EV Digest 5692
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fried SSR
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Jet Electrica upgrade
by Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) re: EV AC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Isolation transformer
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Jet Electrica upgrade Hints Tricks Help
by Jimmy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) solectria force
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Mark Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
by "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
This was my thought as well, inrush current. Does the IOTA have any inrush
limiting device?
This probably isn't the best application for an SSR. Relays can handle the
inrush currents better.
Regards,
Chris Brune
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: Fried SSR
> It has two 470uF Caps on the input...
>
> Paul G. Wrote:
> "I'm going to take a first guess. The surge input current was exceeded.
> Its only around 48 amps for a few milliseconds. I wonder how much input
> cap the Iota has?"
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2006, at 7:58 AM, Grigg. John wrote:
>
> > I think I just blew my brand new SSR, its a 400V DC D4D12 Crydom
> > module.
> > I wired it up to control my new IOTA DLS-220-55 to turn on when the
> > key is in the ignition. Turned on but it never turned off. The only
> > thing I can think of that might have fried the SSR was not installing
> > the Transient protection diode yet. With module unwired, there is 80
> > Ohms of resistance across the output. I guessing this is bad?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An Ahnold EV grin? Well, if you watch the video at cbsnews:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/22/eveningnews/main1826843.shtml
(click on the video section on the right)
then, a few seconds from the end, you can clearly hear the Governator
saying "Very nice" as he comes back from his ride.
jorg
On 7/20/06, Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
is that...is that an EV Grin on Ahhnolds face? :-O
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 5:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
>
>
> Ah,
> Just after sending my email I noticed that JB drove the Governor
> around during the unveiling of Tesla's Roadster!
> http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/IMG_6891.jpg
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cor van de Water
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:38 PM
> To: '[email protected]'
> Subject: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
>
>
> I figure that if we only send it to ourselves, then
> nobody gets the message, so I encourage EVeryone in CA
> to get the Gov's attention to steer the future to a
> better technology instead of Hydrogen derailment.
> Message pasted below my sig.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> Hello Governor,
> I live in Sunnyvale,CA and I am very interested in your initiatives
> to make the cars and trucks clean, as well as to rid ourselves from
> the dependence on foreign oil.
> Personally I commute to San Jose using an Electric Vehicle and as
> the long-range vehicle in the family we have a Prius.
>
> The news I heard from Europe clearly indicates that leading scientists
> have proven that the Hydrogen Fuel Cell is not a solution.
> Not at this moment and also not in the future.
> The reason is that the efficiency will always be much worse than other
> technologies. Even burning petrol as we do today is more efficient than
> a Hydrogen Fuel Cell, so that technology is clearly a step backwards
> for oil dependence and the environment. The best technology is 2 to 4 times
> better in its efficiency and it is also already available, so there is no
> waiting for future improvements, it is here, today.
> In fact, I use it every day to commute to work.
>
> You may be aware that in the SF Bay Area several start-up companies
> have unveiled new cars that run entirely on Batteries, they do not
> need the intermediate step via Hydrogen to get a high performance
> and long range vehicle. Up to 300 miles is available, today.
> Battery technology has advanced and will continue to advance, so the
> old complaints about EVs do no longer hold.
>
> I like to discuss the reasons why you planned the Hydrogen Highway
> and give you background information why it would be very beneficial
> to California to convert that plan into a Renewable Highway, which
> includes incentives for energy forms that have a future in our
> transportation, now Hydrogen has lost its future.
> For an authority on Fuel Cells and the background studies why the
> European Fuel Cell Forum has dropped their support for Hydrogen,
> please go to: http://www.efcf.com/
>
> I trust that you, as the leader of the state, are flexible and
> visionary enough to respond to this "inconvenient truth" in a way
> that benefits us all, including the environment.
> To make sure you see this email, I will ask you the next time that
> I see you what your response is to the changes in the knowledge
> about Hydrogen Fuel Cells and your stimulation of general availability
> for the better technologies that are already proven.
>
> For your information: Last night there was a grand unveiling of
> the latest in EVs: the Tesla Motors' Roadster:
> http://www.teslamotors.com
>
> Kind Regards,
> Cor van de Water
> http://evalbum.com/694
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is quite funny. I have the Jet Industries ford courier pick-up.
