EV Digest 5682
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) crap - started mowing, and lost forward speeds
by Michael S Briggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Best EV Joke....
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: TWO batteries are even MORE impressive!
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Spark Lad is born
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Australian 'Dateline' to Film Electric Drag Racing in Portland at
Wayland Invitational II
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Contactor Wired Direct for Full Throttle Operation?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Australian 'Dateline' to Film Electric Drag Racing in Portland at
Wayland Invitational II
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Tesla Motors Performance Comparision
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "Hybrid" Mass Transit (long)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Ranger EV Battery Modifications
by "Mark Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: crap - started mowing, and lost forward speeds
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Electric Metro project on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Clutchless S10
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ranger EV Battery Modifications
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ranger EV Battery Modifications
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Contactor Wired Direct for Full Throttle Operation?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Volt meter leakage current (is it possible ?)
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Volt meter leakage current (is it possible ?)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electric Metro project on eBay
by "Vivek Gani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Volt meter leakage current (is it possible ?)
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: WarP 11 in Pickup (was RE: Chelsea Sexton to appear...)
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Today was the first run with my "new" E15, mowing the yard. After about 5
minutes or so, I stopped to lift the mower deck (having some trouble with
the Gator Blades - one of the blades (far right one) keeps getting grass
stuck under its "wings", causing it to stop cutting the grass well).
When I got back on the tractor to start driving again, it wouldn't
go forward. Reverse works fine. When I put move the speed selector forward
(any speed, and any gear on the transmission), I get a repetitive clicking
noise, and the needle on the power use gauge hops all over the place
("click" - moves to the yellow region and then another click and it goes
back to zero, click again and it repeats over and over, very fast).
Any ideas? It had been working fine (other than the blade issue).
Thanks,
Mike
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Michael S. Briggs
UNH Physics Department
(603) 862-2828
---------------------------------------------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Rothenberg wrote:
My neighbor has listened to my EV rants, etc.
for months, then today I said I found an EV
that's RUNNING that I might buy....
and he asked me "Does it come with the TRACK?"
(as in HotRods ?:-)
No, as in slot-cars.
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
That's excellent advice, thanks!
I plan to be vewwy vewwy caweful when I'm hooking up my pack. Those
volts and amps scare me. I will definitely be putting some kind of
condom on my battery cables.
On Jul 23, 2006, at 2:44 PM, Ralph Merwin wrote:
Jude,
I use a piece of old innertube to cover the cable ends that I'm working
with, or sometimes I wrap the end with a piece of bubble wrap, or even
electrical tape. I also use a shop towel to cover adjacent terminals
in case a uncovered cable end slips while I'm installling it.
Ralph
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Jude Anthony wrote:
Okay, so I don't deserve a moniker like "Plasma Boy" or anything.
Certainly "Plasma Boy" has become "Plasma Man" by now? Can I be
"Spark Lad"?
I'm still Plasma Boy, as I failed to ever grow up :-) However, I hearby
deem you 'Spark Lad' by the unofficial power vested in me.
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Roy LeMeur and Rod Wilde have been stirring up the excitement level at
NEDRA lately, and recently, along with yours truly, have been in contact
with the nice folks at Dateline, Australia:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Parker"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: Dateline at NEDRA Nationals
Hi Roderick
I'm wondering if you were able to find out about a drag race before the
end of August....It would be great if David
could film some electric drag racers with their cars.
Hi Sarah,
...Contact John Wayland, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would bet that he
could get together a few electric racers for an impromptu race.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
I'm happy to report the film crew is on their way to Portland. David and
crew will meet with Tim and I Thursday evening for dinner where we'll
discuss what they've got in mind. It looks like we'll be racing White
Zombie this Friday night and perhaps Saturday, too.
There's not enough time to tear the rear end down, assess things, get in
parts, and get it put back together before Thursday, so we'll just have
to settle for low 12's before the cameras.
