EV Digest 5658
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Another car show
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Funky Optimas
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Batt-Bridge monitor
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: BMS poll
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Funky Optimas
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Funky Optimas
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: TMS (Temp management system)
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV-100 on ebay
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) First ride in my EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
11) Re: high current stud fuse
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Another car show
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: First ride in my EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: First ride in my EV, Comments!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Another car show
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: BMS poll
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Another car show
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Replacement clutch question
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Supplying AC power supply with DC, for beginners
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Another car show
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 17, 2006, at 12:31 PM, MIKE WILLMON wrote:
BTW, who is The Toecutter. That was an excellent post, references and
all.
Based on style, tone and length of post, my guess would be John
Westlund. Let's see if I can support this hypothesis.
Google comes up with a handful of pages that have both Toecutter and
Westlund on them. On the first hit, The Toecutter seems to be posting
the contents of a paper by John Westlund into a web forum. His user
profile there gives his location as "the wasteland".
Hardly anything that would stand up in court, I know. How about this:
<http://www.dragtimes.com/forums/index.php?
showtopic=1085&hl=electric+drag>
The Toecutter tells us he's converting a Triumph GT6. That's good
enough for me.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart writes:
>
> Are these batteries hot, or old? That would increase the likelihood of
> them venting.
The batteries were all at about 80F, and they are all about three years
old but have only been in daily use for the last few months. Prior to
being put into active use they were kept charged.
> Can you load test them? If they have excessive voltage sag, they already
> have some grid corrosion from excessive charging. The higher internal
> resistance makes their voltage go higher during charge, which increases
> gassing. You have to charge such batteries at a lower rate if you expect
> to keep using them.
I can load test them this weekend. They were hissing at just 2 amps,
which I thought they (Optima Yellow Tops) are supposed to be able to handle
without venting.
The voltage was up quite high, at about 16.3 volts or so. So were the other
batteries though.
I'm curious if the two venting batteries just have bad vent seals? Or is
it possible that one battery in a pair can get into the sort of trouble
that would cause it to vent but not it's mate?
> If you can, take them out and weigh them. If they are light, you'll need
> to add water, charge them less aggressively (so their specific gravity
> won't exceed 1.300), or replace them.
These are Optima Yellow Tops, so I can weigh them but adding water or
checking specific gravity is probably not an option.
> If the E-meter didn't reset to "full" (blinking LED), then you failed to
> meet one or more of the fully charged parameters. Do you know which one
> it was?
I suspect the charger timed out before the voltage hit the E-Meter's set
point. The current is typically below an amp around this time.
> Did the amphours fail to go positive? If so, something made the charger
> shut off early. Maybe the voltage went too high, and it shut off?
I didn't check the amphours this time, but sometimes it is still a little
negative.
> Did the voltage fail to rise high enough? This might happen if the
> batteries are hot, or you charged at too low a rate, or the regulators
> are set low (or the E-meter set too high). What did you set the
> E-meter's Charged Voltage to?
It's set to 190v. I have a 156v pack with the regulators set to about
14.7v
> Did the current fail to fall low enough? Hot batteries, or too high an
> end-of-charge current could do this.
I'm pretty sure the current was below an amp.
> > Problem 2:
> >
>
> If charging them at a higher rate just makes them hit the reg setpoint
> sooner, then they also have a higher internal resistance. You'd have to
> do some load tests to see if they are still acceptable (just weaker); or
> actually going bad.
OK, more load testing to do. Looks like a busy weekend...
Thanks for your suggestions.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
If you want to measure a particular voltage by powering ONE relay
then you must exchange NC and NO contacts on all relays.
The way you have drawn it, you need to power the SERIES of relays
R1, R2, ... Rn to read the voltage at the input to Rn+1.
This setup still does not give you any isolation fom the
(potential fatal) pack voltage for the measuring, it only
avoids switching errors that could fry wiring and contacts.
The isolated measurement is an issue that may be resolved
by using an (opto-)isolated communication bus and local
powering of the measurement device - for example for an USB
bus you would need a local +5V source and an USB <=> opto <=> USB
converter to isolate the PC (with all its ground exposed to touch)
from the battery pack.
