EV Digest 5720
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Zillas not available?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tesla motor and controller [OT]
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by "Steve Lacy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zillas not available?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) big 'ol HP drives
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tesla motor and controller [OT]
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: big 'ol HP drives
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zillas not available?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Zillas not available?
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zillas not available?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: More on SepEx
by Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AC PMSM traction systems
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Soldering vs Spot welding
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: More on SepEx
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Soldering vs Spot welding
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: ACI Superchargers / Soneil Battery Chargers
by "David Sherritze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Can agree, was: Re:Article on the Tesla.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC PMSM traction systems
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: More on SepEx
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: organic vs Metalic Brakes
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Zivan NG3 charger output voltage flexibility
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Zillas not available?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: In progress EV question
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Zillas not available?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: More on SepEx
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think it's more of an issue of demand has exceeded supply.
Anyone wanna help out?
http://cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
Notice the current product availability:
http://cafeelectric.com/products/price/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The IRGP50B60PD1PbF from International Rectifier.
- Arthur
On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 17:38 +0000, Mike Phillips wrote:
> Glad to hear there is someone else looking to make their own IGBT
> modules. My cnc is ready too, but I'm too buried in repairs to make it
> happen right now. Got any particular IGBT's in mind?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, August 3, 2006 9:01 am, Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> Battery-Battery-Fuse-Battery-Battery-Circuit Breaker-Contactor-Controller
Motor?
:)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That doesn't look like a very reputable dealer to me. And that
(mis-spelled) comment looks like sour grapes, rather unprofessional.
I would steer clear.
Here is the manufacturer's page along with the list of actual dealers:
http://cafeelectric.com/products/zilla/index.html
On 8/3/06, Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The following is a quote from this page-
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/75.htm
"Electric Vehicles does not carry the "Zilla" controllers. The company that
claims to build these is run by a person that does not work with his Dealers
and dose not supply product as advertized.
Please see our New "EV USA" controllers to be released soon."
...
Roy LeMeur
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got an old HP9000 circa 1989 with a couple of 1gb drives that one person
cannot lift. At one time somebody on the list mentioned the possiblity of
using motors from such drives for ev air conditioning. Does anyone know if
that is a viable option? Would they be suitable for the automotive environment?
Any other value in these things - I hate to just throw them away but they are
too beastly to move to my next house.
Carl
Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm guessing 500wh/mile. So you need a 500 kwh pack. That's about 10
times the size of a good sized pack. Whew. Even in litium that would
be a huge pack.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Let's just do a quick "proof of concept" on paper just to show it can
> be done(for the fun of it!).
>
> Let's also use a ludicrous vehicle and power plant to further the
> point that it can be done.
>
>
> 2006 Ford F-150, Zilla 2K, and a 13" WarP motor and use the 5 speed
> manual trans.
>
> I know the big Lithium pack will fit in the bed(or anywhere else).
>
> The question is, how big of a pack in kWh? Pick any existing off the
> shelf battery. How many do we need to ge the range?
>
> Let's not talk about price because our price at our volumes is not the
> same price as Ford's or GM's.
>
> 1000 mile range EV's would change everything. Drive it on the highway
> all day long, recharge it while you sleep and drive it all day long
> again. That should put an end to the range issue.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
My first EV call TRANSFORMER I which I received from EFP Electric Fuel
Propulsion, was test driven way back in 1976 for 1046 miles in 24 hours to
show that a EV can go over 1000 miles in one day.
The car had a 180 volt 300 amp cobalt battery pack, which had a specific
gravity of 1.310 which can be charge up to 252 volts.
This ran a GE-11 series motor rated at 165V at 175 amps 32 hp at 6000 rpm
which I am still running today in my 2nd EV.
The top speed was 92 mph using a 5.57 final gear ratio. The running amps at
60 mph is 180 amps. The average speed for the 1056 miles was 46 mph.
They ran the EV one hour and stop and charge for 20 minutes using a pad
mount 200 amp charging station. The charging station, consist of 50 kva 3
phase transformers at 250 volt delta, that went through a SCR bridge that
had a final voltage of 280 volts DC.
They also could charge the batteries with a portable 37.5 3-phase generator
that can charge the battery pack at 150 amps. This unit was normally use to
transport EV's over a long distance of 500 miles or more.
The course was a combination of test tracks and road courses where they loop
back to the charging stations.
The controller was a 900 amp Cableform unit. In this test run, they had to
replace one 25 amp diode.
