EV Digest 5625
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC Motor torque calculations, choosing accessory motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Anyone else wanna get postal?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) hybrid payback (was Re: Taurus EV)
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Danny's Contentment
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Taurus EV
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Taurus EV
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy "Woodburn at PIR?"???
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Taurus EV
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Taurus EV
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: micro-monorail project needs tech input
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Taurus EV
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Air conditioning gains
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Taurus EV
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: e-volks
by "David Sherritze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: micro-monorail project needs tech input
by Lawrence Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Comparing batteries - was Re: Valence Technology Batteries
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Lee, I have often fantasized about a hot rod City Car being the ultimate
> sleeper on the street. Any Vette blown away by one would have a hard time
> living it down. Of course it would have the words "Electric Car" very big on
> the sides, the front and the rear. You would have room enough to run a high
> voltage string of Hawker 16 amp/hr batteries. You could get a narrowed 9"
> Ford from a Taylor Dunn golf cart. These are so narrow they would allow for
> a tubbed type rear with the rear tires almost touching each other on the
> inner sides of the tires. Since it is so light you would not need a
> transmission. Hey Lee, when are we going to get started on yours :-)
I've never been a racing fan, let alone a drag racer. But it's still fun
to fantasize.
The extreme simplicity, light weight, and strength of the CitiCar frame
does lend itself to a racing version. Rick Woodbury's Tango provides a
glimpse of what one could do with the right parts!
Of course, little would actually be left of the original CitiCar in an
all-out racing version. Probably a new steel pipe frame, with the old
CitiCar plastic body panels on it, and all new running gear.
I sold my old ComutaVan, but think it would have made a better
candidate. It's basically a "stretch" version of the CitiCar. The longer
wheelbase and front battery box would make it easier to keep the front
wheels on the ground. It had a normal rear axle, drive shaft, and front
mounted transmission and motor, too.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> I'm looking to run my AC and power steering off an accessory motor.
> I have two separate loads cycling independently off one motor. If I
> know the max power I need (both AC and power steering running) what
> is the best motor/controller for the job? Is there a type of DC
> motor that, if I supply it the right voltage, will run at a specific
> speed (maybe 1500 rpm) and try to hold that speed under load?
Yes; a PM motor runs at a speed set by the applied voltage. The speed is
directly proportional to voltage. For instance, a PM motor rated at
"120vdc 1200rpm" might only vary from 1000 rpm (heavy load) to 1400 rpm
(no load). If you cut the voltage in half, it runs exactly half as fast.
> Do I need a PWM controller and some kind of governor?
A PWM controller is an efficient way to vary the motor voltage, and thus
its speed. It can also provide current limiting, which will keep you
from burning up the motor if the load is too heavy.
But, you can also do it with a shunt motor and field control. The
armature runs right off your pack voltage. The field is powered from the
pack thru a rheostat. The value of resistance sets the field current,
which sets the rpm. At any given rheostat setting, it acts just like a
PM motor -- rpm is directly related to armature voltage. But in this
case, you can adjust the field to change the speed. This method is also
quite efficient, but shunt motors of appropriate size are harder to
find.
You won't need a speed sensor or governor unless you use a series motor.
A series motor's speed varies widely with load, so you have to sense its
speed and control it.
> I'd also like to shut off the accessory motor if neither the AC nor
> power steering are in use.
Sure, that makes sense.
> PS I have a treadmill motor I'd love to use, just not sure how to control it.
They are usually PM motors. It will work, but many are very cheap and
poorly made.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's a Kubwatt for sale on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330004828679
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would not be surprised if people will pay 12-15k more for branded
conversion. People are paying several thousand dollars extra for hybrids
knowing that the fuel savings will likely never pay back.
I guess it depends on your idea of payback. My Insight has 93K miles on it
over the last 5 years. I bought it for $19000. All my other cars are lucky
to get 20 mpg my Insight has averaged just under 57mpg over it's life.