I'm working with Crazy Rod, Madman, Father Time, Otmar, Steve and Duane
(12 second drag bike) and others to see if we can have quite a few hot
electrics for them to capture for the show.
See Ya....John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
Patrick Maston wrote:
> Any pitfalls to doing it?
Other than destroying your controller if the bypass contactor switches
at the wrong time? ;^>
A bypass contactor can work, but some care must be taken in controlling
it to ensure that it does not switch (in particular, does not open)
under the wrong conditions.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm assuming this'll be at PIR? Give us the details when you know them. I
wanna try to get my dad to stop by. They usually make
it into Portland for the weekends, up from Fossil.
Thanks and good luck for a good show.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 3:35 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Australian 'Dateline' to Film Electric Drag Racing in Portland
at Wayland Invitational II
Hello to All,
Roy LeMeur and Rod Wilde have been stirring up the excitement level at
NEDRA lately, and recently, along with yours truly, have been in contact
with the nice folks at Dateline, Australia:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Parker"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Dateline at NEDRA Nationals
>
>
> Hi Roderick
>
> I'm wondering if you were able to find out about a drag race before the
> end of August....It would be great if David
> could film some electric drag racers with their cars.
>
> Hi Sarah,
>
> ...Contact John Wayland, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would bet that he
> could get together a few electric racers for an impromptu race.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
I'm happy to report the film crew is on their way to Portland. David and
crew will meet with Tim and I Thursday evening for dinner where we'll
discuss what they've got in mind. It looks like we'll be racing White
Zombie this Friday night and perhaps Saturday, too.
There's not enough time to tear the rear end down, assess things, get in
parts, and get it put back together before Thursday, so we'll just have
to settle for low 12's before the cameras.
I'm working with Crazy Rod, Madman, Father Time, Otmar, Steve and Duane
(12 second drag bike) and others to see if we can have quite a few hot
electrics for them to capture for the show.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree Don. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Tesla Roadster is
the first "production" Electric Muscle car. The Tesla seems to be a well
engineered car designed for high volume production, it looks to be well
beyond the prototype stage. Also, the suspension is worthy of a sports
car, I am sure it is capable of upgrades for road racing.
The T-Zero was a well performing EV but they were all Engineering
Prototypes, that is one reason why the price was so high, and I don't know
how well it would hold up in an extended road race.
As for justifying its price, If you attend an SCCA event there is a lot of
money flying around the track in any given race and the purse (if there is
one) doesn't even come close to indy or NASCAR. Those guys do it because
they love to. The Tesla Roadster is for the person that does not need or
want to justify the price.
I think the Tesla would be a really fun car to race in a 45 to 60 minute
road race. At first glance it looks like it may tend to push but I am
sure it doesn't. I would like to see the weight distribution - has anyone
seen any info on this?
Jimmy
https://www.dm3electrics.com/
> > From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: RE: Tesla Motors Performance Comparision
> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 11:25:49 -0700
>
> It would be nice to see a race that was not just straight line
> acceleration.
> Comparing the Tesla to a drag car in a straight line acceleration is
> somewhat biased.
>
> Something that can test acceleration, cornering and range...
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some good points/questions. It wouldn't be hard if you go to the
transfer (bus) station and get hooked together mechanically, then at
destination all get unhooked, that is more like a bus system. The great
thing about a car is not having to wait for the bus and going directly
from point A to B. I'm think commute distances, 10-50 miles, not long
trips which the local car would not work for. Or you can use the puller
(pusher) solo for a long trip if they have that kind of capacity.
So to preserve that the functionality and convenience, the freeway
onramps have the pullers, you just attach and go, just like you stop and
wait for the green light at busy times. Too costly to be manned. The
lead car would be pushed and do the driving, the rest would attach to
the back and be pulled and would not drive. You would pay by how many
are attached. Use it solo, you are charged more. Wait for others you
pay less. All electrics could have regen to change that isn't a problem
The cars might need to be strong, but maybe not, a point of research
there. A magnetic coupling can be turned on/off easily inside the car,
the attaching force can be substantial, the cars should remain together
over bumps, simple lane changes. Collision avoidance manuvers might be
a problem, but how different is that from a semi-truck on the road, they
don't make such manuvers or sudden stops.
