories you will
consume about 67Wh more from the battery using the traction motor. This
translates to about 15 stops (30min of idling!) to consume just 1kWh of
additional energy from the pack.
While driving, the traction motor efficiency will typically be nearer
its peak (about the same 85% as the best accessory motor), and the
difference becomes much less.
The stock taurus trans IS a weak point, and my intention is to
eliminate it. My latest thought without looking at it yet is
to modify the trans to keep the differential portion of it.
The accessory motor and its mounting bracketry, etc. will likely [more
than] offset any weight savings associated with eliminating the torque
convertor and guts of the tranny.
You would likely need to modify the tranny such that it offers some
fixed reduction in addition to the reduction offered by the
differential. Assuming you use a DC traction motor, you are likely to
lose more efficiency by going to a single fixed reduction than you would
ever gain from running the accessories with a more efficient dedicated
motor. Since the power required to move the vehicle is significantly
greater than that required to spin the accessories, losing a few percent
in drivetrain efficiency can easily amount to a greater amount of power
being drawn from the pack than the difference between driving the
accessories from the traction motor vs a dedicated accessory motor.
You will also incur the additional cost of reversing contactors as
removing the guts of the tranny will cost you the mechanical reverse
gear.
If you are determined to do a Taurus and not use the auto tranny, it may
definitely be worth seriously considering the option of transplanting a
manual FWD tranny into it, if not one from another Taurus, perhaps one
from an Escort or Focus.
One point in doing a taurus is exactly because it is NOT a
small car.
But, it will effectively be one when you are done. You are starting
with a heavy vehicle that has limited payload capacity (unlike, say a
pickup), and when you are done, even if you have managed to retain the
back seat you will most likely be at or over the GVWR unless you either
use exotic batteries or have a very short range requirement. So, at the
end of it, you will have a largish appearing vehicle that can probably
seat a maximum of 2 people safely. (Insurance around here tends to be
void if you are caught with a vehicle operating over GVWR.)
Good luck,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
> from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
> electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
> Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
> clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
> Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
> Power seats? Tilt steering?
>
> Jack
Is this plan to do 100's of Taurus conversions based on an actual
business plan? You'd need financial resources to take on that
many...or even 10 of these!
Do you have some emotional or logical reason to choose the Taurus?
While there are plenty of conversions in this size range, current
professional converters tend to choose smaller cars (or small pickup
trucks for their higher GVWR). I'd never want something this large in
frontal area, and many others find its styling boring -- the latest
Jaguar sedan looks like a Taurus with a change in grill and hood, so
Ford blandness seems to be contageous.
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--- Begin Message ---
;) After having seen it now I have to agree.
Still, at least if in the future we all do conferences like this we
can fall asleep without being seen ;)
Nikki
On 5 Jul 2006, at 22:39, Death to All Spammers wrote:
A friend of mine who is registered with the IEE (in the UK) sent me
this this morning in an email. I haven't watched it all yet, but the
tip here is to fast forward in the presentation to about 14 12
minutes since the first bit of the broadcast seems to be the admin
guy setting up the webcam!
http://www.iet.tv/search/index.html?spres=4615
All I knew about Manchester was that they have a soccer team, but now
I know they have lecturers that rival sleeping pills! Seriously, I
watched the whole thing and even understood most of what he was
talking about - when will he have those "more electric airplanes" up
and running?
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I need these connectors/sockets (SIP) for the boards I'm working on.
They have a tiny 'MX' on each one. I cannot for the life of me fine
them on the web. Help?
Here's a pic.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/sipconn.jpg
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
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Quoting Rocky Lear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I need an Electravan emblem for the hood on my 81 Courier electric truck.
> Part of the original is missing. Appears to be the same as the emblems on the
> fenders which ar OK. the emblems I have are flat black one color but could
> be weathered. Does anyone know how the original emblems were finished out ,
> if at all?
>
> Rocky
>
Dont know about the original emblems or if this will help but Mike C. from the
tradin post sells a terrific Electric emblem so cheap its almost embarassing.