At that time, there was the Great Electric Car Race. Maybe Bob Rice knows
more about this. MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech was some of the entrys. They
started out from New York and to end up in California. EFP provide charging
stations across the country and had some EV's enter plus a support vehicle.
None of the entry's make it past Michigan, except for EFP made it all the
way to California.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:08 PM
Subject: The math for a 1000 mile pack
> Let's just do a quick "proof of concept" on paper just to show it can
> be done(for the fun of it!).
>
> Let's also use a ludicrous vehicle and power plant to further the
> point that it can be done.
>
>
> 2006 Ford F-150, Zilla 2K, and a 13" WarP motor and use the 5 speed
> manual trans.
>
> I know the big Lithium pack will fit in the bed(or anywhere else).
>
> The question is, how big of a pack in kWh? Pick any existing off the
> shelf battery. How many do we need to ge the range?
>
> Let's not talk about price because our price at our volumes is not the
> same price as Ford's or GM's.
>
> 1000 mile range EV's would change everything. Drive it on the highway
> all day long, recharge it while you sleep and drive it all day long
> again. That should put an end to the range issue.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur,
$688/1000 from Digikey. 75a at 25c and 45a at 100c.
I wonder which IGBT's Otmar or ACP use?
Have you ever machined an IGBT module open to see how it's constructed?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> The IRGP50B60PD1PbF from International Rectifier.
>
> - Arthur
>
>
> On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 17:38 +0000, Mike Phillips wrote:
> > Glad to hear there is someone else looking to make their own IGBT
> > modules. My cnc is ready too, but I'm too buried in repairs to make it
> > happen right now. Got any particular IGBT's in mind?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's probably something like this,
http://cgi.ebay.com/AMETEK-30VDC-PERMANENT-MAGNET-DC-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ200013761218QQihZ010QQcategoryZ3240QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or item 200013761218
It's a permanent magnet motor with voltage ratings
anywhere from 18Vdc to 36Vdc. I'm not sure if it has
enough power to run a compressor. I think you would
be better off using a treadmill motor that is rated at
90Vdc
Rod
--- Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've got an old HP9000 circa 1989 with a couple of
> 1gb drives that one person cannot lift. At one time
> somebody on the list mentioned the possiblity of
> using motors from such drives for ev air
> conditioning. Does anyone know if that is a viable
> option? Would they be suitable for the automotive
> environment?
>
> Any other value in these things - I hate to just
> throw them away but they are too beastly to move to
> my next house.
>
> Carl
> Denver
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:09 AM -0700 8/3/06, Roy LeMeur wrote:
The following is a quote from this page-
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/75.htm
"Electric Vehicles does not carry the "Zilla" controllers. The
company that claims to build these is run by a person that does not
work with his Dealers and dose not supply product as advertized.
My opinion is that they are just sore since back when they were Cloud
Electric they did not meet our standards for integrity and
performance in order to become a dealer. From what I've heard, the
name change has not changed their approach to doing business.
And yes, Ryan is right. Our backorder list is long. Lacking
affordable help the progress to filling it has been slow. I am
working on a couple large batches now and hopefully in a few months
we'll be doing somewhat better.
Thank you to all of you waiting for controllers for your patience.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Otmar makes a great controller but he need help in running a business.
The dealer is probably quite upset to loose business.
I have been trying to order a Zilla 2K for over a month and Otmar has only
replied once to my many emails, basically saying " I'm too busy, don't bother
me, I don't want your order."
There is an old saying in business. If you don't take care of your
customers, someone else will.
Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The following is a quote from this page-
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/75.htm
"Electric Vehicles does not carry the "Zilla" controllers. The company that
claims to build these is run by a person that does not work with his Dealers
and dose not supply product as advertized.
Please see our New "EV USA" controllers to be released soon."
...
Roy LeMeur
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A nice pic of the battery with the tabs:
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/buyKit.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ray and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zillas not available?
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
>I think Otmar makes a great controller but he need help in
>running a business. The dealer is probably quite upset to
>loose business.
>
> I have been trying to order a Zilla 2K for over a month
>and Otmar has only replied once to my many emails,
>basically saying " I'm too busy, don't bother me, I don't
>want your order."
>
> There is an old saying in business. If you don't take
>care of your customers, someone else will.
That's not really fair Ray. Otmar has been working
hard to bring an excellent controller that is light yrs
ahead of others including multinational companies!!