Using nice round numbers to keep the math simple.
Other cars 100,000 miles / 20 mpg = 5000 gallons of gas X $2.50 = $12,500
spent on gas.
My Insight 100,000 miles / 50 mpg = 2000 gallons of gas X $2.50 = $5000
spent on gas.
So over the last 5 years my $19000 car has saved me roughly $7000. You
can't convince me that driving a hybrid does not payoff. Granted, there are
some cars out there that you can buy for $12,000, but they are usually cheap
stripped down models, not engineering marvels like the Insight.
Of course, I didn't buy the Insight for the savings in gas, I bought it
because of it's squeeky clean emmisions and low (relative to other cars)
environmental impact. The savings is an added feature. Even if gas dropped
back to 99 cents a gallon I would be happy that I have my Insight.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very nicely done. We are so in the stone age over here.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.dannyscontentment.net/dannys_contentment/
>
> Danny in London is video blogging his experiences driving an electric
> car (a little Indian built thing (rEV?))
>
> -Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep! The most incredible EV understatement ever!!!
Mike
To truly realise the reliability we
> associate with EVs, some sort of BMS is required to protect the pack
> from abuse and inform the user that service is required. I am not aware
> of any such system at this time.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OOOo! not only does a bike that looks like it has pedal bike chain on it
have 214 mph limits.. wayafter it takes off I might add, it has whimpy
brakes... and it has Better than Lion batteries...
Like Rod says.. it's a lot easier to write add copy that to actually get
records and time slips the hard way..
Like Earning them...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> They state: "New technology battery packs charge much faster and last
longer than lithium-ion."
>
> I wonder if I can get some of these for my car?
>
> --- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I thought you might all like to know about this:
> > http://www.gowheel.com/evDaytona_motorcycle.html If only I could learn
more
> > about computers in order create world record breaking electrics. Heck, I
end
> > up doing it the hard way by having to go out to the shop. It just seems
like
> > sitting behind a computer would be so much easier :-) For your
information
> > the still standing land speed record for an electric motorcycle at
> > Bonneville Salt Flats is 165.367 MPH set in 1974 by Mike Corbin.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > www.suckamps.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a whole story about charging in EV charge heaven.
Sheesh! there's more power there than I have in my test bench at my shop.
More 240 three phase than a dozzen PFC50s could use.. Damn this is going
to be fun.
There will be NO excuses about charging at the Late Night Nationals at
Portland international Speedway. There will be at least 6 50 amp 240 volt
ports, or more.
Keep in mind with 2 50 amp outlets Joe and I can charge most of the Ev Racer
groups all by ourselves.
If your batteries are not over heating and... just plain over used by the
end of the night... You won't have tried very hard.
Bring it, I will charge it.
Wire your charge port so I can stuff 12000 watts of what ever you need into
your car.
Story when I have time..
Madman
> Now I hope you feel very proud of yourself for teasing us all with "Part
1"
> and no "Part 2" and references to spectacular video but no gratifying
> updates to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php. You've had your fun.
>
> More, please.
>
> Matt Graham
> 300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
> http://www.jouleinjected.com
> Hobe Sound, FL
> To be continued....
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Taurus EV
> Yep! The most incredible EV understatement ever!!!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> To truly realise the reliability we
> > associate with EVs, some sort of BMS is required to protect the pack
> > from abuse and inform the user that service is required. I am not aware
> > of any such system at this time.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
This means that 'Woodburn" at PIR is a no show for the Labor day
weakend? Will"Woodburn " run another weak? I guess Zombie will do more good
at Indy? John gunna be there to show itoff, do a few breakstands? with the
new diffy? So, NEDRA gunna reschedule "Woodburn"?
Hi Bob
The Late Night Nationals at PIR are 8/25 and 8/26.
The RPM Trade Show is 8/30, 8/31, and 9/1.
The White Zombie (and possibly Dragon Rose) will be at both.
