EV Digest 5630
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: An Automotive Zoo, Horns for EV's
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: sick PMC-25
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by Brendan Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle - Danger Will Robinson!! Update.
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Taurus EV
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: battery box clearance
by "Steven Potter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: White Zombie hammering
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) 3 Phase motor substitute?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: battery box clearance
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV digest 5629
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: battery box clearance
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hacked Old Mail Truck
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV digest 5629
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: battery box clearance
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Taurus EV
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is the one that will be the "voice" of my EV. They call it the
"hammer" and it is a quad train horn. It is pretty light weight even though
it is all metal construction and I already have the compressor and air tank
for the air lift system. These things are LOUD! , not the toy horns you see
that run off 12 volts! I hooked this thing up and it about took the rest
of the hair off my head!
:-)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140005621750&ih=004&category=60203&ssPageName=STORE:PROMOBOX:NEWLIST
Why not?
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:40 AM
Subject: Fw: An Automotive Zoo, Horns for EV's
JC Whitney - Everything AutomotiveHi EVerybody;
Check out "train Horns" Just the thing for yur EV!
Giving a Hoot!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: JC Whitney Catalog
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 8:11 AM
Subject: An Automotive Zoo
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm I wonder if there is some sort of thermal / current feedback on the
controller to keep if from cooking. Could be something drifted / bad solder
that is causing the controler to think the current / temp is higher than
expected. Got some photos of the guts of the controler?
Later,
Wire
From: Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: sick PMC-25
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 21:05:20 -0700
I have a Jet Industries Ford Courier
with a PMC-25 going into a GE motor.
I checked the motor brushes as suggested before. They look fine
( about 1" long, with nice smooth curved surfaces)
It worked fine for several years, then about a month ago I couldn't
get more than 180ish amps out of it.
then 2 weeks ago I couldn't get more than 80ish amps.
I searched the web, found an old article regarding bad power resistors.
I carefully opened the PMC-25, saw two very over-heated looking
5watt power resistors and replaced them.
Sadly, there is no change. in the cool of the morning I can get
80 amps. then at lunchtime (when it is 80 outside), 20-30 amps
as I try to go up a short hill.
Any suggestions? Anyone have a schematic for this WAY old controller
(No, Curtis does NOT have the drawings anymore. Nor will Flight
Systems venture to repair it. Very scary to send in a photo and hear
them speaking at the other end of the phone; "You ever see one of these?
Nope, me either.")
thanks
jolly roger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I stand corrected; it's based on an English cheese grater (referring to the
aerodynamics). I should have said "current-era Japanese styled
sport-motorcycle," and not have said "Japanese bike" - my apologies. However,
since England and Japan are both in this same universe, the same laws of
physics apply. Bad aero is bad aero. This choice makes the top speed claim
even more unreasonable based on their horsepower claim.
I see they've taken the wild 214mph claim off their page (yes, I saw it there
too). Though they still have the wild 2.4 sec 0-60 time, which will not happen
on this short wheelbase bike (unless they are talking about 0-60 kph or 60 ft
times, which would be misleading at best). And how does Ferrari feel about the
"Ferrari Red" paint color? That's a trademarked name, and they have sued
others for similar infringements. That should soon disappear, too.
The point is that it's a scam, stop defending them. If I were Bill, Jim or the
guys at KTA, I'd nip this in the bud and have them remove that association from
the card of this unethical "company." This is bad for anyone who is trying to
do legitimate business, especially those they are associating themselves with.
If they said they wanted advice because they were going to build a prototype
that would be defensible. Putting a "place an order now" button on a web page
that implies that the first unit could be delivered on August 18, when they
could never deliver a tested machine in that time frame, is called fraud! Not
to mention that, according to my understanding (please correct me if I'm
wrong), asking for a $1000 deposit on a vehicle that isn't built yet is illegal
(due to problems with scammers like this one). But perhaps that only applies
to cars.