An RS-232 serial bus isolator can even be build DYI as it only
requires two opto-couplers to build a bi-directional bus and
there is very little requirement for speed. Just make sure
that not only the opto-couplers, but also each powering of the
opto couplers is isolated, as one will be powered at the pack
side and the other at the PC side.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 9:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
Jamie Marshall wrote
> I'd like to avoid using a relay system because I want the isolation
> to happen right at the battery, keeping traction voltage isolated
> to inside the battery box. I'd be worried about a relay shorting
> out and frying my PC (or frying me).
I faced this dilemma, too. The problem is that all solid-state devices
normally fail SHORTED. Given the high voltages, high noise levels, and
difficult automotive environment, mechanical relays are actually
preferable to solid state switching devices.
You can get intrinsically-safe relays that are guaranteed not to fail
shorted. You can also use double-throw relays, wired so no shorts occur
even if multiple relays are turned on at once. Like this (view with a
fixed-width font):
+72v +60v +48v +36v +24v
| _____ | _____ | _____ | _____ | __...
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
nc O O no | nc O O no | nc O O no | nc O O no | nc O O no
\ | \ | \ | \ | \
com O | com O | com O | com O | com O
| K1 |______| K2 |______| K3 |______| K4 |______| K5
|
+ --------- meter
NC, NO, and COM are the Normally Closed, Normally Open, and Common
contacts of the SPDT relays. The + meter lead can be switched to any
battery + by powering one relay (K1-Kn). But any relay contact can stick
open or weld closed, and there still won't be any shorts, no matter what
other relays are operated. And, diagnostics can tell you precisely WHICH
relay contact is stuck open or closed.
If you're concerned about life (relays wearing out), use reed relays;
they are good for millions of cycles. Or better still, mercury-wetted
reed relays, which have an indefinite switching life.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lawrence and all,
The first thing you must do for long battery life, is to choose the highest
ampere-hour battery that will fit your needs.
I choose a 260 ah Trojan T-145's 6 volt lead-acid with removable caps that
seals with a o-ring.
I specific that all 30 batteries shall be a balance set from the manufacture of
not more than 0.01 volt to each other. When they roll these batteries off the
line, they test them anyway, so I had them pick out 50 batteries to be in with
0.01 volt.
On the battery line, they only do specific gravity test and a full load rating
on some batteries they pull off the line. They only do a 75 amp load on the
line batteries.
I also specific that the batteries shall not be over two weeks old from the
manufacture date. All batteries shall have the same date code.
On receiving a pallet load of 50 batteries, I will then do a acceptance test of
the voltage difference, check the specific gravity, and do a 75 amp load test.
I than pick out the best 30 batteries and had the battery truck take the rest
of the batteries to a local dealer.
The T-145's are rate at 145 minutes of reserved capacity at a 75 amp load.
The ampere-hour rating of the battery will only be 260 ah at a 20 hour
discharge at 260/20 or 13 amps per hour.
The average EV driving is about 75 amps, so I use the 145 minutes RC @ 75 A.
Then I must converted this to the real ampere-hour of the battery by:
145 minutes / 60 = 2.416 hours
then
2.416 hours x 75 amps = 181.25 ah
Therefore if I draw 90 ah, this will be about 50% D.O.D.
My daily driving range is about 5 miles, so I can choose to charge the
batteries every 6 days which is just getting to 79 % on the E-meter. Some
times it may take me only 4 days to get below 80 %.
Even though my batteries are rated at 260 ah, and I program the E-meter at 260
ah, the E-meter will adjust usable ampere-hour at the different rate of
discharge. So when the E-meter reads 80%, I have use about 36 ah.
The T-145's have a Low Profile Stud type connections. I do not connect
directly to the stud on with a terminal lug link. These studs if torque to the
recommended inch lbs with a plate terminal lug in direct contact, will cause
these battery terminals to mushroom and may pull out the studs.
I use a solid brass battery clamp with contact groves that is gold plated and
go around the large 1 inch diameter pad. This battery clamp has a large threw
bolt and nut for connecting my existing terminal lug links.
This clamp force around the pad, put pressure on the embedded stud. I than
install a ss washer, lock washer and nut to put downward pressure on this
battery clamp.
I find in my electrical work, it is best not to connect any two dissimilar
metals together. I found that with my last Exide battery pack, the plate
terminal lugs tarnish when in contacting the lead. The gold plate battery
clamps, that I got from WirthCo for $1.75 each, act like a bi-metal
connections.