The current plan is to leave PIR (Portland OR) for the trade show
(Indianapolis IN) after the last run on 8/26.
No... seriously, that IS the plan :^D
John will not be there, the plan is currently FT and me.
On 7/6/06, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:19 PM
Subject: NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy
>
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
>
> CONTACT:
> Roderick Wilde
> Marketing Director
> National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA)
> Phone: 360-385-7082
> Fax: 360-582-1272
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.nedra.com
>
> NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy.
>
> Indianapolis, Indiana, August 30th through September 1st The National
> Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) has been invited to the first
ever
> RPM Trade Show http://www.aera.org/rpm/attend/index.html to be held at
The
> Indiana Convention Center sponsored by the Automotive Engine Rebuilders
> Association (AERA). They will have a booth along with the well
established
> National Electric Hot Rod Association (NHRA) and the relatively new
Diesel
> Hot Rod Association (DHRA). Keynote Speakers will include Shirley
Muldowney,
> four-time World Champion Top Fuel Driver and Don Schumacher, owner of
the
> U.S. Army Top Fuel dragster. There will be a roundtable discussion
including
> John Force, Don Prudhomme, Hillary Will and Cory McClenathan. This event
is
> being held in conjunction with The Mac Tools US Nationals,
>
http://www.nhra.com/apcm/templates/preview.asp?articleid=2442&zoneid=90&navsource=18
> In addition there will be an E85 ethanol performance competition. NEDRA
is
> looking forward to presenting world class electric drag racing to the
> public. "Plasma Boy"John Wayland's famous Datsun drag car "White Zombie"
> will be on display at the NEDRA booth.
>
> ABOUT NEDRA - NEDRA, The National Electric Drag Racing Association is an
> educational organization that exists to increase public awareness of
> electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage through competition,
> advances in electric vehicle technology. NEDRA achieves this by
organizing
> and sanctioning safe, silent and exciting electric vehicle drag racing
> events.
>
> -END-
>
> Hi EVerybody;
This means that 'Woodburn" at PIR is a no show for the Labor day
weakend? Will"Woodburn " run another weak? I guess Zombie will do more good
at Indy? John gunna be there to show itoff, do a few breakstands? with the
new diffy? So, NEDRA gunna reschedule "Woodburn"?
Seeya
Bob
>
> --
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Race Director
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> OOOo! not only does a bike that looks like it has pedal bike
> chain on it have 214 mph limits..
It looks like standard motorcycle chain to me...
> it has whimpy brakes...
Really? Twin 308mm front discs and a 220mm rear are right up there
performance wise. The fastest produciotn motorcycle (Suzuki Hayabusa)
has twin 320s up front and a 240 in the rear. Something more mundane
like the Zx6R[R] Ninjas have twin 300s up front and a single 220 in the
rear.
> Like Rod says.. it's a lot easier to write add copy that to
> actually get records and time slips the hard way..
First of all, they never said the bike would do 214mph in the 1/4 mile.
The world speed record may stand at 134-odd mph, yet the Killacycle has
exceeded 150mph in the 1/4mi.
Second of all, notice the $90k price tag for this puppy! If they were
making these claims for a $10k bike I would be very skeptical, but at
$90K I am far more willing to believe that they can afford the sort of
technology that might approach these sorts of performance claims. They
may still be way off on their performance claims (who knows if they've
actually built and tested a bike yet), but throwing that sort of money
at the problem I have little doubt they can provide a ride that will at
least achieve the same 150mph-ish top speeds as the (much less
expensive) Killacycle, though perhaps not in the 1/4 mile.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
You must have much different BMS expectations than I do then. ;^>
If you know of at least 6 BMS systems suitable for on-road EVs that are
ready and available for commercial/retail purchase, how about naming
them?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Bring it, I will charge it.
Wire your charge port so I can stuff 12000 watts of what ever you need into
your car.