-Brendan Miller
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 03:59:42PM -0700, Brendan Miller wrote:
> Not to mention that, according to my understanding (please
> correct me if I'm wrong), asking for a $1000 deposit on a vehicle that isn't
> built yet is illegal (due to problems with scammers like this one). But
> perhaps that only applies to cars.
I bought my 2001 Prius a year before it was built on a refundable $500 deposit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brendan Miller wrote:
> However, since England and Japan are both in this same
> universe, the same laws of physics apply. Bad aero is
> bad aero. This choice makes the top speed claim even
> more unreasonable based on their horsepower claim.
You have reason to believe that for some reason English aero is
inherently poorer than Japanese bikes of similar appearance? ;^>
I can't find any performance specs online for the Daytona675, but the
2003 600 with just 110bhp had an estimated top speed of 165mph which
suggests the aero isn't all that bad. I can appreciate that the goWheel
folks might have optimistically expected near 200mph given that they
predict having over 2x the HP available on their electric version.
> The point is that it's a scam, stop defending them.
Nonsense; it hasn't been proven a scam. The performance claims may be a
bit exaggerated/optimistic, but I think the fact that the top speed
claim/estimate was immediately removed as soon as people in the know
questioned it suggests that the goWheel people are trying to keep their
ad copy realistic and not mislead people.
I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when they
seem to be making the right motions.
With its $90k pricetag, there's little danger of me (or anyone else on
this list, I suspect ;^) being personally affected by their success or
failure in meeting their performance objectives ;^>
I wish them the best of luck; I certainly believe that at this price
level rather high performance levels are possible, though they would
probably be lucky to sell more than a handful of bikes even with this
sort of performance. After all, how many t-zero's has ACP sold?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK - a little more noodling around, and I find: Orange County Superior Court
papers identify "E J Lashlee", also identified as "Jay Lashlee", as a man who
went to prison in 2003 on federal tax fraud charges, and identify "Jay
Lashlee's" wife as "Rosalie Ratilla". TIMOTCA, one of the numerous
organizations which share a phone number and postal address with "GoWheel.com"
has "Jay" - also identified as J. Lashlee, Trustee, listed as the
"International Advisor", and "Rose Ratilla" listed as "International tour
manager" GoWheel.com has a contact card for "Rose Lashlee" and "Jay Lashlee".
So I'm thinking that the "Jay" who has been talking to people may well be the
same "Jay Lashlee" who went to prison in 2003. If so, here's a description of
what he was involved in a few years ago, from the federal indictment of other
people involved in the multi-million dollar Ponzi scheme called The Genesis
Fund:
"From in or about May 1998 to in or about June 2002, defendants JOHN S. LIPTON,
MARLYN D. HINDERS, DAVID L. JOHNSON, RICHARD B. LEONARD, WILLIAM H. NURICK,
VICTOR H. PRESTON, WILLIAM TAYLOR-FRASER, DENISE TAYLOR-FRASER, and TERESA R.
VOGT (referred to collectively herein as "the defendants"), together with
co-conspirators Edward J. Lashlee and Michael Putnam and others known and
unknown to the Grand Jury, persuaded and caused others to persuade hundreds of
investors to invest in the Genesis Fund by falsely telling them or causing them
to be told that their money would be pooled and invested in highly-profitable
forex trading. The defendants and their co-conspirators concealed from
investors and others that the Genesis Fund managers stopped using virtually all
investor funds for forex trading in or about May 1998 as a result of court
injunctions against the Genesis Fund in Ireland and Hong Kong. Instead,
beginning in or about May 1998, the defendants and their
co-conspirators used investorsâ money to enrich themselves, as well as to
make payments to investors to induce them and other investors into believing
that the Genesis Fund was earning large profits. A Ponzi scheme is a fraud
scheme whereby investors are lured to a particular investment by the promise of
high returns, but rather than investing the funds in the touted investment, the
perpetrators of the scheme use the new investorsâ funds to pay money to other
investors as false profits in order to maintain the appearance that the
investment is earning the promised high rate of return. From at least in or
about May 1998, the Genesis Fund was a Ponzi scheme. Collectively, the Genesis
Fund investors entrusted over $80,000,000 with the defendants and their
co-conspirators from in or about May 1998 to in or about June 2002."
Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It's obviously just some kid messing about with photoshop, I wouldn't
sweat it ;)
I'm not sure that it's that simple, or something to be laughed off. "Jay" has
now listed KTA Services, Hi-Torque Electric, and Killacycle.com as "Resources"
on the back of his business card. He has links to a real custom chopper frame
business, and has created a web of real-seeming businesses which cross link
back to him. (As best I can tell, only the frame compnay is a real,
brick-and-mortar business, although it's hard to tell what "Jay's" connection
to that business is. The rest just look like websites with cut and paste
pictures of "products" but no way to order them, find out what and where they
are, etc.) He's fishing for investors and orders for his 200+ MPH motocycles
and "barotex" wheels, and he **may** be a guy who has been convicted of serious
big-money fraud in the recent past. If so, this has the makings of an ugly
situation, which would be good to stay as far away from as possible.
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
---------------------------------
Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just
radically better.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 06:40:20PM -0400, David Roden wrote:
> Most people don't base their vehicle purchasing decisions entirely (or even
> much) on rationale.
Isn't that the truth.
> I could be wrong, but my sense is that a plain vanilla car that looks like
> an ordinary $5k used car, but costs $15k or more, is going to have trouble
> justifying its price.
You are likely correct, but I do have an interesting data point. The AC
Propulsion conversions which look like ~4K used cars all sold in the 20Ks at
auction.
I'm sure that the incredible rarity of these cars pushed the value up. I
wonder how much you could sell the 100th copy of these for?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Dave Cover
> I have provision for
> airflow between the cells down to another airspace in the bottom of
the
> battery box. I'm going to
> drill vent holes in the bottom for the outlet. This will allow the
> byproducts of cell venting to
> exit safely out the bottom.
Since hydrogen is lighter than air, wouldn't it be better to contain it
and vent it from the top of the box rather than trying to force it to
flow down? Seems to me like a mostly vertical vent pathway would work,
even without powered exhaust. ??
Steven Potter, Toronto
'98 Ranger
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch, 1.5V drop for the SCRs, I thought it was lower on the hockey puks.
1000W in the diode seems high, but then again, that is for only a few
seconds.
The lost of 1.5 volts near the end of the run may be an issue but if it
allows the torque to got from X to Y without a pause, the driveline
stays loaded and the beast is easier to tame.
It is so much fun playing with other peoples cars.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 7, 2006, at 7:20 AM, Lewis, Brian K wrote:
I have never been happy with the pump. It was good for the price I
paid
but it is embarrassing having to explain to everyone what the
horrendous
noise is on an otherwise quite ride.
That pump is largely an automotive orphan now days so I have to agree
about getting another option (perhaps Volvo could source it?)
I would recommend making the bracket for your new pump attach to the
battery box. Lots of water and Lead - both good sound deadeners! The GM
pump in the Pickup I built was attached to the front battery rack and
was not very loud (mostly just some exhaust noise - needs a muffler.)
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
option 1
Go to the local electric motor shop and ask for the smallest 3 phase
motor. I believe you will find it is IEC 1/5- 1/2 HP These are the lub
pumps on industrial machines. Stick a blower on it and a restrictor
plate to give some loading capability.
option 2 ( not sure what you mean by low amps, < 1A or < 1 RR(Rich
Rudmen = 50A) < 1 JW (John Wayland = 2000A)
If the amps are not the issue, used 3 phase pump motors in the 1 to 5 HP
range are all over. I trip over them at work, scattered around the back.
option 3
Just get a 3 phase power transformer as used in machinery to create the
24 VDC or 110 volt control voltage. It has a 3 phase primary and a
single phase output and a transformer is a model for a motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ability not only to provide enough DC for fans, lights, heater (in
other words - lots of juice ;) but also the usability as a battery charger
to keep the auxillary battery fresh and charged.
mm.
>
> On Jul 7, 2006, at 3:32 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
>
>> What tops your list for EV DC/DC features?