Would you want him to raise his prices so he can
build them faster? Will you pay for the increase if he
overbuilds? It's not easy to put such a device into
production at the quality, leading edge he does.
Maybe he isn't taking new orders because he is
trying to take care of those whom he has already committed
which is my guess? It's what I did when faced with the same
supply problems in my stero and boat businesses.
And E mail can take up all your time if you are not
careful, slowing the production even more so you have to cut
somewhere.
EV shops are quite small busineeses that are only
now starting to support people doing it.
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>The following is a quote from this page-
>http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/75.htm
>
>"Electric Vehicles does not carry the "Zilla" controllers.
>The company that claims to build these is run by a person
>that does not work with his Dealers and dose not supply
>product as advertized. Please see our New "EV USA"
>controllers to be released soon." ...
>
>
>
>
>Roy LeMeur
>
>My EV and RE Project Pages-
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
>Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low
>PC-to-Phone call rates.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Haha, here's an idea that might do the job:
What about having the armature and field not coordinated but
controlling them separately? You would have the accelerator pedal
controlling the Zilla as usual, and then a separate potentiometer for
the field, connected to a lever in the cabin ('gear selector'). You
start with the full field current ('1st gear'), depress the
accelerator and when you start gaining speed, you push the 'gear
selector' lever to 'higher gear' (smaller field current). Like having
a continuously variable manual gearbox...
The regen would be simple. When you want regen, just pull the field
lever towards 'smaller gear', i.e. higher field current. At some
point the motor voltage will exceed the battery voltage and start
pushing current into the battery. Some additional electronics is
probably needed, but maybe a diode backwards across the Zilla is enough?
Seppo
Steve Gaarder kirjoitti 2.8.2006 kello 20.48:
I have been wondering whether it might be possible to do a decent
job of controlling a SepEx by taking a standard series controller
like a Curtis or Zilla and adding a separate controller for the
field. The latter should not be too hard to custom-build if
needed, since the current would be relatively low. Coordinating
the two could be done with analog circuitry if the algorithm is
simple, or a single-board micro if you want to get fancy. The
simplest algorithm I can think of would be full field to start
with, and then as the pedal is pressed first increase the armature
voltage, then, after full armature voltage is reached, start
decreasing field. You'd need a safety circuit that would disable
the field weakening if armature current got too high (like on Elec-
traks).
Comments?
Steve Gaarder
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
duh .. thats like ten times out of the target price range.
Hard to believe that the hardware really costs so much. Im seeing
unwillingness to do business ..
http://www.uqm.com/about/FAQ.html#7
"6. I am converting my car into an electric or hybrid electric
vehicle. Can I buy one of your motors for my project?
No. We only sell motors and electronics to original equipment
manufacturers or their suppliers. "
Which is strange as UQM is a publicly traded company and according to
their financials they arent doing particularly well.
-kert
On 8/3/06, Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is a response a received from an inquiry a couple of weeks ago...
Hi Chet, thank you for contacting UQM. The PowerPhase systems are built to
order with typical lead-times of between 8-12 weeks depending on resource
and materials availability. The price range for the whole PowerPhase line
is between approximately 20k-40k depending on power output. Please feel
free to contact me with any further questions.
Thanks and Best Regards,
Andrew Roberts
Sales Engineer
UQM Technologies
(303) 215-3497
--- Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> By looking thgouh companies doing research subcontracts for FreedomCAR
> project i stumbled upon UQM technologies page.
> Seems that they are supplying complete EV drive systems in various power
> ranges:
> http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html#Vehicle
>
> Permanent magnet synchronous motors, modern inverters.Seems like nice
> package, the question is "how much?". Anyone care to request quotes on
> approximate price ranges on those ?
>
> -kert
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Soldering vs Spot welding
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:39:44 -0700 (PDT)
<snip>
Yes! Testing should (and has!) been done. By the
battery manufactures. The guys who tell you that you
need to spot weld tabs on the batteries and that
soldering will damage them.
<snip>
But most importantly, Have Fun!
- Steven Ciciora
My question is: if the batteries have to have tabs spot welded on them, why
aren't the batteries supplied from the factory with tabs already on them?
Other than this, these batteries are looking better all the time.
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My suggestion would be to bring the field and armature up together,
directly connect the armature, and then weaken the field. For
instance, on my motor (not installed yet, just played with it on the
garage floor), going full field with 100V would result in about 100
field Amps at zero rpm. It would be a shame to creep the car in heavy
traffic with 110 or so Amps when maybe 40 Amps or so would suffice.