Might be wise to specify a style of connector. I think blue anderson
175 is currently your connector of choice?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Rich Rudman wrote:
Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
You must have much different BMS expectations than I do then. ;^>
Ah, but was Rich commenting on 6 BMS systems, or 6 "EV understatements"
I can easily come up with EV understatements, but far less BMS systems
available commercially (especially ones that do not cost significantly
more that the rest of the conversion).
And Rudman regs don't count, the charger interface and integration is
still too much of a hack job. (Sorry Rich)
From my interviews with my conversion for hire customer and many "money
in hand" interested parties the market really needs a charger + BMS (or
battery with these things integrated) that has a simple user interface:
"start" switch,
"stop" switch
"charge complete" light
and a "battery requires service" light
A percent charge remaining indicator for the dash would be nice. Users
really don't want to go beyond that. (Looks at the OEM EVs)
Temp compensation, regulation, voltage setup, output current, etc should
be handled by the system (or the installer based on battery manufacturer
requirements). Input current should be set by the cord... ie plug in
the 240 3 prong dryer adapter cordset and the system limits to 30amps.
Plug in the 120VAC cordset and it backs down to 10 or 15 amps. The user
loses some flexibility and choice but it becomes "plug and go"
Ideally the system would be purchased with the battery and the battery
manufacturer would provide a respectable warrenty on the batteries based
on that.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dream on ....
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Funny I know of about 1/2 dozzen...
>
> Madman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Taurus EV
>
>
> > Yep! The most incredible EV understatement ever!!!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To truly realise the reliability we
> > > associate with EVs, some sort of BMS is required to protect the pack
> > > from abuse and inform the user that service is required. I am
not aware
> > > of any such system at this time.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Roger.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The term is "funicular".
Danny
David Sofio wrote:
I'm working on feasibility for a micro-monorail (NOT anything like an
infrastructure project; it would be for maybe four adults, or a bunch of
building material, etc) to get up some difficult terrain to places
higher on
my hillside property.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Mark Farver wrote:
I would not be surprised if people will pay 12-15k more for branded
conversion. People are paying several thousand dollars extra for
hybrids knowing that the fuel savings will likely never pay back.
They are paying a few thousand more, not $10k+ more, and perhaps a
larger difference is that a few thousand is a fraction of the cost of a
new car while the $10K EV premium is anywhere from a few to many times
the full cost of the same car in ICE trim (a quick online search
suggests a 2nd gen (96-99) Taurus should sell in the $1.4-5.6K range).
If it costs $10-15K to do a professional conversion (and make some sort
of profit), how many people will really line up to pay up to $20K for a
used Taurus just because it is electric?
Few I would expect.. I agree wholeheartly that starting with a nearly
valueless "used" chassis is a not going to be a popular idea. Most of
the people with the disposible income to pay a steep "EV premium" for a
conversion are not going to want a "used" car. To most new car buyers
the difference between a $20,000 and a $30,000 car is mostly choice.
There is usually little on the car that justifies the cost difference
and it doesn't amke a huge difference on the monthly payments. Some
more chrome, better accessories, etc, none of which adds up to a $10k
premium. (Hence why the manufacturers really like selling SUVs and
luxury cars, they only cost slightly more to build, and have bigger
margins.)
IMHO if you want an EV conversion business to succeed you start with a
new car priced in the $15k-20k range. (I like the Mazda 3, but something
more mainstream like a Corolla/Camry might be better). You might not
be able to get the manufacturer to sell you a glider, but you can buy
the cars customized. When I talked to manufacturers about fleets I got
offers of below invoice pricing if I was purchasing more than 5 vehicles
a year and they offered many more customization options. (Couldn't get
them to remove the engine, for low volumes they still wanted to be able
to drive it off the line/transport).. they did say that they are setup
to delete most any item from the car, if I was willing to buy enough
vehicles.
Load the vehicles with the power options, leather interior, and alloy
wheels, and side curtain airbags. The stuff car buyers would expect in
a higher end car... get the cheap engine since you'll be recycling it
anyway. Convert it and sell the car as an EV for $29k... and you
probably be able to do a few hundred units.