>
> Ability to work on a 192v (or higher) pack.
>
> Followed by: robust enough to last inside a car, price, fault
> protection.
>
>> Modularity
>> Power
>> Efficiency
>> Interface
>> Price
>> Self fault protection
>> Load fault protection
>> ...?
>>
>> --
>> Martin K
>>
>>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Las Cruces, NM, USA
> http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey All
All I have to say is little did I know that when I asked a little favor to
get some insight on a project I was contacted about that it would involve FBI
profiling, LMAO! Well that, and the fact that I'm really glad you guys "LIKE"
me, lol. I opened my mail tonight to an all out feeding frenzy and like so
many other topics there are many opinions and "camps" where even the best seem
to fight about what's actually obtainable. Kind of made me wonder how many of
you guys Google'd up my name when I came aboard. I'm also chuckling that I'm
super happy having not "Photoshopped" pics of a Siamese'd 8" motor and listed
it for sale last year, LMAO!!!!
Just so people know the info at the web site was removed and or adjusted
after Father Time called him yesterday. I do know that he'd been working with
others on the list and that he was reffered to me and that he has been quick to
fix what's been brought to his attention. I believe that anything brought to
light will either wither and die or bloom, so I'm hoping I could ask everyone
to maybe let this settle a bit.
Another fun fact is, I told Jay that I'd be willing to "sharpen my pencil"
(before any postings) on the first motor, but was told it wasn't nessessary and
that he expected me to make a profit, just something to chew on. Anyway I've
been asked (along with others) to allow some breathing time, which I will honor.
For those who were possibly looking out for me, thanks, and to think you guys
call me passionate, OMG!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought about that, but for other reasons I went with a downward flow. Here's
my logic, such as
it is.
- Hydrogens desire to rise up is probably easily offset by the modest amount of
airflow the fans
will provide. I was primarily providing the air for cooling, so the purging is
a side benefit.
- If the cells vent and moisture builds up, I'd rather try and move that down
than up. If I'm
moving air upwards, the moisture (if any builds up) still wants to run down,
fighting with the
airflow. If you provide drainage, it will have to be on the bottom anyway.
- It's easier to get the vented gasses (and any liquid) out of the car at the
bottom. If I go up,
I have to route everything through the passenger compartment.
- If I want to hose the cells down, I'll already have good drainage out the
bottom.
I was hoping to build my battery boxes out of 1/4 inch HDPE, but my first
attempts at plastic
welding have been pretty lame. (If anyone can refer me to a good resource, I'd
appreciate it. I
don't have time to find a course at a local tech college.) I may go with a more
substantial metal
frame and just line the sides with HDPE sheets. I'll keep the bottom fairly
open so everything can
exit the bottom. I'm also planning on Rhino coating the frame to protect it
from everything.
I'm strapping my cells together into 8 cell blocks. Each block has strapping
tape around the
middle, top and bottom. THe first wrap is traditional strapping tape, the kind
with the the
visible fibers running through it. Around this I have another layer of clear
strapping tape,
mainly to protect the first layer.
I'll assemble the blocks together into a 2 block by 4 block pack, for a total
of 64 cells. There
will be two of these in the back of my car for a grand total of 128 cells. The
eight blocks will
fit snugly into their respective boxes. The strapping will do most of the work
of containing the
swelling, but the snug box will also help.
After that, I'll get the electronics working and the car drivable. Then add
cells in the front and
behind the seats. Shooting for a total of 300 cells.
At least, that's my plan right now. Let's see what Murphy's law throws my way
next.
Dave Cover
--- Steven Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> > Behalf Of Dave Cover
>
> > I have provision for
> > airflow between the cells down to another airspace in the bottom of
> the
> > battery box. I'm going to
> > drill vent holes in the bottom for the outlet. This will allow the
> > byproducts of cell venting to
> > exit safely out the bottom.
>
> Since hydrogen is lighter than air, wouldn't it be better to contain it
> and vent it from the top of the box rather than trying to force it to
> flow down? Seems to me like a mostly vertical vent pathway would work,
> even without powered exhaust. ??