Now you could be forced to exit and stop to unattach a car, that would
be easy but slow down the process. How to make an unattach at speed go
smoothly is again another point of research. Undo the magnetic force,
the car can resume control and move to the right lane, the car behind
would then wait for the car(s) ahead to slow and reattach. I think it
could be done.
What appeals to me is that it would require no significant changes to
the highway, and minimal support from the electric car. Just the
magnetic coupling primarily.
I found the RUF system on a search that is similiar idea but uses a rail
for the freeway. Way too expensive to install rails all over and
requires special car.
Jack
Doug Weathers wrote:
I like this idea. I have a few (well, a lot of) observations to add.
All my own inexpert opinions, of course.
On Jul 23, 2006, at 2:04 PM, Jack Murray wrote:
The problem with electric cars is the battery. For good range, it
must be too big and costly relative to gasoline.
So what can be done to get by with a small cheaper battery pack?
Well, the car must be recharged often.
Can we do it "in flight"?
Use the battery power of an electric car to energize a magnet that
will "attach" yourself to the vehicle in front of you.
Basically, steal their power and have them pull you along and recharge
your batteries.
There's no need to use an electromagnet for this - a mechanical coupling
would be much stronger and use a lot less power. It might weigh more,
though. You also need a separate connection for the electricity to
recharge while in the train. Unless you expect each EV has regen -
which adds other problems.
Now of course this is cheating. But consider this, have "pullers"
running on the freeways at peak hours, the electric cars magnetically
attach say 4-5 together and get their batts recharged during the commute.
That's clever! Some thoughts:
- EVs would need to be designed to withstand the stress of having four
or more cars hanging off the rear bumper. This will drive up weight and
cost. Especially if you allow the cars being towed to use regen,
requiring stronger couplers and a very beefed-up frame for every EV.
- The tow vehicle would probably be something like a standard truck
(without trailer), driven by a human. No (or very little) extra freeway
infrastructure needed.
- There are laws on how long a truck can be, probably different in every
state.
- This isn't like a train. It's not on rails. Dynamic stability will
need to be carefully managed. Nobody allowed to turn his steering
wheel, put on the brakes, step on the accelerator. What happens when
the driver of the puller has to make an emergency stop, or runs into
something? This assumes that each car in the train is being controlled
by a computer in the puller
- Given that assumption, how is control returned to the driver, at
freeway speeds? There's a big chance of a nasty accident here. Return
control too soon, and the tail wags the dog. Return it too late and
you're loose on the freeway with no control of your car. Regardless,
the driver will have to be careful to not overcontrol the car when being
dropped off the train.
I've seen this "smart car" train idea to improve safety and mpg by
reducing wind resistance from the drafting effect, but this would be
an improvement on that idea.
Smart car is right. I think this idea has the best chance of working if
we ever get the "Smart Highway" built, where the cars can guide
themselves, or be guided by the road.
This is something like a "Hybrid" mass transmit system. Individual
vehicles, but pooled together like mass transmit solutions.
Freeway onramps have staging areas where the pullers wait, the cars
link up, and off it goes. your offramp comes up, you "pull the cord"
like a bus, and you get detached. They bill you for the miles spent
attached.
The problem here is what happens if you're in the middle of the train
and you want the exit? I see the following options:
- The train would need to be carefully assembled so it could come apart,
in order, from the back to the front. If you change your mind after you
hit the freeway, too bad. You'll have to wait until you get to the rear
and can be dropped.
- The train would have to be able to part in the middle, let you out,
then reform itself while on the highway. Tricky, but probably doable if
the whole train is under computer control.