Problem is I don't think you could do a conversion for $10k. You'd need
to get the conversion parts cost down to maybe half that ($5k). The
batteries and management system would blow that budget alone. Not to
mention motor and controller.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here in S. California, simply leaving the windows open a bit (0.5 to 1
inch) has a noticeable difference on the internal temperature of my
car. I'd imagine a small fan would help considerably. The problem is
that the _ambient_ temperature outside is pretty hot to begin with, so
even if you equalize the inside/outside temp, it's still pretty damn hot
in the car.
Also, my dark colored dashboard radiates considerable heat into the
vehicle. Seems that some kind of reflective cover would help in this
regard. So much so that I feel the heat off it even with the A/C going.
Not as bad as my old '60 Corvair -- had a plain metal dashboard that was
painted _black_ -- you could literally cook an egg on it. Of course,
that car didn't have any A/C anyway.
Danny Miller wrote:
I've seen little solar window fans for a long time, they've been doing
a lot of TV ads for one now.
I have a hard time seeing that little thing moving enough air to keep
the temp down. It's a little centrifugal blower, which was probably
selected because it doesn't use a large outlet like a muffin fan so
the window won't have to be open far and it won't let much rain.
I did have one, but it had the solar cell on the inside of the window,
which really was a bad idea with my window tint.
In an EV, the solar power is not a necessary feature. There's enough
battery power to run a fan for months, or the 12v aux battery can
power it for days. If the solar panel's not enough output to justify
putting one on to charge the main batteries (and it's not), then you
really can't justify it for running loads either. Well it means you
don't need to keep a DC/DC converter idling, and don't need to worry
about wiring to it. But you're probably going to run off the 12v aux
battery anyways, not off a DC/DC directly.
I think the rain and/or theft potential is the big problem. It'd be
nice to use the normal car AC vents with a buried fan to draw out the
air, but it's not going to draw out the air from the higer points on
the vehicle which are by far the bulk of the problem.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Get a solar panel running a muffin fan that keeps the interior vented
while in a parking lot to reduce the build up of heat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The sun's radiation also heats surfaces directly, and no airflow on the
order of a few muffin fans is going to bring it near ambient. Any
shades or better yet effective window coatings (if real, easy to make
bogus claims here) could be extremely beneficial.
It's be cool if you had a car remote that would activate a huge blower
to flush the vehicle's heat out shortly before you walked up to it. Bit
of a security risk to have it open the windows though.
Danny
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Here in S. California, simply leaving the windows open a bit (0.5 to 1
inch) has a noticeable difference on the internal temperature of my
car. I'd imagine a small fan would help considerably. The problem is
that the _ambient_ temperature outside is pretty hot to begin with, so
even if you equalize the inside/outside temp, it's still pretty damn
hot in the car.
Also, my dark colored dashboard radiates considerable heat into the
vehicle. Seems that some kind of reflective cover would help in this
regard. So much so that I feel the heat off it even with the A/C
going. Not as bad as my old '60 Corvair -- had a plain metal
dashboard that was painted _black_ -- you could literally cook an egg
on it. Of course, that car didn't have any A/C anyway.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
> Ah, but was Rich commenting on 6 BMS systems, or 6 "EV
> understatements"
Good point; I hadn't considered that possibility ;^>
> From my interviews with my conversion for hire customer and
> many "money in hand" interested parties the market really
> needs a charger + BMS (or battery with these things
> integrated) that has a simple user interface:
>
> "start" switch,
> "stop" switch
> "charge complete" light
> and a "battery requires service" light
>
> A percent charge remaining indicator for the dash would be
> nice. Users really don't want to go beyond that.
I think you've enumerated a good feature set.
> Temp compensation, regulation, voltage setup, output current,
> etc should be handled by the system (or the installer based
> on battery manufacturer requirements).
Agreed.