>
> Steven Potter, Toronto
> '98 Ranger
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > On Jul 7, 2006, at 3:32 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> >
> >> What tops your list for EV DC/DC features?
> >
1. The ability to connect to a nominal 360 volt pack. (192 to 450 volt range)
2. The ability to maintain a 12 volt car battery. Voltage will adjust up to
charge and lower to a
float level. The DC-DC does not have to do it all, just support/maintain the 12
volt battery.
3. Make them modular so I can plug on another module or two to get the wattage
I need.
4. Make it smarter than me. Over/under voltage protection. Over current
protection.
5. Make it so I can afford it, it's just an accessory. There are affordable
alternatives, but this
would be very nice.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm pretty sure if you would go that route Ford will want you to be a
Qualified Vehicle Modifier (QVM). I looked into this back in 1994
when Ford was offering their Electric Vehicle Glider and Qualified
Vehicle Modifier Program to EV conversion companies. The program is
similar to ones for builders of Ambulances, RVs and other conversions
where Ford chassis are used. They sent me a very detailed
questionnaire asking for projected sales volume, production capacity,
knowledge of automotive design and development, CAD/CAE capabilities,
facility capabilities and business structure.
Ford is going to want to have a thorough knowledge of the conversion
companies background before embarking with a partnership to sell
conversions. There is a lot of hoops to go through.
Although alot of us are quite capable of building sound conversions
in our garages. Meeting all those QVM requirements is going to be a
challenge unless you're a well established service facility.
However, once you've demonstrated those capabilities and have a
prototype built it shouldn't be a problem. But I'm not sure if Ford
has the EV Glider Program anymore. The program was to provide rolling
chassis of particular lines of vehicles.
But I think if the EV Glider Program didn't exist they would still
want the conversion company to meet the requirements of the existing
QVM program if they were to sell conversion vehicles from their lots.
But I see no issues with starting small and doing onesies and
twosies. I actually received a phone call today from someone who
wants to have their car converted.
But there is actually money to be made in the EV business. Maybe I
shouldn't mention this. I've repaired over 200 electric scooters
since starting ScooterWerks, LLC. Mostly kids Razor scooters, Currie
based scooters, all kinds of electric bikes and now I'm servicing the
new e-Max scooters. Also doing warranty work for the Sharper Image,
Toys R, Us and extended service plans from other stores. I've had
people travel from other states to have their scooters repaired. A
women drove over an hour today from Virginia to pick up her e-Bike I
was working on. Plus I can fit more scooters in the garage then cars.
I currently have 4 I'm working on now. I've had up to 23 at one time.
The bike repair shops won't touch them so they send them my way. I'm
also getting alot of calls from people with Personal Mobility
Scooters. The calls I get are from people from out of town and their
scooter gets damaged on the plane or they forget to bring their
charger. So there are niches to be tapped.
As far as converting a Taurus. They are on the heavy side aren't
they? I don't know much about them. I think converting any gas car to
run on electric is revenge against the auto makers so I would say go
for it. Rip the gas guts out of the sucker and make it electric.
As far as EVs making a difference, I think they do. My friend who
lives down the street from me, Rob Neighbor, has a nice electric
Fiero. One day we were at the same intersection next to each other
waiting for the light. The people behind us had the benefit of not
inhaling fumes from our cars if they were gas. If you think in those
terms every little bit helps.
See ya
Chip Gribben
ScooterWerks
http://www.scooterwerks.com
On Jul 7, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
As I posted in a previous message, the plan is to get new car dealer
(s) to sign on to an all-electric car, they stock and sell it
(finance it, lease it) they should make more profit selling it than
a new car. It would have some brand name, and basically have the
dealer warranty support. Obviously that is not an easy sell to a
dealer, but I think they may be some large car dealer owners that
might go for it for the social angle, the notoriety, if not the
profit potential if it takes off. The car is marketed as
"recycled" or something along those lines. The car would have new
parts for wear items, new brakes, steering, etc. Basically shiney
as new, but "recycled". So the prep on the basic car would not be
trivial.