In my case
the Curtis PMC-25 gave up on ME. I can afford a new controller
(and had to have it yesterday since this is my daily driver). So I got
a Curtis 1221C.
120v 400A (I know, not the best; but it was shippable Yesterday!)
It arrived, and in a few hours I had everything swapped and ready to go.
MAN! what broken-down dog the PMC-25 was!. With the 1221C my old tank
is snapping my neck. This is way cool. What pep and zip the motor puts out.
Clearly the old controller was sicker than I knew.
If you have the really old PMC-25, replace it quick.
jolly roger
Subject:
Jet Electrica upgrade Hints Tricks Help
From:
Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:35:10 -0500
To:
[email protected]
I have given up on the Jets original motor controller. It will be
May before I can afford a new one. I am going to redo the electrical
while I am waiting to buy. I would like suggestions on what to do to
the car while I am waiting. Planned so far.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So it's really just a case of unbalanced batteries. In this case, I
intend to simply lower the voltage set point (as per Ralph's email),
drive the car a mile, and charge again. Then 5 miles round trip to the
DMV, and charge again.
If I can get it to stop running backwards.
I don't have any way to hand charge, but I'm not considering buying a
12V charger. The PFC-20 had an internal light that was blinking in time
to the next-to-last reg, so I'm confident of the reg wiring (thanks
again, Matt!). I'll do more in-depth testing if I can't get those red
LEDs off after 20 or 30 miles, and I'll watch the charging closely until
I'm more comfortable with it.
I may have a working EV today!
Thanks,
Jude
Rich Rudman wrote:
Nope!
you just are in Reg HELL!
That means you are doing your first euqlization stage.
All the full ones are full and banging against the charger correctly.. and
you still have some weak ones coming on to full charge.
I some times fool them and bump the current to clear the last pesky red
leds. Crank amps to 0, Wait for the voltge sag.. hammer on full amps for
about 1 second.. the system over shoots them grabs control again. This
clears the Regs that are sitting at 14 something, and change, But not a full
14.8.
If this persist check the voltage on the battery that just won't clear it's
Red LED.
Yellow... Umm Not gonna See it!. It only lights:
When A Dip sw 6 is turned on... for AGM equalization. Not recomended. I use
this to test the RegBuss cable integrity. Neat feature...
Or You have a battery that is below 10 volts and the charger is ON. This
would be a VERY bad thing to have happen. But...
The Yellow will only light on a Mk2B when the charger is powered up. So
seeing yellow while driving is not going to happen...
Unless... you add the LOW BATT trick circuit, that I have only made 3 of....
So.. forget the yellow while driving, go ahead and play with it on the
charger... All the yellows should light if they all really have good data
cables installed.
Oh yea.. other Reg tricks. The little header RT2 right by the RJs, if
shorted out...should tell the charger that reg is hot. The charger should
snap back to zero amps in about
2.5 seconds. Do this on the last Reg.. this checks that the Hot Reg Opto
and signal lines are compitent to the charger, and the RT2 short tests the
Low batt lines.
the other lines are power and gnd.. clearly if the led and the hot reg
sginal are active... Pwr and GND are also.
Get a meter on those last to clear Red LEDs... they could be trouble. hand
charge to 14.8 and less than 2 amps if you can. this should drop them into
line with the rest of the
fully charged pack.
Gotta go..
I have Spiffy Manzanita Micro Charging systems sticker ready.. In Seattle...
There goes the afternoon.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
It's been a disappointing day.
I finally hooked everything up. That was cool. I only electrocuted
myself once, probably because my converter is a Todd, so it's always
ready to draw some current. Very minor.
I roasted a voltmeter trying to measure the resistance of the emergency
circuit breaker (to figure out why I electrocuted myself) with all the
batteries hooked up. More sparks! More knowledge. I will learn from
these mistakes.
My 12V battery was nearly dead. I had very weak lights, until I closed
the emergency circuit breaker. Then everything was nice and bright.
Probably that converter doing its job. Unfortunately, several of my
Rudman MK2B regulators immediately reported undervoltage, but that's no
biggie.
But I couldn't get the wheels to spin. That was the big
disappointment. But I figured, hey, my batteries have been sitting on
the garage floor for nearly four weeks. Maybe they're too weak to power
the Curtis 1231C.
