EV Digest 5629
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Neon John's status
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: Motor Controller For GEM -- help!!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Wikipedia EV conversion
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Taurus EV
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Whr/mile
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle - Danger Will Robinson!!
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 3 Phase motor substitute?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Taurus EV - BMS thoughts
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Taurus EV
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by Brendan Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Taurus EV
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) DC-DC wishlist
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Selling EV's was Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Taurus EV , Tranny Tromas
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Taurus EV
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Taurus EV
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Gast is much quieter than Thomas, IMHO. Mounting
location is also important. Mine is on the motor
mount, with two sets of rubber between the pump and
the mount!
Use a square D switch (KTA-ev.com) because you can set
it to go on at 10 mm Hg, and off at 22 mmHg, which
means (in my case) 4 actuations of the brake before
the pump purrs again.
Hope that helps,
--- "Lewis, Brian K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is
> starting to go out.
> When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not
> always power up right
> away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a
> vacuum.
>
> I have never been happy with the pump. It was good
> for the price I paid
> but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone
> what the horrendous
> noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
>
>
>
> I am looking for other options. Surly with all the
> hybrids on the road
> someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: Pool, Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Evdl (E-mail) <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 12:45:00 -0500
Subject: Neon John's status
He thinks he'll be back on in about a month or so.
Ryan
That's good news, I always enjoyed his posts.
Ben
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
> > I have an '02 GEM, eL.
> > It's brand new for me.
> > And here's what the service manual says to do about
> > it:
> > Motor Controller is in thermal cut back. Allow to
> > cool & the status code should disappear. If
> > problem persists after the Motor Controller has
> > cooled, replace the Motor Controller.
> DC controllers are made by Curtis (1231-8601), about
> $1500; Auburn Grizzly (to 2200; prices approximate);
> DCP Raptor (discontinued)and of course, 'Zillas.
>
> AC controllers: Siemens (discontinued, but available
> from Metric Mind), and there's another, but the name
> escapes me.
Be careful there; the GEM uses a sep-ex motor and runs a GE controller.
Of the options listed by Bob, only Curtis makes a possible sep-ex
replacement for the GE controller, however, sep-ex controllers must be
"tuned" to the parameters of the specific motor they are mated to and
you would need to know the parameters and have a Curtis programmer in
order to do so.
Your first action should be to contact GEM service to see what it would
cost to have the controller replaced or repaired. I don't think the
controller is particularly expensive (should be significantly lower cost
than the series controllers Bob mentions), though I've no idea what sort
of prices GEM service charges for parts and labour.
I'm not sure about your 2002 model, but certainly on later models the GE
controller talks to the dash display/ECU and I would expect you would
run into all sorts of problems if you replaced the motor controller with
something that did not talk to the ECU as expected.
One thing you might be able to try is checking if the thermal switch on
the motor is open or closed. This is a bimetallic switch that alerts
the controller to a motor overtemp condition so that the controller will
reduce the current limit to try to keep from frying the motor. If it
has failed, this might cause your problem. In my experience, the motor
will overheat long before the GE controller, so, fingers crossed,
perhaps you've simply got a defective motor temp sensor or wires between
it and the controller.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVparts.com sells a brand new one for $209.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lewis, Brian K
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
The GM vacuum pump that I got from a junk yard is starting to go out.
When I start the car (turn the car on) it does not always power up right
away. Today it took about 10 mins before I had a vacuum.
I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I paid
but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the horrendous
noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
I am looking for other options. Surly with all the hybrids on the road
someone out there has already tried one in an EV?
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> My BS needle is quivering on this one, too.
>
> It takes over 4 times as much power to go 214 mph vs. 150 mph.
As I have said, I would not bet against their performance claims being
somewhat "optomistic". What I have said, and firmly believe is that
with a pricetag of $90K, one can certainly afford the sort of parts to
build a bike that will at least achieve the same sorts of 150mph-ish
speeds that existing (much less costly) EV bikes have demonstrated.
And, bear in mind that the 214mph claim only seems to appear in Rod's
email on this subject; there is no such claim anywhere on the goWheel
site. Nowhere that I can see do they state a top speed claim; the only
performance claims I see have to do with acceleration and range. The
only speed that is stated is a 97mph cruising speed.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok! Done.