Question: am I worrying too much about the skill of EV drivers? Would
we all learn not to jiggle the wheel or play with the pedals while
entrained, and learn to not have the wheel cramped over when being
released from the train? Personally, I'd be worried that there was an
idiot a few cars up that might forget what he was doing and fling me
into a bridge abutment. But, I take a similar risk every time I drive....
If we have to wait for the Smart Highway, this may never work.
If we have to standardize our EVs (standard couplings fore and aft at a
standard height, overridable controls, computers, etc) it may never
happen either.
One way to make this sort of idea work without those two things is to
use a bus analogy instead of a train. Here's how it might work:
- You drive into the puller stop. You select your destination and pay
for your ticket, then drive your car onto a pallet. You plug your
charger into the appropriate outlet on the pallet (120, 240, Avcon,
whatever). You get back in the car and wait. The pallet might have
shore power available, to run your AC and do a bit of charging. (If we
can get a standard going here, perhaps the hookup would be automatic.)
- The puller arrives. It's like a car transport truck. Special loading
equipment removes the pallets with cars that are getting off at this
stop, and loads up the cars waiting to get on (including yours). This
needs to be done as fast as possible.
- The puller drives off. Power is supplied to your pallet from the
puller, charging the car while you ride in comfort, logging on the
puller's on-board wireless Internet with your laptop.
- The puller stops at each stop, letting passengers (palletized cars) on
and off.
- When you get to your stop, your pallet is deposited on the ground.
You turn off your laptop and drive away.
Drawback: the process of loading/unloading all those pallets is very
much more complicated than getting people on and off of buses or subway
trains. You need infrastructure for this at every stop.
It might be too dangerous to be in your car while it's being powered on
and off the puller, so you might need to ride in a bus. Hey, we've
reinvented car transporters and Greyhound!
Other range-extending ideas have been floated on this list. The ones I
can remember offhand:
- fast swap battery packs
- on-board generators
- generator trailers
- pusher trailers
- swapping out the whole chassis
- special EVs that can ride on special rails using offboard power, or
can drive on normal roads
I don't like any of the items on this list. The best of the lot is the
pusher trailer, I think.
At this stage in my thinking, I believe that the best next step is to
perfect rapid charging. If you could do a fast bulk charge on your pack
and (safely) get it 80% full in a few minutes, everything changes.
Instead of needing to charge on the go, you pull off the freeway and
make a quick refueling stop. Thank you Rich Rudman and those like him,
for working on this problem. I for one can't wait.
My opinion on the best range extender available TODAY for an EV?
Another (petroleum-burning) car. Rent it if you only need it
infrequently, or take mass transit.
Jack
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi out there-------
Has anyone replaced the 39-8 volt batteries in a Ranger EV with 26-12 Volt
AGM or Gel batteries yet? Buying "re-manufactured" 8 volt batteries does
not seem like a good solution to me. ($5,250) New 8 volt batteries are
twice as much as used. ($9,000) I can get new 12 volt, equivalent sized 75
AH batteries for a little over half the price of the used 8 volt batteries,
($3,100) and save 500# in the process.
I know the Battery Control Module won't monitor the batteries any more, but
so long as the charger still charges, and the little truck still moves, I
think it would be worth it.
I also want to mount a generator in the truck bed, to greatly extend the
range. The question there, is to run AC to the on-board charger, or DC
directly to the batteries?
Once that works, I can go with a smaller battery pack, saving more weight.
Check out our Website! Pacpower.biz
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark Frederick
12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
Auburn, CA 95602
Cell 530-277-1985
Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
Fax 530-887-1986
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--- Begin Message ---
Michael S Briggs wrote:
Today was the first run with my "new" E15, mowing the yard. After about
5 minutes or so, I stopped to lift the mower deck (having some trouble
with the Gator Blades - one of the blades (far right one) keeps getting
grass stuck under its "wings", causing it to stop cutting the grass well).
When I got back on the tractor to start driving again, it wouldn't
go forward. Reverse works fine. When I put move the speed selector
forward (any speed, and any gear on the transmission), I get a
repetitive clicking noise, and the needle on the power use gauge hops
all over the place ("click" - moves to the yellow region and then
another click and it goes back to zero, click again and it repeats over
and over, very fast).