The other way you could do it (with a stick shift or maybe with an
automatic) is to use a contactor to directly connect both the
armature and field. It'll jerk and do a brief surge of current, but
once at idle speed use very little power. My Kostov uses about 30
Amps @ 12 Volts idling (just 360 Watts). It would waste a little, but
not much, power to idle all the time. You'd have to slip the clutch
or depend on the automatic's slip to get going. You could lessen the
starting jerk by using a resistor, and then direct connect.
Final thought: If your charger does enough amps, you might be able to
use it to power the field.
--- Steve Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have been wondering whether it might be possible to do a decent
> job of
> controlling a SepEx by taking a standard series controller like a
> Curtis
> or Zilla and adding a separate controller for the field. The
> latter
> should not be too hard to custom-build if needed, since the current
> would
> be relatively low. Coordinating the two could be done with analog
> circuitry if the algorithm is simple, or a single-board micro if
> you want
> to get fancy. The simplest algorithm I can think of would be full
> field
> to start with, and then as the pedal is pressed first increase the
> armature voltage, then, after full armature voltage is reached,
> start
> decreasing field. You'd need a safety circuit that would disable
> the
> field weakening if armature current got too high (like on
> Elec-traks).
>
> Comments?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen cells come with and without tabs factory spot welded.
Mike
--- Dave Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> >From: Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Soldering vs Spot welding
> >Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:39:44 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> <snip>
> >
> >Yes! Testing should (and has!) been done. By the
> >battery manufactures. The guys who tell you that you
> >need to spot weld tabs on the batteries and that
> >soldering will damage them.
> >
> >
> <snip>
> >
> >But most importantly, Have Fun!
> >
> >- Steven Ciciora
> >
>
> My question is: if the batteries have to have tabs spot welded on
> them, why
> aren't the batteries supplied from the factory with tabs already on
> them?
> Other than this, these batteries are looking better all the time.
>
> Dave
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 72 volt NEV that has a metal diamond plate box on the rear. And
another application with eight 6 volt batteries The ACi's were mounted to a
piece of plywood with about 6 inches between them for air circulation,
because they generate so much heat. After having multiple failures and
replacements under warranty. Email from Soneil and ACI states that they do
not consider their chargers a good fit for use in EV's
See below
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Soneil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:32 AM
To: David Sherritze
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: 1214CC
Dear David:
1) 1214CC: You are correct that vibration is the problem. The 1214CC is a
consumer quality charger and we have concluded that it is not suitable for
on-board automobile application.
2) 1212SR: It cannot be used in your application of many batteries in series
(and one 1212SR connected to each battery). The reason is that the -ve of
this charger is connected to AC ground. So when you use many chargers with
many 12V batteries in series, all charger -ves are connected to AC ground.
So this will create battery short.
We do not have a charger for your demanding application. We will accept all
returns and will give you full refund. Please advise and we will give you
our "Return Material Authorization" (RMA) before returning. You need to
mark the chargers as "defective" or "good" and will go to our USA warehouse
at
Soneil International Ltd
c/o Fyke Trading USA Inc.
1000 Young Street
Suite 160
Tonawanda, NY - 14150
It is our opinion that you need chargers that are potted to withstand
vibration. We do not have such chargers.
Thanks & best regards - Bill M.
_________________________________
SONEIL INTERNATIONAL LIMITED
29 - 6033 SHAWSON DRIVE
MISSISSAUGA, ONTARIO
CANADA L5T 1H8
PHONE: + 1 905 565 0360
FAX: +1 905 565 0352
EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WEB: www.soneil.com
_________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sherritze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Soneil'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:35 PM
Subject: RE: 1214CC
> Of the ten - 1214 CC I have purchased, 6 more that have gone bad.
>
> I have a feeling it is related to heat and humidity in Florida. Vibration
> may also be an issue even though they come with mounting kits to
> permanently
> install.
>
> According to ACI, they have now changed their mind and told me that the
> 1214CC is not suited for mounting in a street vehicle as I was originally
> told.
>
> If you feel the 1212SR is a better replacement for this application,
> please
> let me know how to proceed as DX Engineering does not carry Soneil or the
> 1212SR.