> Input current should be set by the cord... ie plug in the
> 240 3 prong dryer adapter cordset and the system limits
> to 30amps. Plug in the 120VAC cordset and it backs down to
> 10 or 15 amps.
Implied here is that the charger should be wide-range or universal
input. If you literally had the charger enforce a different current
limit based on the input cordset, then you wouldn't even need
auto-ranging, etc. but could simply flip a switch, etc. to tell the
charger the intended input voltage and to allow the appropriate cordset
to be plugged in. As I recall my old Lester provided two different
recessed male AC input connections, one for 120VAC and one for 240VAC,
and it was necessary to slide a cover to expose the desired connection
which automatically blocked off the other connection so that both could
not be connected to AC at the same time. It would have been
straightforward to incorporate a switch into this cover mechanism to
tell the charger which input current limit to enforce.
I'd suggest that the current limit be set based on the input voltage
detected rather than which cordset is used, but agree with the basic
priciple. Ideally, I would want the user/installer to be able to
configure the 120VAC and 240VAC current limits as appropriate for their
situation.
> Ideally the system would be purchased with the battery and
> the battery manufacturer would provide a respectable warrenty
> on the batteries based on that.
Even without an off-the-shelf BMS solution some battery manufacturers
will already offer better warranty terms based on use of an approved
charger with their batteries.
Cheers,
Roger.
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OOOo! not only does a bike that looks like it has pedal bike chain on it
have 214 mph limits.. wayafter it takes off I might add, it has whimpy
brakes... and it has Better than Lion batteries...
Come on Rich you know better than that! The chain looks like a 500 series
(5/8" pitch) which is big enough for a WSB machine. The brakes are over a
foot in diameter and are using radial mount calipers, so they're not too far
off state of the art (four pot is 'in' at the moment, stiffer than 6 pot).
It might be missleading to call them floating discs (too noisy for road use)
but they'll be semi floating.
I agree it's vapourware and it's not likely to get many takers at 90K. Looks
like an attempt at attracting investors.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
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On Jul 6, 2006, at 10:53 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
He is breaking his drive train with the torque slam on the start and
at s/P.
Most racers ...ie ICE driven racers can load the drive train until the
Green
light.. John can't because he has to bump up to the lights, and then
the
back lash is still loose when he launches...
Would it be possible to drop around 20 amps on the motor when the tree
starts to count down? This could be a simple controller bypass
resistor. I don't think 20 amps for for a few seconds could
significantly heat the commutator bars but it would provide around 3
ft/lb. of torque to at least take the slack out (it wouldn't really
pre-load it but drastically shorten the hammer stroke.)
Paul "neon" G.
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<SNIP>
Implied here is that the charger should be wide-range or universal
input. If you literally had the charger enforce a different current
limit based on the input cordset, then you wouldn't even need
auto-ranging, etc. but could simply flip a switch, etc. to tell the
charger the intended input voltage and to allow the appropriate cordset
to be plugged in. As I recall my old Lester provided two different
recessed male AC input connections, one for 120VAC and one for 240VAC,
and it was necessary to slide a cover to expose the desired connection
which automatically blocked off the other connection so that both could
not be connected to AC at the same time. It would have been
straightforward to incorporate a switch into this cover mechanism to
tell the charger which input current limit to enforce.
I have seen this done on some industrial equipment I work on as well (it was
208 3phase 50/60hz Vs 380V 400Hz. Yea we get into some weird stuff from time
to time) Seems to work well until the little switch under the cover that
reconfigures the guts breaks and is in setting 1 when the cord is actualy
plugged into the socket for setting 2.
I'd suggest that the current limit be set based on the input voltage
detected rather than which cordset is used, but agree with the basic
priciple. Ideally, I would want the user/installer to be able to
configure the 120VAC and 240VAC current limits as appropriate for their
situation.