This is my first attempt to charge an EV. I tried to calibrate the
PFC-20, according to its instructions. Without a voltmeter, I thought
I'd have some serious problems. But then I remembered my eMeter. It
showed 147V, and this is a 144V pack of 12 YellowTops. Maybe they
aren't as dead as I thought. I figured charging them was still a good
idea, so I carried on.
The eMeter reports between -9 and -12 amps, which seems to indicate good
behavior. I'm charging from standard house current. After about five
minutes of adjusting the voltage upwards, the pack was at 160V or so,
and the first regulator came on. I turned down the current a bit to get
it to turn off, and kept adjusting the voltage up. It came on quickly.
I decided to leave it there and allow charging to continue, since I
hadn't seen the yellow limit light lately.
After about 30 minutes, another regulator started blinking green. An
hour and a half later, a few of the red ones have started blinking
green. There are still four red ones left, but the others seem happy.
It's the charger that's bothering me. All the blinking regulators
stopped at once, and the charger started flashing the blue timer light
without the yellow limit light. The manual seems to indicate that means
a regulator went over its max temp or something and the charger started
a timeout. It keeps happening every ten minutes or so, though.
None of the regulators gets a yellow lamp, at least as far as I can see;
does the RegBus prevent that?
It's been nearly four hours now, so I turned down the current again and
turned the voltage up a bit. I won't let it go over 180V, but I would
like those red LEDs to turn off and get the regulators all blinking
green. I've still got three red ones.
I was expecting a quick ramp-up to 180V, followed by a finishing
charge. I'm getting this ten-minute pulsing. Is this expected behavior
for the calibration charge? Am I making another mistake? Have I
($DEITY forbid) already murdered my first pack???
Thanks in advance,
Jude Anthony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently read a post stating that using 2 motors working in
series/parallel with a zilla controller means you can do without the
transmission. This would seem to be the way to go, considering that the
adaptor plate runs about $800 vs. the additional motor, which would run
about $1500 - sure, it's an extra $700, but seems like you would be getting
a lot of "bang" for the buck. On top of that, you'd be REPLACING the
transmission with the 2nd motor, so I would think the weight differential
would be close to nil....heck, the motor might even be lighter.
I'm planning an S-10 conversion (haven't bought the truck yet). I just
received my Warp 9 motor, and have the 300V 1K zilla controller on order.
Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Am I missing something? I am in
the process of my first conversion, and I'd much rather go w/ the 2 motor
setup - arguments for/against welcome!
Thanks, Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
photovoltaics are in the plans, but the shades were quick and easy.
I hope to get my 0.2 amps from solar one of these years.
solar is great that it absorbs the heat and gives some power
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jorg,
This is true with the PEM fuel cell that needs liquid hydrogen to operated.
The PEM (Proton Membrane Exchange are very expensive which uses platinum,
palladium and liquid hydrogen which cost 10 times more than the AFC fuel
cell that I will used in my next modification of my EV.
The AFC (Alkailne Fuel Cell) uses ammonia (NH3) which the fuel cell breaks
down into hydrogen. This is a very common product used in agriculture and
refrigeration. The new type A/C units (new here in the Unite States) will
replace the normal A/C gases we have now.
This is what GM, Ford and NASA is using in there research and some of there
products.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
> An Ahnold EV grin? Well, if you watch the video at cbsnews:
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/22/eveningnews/main1826843.shtml
>
> (click on the video section on the right)
>
> then, a few seconds from the end, you can clearly hear the Governator
> saying "Very nice" as he comes back from his ride.
>
> jorg
>
> On 7/20/06, Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > is that...is that an EV Grin on Ahhnolds face? :-O
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 5:46 PM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
> > >
> > >
> > > Ah,
> > > Just after sending my email I noticed that JB drove the Governor
> > > around during the unveiling of Tesla's Roadster!
> > > http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/IMG_6891.jpg
> > >
> > > Cor van de Water
> > > Systems Architect
> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Cor van de Water
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:38 PM
> > > To: '[email protected]'
> > > Subject: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
> > >
> > >
> > > I figure that if we only send it to ourselves, then
> > > nobody gets the message, so I encourage EVeryone in CA
> > > to get the Gov's attention to steer the future to a
> > > better technology instead of Hydrogen derailment.
> > > Message pasted below my sig.