-Mike
On 7/6/06, Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Good heavens Mike, don't be horrified, fix the page!
That's the way that Wikipedia was conceived, and what Rod was asking
people to do.
You don't even have to fix the whole thing, just make some minor
improvements, hopefully others will do the same.
Mike Ellis wrote:
> I visited the page and was somewhat horrified to discover that the
> first type of conversion listed was "Novelty." Novelty also had the
> biggest and the most pictures.
>
> Next was bikes with a picture.
>
> No pics at all for actual cars and trucks.
>
> We can sign up and edit the page. I'd do it but I think maybe someone
> with more EV cred would be a good idea.
>
> -Mike
>
> On 7/4/06, Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Had some extra time today so I spent some time at
>> wikipedia.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
>>
>> It seems that almost all of the categories have very
>> little information and links. I just thought the list
>> could contribute our collective knowlege to make this
>> a better resourse for those looking into EV's.
>> Rod
>>
>>
>
>
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) h:(905)279-5885 c:(416)892-5885
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Stefan T. Peters" wrote:
> I think perchance they are referring to Battery Management Systems,
> not Battery Monitoring Systems. Your regs *are* the bees knees, and
> Lee's designs are almost sublime in their simplicity.
>
> But they are not fully automatic systems. They help *us* manage the
> batts, and properly set our chargers, and even baby-sit the batteries
> at times. Some even let us know when a batt is going bad, if we
> dutifully check the data. But how many current systems simply get
> set once by a batt installer, and manage the batts & charger for us?
> No data needed for us mere humans, besides a colorful yes/no/maybe
> light ;-)
Yes; you summed it up well.
The fundamental reason we don't have good battery management systems
(BMS) is cost. Batteries cost money. BMS cost more money. It's cheaper
to "use up" batteries faster than to use an expensive BMS to extend
their life.
The few BMS that have been used in production are there for safety or
warranty reasons -- not to save money! Lithiums will start fires or
explode without a BMS! Hybrids with nimh batteries would have ruinous
warranty costs without their BMS!
Notice that even industrial EV users, who are fanatics about minimizing
costs, don't use BMS to extend the life of their expensive batteries.
They prefer to require extremely rugged batteries that can't be easily
killed by abusive behavior -- and then abuse them.
> how silly we are... to need all this hand-holding by our... faithful
> little electronic helpers... But the general population does insist on
> it, for whatever reasons...
The public doesn't "insist" on it, but they've come to expect it. People
don't understand the technology, and so make decisions based on cost,
appearance, advertising, and herd instincts (do what everyone else does,
even if it's wrong).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My 5000lb truck (AC vehicle) gets as good as 260 wh/mi. Normally runs
300-350 wh/mi.
A friends 3400lb Saturn (AC vehicle) gets as good as 157 wh/mi.
Normally runs 170-200 wh/mi.
Both are round trip.
Mike
--- jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In my mind this is a good test of efficiency ....
>
> Are there any Whr/mile figures for EV trips? Round trips with
> average
> speed?
>
> Some e-bike folks are claiming 18-20 Whr/mile No pedaling - Round
> trip
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
It's obviously just some kid messing about with photoshop, I wouldn't
sweat it ;)
I'm not sure that it's that simple, or something to be laughed off. "Jay" has
now listed KTA Services, Hi-Torque Electric, and Killacycle.com as "Resources"
on the back of his business card. He has links to a real custom chopper frame
business, and has created a web of real-seeming businesses which cross link
back to him. (As best I can tell, only the frame compnay is a real,
brick-and-mortar business, although it's hard to tell what "Jay's" connection
to that business is. The rest just look like websites with cut and paste
pictures of "products" but no way to order them, find out what and where they
are, etc.) He's fishing for investors and orders for his 200+ MPH motocycles
and "barotex" wheels, and he **may** be a guy who has been convicted of serious
big-money fraud in the recent past. If so, this has the makings of an ugly
situation, which would be good to stay as far away from as possible.
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Excellent! The other issue is charging. It uses the igbt's and at
> least part of the motor to charge the pack. So I would need an
> inductor that is tuned for the circuit. Or would I?
What part of the motor? Most AC-powered battery chargers need inductors.