>
> Thanks
>
> David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: ACI Superchargers / Soneil Battery Chargers
David,
I am also working with Soniel chargers, and although mine are the 3amp
versions, I may face the same issues when it comes time for day-to-day use.
Apparently there are two primary issues.....one being vibration and the
other being high temperature.
I am curious about your installation. Are your modules nested together, or
have you provided any means of cooling?
Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Electric Vehicles
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Sherritze
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: ACI Superchargers / Soneil Battery Chargers
I have had this ongoing ordeal of using ACI Superchargers Model 1214CC
as individual battery chargers for my EV. They are similar to DELTRAN
Power Chargers except they are 7amp constant rate smart chargers.
They are great chargers, when they work, but they have been failing
like crazy. I have 10 of them and have had 4 go bad in the past 6
months and 6 more go bad in the past week.
After working with ACI and their sister company Soneil, they have come
to the conclusion that the 1214CC cannot handle the vibration of being
mounted in an EV.
They are sending me an RMA for full refund of any of the units I wish
to return ( working or dead).
Now while it turns out that these chargers, are not a good choice for
this application, I would like to let the group know that ACI and
Soneil have been a pleasure to work with. As well as the dealer, DX
Engineering, who I bought the chargers through and has handled all of
the warranty exchanges.
Just feedback to the group
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:44 AM 3/08/06 -0400, David Roden wrote:
<snip> So let's stick with things we >can< agree on.
Thanks folks.
What, like AC vs DC ;^)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> duh .. thats like ten times out of the target price range.
> Hard to believe that the hardware really costs so much. Im seeing
> unwillingness to do business ..
> http://www.uqm.com/about/FAQ.html#7
>
> "6. I am converting my car into an electric or hybrid electric
> vehicle. Can I buy one of your motors for my project?
>
> No. We only sell motors and electronics to original equipment
> manufacturers or their suppliers. "
>
> Which is strange as UQM is a publicly traded company and according to
> their financials they arent doing particularly well.
>
The next line on entry 6 mentions getting their products through KTA
Services, but KTA's price list doesn't have any UQM listings.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The regen would be simple. When you want regen, just pull the field
> lever towards 'smaller gear', i.e. higher field current. At some
> point the motor voltage will exceed the battery voltage and start
> pushing current into the battery. Some additional electronics is
> probably needed, but maybe a diode backwards across the Zilla is enough?
>
>
...or use a rheostat with a big lever...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When my converted Rabbit (VoltsRabbit) first hit the road back in
1994, we had installed new stock (organic) pads on all four
corners. I went through those in a hurry on all the hills around
here. I don't think the front or rear (the rear's actually died
first - bad taper along the length of one of the shoes, so
perhaps an incorrect install) made it much more than 10K miles.
Also, I wasn't happy with the fact that the emergency brake (rear
brakes) could not stop the car on my steep hill down from the
apt; they could only keep it from going any faster.
So first change was installing a set of Porterfield carbon-kevlar
shoes in the rear. Wow!, what a difference. They're still there
and looking good at something like 20K miles later. Also, if I
give the emergency brake lever a good pull, the brakes will lock
up the rear wheels on the hill (probably hell on the tires...).
Somewhat later, the shop down the street discovered that I was
practically down to the rivets on the organic linings on the
front (disc brakes). I was checking only one side, the outside
that I could see through the wheel holes, but I think it was the
inside pads that were badly worn. The shop guys were really
hesitant about letting me back on the road with those pads, so I
had to punt (I wanted to put carbon-kevlars on the front too) and
go with upgrading to semi-metallic linings (the shop guys called
them "rotor eaters") and vented grooved rotors. Yep, big
difference here too! These things actually stop better the
warmer they get and can just about put the tail in the air. Cold
stopping ability is not overly great for the first instant or so,
and I still cannot lock the front tires up on dry surfaces (I
think that's going to require bigger rotors and wheels). They
have also lasted a lot longer than the organics, although I think
it is getting to be replacement time before much longer,
considering where the pads were last year compared to the year
before.
Given this set of experiences, anytime I talk with somebody about
brakes for their heavy EV conversion, I recommend getting away
from the stock organic crap and moving up to carbon-kevlar or
semi-metallics and maybe different rotors.