I can torque these battery clamps to 120 inch lbs and the terminal lug to the
battery clamp at 15 ft lbs. Today after 4 years since I install these
fasteners, there is no corrosion at all.
These are fluid batteries, but with a seal locking type O-ring cap on a raised
filler neck. I do not used a flush filler neck with the top surface of the
batteries with a push on caps. There is too much current tracking between
these filler neck.
My driving is about 95% of the time in residence areas, with the speed at 10 to
25 mph for about 1/2 mile runs stopping a hour between runs. My average speed
is about 0 to 10 mph in 1st gear at a overall gear ratio of 19.5:1 and then
10-25 mph in 2nd gear at a overall gear ratio of 13.5:1.
In either 1st or 2nd, I do not draw over 200 amps on acceleration. At
cruising, I at about 100 amps. The other 5% of the time, I may accelerated up
to 40 mph in 3rd gear which is a 5.57:1 gear ratio. The ampere will go to 400
amps and than come down to 150 amps at cruising.
So you see, the normal break in period for EV's may be about 500 miles for
about 10 days, my break in period is still going on after 5 years.
A venting type of battery can be reduce by installing Hydrocells caps on your
battery. The hydrogen combines with a oxide in the cap and it returns it as
water back to the cell. I had these on my last batteries. The Trojan T-145's
are higher, so the Hydrocell caps will not work.
The Hydrocell tech told be to install a fresh air system that inputs filter
warm air in one end of a totally enclose battery box, and exhaust it out
through a acid proof exhaust fan. This brings in are which mixes with the
hydrogen in the cell which may reduce the water comsumption.
It seems to be working, because I only have to add one gallon of water to 30
batteries every 30 days. I can wait 6 months before the electrolyte level is
1/2 inch above the grids.
My temperature change in the batteries have only range from 65 degrees to 89
degrees. I do not heat the batteries, but keep the EV in a 70 degree building.
If I charge the batteries when the outside temperature is below 0 degrees, The
battery box fan is pulling in the garage air temperature of 70 degrees, and I
have it exit out through a exhaust hose port on the garage door. You can get
these exhaust hose and ports from any auto parts store.
The Trojan T-145's can be charge up to a maximum volt of 225 volts for a 180
volt pack at 80 degrees F. at a recommend 35 amps for the battery that has been
discharge to 80 %. Could charge as high as 20% of the rated ampere-hour of the
battery, which would be 52 amperes but this would reduce the life.
The material the battery box, is very important. It should be a non-conductor.
My is a 1/4 inch thick fiberglass which constructed from 1/4 inch by 4 foot by
8 foot sheets, that I pick up from a custom fiberglass company.
After assembling, I coated the inside of the box and cover with that same
epoxy coating you can paint on sinks and tubs from a kit you can get from Home
Depot.
This outside of this box is cover with 2 inches of Dow Corning Blue foam, a
layer of marine rug, a 4 inch a space, another layer of marine rug, and another
layer of foam. Now you can see, that I do not need any heat in the winter
time, or cooling in the summer.
Test driving the EV for the very first time with new batteries, it is
recommended that you construct a battery performance chart. This will
included:
A grid layout of the batteries with a numbering system.
A voltage reading at no load.
A load test at 75 amps for 15 seconds and voltage drop.
A specific gravity reading.
A torque reading of the battery terminals.
It is best to do battery link shunt test, while you do
the final torque of the battery connectors.
To do a shunt test, connect your multi-meter to the ma
scale and attach the leads in parallel with the battery
link. Attach the meter leads only to the battery lead
post, not to the battery connector.
Now turn on the charger to about 10 amp and read the
ampere. You then finish torque the connectors until all
the battery connectors read the same ampere.
Be sure to have insulated tools and a insulated rubber
mat or blanket that you can drap over the batteries and
over any conductive areas.
On your first test run of five miles, you then record on your battery chart:
Can be a small sample of a reference battery:
The voltage of the battery
A 75 amp load recording the voltage drop
The Specific Gravity
The Torque value.
The ampere-hour used
The wattage used
You can repeat this every 5 miles. This will give you a indication of range,
and if the battery fasteners are shrinking the lead, making the torque value go
down.
You then can make a graph (paper or computer) to display the results.
You will find, that you may lose about 5 inch lbs on the first 5 miles, then
you should torque again. It should stable out after several 5 miles run.