> > >
> > > Cor van de Water
> > > Systems Architect
> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Governor,
> > > I live in Sunnyvale,CA and I am very interested in your initiatives
> > > to make the cars and trucks clean, as well as to rid ourselves from
> > > the dependence on foreign oil.
> > > Personally I commute to San Jose using an Electric Vehicle and as
> > > the long-range vehicle in the family we have a Prius.
> > >
> > > The news I heard from Europe clearly indicates that leading scientists
> > > have proven that the Hydrogen Fuel Cell is not a solution.
> > > Not at this moment and also not in the future.
> > > The reason is that the efficiency will always be much worse than other
> > > technologies. Even burning petrol as we do today is more efficient
> > > than
> > > a Hydrogen Fuel Cell, so that technology is clearly a step backwards
> > > for oil dependence and the environment. The best technology is 2 to 4
> > > times
> > > better in its efficiency and it is also already available, so there is
> > > no
> > > waiting for future improvements, it is here, today.
> > > In fact, I use it every day to commute to work.
> > >
> > > You may be aware that in the SF Bay Area several start-up companies
> > > have unveiled new cars that run entirely on Batteries, they do not
> > > need the intermediate step via Hydrogen to get a high performance
> > > and long range vehicle. Up to 300 miles is available, today.
> > > Battery technology has advanced and will continue to advance, so the
> > > old complaints about EVs do no longer hold.
> > >
> > > I like to discuss the reasons why you planned the Hydrogen Highway
> > > and give you background information why it would be very beneficial
> > > to California to convert that plan into a Renewable Highway, which
> > > includes incentives for energy forms that have a future in our
> > > transportation, now Hydrogen has lost its future.
> > > For an authority on Fuel Cells and the background studies why the
> > > European Fuel Cell Forum has dropped their support for Hydrogen,
> > > please go to: http://www.efcf.com/
> > >
> > > I trust that you, as the leader of the state, are flexible and
> > > visionary enough to respond to this "inconvenient truth" in a way
> > > that benefits us all, including the environment.
> > > To make sure you see this email, I will ask you the next time that
> > > I see you what your response is to the changes in the knowledge
> > > about Hydrogen Fuel Cells and your stimulation of general availability
> > > for the better technologies that are already proven.
> > >
> > > For your information: Last night there was a grand unveiling of
> > > the latest in EVs: the Tesla Motors' Roadster:
> > > http://www.teslamotors.com
> > >
> > > Kind Regards,
> > > Cor van de Water
> > > http://evalbum.com/694
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been keeping my eyes open for an isolation transformer and ran across this
one. Does anyone
know if this will fit the bill? I intend to use it with a PFC-30. Here are the
details;
Powertronix BB-40100-B
input 200-240VAC
output 180-264vac
Would this unit NOT work with 110?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Matt,
I would definitely replace the wiring and go to 2/0, 1 ga will not only be
inefficient it may be dangerous at a higher voltage and current.
Unfortunately, the cost of welding cable has recently gone up to over
$4./ft, so you may want to build them yourself. If you have a recycler
nearby sometimes they may have some 2/0 wire someone scrapped out also
check electronic surplus stores.
I have an 81 Jet Electrica and removed the charger and 12v battery up
front and added (3) 6vs, for a total of (7) up front and still have room
for my controller. I was surprised at the amount of corrosion I found
when I removed the original plastic lining from the battery boxes. I made
two new boxes up front out of stainless sheet. I re-oriented the 3 lower
and fit 4 on the upper tier.
Why the original controller was in the rear is still baffling. I will
shoe-horn my DC/DC and vac reservoir in when the dust settles.
I added 4 batts under the rear seat (not easy) and rebuilt the rear Batt
box (open frame) I have a total of 22 6v batteries, I will be looking at
some air shocks to assist in the extra weight. I would not use 8v, the
capacity is less than 6v and if you are use to 6v they are a
disappointment. Add as many 6s as you can.
As for wiring, I ended up removing the whole harness to the rear and only
installed the shunt in the rear (neg terminal) so I only needed about (4)
14 ga wires going to the back (2 shunt and 2 for fan), originally there
was around 20! As a result, I wont need to buy any wire for a while.
Good Luck,
Jimmy
> > From: Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> CC: "Schalles, Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Jet Electrica upgrade Hints Tricks Help
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:35:10 -0500
>
>
> I have given up on the Jets original motor controller. It will be
> May before I can afford a new one. I am going to redo the electrical
> while I am waiting to buy. I would like suggestions on what to do to
> the car while I am waiting. Planned so far.