I would rather see it based on cordset not voltage. Depending were your at
240V @ ~12A is standard . If by chance you plug into one of these outlets
with your charger and it assumes a 40A or 50A outlet then people will not be
happy. One way to do this is use a non-standard plug on the car/charger end
of the corde and use a few extra contacts to encode the max current draw
avaliable ie all open = 10A 1-2 = 15A 1-3 = 20A 2-3 = 30A 1-2-3 = 40A that
way independent of input voltage the charger will limit the current to the
safe level that the outlet and cord can handle.
The input select / current limit is a nit-pick the bigger issue is the push
button charging. Is there anything out there even close to that today? I
have seen things for 12 to 36V systems but nothing in the higher voltages.
(looking for 156V)
Later,
Wire
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I cannot speak for other customers, but I am still waiting for the original
kit.
Ordered end of May.
I received the motor and adapters, but the 2 battery chargers in the kit are
back ordered and they do not ship the rest of the kit until they come in.
I finally reached them by telephone this past weekend. They seem very
personable when on the phone.
They estimated the middle of July, however these are the same people that
told be they had shipped this order in early June.
Since I do not need the battery chargers, (I have some) I requested by email
July 3 that they ship the rest of the kit and give a refund for the
chargers. They have not responded.
When I talked with them this past weekend they said they were going to shows
and swamped with inquiries. I have been told by previous customers, that
they DO deliver they are just VERY, VERY slow. I have no idea about warranty
work as I have not received enough to try things out.
The previous comments about shipping. They apparently painted the motor and
adapter but shipped them together in crumpled paper. They banged against
each other in shipping and chipped paint off both to bare metal in several
places. A can of spray paint will keep it from rusting but looks like a
patch job.
Buggy is in the garage, motor is mounted and test batteries are in place,
now waiting for the rest of the kit.
My experiences
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 12:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: e-volks
How did e-volks make good on the messed up parts? Or did they? Do they make
good with their customers? Inquiring minds would like to know. Lawrence
Rhodes....
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Philippe wrote:
"I don't catch the difference result between peukert's
effect and ohms' law effect you speak about, for my
understanding seems the same"
Googling Peukert infers that it has to do with
chemical composition of the battery getting out of
balance, lowering the chemical reaction's ability to
generate power just like it had been drained. But
when allowed to rest, the chemicals come back in to
balance, at least part way, and the power producing
capability comes back. Perhaps some energy is lost to
heat, I am not sure.
Ohm has to do with heat energy lost inside the
battery's equivalent of an internal resistor, all
forever lost to heat. Upon further reflection, the
energy lost does appear to be independent of discharge
rate (thank you Lee for your correction). So it looks
like Valence does have a pure Peukert effect of 10%
energy loss vs. 50% for the lead acid battery they
chose when going from 20 to 60A in a U1 module.
Chris
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A guy I worked with in New Zealand had a property on top of a hill and
his boat moored at the bottom with probably about a 45 degree slope (I
remember it as being quite steep). He build a set of stairs down for
access. Then he put an electric winch at the top and built a little cart
that ran on the side rails of the stairs. The winch was geared such
that with about 300 lbs in the cart it would just unspool on the way
down using the drag from the motor and gears to keep from going too
fast. It then ran out to a stop on the dock without the need for
brakes. To go up you pressed a button and the winch would haul you
and/or your gear back up. It was a pretty neat piece of engineering in
that there were no sensors of controls needed to make a safe decent and
only a cutoff switch at the top to 'park' the cart when it came back up.
Lawrence
Danny Miller wrote:
The term is "funicular".
Danny
David Sofio wrote:
I'm working on feasibility for a micro-monorail (NOT anything like an
infrastructure project; it would be for maybe four adults, or a
bunch of
building material, etc) to get up some difficult terrain to places
higher on
my hillside property.
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The way I interpret it as the chemical composition of the surface gets
depleted under high current discharges. I believe this makes it "run
down" on the plate's surface and it behaves pretty much like the battery
is run down. The Peukert exponent is really just a constant based on
how fast diffusion will restore the plates.