After 5 years on these batteries, I may clean them only once every month or
two. I use Whitaker clear battery cleaning and protector. It dries clear and
leaves no white residue, just wipe with a paper towel that is tape to those
painter wooden stir sticks.
Every 6 months I do a balance charge of 233 volts per 180 volts of batteries at
80 degrees F. Sometimes, I may have to bring up a battery that is 0.04 volts
out of balance with one of the highest readings of one battery. It only takes
about a minute with a separate 6 volt smart charger.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: BMS poll
Roland. As I remember you have very specific rules and routines concerning
your battery's care. Could you please go over them to the group once again
or direct us to those former words of wisdom from you? I am assuming you
are using US Batteries. I'd like to know the model. Watering procedure.
Charge rate or any other information that will prolong the life of these
batteries. I know your usage is low & if this is one of the reason's you
have such long life from your batteries. It seems every aspect from bolt
torque to watering & charging procedure affects the life of a lead acid
battery. I have had mixed results from my flooded battery usage. Also if
you have ideas on picking a battery for more miles per day vs.few miles per
day. Thanks. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: BMS poll
> I have none, after 5 years, 30 of my T-145's are still in with 0.02 volts
of each other with over 20 in the 0.01 volt range. I am going for over 10
years to break my old record.
>
> If any one batteries get more than 0.04 volts from each other, than about
every six months, I will charge that one with a smart charger for about 1
minute.
>
> Roland
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Phillips<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:14 PM
> Subject: BMS poll
>
>
> It's easy enough to find out from the list admin how many people are on
> this list. So I thought a poll is appropriate to see how many have
> something attached to each battery that is active in managing the
> battery pack. One charger per battery counts. Having a fancy charger
> alone does not count.
>
> So how many folks on this last have bms on their battery pack?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
>
www.RotorDesign.com<http://www.rotordesign.com/<http://www.rotordesign.com<http://www.rotordesign.com/>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> The batteries were all at about 80F, and they are all about
> three years old but have only been in daily use for the
> last few months. Prior to being put into active use they
> were kept charged.
Ralph, I have observed similar behaviour with some of the Optimas you
donated to my project. I believe that differing self-discharge rates
between the cells result in the cells drifting out of balance within a
module such that one or more cells will vent under conditions observed
at the module level that should be acceptable.
What worked quite well for me in correcting this behaviour was to
connect the offending batteries to a 15V supply with a 100W 120V bulb in
series with each battery to limit the current to each battery to about
100mA max. I left the batteries on charge like this for about a week,
after which I could charge them normally without venting and was able to
get between 80-100% of rated capacity from each module.
> I'm curious if the two venting batteries just have bad vent
> seals?
A few years ago Paul Compton posted regarding "blueprinting" of the
Optima vents. He found that some of the vents had some plastic "flash"
that interfered with their proper operation, and after cleaning this
off, the vents worked properly. To access the vents, you need to pry
off the little discs covering the vents.
Good luck with your new pack. It probably doesn't make you feel any
better, but a single 120V string of your original pack of blems is
getting me to work and back, despite now being something like 6-7 years
old! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 17, 2006, at 12:43 PM, Ralph Merwin wrote:
I can load test them this weekend. They were hissing at just 2 amps,
which I thought they (Optima Yellow Tops) are supposed to be able to
handle
without venting.
No, Optimas may vent at 2 amps for one hour. In fact, they may vent at
1 amp for 2 hours too (and either way, they may exceed 16 volts.) My
experience indicates that new Optimas are more likely to do this than
old ones.
I'm not suggesting that equalization is a bad thing. Its needed and
moderate water loss is acceptable (running too low on water about the
same time you run out of good active material sounds like the perfect
plan.) A little ticking doesn't bother me - but hissing would make me
*stop* too :-)
Your buddy pairs only add wrinkles to this situation. I recommend you
test each battery separately (not as a buddy pair.) I recommend that
after testing you make sure to buddy each battery with the one it was
in parallel with before. They have become some sort of a team.
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 17, 2006, at 6:53 AM, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 06:42 AM 7/17/2006, Christopher Zach wrote:
The really interesting thing will be to see what happens to the
BB600's in this sort of heat.
I found that they failed quite badly above 1000 degrees or so...
(kinda melted all over the place.)
Dude, you have a sick sense of humor :-) I'm *real* glad to see you
still have your sense of humor!
All the best,
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
General Electric EV-100 SCR Control Forklift EV100 Item number: 150010510077.