It would cost the same as a new car, a new Taurus is $20K.
If you give dealer $4k profit, can it be done for $16K?
I have come to the definite conclusion that current lead-acid
battery technology will not work. Not enough range. Too much
maintainance and weight. NiMH or really Lithium is needed. So the
cost of Lithium must come down to make it happen. Perhaps with
volume it can.
So it seems for TODAY, the car to bring electric to the mainstream
isn't possible. Perhaps there is a tiny market for a high-dollar
electric car as status symbol, like a H2 was, now it would be the
anti-H2, a $50K vehicle, maybe that is what Tesla is doing. In
this case, you can convert a new car, the cost isn't so important.
Maybe that is profitable niche business, but does it really help
the environment?
I think maybe a viable alternative today would be to take a new gas
car and ADD an aux electric drive to convert it to hybrid. Off the
top of my head I'd say the beetle. Add rear-wheel electric drive.
Make it go really fast AWD car, that gets exceptional mileage. Add
$10K to the $17K base price, that isn't too outrageous. But again
it's probably a niche short-term business.
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, I for one am willing to give Jay the benefit of the doubt. I would
also suggest he join this group. I had a lengthy conversation with him
today. He is very personable, but so are the very best con men in the
industry. Here is what I see different about Jay. He is very open to hearing
our opinions and taking our advice. I highly suggest he join this group. In
the past I have dealt with Corbin Motors and they would not listen to
anybody. They knew it all. The biggest mistake they ever made, and I told
this to Jay, was putting out speed and range specifications before they even
built one single prototype. Later in life after Myers bought out the assets
of Corbin I had contacted them. I suggested they join the EV Discussion List
and told them the wealth of knowledge here. I also informed them of all the
stupid mistakes Corbin made so that they would not do the same thing. It was
a very polite and helpful letter. It was in no way like my letters
responding to The Madman when he needs to be reeled in. They did not even
have the curtsey to respond to my email. My feeling is that Jay has bit off
a big chunk here on an extremely short time frame. I feel we should all
allow him enough rope to hang himself or come through with a viable product.
After all we only have to wait a couple months to see the proof in the
pudding or the rubber on the road.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
Hey All
All I have to say is little did I know that when I asked a little favor to
get some insight on a project I was contacted about that it would involve
FBI profiling, LMAO! Well that, and the fact that I'm really glad you guys
"LIKE" me, lol. I opened my mail tonight to an all out feeding frenzy and
like so many other topics there are many opinions and "camps" where even the
best seem to fight about what's actually obtainable. Kind of made me wonder
how many of you guys Google'd up my name when I came aboard. I'm also
chuckling that I'm super happy having not "Photoshopped" pics of a Siamese'd
8" motor and listed it for sale last year, LMAO!!!!
Just so people know the info at the web site was removed and or adjusted
after Father Time called him yesterday. I do know that he'd been working
with others on the list and that he was reffered to me and that he has been
quick to fix what's been brought to his attention. I believe that anything
brought to light will either wither and die or bloom, so I'm hoping I could
ask everyone to maybe let this settle a bit.
Another fun fact is, I told Jay that I'd be willing to "sharpen my pencil"
(before any postings) on the first motor, but was told it wasn't nessessary
and that he expected me to make a profit, just something to chew on. Anyway
I've been asked (along with others) to allow some breathing time, which I
will honor.
For those who were possibly looking out for me, thanks, and to think you
guys call me passionate, OMG!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm... well, heat does rise so cooling should be more effective venting
out the top.
Moisture. Most people don't realize that water vapor is lighter than
air, not heavier. Now if it's a mist- water droplets- those are
heavier. But high humidity air is lighter.
Now the idea of droplets on the surfaces... it would take an awful lot
of airflow to move those against gravity. I see where a lot of liquid
would be in trouble, but that's trouble either way. Liquid should have
its own drain path, not rely on a fan to draw it out.
Danny
Dave Cover wrote:
I thought about that, but for other reasons I went with a downward flow. Here's
my logic, such as
it is.