Some designers have used the motor for this inductor. If that's all they
are doing, then any inductor of the right value can work.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
how silly we are... to need all this hand-holding by our... faithful
little electronic helpers... But the general population does insist on
it, for whatever reasons...
The public doesn't "insist" on it, but they've come to expect it. People
don't understand the technology, and so make decisions based on cost,
appearance, advertising, and herd instincts (do what everyone else does,
even if it's wrong).
Not so sure about that... if you gave the average person this choice:
$20,000 = new electric car, nice meaty instruction/warning manual.
Learning stuff, checking stuff, and setting stuff required.
$24,000 = same new electric car, but with same tiny 20 page manual cars
have had for awhile now. No new habits to learn, just remember to plug
it in every night (no setting stuff, checking stuff, or learning stuff)
Given this comes to the difference between a $410/month payment and a
$340/month payment, most will pay the extra $50/month for the latter.
It's not a matter that they *can't* do all the stuff required to even
get an EV to last even 3 months, it's that they *don't want to*. And
when your spending that much money, most people don't like personal
compromises.
No one even *needs* to buy a brand new car anyways, no matter how
venomously they rationalize it. Otherwise lease returns would be much
more popular (same reliability, almost same warranty as new, much lower
cost). When someone buys a new car, it's because they simply *want* to.
So what they want to and don't want to do and/or accept play a real
factor in the decision of which car they buy.
I think the general public today is smarter then you give them credit
for, Lee. Just because someone can learn something, rarely means that
they want to. And just because someone knows about something, doesn't
mean they want to actually act on that knowledge. It's their hard-earned
money, so they are going to get what they want to get, and they want the
right to be as lazy as they wish.
Apathy compromises a much greater portion of our current social inertia
then ignorance. (Debatable, but something I believe in at the moment)
Hence the emphasis on "insist". The public likely doesn't need it, but I
do believe they will insist on it being there before they fork over
their precious bucks.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Jul 2006 at 22:57, Jack Murray wrote:
> If you've got another idea, put it forward..
Based on your criteria, how about a Toyota Corolla? Recent ones have all
the creature comforts you cite, they're quite popular so plenty are around,
and they seem to run and run and run and run and ... ;-)
I found 1050kg (2300lb) curb weight for a 1997, 1150kg (2525lb) for a 2000.
A 2000 Taurus is much heavier at around 1400kg (3100lb). I'll bet Toyota's
automatic transmissions would be a fair bit more durable than Ford's, too,
if you decided to go with a DC drive to the factory slushbox.
The only downside I can think of would be that they last so long in ICE trim
that glider cost would be appreciably higher.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Jul 2006 at 11:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was under the impression that it would be quite inefficient to keep the main
> motor idling in order to keep the transmission pressure and PS pressure up
> high
> enough to use....
It is, but if you don't need much range, it may not be much of an issue.
You might mitigate the waste of energy by controlling a contactor from the
brake pedal so the idle shuts down when the brake is depressed. When the
driver releases the brake (presumably as the other direction's traffic light
turns amber), the idle resumes and has a few seconds to build up hydraulic
pressure. You might still get the annoying jerk off the line if the trans
pump hasn't had enough time to build sufficient pressure, but it shouldn't
be quite as rough.
This would also provide an additional measure of safety in case of a
controller full-on failure - your first instinct when the car needs a whoa
is to go for the brakes.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 5 Jul 2006 at 22:49, Roger Stockton wrote:
> I don't think that even
> Solectria sold 100s of EVs.
I believe I remember reading on the old Solectria website that they sold a
few more than 300 (probably total of Forces and S-10s), but don't quote me.
That would have been over - what, about a 10 year run?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> I believe I remember reading on the old Solectria website
> that they sold a few more than 300 (probably total of
> Forces and S-10s), but don't quote me.
> That would have been over - what, about a 10 year run?
So you prove me wrong, but make my point just the same ;^>
Even Solectria, converting *brand new* current production gliders and
selling them as brand new cars were only able to average sales of about
30/year, despite the fact that all (or nearly all) of the sales were
sold to government or commercial fleets, not to private individuals.