Any ideas? It had been working fine (other than the blade issue).
You're losing the field. Check the forward reverse relay; my guess is
one of the contacts is sticking or burned. Replace the MOV that goes
around it, then replace the relay with one of Harold Zimmerman's big
relays.
E15's eat field relays. Replace it and your problem goes away.
Chris
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Wonder what idea is worth $50K in connection with this car:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300010742859
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When I am in town I drive in second all the time (0 to 45) mph. When I am
in the country I shift at about 40 to 45 bring it out of 2nd and shift into
third maybe 5 to 10 seconds. When I get back to town I pull it out of 3rd
and back into 2nd. I might touch the accel just a little before going into
second and have no problem.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hastings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: Clutchless S10
how long does it take to shift. I ask because I have an S-15 86 pickup
that has been electric all it's life. Recently I lost hte clutch master
cylinder and have been driving without the clutch a little but in heavy
traffic I really can't shift from 2-3 where I need to because it takes too
long. It feels like _Forever!_ but it probably is only 3-4 seconds.. Which
when going 0-50 is well forever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi out there-------
> Has anyone replaced the 39-8 volt batteries in a Ranger EV with
26-12 Volt
> AGM or Gel batteries yet? Buying "re-manufactured" 8 volt batteries
does
> not seem like a good solution to me. ($5,250) New 8 volt batteries are
> twice as much as used. ($9,000) I can get new 12 volt, equivalent
sized 75
> AH batteries for a little over half the price of the used 8 volt
batteries,
> ($3,100) and save 500# in the process.
> I know the Battery Control Module won't monitor the batteries any
more, but
> so long as the charger still charges, and the little truck still
moves, I
> think it would be worth it.
The truck won't run if the BCM don't all sent the right signals to the
controller. Others have done the 12-to-8v conversion and used a
resistor on each BCM to keep the voltage in range. Don't know the
value, but the Ranger EV list has covered it. Forgot how you join...
> I also want to mount a generator in the truck bed, to greatly extend the
> range.
Don't do it - you'll get comparitively poor mileage. Filling the bed
with a genny means you don't plan on carrying much else, so you might
as well drive a station wagon with better aerodynamics, more efficient
ICE, and tighter pollution controls.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
Looks like someone is more than doubling the cost of the batteries to you.
The Trojan 8 volts 150 AH T-875 cost $77.25 wholesale price exchange.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 7:18 PM
Subject: Ranger EV Battery Modifications
> Hi out there-------
> Has anyone replaced the 39-8 volt batteries in a Ranger EV with 26-12 Volt
> AGM or Gel batteries yet? Buying "re-manufactured" 8 volt batteries does
> not seem like a good solution to me. ($5,250) New 8 volt batteries are
> twice as much as used. ($9,000) I can get new 12 volt, equivalent sized
> 75
> AH batteries for a little over half the price of the used 8 volt
> batteries,
> ($3,100) and save 500# in the process.
> I know the Battery Control Module won't monitor the batteries any more,
> but
> so long as the charger still charges, and the little truck still moves, I
> think it would be worth it.
> I also want to mount a generator in the truck bed, to greatly extend the
> range. The question there, is to run AC to the on-board charger, or DC
> directly to the batteries?
> Once that works, I can go with a smaller battery pack, saving more weight.
> Check out our Website! Pacpower.biz
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Mark Frederick
> 12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
> Auburn, CA 95602
> Cell 530-277-1985
> Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
> Fax 530-887-1986
>
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> * This post contains a forbidden message format *
> * (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
> * Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
> * If your postings display this message your mail program *
> * is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
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>
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--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> I had it in my car using a GE EV-1 controller
> I know someone else who used it on an 84 V and even
> a 112 V system, but he didn't use it nearly as
> aggressively as I did in my car. I always drove
> mine with my foot to the floor, contactor engaged
Can you tell us more about your and your friend's EVs?