I think this is an accurate description, though Peukert's has no
official description of what's happening. I have to note that the
battery technology which maintains output voltage well regardless of
charge state (NiMH/NiCd) is the technology largely unaffected by
Peukert's. That's consistent with my interpretation of it, the plate's
surface becomes depleted somewhat and makes it put out the voltage of a
run-down battery, but for that technology the battery voltage does not
decrease much in a run-down cell.
Another way of viewing Peukert's- which is not a hypothetical
speculation but simply a reinterpretation of the equation- is that a
battery of X percent charge is capable of putting out Y amps without
dropping below Z volts per cell. It is somewhat inaccurate to say that
Peukert's decreases the battery capacity. In fact battery capacity is
still there and available for lower current discharges. Peukert's just
describes limits on how much current you can pull a given charge state
while maintaining useful output voltage.
Danny
Chris Jones wrote:
Philippe wrote:
"I don't catch the difference result between peukert's
effect and ohms' law effect you speak about, for my
understanding seems the same"
Googling Peukert infers that it has to do with
chemical composition of the battery getting out of
balance, lowering the chemical reaction's ability to
generate power just like it had been drained. But
when allowed to rest, the chemicals come back in to
balance, at least part way, and the power producing
capability comes back. Perhaps some energy is lost to
heat, I am not sure.
Ohm has to do with heat energy lost inside the
battery's equivalent of an internal resistor, all
forever lost to heat. Upon further reflection, the
energy lost does appear to be independent of discharge
rate (thank you Lee for your correction). So it looks
like Valence does have a pure Peukert effect of 10%
energy loss vs. 50% for the lead acid battery they
chose when going from 20 to 60A in a U1 module.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Shabino wrote:
> Seems to work well until the little switch under the
> cover that reconfigures the guts breaks and is in
> setting 1 when the cord is actualy plugged into the
> socket for setting 2.
Yep, this is a definite weakness of the switch approach.
> I would rather see it based on cordset not voltage.
> Depending were your at 240V @ ~12A is standard. If by
> chance you plug into one of these outlets with your
> charger and it assumes a 40A or 50A outlet then people
> will not be happy. One way to do this is use a
> non-standard plug on the car/charger end of the corde
> and use a few extra contacts to encode the max current
> draw avaliable
The problem I see is that any means of telling the charger the
approriate input current limit that is independent of the input voltage
is prone to failure and can result in the wrong current limit being
applied.
My view is that the vast majority of cases are that users would take
advantage of a universal input charger to charge at a high rate from a
240VAC outlet at home and opportunity charge from 120VAC outlets away
from home. In this case, providing the user with the ability to set the
current limit for 240VAC input and for 120VAC input allows him to
accommodate whatever size outlets he has available to him. If he has
only a 12A 240VAC outlet, set the 240VAC limit to 12A; if he has a 30A
outlet at home and uses public charging stations in CA with similar
240VAC capability, set the 240VAC limit accordingly. If 120VAC
opportunity charging is performed from outlets with unknown other loads
on the same circuit, set the 120VAC limit conservatively to perhaps 10A
or less.
> The input select / current limit is a nit-pick the bigger
> issue is the push button charging. Is there anything out
> there even close to that today? I have seen things for 12
> to 36V systems but nothing in the higher voltages.
> (looking for 156V)
Depends what you mean by "push button charging". My employer makes
microprocessor controlled universal input PFC chargers that are fully
automatic (not even a push button - just connect AC and DC). 24-72V
nominal output models are standard fare, but we have done models up to
at least 250V. The big limitation here is that they are 1kW nominal.
Brusa makes very nice fully automatic chargers as well, and they
certainly handle the 156V range. About 3kW, I think. I think they are
PFC, but not universal input; Victor at MetricMind would know for sure.
Zivan makes fully automatic chargers that handle 156V packs, but they
aren't PFC and they aren't universal input; you have to buy either a
120VAC or 240VAC input model).
Cheers,
Roger.
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