The EV conversion business is a difficult way to make a living... ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, as a sport bike rider and someone who knows something about fast machines,
I've gotta' comment. This person just took a picture of a Japanese bike (even
I can't tell the difference between them anymore, and I own one!) and
Photoshopped the badging off of it, and stuck it on the site. They didn't even
bother to remove the exhaust can from under the seat. So they're going to
deliver this in two months and they haven't even removed the exhaust yet! And
I got the impression that this was a groud-up bike, not a conversion. Why
exactly is anyone giving this person the time of day!?
Anyway, these Japaneese cheese graders have terrible drag coefficients. If I
was out to make 214 mph machines, electric or otherwise, I'd custom build a
bike or at least start with a 1300cc Hyabusa, which has the least-bad
aerodynamics, and a frame that can support the battery and motor size and
weight. The motors are so small and light on these modern bikes that even with
Li-Ions you're gonna' need the bigger platform to make enough power to sustain
214 mph. You're probably going to need about 300 hp (more than the 246 they
claim) to accomplish that task with a Hyabusa, and even more with the
un-aerodynamic kitchen utensil shown on that site.
I do have to disagree with some of the other list comments though. Even the
modern 600s are built to such extremes that the frame, brakes, etc. could
handle that speed for a single straight line run. A modern 1000cc bike can run
around a track braking and accelerating up to top speeds approaching 180mph
(with a long enough straight) and slamming on the brakes repetitively without
any problems - at least until the tires are shredded up.
The point is that 214mph isn't that hard to do if you start with the right
platform (FYI, from the factory the Hyabusa is govered to 186mph with it's
190hp engine). All you have to do is get a Hyabusa (which Suzuki spent a lot
of money to engineer right) and put a turbo on it to add 100hp and turn the
governor off (causing the bike to now have lifespan measured in hours, not
years). No reason you couldn't make the same amount of horsepower with an
electric motor and Li-Ions. But if this person can't bother to take the time
to Photoshop the exhaust off while they're creating their scam, they shouldn't
waste the time of people who are actually out there building motors and battery
management systems for real projects!
-Brendan Miller
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw the 214 mph on their web page, too. Seems they have now taken
it off -- now why might that be? Why take down such an awesome sales
number? Maybe they monitor this list?
I'll 2nd that 150ish is doable with $90k. The Killacycle shows you
can do 150 on much less than $90k.
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ... What I have said, and firmly believe is that
> with a pricetag of $90K, one can certainly afford the sort of parts
> to
> build a bike that will at least achieve the same sorts of
> 150mph-ish
> speeds that existing (much less costly) EV bikes have demonstrated.
>
> And, bear in mind that the 214mph claim only seems to appear in
> Rod's
> email on this subject; there is no such claim anywhere on the
> goWheel
> site. Nowhere that I can see do they state a top speed claim; the
> only
> performance claims I see have to do with acceleration and range.
> The only speed that is stated is a 97mph cruising speed.
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--- Begin Message ---
Brendan Miller wrote:
> This person just
> took a picture of a Japanese bike (even I can't tell the
> difference between them anymore, and I own one!) and
> Photoshopped the badging off of it, and stuck it on the site.
As someone else observed, it is not a Japanese sportbike, but a Triumph
Daytona 675 <http://www.triumph.co.uk/3942.aspx>. Notice that the
chassis specs are identical.
In all fairness to the goWheel people, they didn't even try particularly
hard to hide this fact, as the webpage it appears on is called
"evDaytona", as in they are selling an EV conversion of a Triumph
Daytona.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't see that LEE. What I see at each EAA meeting I chair are guys
that don't see the value in it. I could not sell them on my tiny
version of Rich's regulators. They won't even go for the Zreg at $2
each. I don't think it's cost. It has more to do with understanding
what you gain from it. Nobody wants to look stupid. So they avoid the
fact that they don't understand how a simple bms works by just not
dealing with it.
Then there is the battery monitoring system. That's been done cheap
too. John's system is a good example of that. I couldn't sell that to
the group either. Even one simpler than John's I couldn't get a nibble
on. Not for cash but figuritively.
It's just too complicated to see for most people to even investigate
it. Even though you and I see it as dirt simple.
I think 80% of EV owners are in two camps. Just buying/building an EV
or just selling one off. So a bms isn't a thought either way.