I've got an EV-1 in my car at the moment, fed by 120V of Optima YTs.
With the current limit presently set to 450A, it is quite peppy(no need
to drive with one's foot to the floor), but the contactor bypass would
get me to current limit (or beyond ;^) quicker from a dead stop. I've
got a Kilovac wired in for 1A bypass duty (both on demand, i.e. timed
delay from the pedal hiting the floor, and on max duty cycle), but have
left the control signal disconnected until I've verified everything else
is working properly.
When you refer to a bypass system being less safe, are you referring to
a system like the EV-1 (which was designed with logic to control a
bypass contactor) being less safe or to adding bypass contactor around a
controller that was not designed to be operated that way? I'm fairly
impressed with the safeties built into the EV-1, but now you've got me
wondering if there's something I should know before connect the 1A
bypass signal to that Kilovac....
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 04:26 PM 23/07/06 -0400, fortunat wrote:
I guess the short version of my question is, is it normal for the voltmeter
pins to only read 150 kOhm between them ?
Short answer: yes
Longer answer: a meter with a moving pointer requires current to move,
usually not much current. The hand moves full scale at some current, which
needs some method to keep it under control. With a voltmeter, a series
resistor is used, the higher the voltage the greater the value of the
series resistor. A value of 150kOhm would be in the range I would expect.
(A digital instrument may have a 10meg-ohm value, as it only needs voltage
to measure, with power coming from somewhere else)
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik} James
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--- Begin Message ---
fortunat mueller wrote:
> Is it possible (normal) for my dashboard voltmeter to have a
> small leakage current through it?
Yes. Ultimately, current must pass through the meter movement in order
that it can indicate the voltage. I don't know if the 150K value you've
measured is normal for your particular meter. At 120V this is about
0.8mA, which seems a bit high for a voltmeter, but perhaps not if the
movement is stiffly sprung and heavily damped to be unaffected by
vibration, etc.
> Anyway, I started disconnecting things (DC/DC and Volt
> meter) and when I tested the voltmeter from positive to
> negative i found it read 150 kOhm.
So, did you find the source of the leakage resulting in the controller
caps remaining precharged?
You didn't mention how the voltmeter was connected, but I'm assuming it
was across pack negative and positive on the battery side of both main
contactors (so you could read pack voltage even with the key off). If
this is the case, leakage through it might slowly drain your pack, but
it shouldn'tbe able to afect the controller caps unless there is leakage
around the main contactors somehow.
You might try leaving the precharge fuse out and DC/DC disconnected and
let the controller caps discharge before reconnecting the battery.
Reconnect the battery and wait a bit to see if there is any sign of
movement on the cap voltage. If not, reinstall the precharge fuse and
wait again. If there is still no movement, reconnect the DC/DC and wait
again to see if the caps start charging. Eventually you will find the
culprit!
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Cor van de Water wrote:
Steve Powers wrote:
250 mile range. Who can honestly say that they really need a car like
that.
The key is in the 'honest', as one of the
comments I read about the Tesla that the range
was so limited - "give me a car that does 500
miles and it becomes interesting." or along those lines.
It appears that nay-sayers always want double the amount that is
available.
When EVs did 50 miles, they needed 100.
When they did 80 they needed at least 150
Then the RAV4 EV hit 120 so they needed 250
Now this car delivers 250 so only at 500 is it a feasible car.
Some people simply never get it.
When you don't want to do something, any excuse is as good as another.
In this case, however, the excuse is that it costs $100,000 which isn't
a bad excuse at all. Especially when you consider that it is about
twice the price of its ICE cousin.
So it isn't really an excuse.
Most people don't want an electric car -- they are happy with what
they have. They invent excuses. They blame high gas prices on the oil
companies, the arabs, or whoever; certainly not their beloved car! For
that would require them to accept some *personal* responsibility for
their actions, and that the (gasp!) change their minds and behavior!
It is easier for such people to insult and poke fun of EVs than to
change their minds.