>
> 1. Move the new controller from the back of the car to the front
> closer to the motor.
> 2. Take the 3 phase charger out of the car and use it as a bulk
> charger at night. This also gives me space for the controller and a
> dc-dc converter in the front.
> 3. Put in the dc-dc converter.
> 4. Gang/opportunity charger goes in back next to the main battery
> box.
> 5. Repaint and insulate the battery boxes. I found some spray on
> tool coat at Harbor Freight.
> 6. Upgrade to 108 or 120 volt system.
> 7. Put in the Powercheq units.
> 8. Cover the long runs of 1 gage wire in PVC.
>
> Anything else I have forgotten? Any hints from the Jet owners to make
> this a better and easier upgrade?
>
>
> R. Matt Milliron
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
3 solectria force for sale (some need work) like charger and batteries.
starting price $8,000
These were used as shared cars back and forth to the train station. the
interest didn't remain.
through transoptions. I can't think I want one, even for the AC, which was
adequate, not fantastic for the Geo.
good luck if you do want one.
http://www.transoptions.org/
John Fiore
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Mark Frederick wrote:
Is cost the only reason every one is talking about DC motors? The Siemens AC
motors are
available...it just seems like a good solution.
In the context of this thread, building a sporty EV, how are the Siemens
AC motor/inverter combos a 'good solution'? AC does bring a small
efficiency gain (about 3%), regen, and few unique features, but in most
people's minds none of these have anything to do with a 'sporty EV'. In
the context of this thread, how does 135 kw even remotely compare to the
400-500 kw of power provided by a Zilla Z2K & DC motor system?
What am I missing?
You're missing one of the biggest allures for a fun, sporting
car....POWER! The AC drives that most can afford (so yes, it's also
cost) run up to $10,000 for a mere ~135 kw of power. Which would you
rather have, if your objective is to have slam-you-in-the-seat power and
0-60 quick enough to embarrass muscle cars, hot tweaked ricer imports,
and even exotica cars....135 kw for $10,000, or 400 kw for $8000? Let's
put it another way....in the same car with the same battery pack size,
weight, and voltage, and keeping in mind that we are seeking to have fun
in this proposed sporty car, which would you rather have...0-60 in 9
seconds like a 4 cylinder automatic economy car or a fat and lazy SUV,
or 0-60 in a scorching 4 seconds like a 500+ hp Viper? Which sounds more
'sporty' to you?
Drop the AC price range to, say $6000 and you get about 65 kw, but for
just $4000 you can use a Zilla Z1K and a 9 inch DC motor and make 170
kw, nearly three times the power for 2/3 the price. The AC system is
forced to use a high voltage pack (or you get very little power) but the
DC system will allow you to run a lower voltage, high current pack.
Using identical vehicles (other than the power train choice) the AC one
goes 0-60 in 14-15 seconds, the DC one goes 0-60 in 6-7 seconds....one
has all the acceleration passion of Geo Metro or a VW bus, the other
that of a hairy chested V8 Camaro or a tire shredding Plymouth Road
Runner. Again, which one is more 'sporty'?
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The AFC (Alkailne Fuel Cell) uses ammonia (NH3) which the fuel cell
breaks
> down into hydrogen. This is a very common product used in
agriculture and
> refrigeration. The new type A/C units (new here in the Unite
States) will
> replace the normal A/C gases we have now.
>
> This is what GM, Ford and NASA is using in there research and some
of there
> products.
Ammonia refrigeration is actually one of the *oldest* forms:
http://www.iiar.org/greenpaper.pdf but using it as an energy carrier
molecule might be less appealing. How much energy does it take to make
enough ammonia to create a kWh of end-product energy?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, you make good points, now for another question. Can you charge these
batteries while the car is running? I think about 25 kw would keep a slick
car running down the level highway. I am thinking the electric drive can
launch the car, and a small IC engine running on whatever (gas, nat gas,
hydrogen, etc), can give it unlimited range. I think the engine/generator
will weigh less than 150 mile range of batteries. I can't wait for the
Li-Ion batteries to come down in price. I got a quote from Valence in
Austin, Tx, and it was $2050 for a group 24 sized battery.