Mike
>
> The fundamental reason we don't have good battery management systems
> (BMS) is cost. Batteries cost money. BMS cost more money. It's cheaper
> to "use up" batteries faster than to use an expensive BMS to extend
> their life.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> I saw the 214 mph on their web page, too.
You must have got to their page sooner after Rod's post than I did; I
don't recall ever having seen the 214mph claim on it (but it wasn't
until after Rod's post that I visited the site).
> Seems they have now taken it off -- now why might
> that be? Why take down such an awesome sales
> number? Maybe they monitor this list?
I'd say this speaks to their credit (no, I am not "defending" them
because I have any sort of tie to them at all ;^). It suggests to me
that they had over-estimated the top speed potential of the bike, and as
soon as the error was brought to their attention, they corrected their
ad copy. I think it is commendable that they deleted all top speed
claims rather than downgrading their 214mph estimate to something more
probable (like even 150mph), but possibly still unachievable.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What tops your list for EV DC/DC features?
Modularity
Power
Efficiency
Interface
Price
Self fault protection
Load fault protection
...?
--
Martin K
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:26 PM
Subject: RE: DC Motor torque calculations
> On 5 Jul 2006 at 22:49, Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> > I don't think that even
> > Solectria sold 100s of EVs.
>
> I believe I remember reading on the old Solectria website that they sold a
> few more than 300 (probably total of Forces and S-10s), but don't quote
me.
> That would have been over - what, about a 10 year run?
>
> Hi David an' EVerybody;
Solectria gave up on Metro conversions just a tad too soon? With gas at
3.39 a gal, just bought some for my stinkin' lawnmower and for parts
cleaning, it's not easy cleaning stuff with electricity, like paint
brushes!Had Solectria kept doing conversions they may have a going biz? But
ya hafta admit 26k for a Metro wasa bit extreame. But who ELSE would be
building a turnkey EV, as of yet. Lets see how Tesla can offer, at a common
man's price? I think a converter can ask a reasonable mark up on a gas small
car BECAUSE it is electric?
My two gliders worth.
Bob
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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Taurus EV
> On 5 Jul 2006 at 22:57, Jack Murray wrote:
>
> > If you've got another idea, put it forward..
>
> Based on your criteria, how about a Toyota Corolla? Recent ones have all
> the creature comforts you cite, they're quite popular so plenty are
around,
> and they seem to run and run and run and run and ... ;-)
>
> I found 1050kg (2300lb) curb weight for a 1997, 1150kg (2525lb) for a
2000.
> A 2000 Taurus is much heavier at around 1400kg (3100lb). I'll bet
Toyota's
> automatic transmissions would be a fair bit more durable than Ford's, too,
> if you decided to go with a DC drive to the factory slushbox.
> Hi ECVerybody;
As david sez the Toyota wiould be a better bet than the Ford.For Gawd's
sake you DO NOT WANT the Fraud Auto tranny. It' is a piece of shit. Mom had
a Mercury Sable, same as a Taurus, it went through 3 trannies BEFORE I
inherited it when she died. Mom never raced it, just drove arouind town,
like if she had an electric. Boy! That killed it! Had a few strong words
with the Fraud dealer about that one. Took it to Ampco, they took it apart
and sed it was a computer issue, as to shifting smoothly. He sed don't worry
about it, get used to it. I felt better about it when the Ampco guy offered
to buy the car, if I wanted to sell it. I DID sell it, after my kids did
their Florida spring break with it with no issues, other than the sloppy
shifting. I rather they take a almost new car on a long trip, than their"
Poverty Motor Specials " they all had.
Bottom line, if you MUST do a Tauris? Hell, why? They are a crappy
station wagon, can't get stuff in the pill shape anyhow, OK .You didn't say
Wagon? Did ya?The Sedan with a stick shift? Yeah! Go for it, and report back
to us<G>!I might, although David points out that they are hevier than a
Corrola. Howbout a KIA Reo? I was looking in the engine room the other day,
and trying to think"No Engine" Seems that you COULD stuff some batteries in
this one?They are very common around here. And, of course Jettas, gees! they
are a dime a doxen 'round here! Was offered a 95? I think for the taking. It
was an Autiomatic. My kid took it, when I passed, it was SUPPOSED to have a
blown head gasket, but the kid just LOOKED at the engine closly and found
the craped hose imput casting on the block, that was sweating antifreeze.