They look totally OEM and are self adhesive. David C.
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
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Taurus is basically unchanged from '86 to present, 20 years of cars to
pick from. Prone to engine and trans failures. A big trunk. Boring
normal car with lots of standard features. Styling is always
subjective, given Taurus is one of the most popular cars in the USA, a
lot of normal people must like them.
Hey, they run them in Nascar, that frontal area can't be that big an
issue.. ;)
An alternative is the New VW Beetle, but not too many available.
If you've got another idea, put it forward..
Best Regards,
Jack
Death to All Spammers wrote:
The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
Power seats? Tilt steering?
Jack
Is this plan to do 100's of Taurus conversions based on an actual
business plan? You'd need financial resources to take on that
many...or even 10 of these!
Do you have some emotional or logical reason to choose the Taurus?
While there are plenty of conversions in this size range, current
professional converters tend to choose smaller cars (or small pickup
trucks for their higher GVWR). I'd never want something this large in
frontal area, and many others find its styling boring -- the latest
Jaguar sedan looks like a Taurus with a change in grill and hood, so
Ford blandness seems to be contageous.
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Something to watch out for is the brakes are marginal on the Taurus
-- they are easily overheated. Putting on bigger brakes from a later
model, or ducting air to them, or doing regen are ideas to help.
Taxi companies like to use large cars. You could look at which cars
are most popular as taxis (Crown Vic? Daimler-Chrysler minivan?).
The Mustang would have the benefit of being an enthusiast car -- that
means lots of lightweight racing parts are available.
I initially wanted to convert a big car, but when I did the math I
realized it meant more money and a longer time to recharge.
--- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Taurus is basically unchanged from '86 to present, 20 years of cars
> to
> pick from. Prone to engine and trans failures. A big trunk.
> Boring
> normal car with lots of standard features. Styling is always
> subjective, given Taurus is one of the most popular cars in the
> USA, a
> lot of normal people must like them.
> Hey, they run them in Nascar, that frontal area can't be that big
> an
> issue.. ;)
>
> An alternative is the New VW Beetle, but not too many available.
>
> If you've got another idea, put it forward..
> >>The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used
> parts
> >>from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is
> what
> >>electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
> >>Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is
> pretty
> >>clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
> >>Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door
> locks?
> >>Power seats? Tilt steering?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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Jack Murray wrote:
> A seperate accessory motor can be selected with whatever rpm range it
> wants and be geared appropriately, from 600rpm to 3600rpm. It can be
> placed anywhere convenient, basically makes the accessories an
> independent system from the traction setup.
This is true. However, it also makes that system a fair bit larger.
Most conversions don't have any of these accessories yet still end up
with every available inch of space under the hood crammed with batteries
etc., despite also losing much of their trunk floor and/or back seat to
batteries. I suspect you will find that you may not have the luxury of
making the accessories an independent system in this way due to space
limitations.
> It also costs a lot less to replace than the traction
> motor, why increase its wear to idle, even if slight.
The traction motor does not wear out; its brushes do (typically after
1000's of hours of service), and its bearings will eventually wear out.
The cost to renew both of these is much less than the cost of a 3-5HP
motor to run the accessories.
> The added weight is not significant compared to a
> transmission.
But, you are not eliminating the transmission, you are retaining the
differential portion and the housing; you will likely have to retain
some fixed reduction ratio in the form of gears between the motor and
differential, but even if you don't, the entire guts of the automatic
tranny (clutch baskets and planetary gears) weighs about 25lbs. It will
be challenging to find a suitable accessory motor that weighs less.
> The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
> from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
> electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
Feature #1 is sufficient range to be useful and for them to feel
comfortable. While a 30mi range may be enough to be useful for many,
experience has shown that the average person is not comfortable with a
range of less than 100mi. Starting with a heavy base vehicle, loading
it with accessories (consuming valuable battery space and consuming
additional energy), and then compounding the issue by hobbling yourself
with a fixed reduction drivetrain (reducing the real-world efficiency of
a DC drivetrain that must cope with city driving/hills as well as
freeway traffic) is going to make it all but impossible to achieve much
better than 30mi range.