Mark Frederick
12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
Auburn, CA 95602
Cell 530-277-1985
Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
Fax 530-887-1986
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV
Hello to All,
Mark Frederick wrote:
>Is cost the only reason every one is talking about DC motors? The Siemens
AC motors are
>available...it just seems like a good solution.
>
In the context of this thread, building a sporty EV, how are the Siemens
AC motor/inverter combos a 'good solution'? AC does bring a small
efficiency gain (about 3%), regen, and few unique features, but in most
people's minds none of these have anything to do with a 'sporty EV'. In
the context of this thread, how does 135 kw even remotely compare to the
400-500 kw of power provided by a Zilla Z2K & DC motor system?
>What am I missing?
You're missing one of the biggest allures for a fun, sporting
car....POWER! The AC drives that most can afford (so yes, it's also
cost) run up to $10,000 for a mere ~135 kw of power. Which would you
rather have, if your objective is to have slam-you-in-the-seat power and
0-60 quick enough to embarrass muscle cars, hot tweaked ricer imports,
and even exotica cars....135 kw for $10,000, or 400 kw for $8000? Let's
put it another way....in the same car with the same battery pack size,
weight, and voltage, and keeping in mind that we are seeking to have fun
in this proposed sporty car, which would you rather have...0-60 in 9
seconds like a 4 cylinder automatic economy car or a fat and lazy SUV,
or 0-60 in a scorching 4 seconds like a 500+ hp Viper? Which sounds more
'sporty' to you?
Drop the AC price range to, say $6000 and you get about 65 kw, but for
just $4000 you can use a Zilla Z1K and a 9 inch DC motor and make 170
kw, nearly three times the power for 2/3 the price. The AC system is
forced to use a high voltage pack (or you get very little power) but the
DC system will allow you to run a lower voltage, high current pack.
Using identical vehicles (other than the power train choice) the AC one
goes 0-60 in 14-15 seconds, the DC one goes 0-60 in 6-7 seconds....one
has all the acceleration passion of Geo Metro or a VW bus, the other
that of a hairy chested V8 Camaro or a tire shredding Plymouth Road
Runner. Again, which one is more 'sporty'?
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Mohlere wrote:
> Am I missing something?
I think you've summed up the pros fairly well, here are a few cons:
- the stock tranny provides a means of connecting the motors to the
driveshaft/rear end; removing it means you may have to design something
yourself and pay for custom machinework to build it.
- you will need to provide some means of coupling the 2 motors together;
even if you find an off-the-shelf coupler from an industrial supplier,
this is another additional cost.
- the stock tranny provides reverse gear; without it you need to invest
in reversing contactor(s) to electrically reverse the motor(s) - this is
another few to several hundred dollars additional cost.
- the stock tranny largely provides a means of mounting/locating the
motor(s); removing it means you will need to design/fabricate some
custom mounts to support/locate the motor(s), instead of just a fairly
simple mount to support the weight of the single motor (and both the
adapter plate and motor bracket(s) for a single motor S10 conversion
with tranny are available off-the-shelf from EV parts suppliers).
- you may need to run a higher pack voltage than you would have
otherwise in order to maximise the benefit of series/parallel switching
(the higher the voltage, the longer you can run in series mode "low
gear")
The two motor approach is definitely an interesting option; the cons can
probably be summed up as additional cost and additional custom
fabrication required to perform the conversion.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
racer has to have a good charger too. A major benefit of an AC system
is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
duty as a charger. A 20kw charger. All of the brands of AC systems
that I've worked on do this. What's that worth? About the same as a
PFC20 I'd guess. That makes the cost gap between AC and DC closer yet.
The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
there. But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
sane, simple box with some adjustability that sources 400kw+ peak and
a built in charger as a bonus. I want to make a brain dead AC system
that bolts into my Dolphin box so I can race again. Baylands has been
closed a long time.
For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge margin.
Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long. ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
long. Literally for hours on end. AC motors do not have brushes and
all the assorted headaches. If you want to run more voltage you
just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics. That's
a drag racers wet dream.
The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery pack
that can source 2000 amps. A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
second vehicle. How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
With a 1000 amp pack requirement, suddenly a guy is not stuck with
YT's or Orbitals. Now he can run Nimh or nicads that are far lighter.
So either make a pack with still more amp hours in the same space or
just run a lighter vehicle.
Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
the shop. See, AC vehicles have very high built in efficiency, so they
not only conserve on what-hours per mile but also on Dollars per mile.
Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship ;)
If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is today
for many folks. A single person could also do the same thing and make
a reliable AC system.
This is how I see AC over DC. AC looses for now due to cost. But
that's not because it's that expensive to make. It's because of the
economy of scale. If AC systems were as common as DC systems, this
thread would never have happened.
Mike
PS the next time someone tries to sell you on how great DC systems
are, ask him how many AC systems he's owned ;)
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Mark Frederick wrote:
>
> >Is cost the only reason every one is talking about DC motors? The
Siemens AC motors are
> >available...it just seems like a good solution.
> >
>
> In the context of this thread, building a sporty EV, how are the
Siemens
> AC motor/inverter combos a 'good solution'? AC does bring a small
> efficiency gain (about 3%), regen, and few unique features, but in most
> people's minds none of these have anything to do with a 'sporty EV'.
In
> the context of this thread, how does 135 kw even remotely compare to
the
> 400-500 kw of power provided by a Zilla Z2K & DC motor system?
>
> >What am I missing?
>
>
>
> You're missing one of the biggest allures for a fun, sporting
> car....POWER! The AC drives that most can afford (so yes, it's also
> cost) run up to $10,000 for a mere ~135 kw of power. Which would you
> rather have, if your objective is to have slam-you-in-the-seat power
and
> 0-60 quick enough to embarrass muscle cars, hot tweaked ricer imports,
> and even exotica cars....135 kw for $10,000, or 400 kw for $8000? Let's
> put it another way....in the same car with the same battery pack size,
> weight, and voltage, and keeping in mind that we are seeking to have
fun
> in this proposed sporty car, which would you rather have...0-60 in 9
> seconds like a 4 cylinder automatic economy car or a fat and lazy SUV,
> or 0-60 in a scorching 4 seconds like a 500+ hp Viper? Which sounds
more
> 'sporty' to you?
>
> Drop the AC price range to, say $6000 and you get about 65 kw, but for
> just $4000 you can use a Zilla Z1K and a 9 inch DC motor and make 170
> kw, nearly three times the power for 2/3 the price. The AC system is
> forced to use a high voltage pack (or you get very little power) but
the
> DC system will allow you to run a lower voltage, high current pack.
> Using identical vehicles (other than the power train choice) the AC one
> goes 0-60 in 14-15 seconds, the DC one goes 0-60 in 6-7 seconds....one
> has all the acceleration passion of Geo Metro or a VW bus, the other
> that of a hairy chested V8 Camaro or a tire shredding Plymouth Road
> Runner. Again, which one is more 'sporty'?
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm curious how it is going, I was on vacation for a little while and then
haven;'t found it described anymore.
Is there some other PHEV discussion thread it has moved to? I like the PbA
approach better than the $12,000
Li systems better than all those other guys are using. My ideal would be
deep cycle flooded PbA with some ultracaps in parallel to take the peak
currents, esp. good on regen. etc., while the flooded PbA are cheap and have
longer life, etc. Probably not feasible on top of an existing, complicated
Toyota system, but if I were to start from scratch ...
Seth Myers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
another sporty ev project I've seen is at
http://ssinc.us/kitcar/index.htm
using a Shelby cobra kitcar, and hybrid (proposed, not yet implemented) with
a generator. I've heard the tag-along generators would have a hard time
generating power for continuous use (i.e., when your batteries are at their
lowest state of charge, basically sending energy from the generator
to/through the batteries and to the motor/wheels, is basically like trying
to power your car with a generator, which is not so powerful (I suppose a
genereator rating would make the math a little easier to figure out - i.e. a
30kW generator would be like 23 hp motor/energy source,but could you fit
something like that in a car? ok it's listed as 7kW here, probably not a
decent drivability option (?? I'm guessing in quite an unexperienced fashion
here).
Another one is the "espyder" http://www.renewables.com/ElectricSpyder.htm
I've also seen vw based kit car conversion that result in 1200 (ICE system)
vehicles that are supposed to be "great on mileage" since they are so light.
I imagine replace those with an electric system, and you then get great
(electric) mileage.