Quick fix, he haz a nice car, now!Well, it haz a few dings and dunkles. What
is it with some people? Ding and dunk up a almost new car?Hsssh!
> The only downside I can think of would be that they last so long in ICE
trim
> that glider cost would be appreciably higher.
> Yeah, The Jetta I got the engine runs fine, reluctent to tear it out. But
I have a home lined up for it, already.The usual Stupid VW Stuff, won't
crank with key, screwdriver across the solenoid, AC clutch won't pull in
when ya turn it on. My LAST jetta had the same damn issues.
YMMV
Bob
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On Jul 7, 2006, at 3:32 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
What tops your list for EV DC/DC features?
Ability to work on a 192v (or higher) pack.
Followed by: robust enough to last inside a car, price, fault
protection.
Modularity
Power
Efficiency
Interface
Price
Self fault protection
Load fault protection
...?
--
Martin K
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
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As I posted in a previous message, the plan is to get new car dealer(s)
to sign on to an all-electric car, they stock and sell it (finance it,
lease it) they should make more profit selling it than a new car. It
would have some brand name, and basically have the dealer warranty
support. Obviously that is not an easy sell to a dealer, but I think
they may be some large car dealer owners that might go for it for the
social angle, the notoriety, if not the profit potential if it takes
off. The car is marketed as "recycled" or something along those lines.
The car would have new parts for wear items, new brakes, steering,
etc. Basically shiney as new, but "recycled". So the prep on the basic
car would not be trivial.
It would cost the same as a new car, a new Taurus is $20K.
If you give dealer $4k profit, can it be done for $16K?
I have come to the definite conclusion that current lead-acid battery
technology will not work. Not enough range. Too much maintainance and
weight. NiMH or really Lithium is needed. So the cost of Lithium must
come down to make it happen. Perhaps with volume it can.
So it seems for TODAY, the car to bring electric to the mainstream isn't
possible. Perhaps there is a tiny market for a high-dollar electric car
as status symbol, like a H2 was, now it would be the anti-H2, a $50K
vehicle, maybe that is what Tesla is doing. In this case, you can
convert a new car, the cost isn't so important. Maybe that is
profitable niche business, but does it really help the environment?
I think maybe a viable alternative today would be to take a new gas car
and ADD an aux electric drive to convert it to hybrid. Off the top of
my head I'd say the beetle. Add rear-wheel electric drive. Make it go
really fast AWD car, that gets exceptional mileage. Add $10K to the
$17K base price, that isn't too outrageous. But again it's probably a
niche short-term business.
Jack
Steve Powers wrote:
I would choose a Toyota Corolla, 1993 -> ? They are lighter, I think. They
also have a lot of parts availability. They are still everywhere on the road. I
can't go anywhere without seeing them. They are well built. Mine has 130k miles,
still running perfect, never had any issues at all. Also, it is a good conversion
candidate. That is what someone was converting in the 94-95 time frame (but those
were Geo Prisms - which just happens to be the exact same car). There is history
out there, and a proven design.
As for what people want in an EV. This is something I have given a lot of thought to, so here is my opinion. I am sure other people have ideas as well. This is based on the average consumer, not an EV enthusiest or hobby person who may be building / buying for technical challenge.
1. Performance must be similar to a low end ICE car, acceleration / speed - 0
- 45 in about 10 sec, 0 - 60 in 15 sec, top speed 65 - 70 minimum.
2. They want comfort. In other words, they don't want to freeze in the
winter or burn up in the summer.
3. People like accys, but power brakes are most critical. People will live
with manual steering.
4. The car needs to look decent, presentable. People don't want to pay
$15,000 (or even $12,000) for a 15 year old junk yard car with 200,000 + miles
on it, even if it is electric. My story ... don't convert a $150 chasis, you
will regret it.
5. The car needs to be sustainable. Parts have to be out there, available,
and not cost a fortune. If you don't see other people driving that make /
model don't do it. Parts won't be available in the future.
6. The car needs to be simple to repair so someone has a way to get it fixed
when there are issues.
7. People will pay on the order of $6500 - $12,000 for a conversion,
depending on what it is. People have a hard time spending a lot of money on
something unproven, i.e. a home made conversion. Something like a production
RAV4, S10, ... is different.