If you happen to need one.
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
If you want to measure a particular voltage by powering ONE
relay, then you must exchange NC and NO contacts on all relays.
Oops, you're right Cor. Exchange the NC and NO designations, like this:
+72v +60v +48v +36v +24v
| _____ | _____ | _____ | _____ | __...
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
no O O nc | no O O nc | no O O nc | no O O nc | no O O nc
/ | / | / | / | /
com O | com O | com O | com O | com O
| K1 |______| K2 |______| K3 |______| K4 |______| K5
|
+ --------- meter
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hii everyone;
Well, $7,300.00 and 900 hours later and I finally test drove my converted 1998
VW Beetle over the weekend.
It's a Zilla, 9" ADC, no clutch with 18 - 8 volt Trojans and I was really
surprised with results.
I was surprised at how well it shifts and it's acceleration - and I was being
very gentle with it.
It didn't go with out a hitch though. I forgot to wire the other side of the
contactor and a Zilla error code embarrased me into finishing that up. Then one
of the fuses I have in the contactor sensor lines to the Hairball came up with
a high resistance - kind of odd - but, again, a Zilla error code identified it
and I switch that out.
Then, on the first run, the motor wouldn't turn over about 500 rpm. Turns out I
flagged a motor speed sensor for a second motor I don't have. The Zilla won't
error out on that but it kinda made sense to flag it off. And then the it all
worked.
Oh, just before that I checked the pack voltage with my VOM set on the 10 amp
range. That was fun. Still seeing a funny bright white ball when I close my
eyes.
Anyway, my first impression of the EV was ..... George Jetson! (You know, the
old cartoon series from the 60's)
Just a little dribble of noise going down the street.
I gave a bunch of friends that were over on Sunday a ride, and, all of them
being from Chicago, all said the same thing:
It's an El train!
(short name for our electric rapid transit trains that travel around downtown
Chicago on an elevated structure)
Anyway, I have to bond with this thing now - it's like a new child I have to
get to know.
BTW, many posts on the list directly or indirectly helped very much with the
project. It was very helpful to be able benefit from other people's experience
- too many to list. Thank you.
I have to install the meters and finish it up - I'm sure I'll have many
questions.
Dana
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod,
We use this style of fuse at work. The ones we use are made by Pudenz which
I guess has been bought by Littelfuse.
http://www.littelfuse.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/prod_series.html?SeriesID=3098
Use with caution, if you don't get the insulators setup correctly, you don't
have a fuse. We've had problems with people in the field not implementing
them correctly.
Regards,
Chris Brune
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:47 AM
Subject: high current stud fuse
> If you look at page 2,
> http://www.antares.co.uk/pdf_files/pub109_7.pdf
> They have 'high current stud fuses'
> The terminal passes through the fuse.
> One side connectes to the terminal and the other side
> connects to a ring terminal (from your power source)
> and
> has a nylon washer for insulation from the terminal.
>
> Does anybody know of a similar fuse by a different
> vendor?
>
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
>Based on style, tone and length of post, my guess would
>be John Westlund. Let's see if I can support this
>hypothesis.
You are indeed correct. I'm a big fan of the first two Mad
Max movies, hence the user name and my 'location'. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dana - congratulations! Do you have any pictures on the web of your build?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dana Havranek
Sent: July 17, 2006 5:22 PM
To: EV Disc Grp
Subject: First ride in my EV
Hii everyone;
Well, $7,300.00 and 900 hours later and I finally test drove my converted
1998 VW Beetle over the weekend.
It's a Zilla, 9" ADC, no clutch with 18 - 8 volt Trojans and I was really
surprised with results.
I was surprised at how well it shifts and it's acceleration - and I was
being very gentle with it.
It didn't go with out a hitch though. I forgot to wire the other side of the
contactor and a Zilla error code embarrased me into finishing that up. Then
one of the fuses I have in the contactor sensor lines to the Hairball came
up with a high resistance - kind of odd - but, again, a Zilla error code
identified it and I switch that out.
Then, on the first run, the motor wouldn't turn over about 500 rpm. Turns
out I flagged a motor speed sensor for a second motor I don't have. The
Zilla won't error out on that but it kinda made sense to flag it off. And
then the it all worked.
Oh, just before that I checked the pack voltage with my VOM set on the 10
amp range. That was fun. Still seeing a funny bright white ball when I close
my eyes.