Feature #2 is performance (i.e. acceleration). Once again all that
weight is working against you. So is the fixed reduction drivetrain.
Even selling 100s of EVs constitutes an infinitesimal fraction of the
cars sold annually in the US; it might be unwise to try to cater to
every whim of the average spoiled car buyer. Since you are only looking
to capture a tiny fraction of the market you may be able to focus on
appealing to a more select group.
Selling 100s of EVs would represent a larger success than *any* other
conversion company to date that I am aware of. I don't think that even
Solectria sold 100s of EVs.
I think that you will have great challenges trying to convert a Taurus
to have sufficient performance to be acceptable to potential buyers at a
cost they are willing to pay, with or without the accessories. The
bigger challenge may be locating 100s of people willing to shell out at
least $10k more for an old Taurus just because it has been converted to
electric.
If I were looking at building an EV conversion for the masses, I would
either use a DC traction system with an automatic transmission,
retaining the torque converter, or I'd use an AC traction system with a
single fixed reduction.
With a DC traction system, you must provide a means of protecting the
motor from being damaged due to over-speed if you use a manual
transmission. This is achievable with a rev limiter. You must also
protect the DC motor from damage due to over-current while stalled
(driver holding position on a hill by use of the throttle rather than
the brake). This is automatically provided by the auto tranny's torque
converter, and the auto tranny provides the no shifting benefit you
identified as desirable.
Food for thought, perhaps. Good luck either way! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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Mike,
It is Molex.
Type: C-grid/SL, version G with positive latch
http://www.ttieurope.com/microsites/molex/products_items/wire_to_board/c-gri
d/70066g.cfm
Overview of all the C-grid versions and catalog page ref:
http://www.ttieurope.com/microsites/molex/products_items/wire_to_board/c-gri
d/literature.pdf
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: SIP headers
I need these connectors/sockets (SIP) for the boards I'm working on.
They have a tiny 'MX' on each one. I cannot for the life of me fine
them on the web. Help?
Here's a pic.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/sipconn.jpg
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
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I have a Ford 10.25" Rear End with 4.10's sitting in my back yard if anyone
wants it. Its pretty heavy so I don't know if anyone
is using them for racing use. This is the rear end off my '96 F350. It has a
spun inner bearing and it was cheaper for me to
swap in a used rear end than have the bearing race built back up. It only has
80K miles on it. Shipping from Alaska might be a
pretty penny unless you could get a good deal on a backhaul on the barge or
truck. Anyway, just wondered if its worth the
trouble. Its free to a good home. You-haul.
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
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Has anyone looked at or done any of these kit conversions on a small pickup
chassis? http://www.rodster.com/owners/4x4.htm An
S10 pickup seems like it would be a fairly sturdy chassis for an electric
conversion anyway. I wonder if the fiberglass body
would cut some of the overall wheight of the body/chassis combo and leave more
room and weight capacity for batteries and
electrics. Can anyone whose done an S10 comment on the chassis integrity and
ease to work with for mounting batteries? Too bad I
went with the Mitsu. Maybe my next will be some sort of stylish kit built on a
small pickup platform. Don't some rangers already
come with Ford 9" rear ends?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
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Hey everyone!
Here is a design for some Who Killed the Electric Car? t-shirts.
http://www.evadc.org/images/wktectshirtev1.jpg
. . . and another design at . . .
http://www.evadc.org/images/wktectshirtdesign.jpg
I'll probably do the first design.
If there is enough interest I may be able to print some up.
I need at least 12 orders. Cost would be $25.00 including shipping.
After my expenses are paid, the rest will go to an EV cause. It won't
be much but will be something.
Sizes available would be M, L, XL and 2XXL
Before embarking on this project I spoke to the people handling the
publicity for the movie. Apparently their work ended the day the
movie premiered on June 28 so we are on our own as far as further
advertising like t-shirts.
Chip
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
National Electric Drag Racing Association Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
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