- Hydrogens desire to rise up is probably easily offset by the modest amount of
airflow the fans
will provide. I was primarily providing the air for cooling, so the purging is
a side benefit.
- If the cells vent and moisture builds up, I'd rather try and move that down
than up. If I'm
moving air upwards, the moisture (if any builds up) still wants to run down,
fighting with the
airflow. If you provide drainage, it will have to be on the bottom anyway.
- It's easier to get the vented gasses (and any liquid) out of the car at the
bottom. If I go up,
I have to route everything through the passenger compartment.
- If I want to hose the cells down, I'll already have good drainage out the
bottom.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
>> I have often fantasized about a hot rod City Car being the ultimate
>> sleeper on the street.
David Roden wrote:
> Just as long as you were driving on a straight, clear, smooth road.
> Citicars and Comuta-cars are fine until you have to turn them, stop
> them, or negotiate any bumps in the road. ;-)
There aren't many turns, bumps, or fast stops on a drag strip :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip, I appreciate the info. The plan was to approach specific dealers,
not Ford itself, since a dealer that would be interested would be
forward looking and might like to "outdo" the corporate guys. I don't
know a dealers legal obligations, but I would assume a converted taurus
would be legally sold as a used car, I don't think there are any
restrictions on a dealer when selling used cars, could be wrong though.
But make no mistake, even a maverick ford dealer will need assurances
the ev car performs as advertised, and is top quality worthy of risking
his reputation. EV's will make a difference when they are more than 1%
of cars..
I'm still pursuing the electric outboard business, which is low-risk and
doesn't require outside financing or anything more than a product and
customers, and as you mention about scooters, outboards are smaller and
ship UPS. :)
Jack
Chip Gribben wrote:
I'm pretty sure if you would go that route Ford will want you to be a
Qualified Vehicle Modifier (QVM). I looked into this back in 1994 when
Ford was offering their Electric Vehicle Glider and Qualified Vehicle
Modifier Program to EV conversion companies. The program is similar to
ones for builders of Ambulances, RVs and other conversions where Ford
chassis are used. They sent me a very detailed questionnaire asking for
projected sales volume, production capacity, knowledge of automotive
design and development, CAD/CAE capabilities, facility capabilities and
business structure.
Ford is going to want to have a thorough knowledge of the conversion
companies background before embarking with a partnership to sell
conversions. There is a lot of hoops to go through.
Although alot of us are quite capable of building sound conversions in
our garages. Meeting all those QVM requirements is going to be a
challenge unless you're a well established service facility.
However, once you've demonstrated those capabilities and have a
prototype built it shouldn't be a problem. But I'm not sure if Ford has
the EV Glider Program anymore. The program was to provide rolling
chassis of particular lines of vehicles.
But I think if the EV Glider Program didn't exist they would still want
the conversion company to meet the requirements of the existing QVM
program if they were to sell conversion vehicles from their lots.
But I see no issues with starting small and doing onesies and twosies.
I actually received a phone call today from someone who wants to have
their car converted.
But there is actually money to be made in the EV business. Maybe I
shouldn't mention this. I've repaired over 200 electric scooters since
starting ScooterWerks, LLC. Mostly kids Razor scooters, Currie based
scooters, all kinds of electric bikes and now I'm servicing the new
e-Max scooters. Also doing warranty work for the Sharper Image, Toys R,
Us and extended service plans from other stores. I've had people travel
from other states to have their scooters repaired. A women drove over
an hour today from Virginia to pick up her e-Bike I was working on.
Plus I can fit more scooters in the garage then cars. I currently have
4 I'm working on now. I've had up to 23 at one time. The bike repair
shops won't touch them so they send them my way. I'm also getting alot
of calls from people with Personal Mobility Scooters. The calls I get
are from people from out of town and their scooter gets damaged on the
plane or they forget to bring their charger. So there are niches to be
tapped.
As far as converting a Taurus. They are on the heavy side aren't they?
I don't know much about them. I think converting any gas car to run on
electric is revenge against the auto makers so I would say go for it.