Anyway, my first impression of the EV was ..... George Jetson! (You know,
the old cartoon series from the 60's) Just a little dribble of noise going
down the street.
I gave a bunch of friends that were over on Sunday a ride, and, all of them
being from Chicago, all said the same thing:
It's an El train!
(short name for our electric rapid transit trains that travel around
downtown Chicago on an elevated structure)
Anyway, I have to bond with this thing now - it's like a new child I have to
get to know.
BTW, many posts on the list directly or indirectly helped very much with the
project. It was very helpful to be able benefit from other people's
experience - too many to list. Thank you.
I have to install the meters and finish it up - I'm sure I'll have many
questions.
Dana
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Disc Grp" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: First ride in my EV
> Hii everyone;
>
> Well, $7,300.00 and 900 hours later and I finally test drove my converted
1998 VW Beetle over the weekend.
> It's a Zilla, 9" ADC, no clutch with 18 - 8 volt Trojans and I was really
surprised with results.
> I was surprised at how well it shifts and it's acceleration - and I was
being very gentle with it.
>
Way to go Dana!!! Congrats at getting your EV Grin going.
> It didn't go with out a hitch though. I forgot to wire the other side of
the contactor and a Zilla error code embarrased me into finishing that up.
Then one of the fuses I have in the contactor sensor lines to the Hairball
came up with a high resistance - kind of odd - but, again, a Zilla error
code identified it and I switch that out.
>
> Then, on the first run, the motor wouldn't turn over about 500 rpm. Turns
out I flagged a motor speed sensor for a second motor I don't have. The
Zilla won't error out on that but it kinda made sense to flag it off. And
then the it all worked.
>
Not for nothin' but I think ther motor has to wind up faster! Lugging,
or loading down the poor motor will heat it up too much. Feel it after you
have driven it around awile. It shouldn't be too hot to touch! If the
Outside is sizzlin' hot, your comm and brushes are gunna be roasting too
hot, too!
> Oh, just before that I checked the pack voltage with my VOM set on the 10
amp range. That was fun. Still seeing a funny bright white ball when I close
my eyes.
>
> Anyway, my first impression of the EV was ..... George Jetson! (You know,
the old cartoon series from the 60's)
> Just a little dribble of noise going down the street.
> Or if ya take a sailboat sailer type for a ride they will say,"' Just
like sailing"
> I gave a bunch of friends that were over on Sunday a ride, and, all of
them being from Chicago, all said the same thing:
>
> It's an El train!
> (short name for our electric rapid transit trains that travel around
downtown Chicago on an elevated structure)
Yeah we have El's and Subways, Amtrak in NYC and CT, sound the same.
One Boston guy rode with me and said my Rabbit sounded like a "T "Trackless
trolley. Wzzzzzzzz, of a happy traction motor.EV's sing in happiness as they
go.
>
> Anyway, I have to bond with this thing now - it's like a new child I have
to get to know.
>
> BTW, many posts on the list directly or indirectly helped very much with
the project. It was very helpful to be able benefit from other people's
experience - too many to list. Thank you.
> Hey, Guyz!All you OTHER newbees, too! That's why were here. No Friend
lets friends..............go it alone ,in a dark little garage, some where
west of Laramie. Share, talk, network, and seeya at the NEDRA Races.
> I have to install the meters and finish it up - I'm sure I'll have many
questions.
Don't go around WITHOUT meters,for long, a good Volt and Amp meter,
should be priority. You are flying blind! You NEED those!I guess you are in
the Chicagoland Fox Valley EAA area?You are hooked up with these guyz?
Right!?
Seeya
Bob
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Another car show
> I am considering registering for a local car show that will be taking
place in the Austin, TX area July 29
http://www.samuelsjewelers.com/carshow/index.php.
>
> I have been to lots of car shows (been a car buff all my life), but, I
have never seen an EV at one. I know there are local EV's in the area and I
encourage them to bring their cars. I have only seen EV's at EV,
environmental, or alternative fuel events. I think general car shows would
be far more effective in spreading EV recognition, since it is a different
crowd - not people who are already thinking along those lines.
>
> No, my car is not an EV YET, but, I expect it will draw an even larger
crowd when it is!
>
> Ken
>
> Hey Ken;
There is a very active Eaa Chapter in Austin TX. Hook up with them, I'm
sure they have some running EV's for Show an' Tell?