Perhaps. But there is a reason why EVs have the reputation of being
slow, short range, etc., and it is not because there are electric golf
carts (courses I play usually have gas carts) but because, well, EVs
are slow and short range. Sure, go ahead and point at a handful of
purpose built electric dragsters, but they don't really prove anything
in particular.
The Tesla has a better shot than most at being a decent commercial EV,
but in the end, it isn't a sure thing by any stretch. Just doing some
quick math - they have raised some $40M in capital, at $100k a piece,
they need to sell 400 vehicles just to make that back. The car is very
similar to an Elise - it is a 2 seater, limited space and utility,
performance oriented - and Lotus sells less than a thousand annually in
the US, at less than half the price.
The Elise appeals to people who autocross and track their cars, not put
them on the drag strip. But faster is always good in the performance
crowd, so the 0-60 is a plus. However, it also weighs nearly 800 lbs
more than an Elise - almost 50% more - that is going to make a huge
difference in the handling of the car. Not that a 2500 lb car can't be
made to handle well, that's still light, but it will be entirely
different from the Elise.
High dollar performance cars are the place to be if you are going to be
a low volume car builder. What will determine whether they can make is
not the stereotypes, but the real world performance. Because there are
only so many people willing to pay a premium for not paying for a
premium - people who can afford $100k cars really don't inquire about
the gas mileage much - a handful of Hollywood celebrities
notwithstanding. If it is faster not just to 60 but around the corners,
too, it has a good shot. Otherwise, it faces the true EV challenge -
offering the buyer less for more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That auction reminded me of the legend that Nikola Tesla created a
"Free-Energy" car. Link:
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=1062
-Vivek
On 7/23/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Wonder what idea is worth $50K in connection with this car:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300010742859
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Anyway, I started disconnecting things (DC/DC and Volt
> meter) and when I tested the voltmeter from positive to
> negative i found it read 150 kOhm.
Usually those small meters are rated for 1mA when the needle is all the
way to the right. The "faceplate" can be replaced with a different
printing, such as volts. I've done it myself. So, the value you
measured would make perfect sense for a 150V maximum reading (for your
120V pack).
> I have a pretty standard electrical set up. My fiero is 120 V nominal
> pack voltage. I have two contactors (Kilovacs) between the pack and
> the controller. The contactor on the negative side (C1) comes on with
> the key. The contactor on the positive side of the pack (C2) comes on
> with the high limit switch on the pot box. Since my controller mishap
> early this year, I also have a precharge contactor (along with
> resistor and fuse) that is in parallel with C2 and comes on at the
> same time as C1. My volt meter and DC/DC converter are connected to
> the controller side of C1 and to the pack side of C2 (so that they
> come on with the key regardless of pedal position).
It is expected and predictable for the controller (+) terminal to be
130V above the pack (-). You may also find that the controller (-)
terminal is also 130V above the pack (-). But there should be little
voltage *across* the controller's capacitors (which would pose a greater
safety hazard). Why, you may ask?
The controller (+) terminal should be 130V because its partner, the (-)
terminal, is connected to the battery pack (+) through a resistor.
Since you have a contactor on each side of the controller, it's isolated
and can float about - besides the meter's resistance. What you're
seeing is it floating but being lightly pulled to one side of the pack
by the meter. This may pose a safety hazard depending on how it's laid
out, but no capacitors are charged. (Electrolytics actually have a
fairly high leakage current.) I would recommend never connecting a
contactor in the negative side of a circuit. If you put C1 and C2 in
series on the positive side, you won't measure 130V but instead 0V from
controller (+) to pack (-), and you can use the car the same way.
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 1:46 PM
Subject: WarP 11 in Pickup (was RE: Chelsea Sexton to appear...)
Oops shoudla changed subject line.
Is this the Lamborghini of which you speak?