8. People will not settle for anything less than a usable daily range of
about 35 miles. They may only drive it 6 miles a day, but if you try to sell
someone a car with a 20 mile range, the general population won't buy it.
9. People don't want to shift a lot. Either stick with direct drive, an
automatic, or only 2 gears. If it has 2 gears, keep the clutch.
10. Make sure the batteries are reasonable in cost. If the battery pack
costs $20,000, people won't buy the car.
11. Don't undersize the motor - see item #1 above.
I still think the best bet is the dual mode hybrid conversion that is pure electric for the first 25 miles and then has "unlimited" range in ICE mode. It still has to have the same performance in both modes .... If I had it, I probably would never even run it in ICE mode, but I sure would feel better about driving it knowing that I would never get dtranded. For most people 25 miles would be acceptable if they knew they would never get stranded.
That is just my 2 kW worth. Other people may have different opinions, so I welcome feedback.
Steve
Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Taurus is basically unchanged from '86 to present, 20 years of cars to
pick from. Prone to engine and trans failures. A big trunk. Boring
normal car with lots of standard features. Styling is always
subjective, given Taurus is one of the most popular cars in the USA, a
lot of normal people must like them.
Hey, they run them in Nascar, that frontal area can't be that big an
issue.. ;)
An alternative is the New VW Beetle, but not too many available.
If you've got another idea, put it forward..
Best Regards,
Jack
Death to All Spammers wrote:
The plan is to do 100's of Taurus conversions, seeking out used parts
from other cars would not be viable. Ultimately the question is what
electric car will average people buy, what features do they want.
Look at manual vs automatic trans cars. The vote on that is pretty
clear, even corvettes have more automatic trans sold.
Air Conditioning? Votes are in. Power windows? Power door locks?
Power seats? Tilt steering?
Jack
Is this plan to do 100's of Taurus conversions based on an actual
business plan? You'd need financial resources to take on that
many...or even 10 of these!
Do you have some emotional or logical reason to choose the Taurus?
While there are plenty of conversions in this size range, current
professional converters tend to choose smaller cars (or small pickup
trucks for their higher GVWR). I'd never want something this large in
frontal area, and many others find its styling boring -- the latest
Jaguar sedan looks like a Taurus with a change in grill and hood, so
Ford blandness seems to be contageous.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
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On 6 Jul 2006 at 8:18, Roderick Wilde wrote:
> I have often fantasized about a hot rod City Car being the ultimate
> sleeper on the street.
Just as long as you were driving on a straight, clear, smooth road.
Citicars and Comuta-cars are fine until you have to turn them, stop them, or
negotiate any bumps in the road. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Though I mentioned the Corolla as a conversion candidate earlier, I'd have
to agree with Roger that for most people an converted used ICE is going to
be relatively low in appeal.
What's been recently successful in EVs? Scooters and E-bikes, because
they're cheap (many are almost priced like toys) and limited range doesn't
matter (few people want to ride more than a few miles). Sparrows, because
they're different and cool. What else? EV-1s, one could argue, which also
fit into the "different and cool" category. Possibly RAV4-EVs and Ranger
EVs.
Most people don't base their vehicle purchasing decisions entirely (or even
much) on rationale. I could be wrong, but my sense is that a plain vanilla
car that looks like an ordinary $5k used car, but costs $15k or more, is
going to have trouble justifying its price.
Most folks will require at least basic comfort - quiet, good sealing against
weather. Thus I suspect that rules out many kit cars, which is too bad.
I'd like to say what's ruled IN, but I just don't know what the answer is
for sure.
Can anybody think of a conversion company that has lasted more than 5 years
or so, without having another business (selling EV parts, contract
engineering, working on ICEs) as its primary focus? Even Solectria evolved
their business to be mainly a systems and component suppy and integration
engineering operation. I can't think of any, but there might be one or two.
Regardless, it's a tough climb.
Seems to me that the person who is serious about starting a conversion EV
business would do well to commission some market research to determine what
the market will support in design, styling, and features; and what price it
will bear. I think this is what's been missing in the business plan of all
or nearly all conversion companies. Maybe the reason is that if one carried
out such research, he might abandon the idea altogether. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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