Seeya
My two watts worth.
Bob
>
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I have 2 data points for the poll. One wet, and one dry.
One without any individual battery treatment on charge and
one with. My Karmann Ghia's first pack was Trojan 27TMHs
charged with a K&W charger. The pack lasted 3 years and
8045 miles. The current pack is Optima YTs with individual
chargers. The pack is 10 years old, and has so far accumulated
6141 miles, and still running strong!
.....John
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--- Begin Message ---
According to the local paper there were about
30,000 people in attendance and 400 cars on display. I
had about 100 coppies of my handout and they were gone
in about 2 hours. I had my truck backed in to the curb
with the cab facing out. I think this limited the
amount of people that stopped to check out the truck.
The more observant people noticed the plug hanging out
the gas cap and stepped along side the truck, their
eyes got big when they saw the 24 US 145s in the bed
of the truck. I think I would have been totally
swamped all night if I'd turned the truck around so
they saw the batteries first. The low rider crowd kept
asking me where the switches were, I guess that's what
they use to make there cars jump?
I hope I didn't get your hopes up far a fancy
handout on operating costs. It was just a quick and
dirty flyer I put together. I'll include the text of
it below. If you want the formatted .doc file i used
let me know off list and I'll gladly e-mail it to you.
TiM
Converting to Electric, is it worth it?
That all depends
Cost to operate my Dodge pickup for 4 years @ 8,000
miles per year:
Fuel Costs ~16MPG @ $3.00/gallon Cost per mile:
20.63 ¢
Cost to operate the Electric Corvair for 4 years @
8,000 miles per year:
Battery Pack replacement: ~$2,000 6.25¢/ mile (Lead
Acid, 24 X $83) Efficiency: ~500WH/mile @ 13¢/KWH
6.5¢/ mile
Cost per mile: 12.75¢/ mile
Over 50% of my charging is done @ public charging
stations cutting my cost to:
My actual cost per mile: 6.38¢/ mile
Cost to operate a 2002 Honda Civic for 4 years @ 8,000
miles per year:
Fuel Costs ~30MPG @ $3.30/gallon
Cost per mile: 11¢
Cost to operate a converted Electric Honda Civic for 4
years @ 8,000 miles per year:
Battery Pack replacement: ~$1,700 5.3¢/ mile (Lead
Acid, 20 X $83)
Efficiency: ~250WH/mile @ 13¢/KWH 3.25¢/ mile
Cost per mile: 8.55¢
Keep in mind these are simplified cases and don't take
into account the cost of oil changes and other
maintenance that the gas vehicles need. The electric
vehicles need a gallon of distilled water every month
or so. It ignores the benifit of reduced emissions
that come with driving an electric vehicle it also
fails to take into account the cost of the electric
conversion.
(Gas and electric cost reflect Glendale, CA as of
7/06)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Try <clutchnet.com>, home of the "It vill not schlip!" clutch/
How does the inexperienced converter choose?
Listen to the advice of EV drag racers. I can't tell you how many
times I've tried to convince those converting to an EV about the
importance of using a race quality heavy duty clutch, then I hear them
say 'But I'm not interested in drag racing...I don't need that kind of
clutch'...then, about two weeks after their conversion is on the road,
I hear them moaning about how their clutch is slipping when they try
to take off in 2nd gear, as most EVers always decide is the best
choice for the take-off gear with an EV's abundant low end torque.
John, do yourself a favor and get the most heavy duty clutch you can
find. You don't need a solid copper tri-pad racer's friction disc, as
they are pretty rude and abrupt, but when it comes to the pressure
plate, don't wimp out. Get a mondo sized pressure plate with lots of
clamping force, and pair it with a heavy duty clutch disc with fat
springs and high performance friction material (usually impregnated
with metallic partials). While you're playing in that area, have a
qualified machine shop trim the flywheel down to the diameter of the
pressure plate to cut 10-15 lbs. rotational weight...you don't need or
want it when you have an electric motor as your motive source.
See Ya.....John Wayland
Would matching this pressure plate with one of the following clutch
disc be suitable/overkill?
Red 2X racing level pressure plate for Nissan Pick-Up
Fits : Nissan Pick-Up 1986-97 2960cc VG30E 6 Cylinder
SKU: 47730R55
Racing 2X level: Red 2X
Red 2X racing level pressure plate. It can replace the stock plate.