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/819
That's the one , I was over a Paul's one night and that Lamborghini had a
bad gas motor , we got to talking and worked out a deal , where I'd put my
ev parts in and am part owner :-) I pulled the 11 " out of my green race
truck the Mitsubishi mighty max seen here
http://www.grassrootsev.com/mits.htm and when my 2k zilla gets here that
will go in also. For now It will have to suffer with a 1k.
Nice!!!
How well did that 11" WarP fit into your Pickup?
Very well , the mounting holes for the 9" are the same so I could use the
same adapter plate. Size wise its still smaller that a gas engine .
Steve Clunn
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of steve clunn
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 7:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chelsea Sexton to appear at July 29 Florida premiere of
WKtEC! - Diablo
Paul's Lamborghini is getting the EV drive stuff from my race truck , I
made the adaptor for his tranny last night , we got some work to do ,
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Chelsea Sexton to appear at July 29 Florida premiere of
WKtEC! - Diablo
>2) a brand new, stunning, electric Lamborghini
Diablo,
I looked all over for more information including the
www.floridaeaa.org website which doesn't have much
info.
Do you have any links for more info on this EV?
Thanks,
Rod
--- Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello to all EV enthusiasts in Florida!
Chelsea Sexton will be joining us for the Florida
gala premiere of Sony
Pictures Classics' film "Who Killed the Electric
Car?" in Boca Raton on
Saturday evening, July 29 at:
Regal Shadowood 16 Cinemas
9889 West Glades Rd.
Boca Raton, FL 33434
tel: 800-326-3264
The theater is in the shopping center on the
northeast corner of Glades Rd.
and Rte. 441 (State Rte. 7) in West Boca.
The Florida Electric Auto Association
(www.floridaeaa.org) will be
displaying the following four EVs in the pedestrian
courtyard immediately in
front of the theater entrance:
1) Matt Graham's famous "Joule Injected" electric
Nissan 240SX, which is
only the third full-bodied electric car in
history to exceed 100mph in
the quarter-mile drag race,
2) a brand new, stunning, electric Lamborghini
Diablo,
3) an equally exciting electric Porsche 959,
4) a Toyota RAV4-EV.
The EV exhibition in front of the theater will run
from 5pm to 7pm, where we
will be handing out the very nicely done tri-fold
flyers and 4x6 "Not Dead
Yet" cards produced by Plug-in America
(www.pluginamerica.com).
The movie will start sometime between 7:00pm and
7:20pm, to be determined by
Sony Pictures in the next few days. You should be
at the theater no later
than 7:00pm.
Chelsea Sexton will conduct a Question & Answer
session in the theater
immediately after the film, which will then be
followed by a reception for
her with moviegoers, the media, and public officials
at a nearby venue to be
announced during the Q&A session.
Chelsea will be available here in South Florida all
day Friday, July 28 for
media interviews, which Sony Pictures, their South
Florida publicist, and we
in the Florida EAA are working on lining up for her.
If you have any media
contacts in Florida who you think might be
interested in interviewing
Chelsea, could you please contact me off-list at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] TV,
radio, and print journalists who might have
potential interest can view the
movie's trailer at:
www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar.
All EV enthusiasts in Florida as well as those who
are just curious and
want to learn more about EVs are cordially invited
to join Chelsea and the
rest of us for this gala premiere of "Who Killed the
Electric Car?". If you
are coming from Central Florida, North Florida, or
the Gulf Coast and need
accommodations for Saturday night, I live 9 miles
from the theater and
have 6 extra beds to spare, although I think one of
them may already be
spoken for by Steve Clunn, not sure yet. You would
have to be responsible
for your own transportation and meals, although
you're welcome to rummage
through my fridge for anything that you think might
be remotely edible.
Contact me off-list if you're coming long-distance
and have such a need for
accommodations.
We anticipate a packed house, so you might want to
think about buying your
tickets early, especially if you are coming from
farther away.
See you all next Saturday evening, July 29!
Charles Whalen
Public Relations Director
Florida Electric Auto Association
(www.floridaeaa.org)
Delray Beach, FL
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