Rip the gas guts out of the sucker and make it electric.
As far as EVs making a difference, I think they do. My friend who lives
down the street from me, Rob Neighbor, has a nice electric Fiero. One
day we were at the same intersection next to each other waiting for the
light. The people behind us had the benefit of not inhaling fumes from
our cars if they were gas. If you think in those terms every little bit
helps.
See ya
Chip Gribben
ScooterWerks
http://www.scooterwerks.com
On Jul 7, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
As I posted in a previous message, the plan is to get new car dealer
(s) to sign on to an all-electric car, they stock and sell it
(finance it, lease it) they should make more profit selling it than a
new car. It would have some brand name, and basically have the
dealer warranty support. Obviously that is not an easy sell to a
dealer, but I think they may be some large car dealer owners that
might go for it for the social angle, the notoriety, if not the
profit potential if it takes off. The car is marketed as "recycled"
or something along those lines. The car would have new parts for
wear items, new brakes, steering, etc. Basically shiney as new, but
"recycled". So the prep on the basic car would not be trivial.
It would cost the same as a new car, a new Taurus is $20K.
If you give dealer $4k profit, can it be done for $16K?
I have come to the definite conclusion that current lead-acid battery
technology will not work. Not enough range. Too much maintainance
and weight. NiMH or really Lithium is needed. So the cost of
Lithium must come down to make it happen. Perhaps with volume it can.
So it seems for TODAY, the car to bring electric to the mainstream
isn't possible. Perhaps there is a tiny market for a high-dollar
electric car as status symbol, like a H2 was, now it would be the
anti-H2, a $50K vehicle, maybe that is what Tesla is doing. In this
case, you can convert a new car, the cost isn't so important. Maybe
that is profitable niche business, but does it really help the
environment?
I think maybe a viable alternative today would be to take a new gas
car and ADD an aux electric drive to convert it to hybrid. Off the
top of my head I'd say the beetle. Add rear-wheel electric drive.
Make it go really fast AWD car, that gets exceptional mileage. Add
$10K to the $17K base price, that isn't too outrageous. But again
it's probably a niche short-term business.
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> Hmmm... well, heat does rise so cooling should be more
> effective venting out the top.
Not actually; *hot* air rises, but heat radiates equally in all
directions.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reading both your posts, I'm wondering if BMS has gotten a bad rep. Please
correct me if I'm wrong (I very well may be) but weren't those installed on
many of the Sparrows? I seem to recall seeing numerous posts about that
those could fix the probs w/ batts. Perhaps these weren't BMS units, but I
seem to recall something like $30 per batt. I've also seen numerous ads for
those rigs for sale (16K paid, 22K invested) that indicates they may have
played with this sort of system. I'm wondering if the batts were degraded
before the system was applied???
Sorry, I'm probably totally off base on these units. From what I gathered,
they were very similar to Lee's home brewed units that are installed on each
batt.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lee Hart" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Taurus EV
> I don't see that LEE. What I see at each EAA meeting I chair are guys
> that don't see the value in it. I could not sell them on my tiny
> version of Rich's regulators. They won't even go for the Zreg at $2
> each. I don't think it's cost. It has more to do with understanding
> what you gain from it. Nobody wants to look stupid. So they avoid the
> fact that they don't understand how a simple bms works by just not
> dealing with it.
>
> Then there is the battery monitoring system. That's been done cheap
> too. John's system is a good example of that. I couldn't sell that to
> the group either. Even one simpler than John's I couldn't get a nibble
> on. Not for cash but figuritively.
>
> It's just too complicated to see for most people to even investigate
> it. Even though you and I see it as dirt simple.
>
> I think 80% of EV owners are in two camps. Just buying/building an EV
> or just selling one off. So a bms isn't a thought either way.
>
> Mike
> > The fundamental reason we don't have good battery management systems
> > (BMS) is cost. Batteries cost money. BMS cost more money. It's cheaper
> > to "use up" batteries faster than to use an expensive BMS to extend
> > their life.
--- End Message ---