Seth Myers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: Want to build a sporty EV
> I for one am not ready for the buy it now solution to an EV. The Seimens
AC drive systems are excellent but I want to push things until they break
and the integrate $4K to $10K AC systems don't allow you to mix and match
components. The engineer in me wants to be able to try some new ideas and
test some proven ideas. I want to try blow some stuff up.
>
> Hat's off to guys that have come up with better ideas. The list is
great for sharing ideas.
>
> You can play with a DC system for not too much money so the list has a
lot of DC traffic for members working to improve their EV.
>
> My first two EVs were motorcycles that are working great, go fast and
look good. I tried some new ideas (twin motors, CVT, modular engine,
NiMh/pb hybrid battery pack, etc). Some ideas worked great, some still need
more testing, some I want to forget I tried.
>
> A sporty auto is a new challenge. I am sure I can build a nice one for
a lot less than a Tesla.
>
> Ezesport
>
> Mark Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi there--------
> I think we all want the sporty EV. I envision an AC motor, Inverter, with
> Lithium-Ion Batteries. Drive out of a Ranger EV, batteries from whoever
can
> get the price down to Earth. I think a Kit Car approach, with a standard
> car, with fiberglass panels, or even a hot rod like a '27 T track
roadster.
> this will get the weight down, and overcome the homely stigma. Is cost the
> only reason every one is talking about DC motors? The Siemens AC motors
are
> available, I haven't searched for extra controllers/inverters yet, but it
> just seems like a good solution. What am I missing?
>
> Mark Frederick
> 12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
> Auburn, CA 95602
> Cell 530-277-1985
> Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
> Fax 530-887-1986
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ray Wong
> Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:37 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Want to build a sporty EV
>
>
> Hello list members.
>
> My third EV project will be a sports car. I am finally getting past the
> design and seach for cheap parts stage and now have to make some choices.
I
> welcome any suggestions or comments from the experienced members of the
> list.
>
> I want to build a sporty EV that looks great, goes fast, goes far. OK
> stop laughing.
>
> Here is what I am working with:
>
> 1988 RX7 Gen 2 Turbo - has a great body, new paint, disks all around, 5
> speed, dead engine. Nice looking car. Cda of about 5.95
>
> Choice of twin motors
> - Two Prestolite 4001 twin shaft. These can easily be coupled with a
> spline coupler.
> - Two ADC 203-06-4001M single shaft. These could be belt/chain coupled
> or sent to Jim to add some tandem magic.
>
> Choice on tranny
> - existing RX7 5 speed. Likely need a race clutch. Rear end?
> - Powerglide 2 speed set up for drag racing manual shift
> I will need to make an adapter plate depending on the setup.
>
> Controller
>
> Zilla 2K 300 V if Otmar will return my email so I can get it ordered.
> Parallel/Series switching option
>
> Batteries
>
> I am thinking of a hybrid battery pack using Hawkers for punch and NiMH
> for range. I have some used M-95 NiMh packs from a Ranger EV, tested good
> to +80AH. I replace a few of the weaker cells.
> This is the same type of configuration I used on my EZE sports bike. The
> Hawkers act like big capacitors.
>
> I was thinking of a 192V system with 16 Odyssey 16AH pb (3.1kwh) plus 16
> M-95 NiMh (18.2kwh). Total pack weight 896 lbs. Estimated range of 70-100
> miles.
>
> Guestimate on vehicle weight is 3200- 3300 lbs. That only leaves me 350
> lbs to max GVWR of 3635.
>
> Questions to the group:
>
> 1) Will the 8" ADC give me a whole lot more than the smaller 7.25"
> Prestolite. The Presolite is an easy tandem setup. I would need to send
> the ADC to Jim at Hi-Torque. Jim, pm me with how much?
> 2) The Powerglide is great for drag racing but is a 5 speed better for
> mostly street use. I want to be able to do a burn out and maybe give some
> friends a good first impression of an EV. Edmonton is mostly flat.
> 3) Has anyone else had success with a hybrid battery pack. The biggest
> complaint is the complexity of the BMS/charger setup.
> 4) Should I go higher on pack voltage. 240V?. GWVR weight becomes an
> issue. Pack would be over 1100lbs
> 5) Given the above, can I hope to see a 13 second quarter. What chould I
> change/add to make it faster.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ray Wong
> Ezesport
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
rates starting at 1ยข/min.
>
--- End Message ---