Market price: $245.00
Our price: $221.00 , save 9%
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=20787&cat=0&page=1
6 button E-Z Lock (sprung hub) clutch for Nissan Pick-Up
Fits : Nissan Pick-Up 1986-97 2960cc VG30E 6 Cylinder
SKU: 59703CR
Performance level: Red
RACING 6 BUTTON “E-Z LOCK” ™ SPRUNG HUB CLUTCH DISC
Clutch Disc is designed for drag and road race use.
Market price: $175.00
Our price: $165.00 , save 5%
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=17894&cat=0&page=1
4 button E-Z Lock (sprung hub) clutch for Nissan Pick-Up
Fits : Nissan Pick-Up 1986-97 2960cc VG30E 6 Cylinder
SKU: 59603CR
Performance level: Red
RACING 4 BUTTON “E-Z LOCK” ™ SPRUNG HUB CLUTCH DISC
Clutch Disc is designed for drag and road race use.
Market price: $150.00
Our price: $139.00 , save 7%
http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php?productid=16873&cat=0&page=1
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It depends on the power supply. And there are many others here who can
correct me but Lets look at the typical AC end of a SMPS.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Unilog8KMonitorPS2.png
Starting from the left is the 220V plug, a fuse, a surge surpressor, and
a filter capacitor accross the AC.
Then a "Common mode inductor" and more filter caps.
This particular supply has a place for a jumper and a pair of diodes to
create a full wave rectifier for 110, but was left off the board. In
series on the bottom lead is a NTC(negative temperatur Coeff) resistor
that limits the inrush current to safe levels during the initial
chargeing of the main DC rail capacitors after the bridge rectifier.
DC will pass straight thru all this stuff and fill the main caps, when
the voltage comes up on the second negative temp coef resistor on that
diode that points down (half wave recification on AC) the chip will
start oscillating. If the feedback is within spec, it continues.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Unilog8kMonitorPS_ControlBoard.png
On this board the 20khz outputs are rectifed and the primary (90V) is
sensed and fed back thru the optocopler that just shorts a resistor in
the feedback circuit of the chip the secondary output floats and a
simple linear regulator is used to create he 12V output.
The mIn DC buss caps are 370V rated and it hangs in there at around 330
This power supply closely follows the reference design with the
exception of the feedback
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/94044/ETC/TDA4600-3.html
If there is a more complicated PFC front end, or active recification,
may say "approved for European Union" , it may not work. These higher
effiency units "surf" the incoming AC and probably will not pass DC.
Rudman, got your ears on???
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That's an impressive looking rig, Tim. (I have a fondness for these old
rigs... having owned a couple of the vans... years ago.)
As for a couple questions... the 500 w/mile. Is that measured from wall
current put into the batts, or from your e-meter? If from wall current, you
are going more that 3 times the range the rig would have, if its ICE were in
perfect tune. (Though I'd never have gone your top recorded speed in one.
<g>)
It looks like you completed the floor pan all the way back. The original had
a fairly good air flow, which probably accounted for being able to beat our
VW vans in MPG... this being the only break in the belly pan (to speak of).
They certainly roll easily enough.
Did you need to upgrade the springs to carry the weight?
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 10:48 PM
Subject: Another car show
> I took my '61 Corvair Rampside pick up truck,
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/656 to a big car
> show in Glendale, CA yesterday. I got there around
> 5:00 and the show ended at 10:30. From the time I
> lifted the battery cover until the show ended I was
> surrounded by people, answering questions
> continuously. I was amazed by all the attention my
> little electric truck was getting among all the
> classic muscle cars that were on display. My handouts
> were gone in less than 2 hours. One handout details my
> truck and has links to the EV album, NEDRA and some of
> the parts and conversion kit suppliers. The other one
> does a operating cost comparison between a conversion
> and an ICE.
> I had at least a dozen people ask me if I was
> doing conversions or if I could convert their car for
> them. I gave them the URL for Left Coast Conversions,
> I'll have to add than one to my hand out. Hey Gadget,
> do I get a finders fee for referrals? ;-) Seriously,
> if you have an electric, take it to the "regular" car
> shows, it's a great way to expose people to EVs. Just
> be prepared to talk allot. People were asking me about
> range, charge time, battery life, regenerative
> braking, and even a few generators on the wheel
> questions.
>
> TiM
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