I have a question. Assuming my front pads are not getting down
to the wear indicators (noise), what is going on that causes a
horrendous ringing squeal when the car is braking at real slow
speeds (like going over a speed bump) or coming down to slow
speeds? I doubt this is a wear indicator noise, since the
semi-metallics did this for awhile when they were nearly new. It
usually happens at night, so I suspect that this is related to
humidity, and perhaps a very slight rusting of the surface of the
rotor(s) that causes the pads and calipers to vibrate. It seems
to come more from the passenger side. Are there anti-squeal
shims (maybe I lost one or it's getting loose), or is there a
spray to put on?
And another question (for the (VW) disc brake pros). My rotors
are significantly wider (at ~20mm) than the stock version. I
believe my calipers are Haynes-Kelsey. Before I dig into
replacing the pads (perhaps with carbon-kevlar, although it
doesn't look like Porterfield makes them anymore for VW Rabbits
(1980)), is it standard procedure to put a spacer in there to
allow the calipers to fit around the wider rotor, or what is
normally done? I don't see how they do it without putting a
spacer in for more width.
Thanks,
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mark E. Hanson" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: organic vs Metalic Brakes
> Metallic's need to be warmed up first. So if they are not used
> constantly they cool off and don't stop worth a damn. That's
why they
> came out with semi metallic's for the street.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark E. Hanson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > A mechanic friend stopped by last night and recommended
changing
> my shoes to semi-metalic or metalic brakes for shorter stopping
> distance in my Cushman but I've heard others on this list say
the
> standard shoes are better for stopping distance. Is there a
chart for
> brake material grabbiness or stopping distance? Any real world
tests
> been done?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mark
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so that's (the W) likely what's going on with my K2. Without
digging the instructions out, I recall the Italian-ese indicates
it's an IUI charger. But during the bulk charge, on the battery
side, depending on how discharged the pack is, it might start out
at about 11.0 to 11.1A, and slowly droop down to 10-something
amps before the roll-over begins on the second (U) stage. I have
also measured the current going up on the AC side of the charger
during that first phase, from something like 16A to 17A or a bit
more before the roll-over to the U stage.
Or maybe it's a poor-man's W, and is a wannabe constant-I
first-stage...
Thanks,
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:11 PM
Subject: RE: Zivan NG3 charger output voltage flexibility
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> > I
> > see that the above charger matches up with what's mentioned
in
> > the WUla column, model code F7 PH. I'm not certain what the
W
> > means,
>
> The 'W' means constant power, or taper operation during the
bulk phase,
> such that the charge current decreases as the battery voltage
rises.
>
> The 'U' describes a constant voltage phase (during which the
current
> will taper off)
>
> The 'I' describes a constant current finish phase.
>
> I suspect that if the NG3 can be reconfigured for a 96V pack,
it would,
> at a minimum, require a new EPROM.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have been trying to order a Zilla 2K for over a month and Otmar
has only replied once to my many emails, basically saying " I'm too
busy, don't bother me, I don't want your order."
>
> There is an old saying in business. If you don't take care of
your customers, someone else will.
>
There's another saying: "honesty is the best policy". Ot could have
accepted your money, knowing it may be many months before he can
fulfill your request, but knowing he has too many orders right now, he
told you the cold hard truth. The problem is, he makes the best DC
controller on the market, and everyone who knows it wants one. The
basic rules of micro-economics would have him raise the price
dramatically to balance out the demand - he could say "Look, I have to
raise my prices, so if you are willing to pay the difference, submit
the added funds; if not, sorry for the trouble and here's your
refund." What do you think, would double the current price slow the
demand too much? Probably not! After all, folks who want AC don't balk
at Victor's prices at metricmind.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if this is a duplicate. I never saw the one I sent last night
come across the list
Thanks Roger.
I'm glad to hear my thoughts were not off base.
If I may follow up. How thick and of what material should the plates be
made? I assume steel, but is there a specific alloy I need? (I now
nothing about metal working)
Is the tube you used for the crossmember and arms actually circular or
is it rectangular?
Currently I have the transmission in the truck and I did some
calculations that I believe put the center of the motor shaft at the
same height as the transmission input shaft. So I hope to be able to
fab the crossmember/arm combo so that motor ends up where it needs to
be.
Roland,
I have an Advanced DC and while I have not yet tested the fit of my
clamshell mount I'm told it will work fine.
On Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 12:50 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John wrote:
I had planned on fabricating two "plates" that would be bolted to the
engine mounts, then have short risers welded to the plates. Then a
horizontal "bar" spanning the distance between the risers. The clam
shell motor mount would then be bolted to the horizontal bar using
spacers to fine tune the motor position.
This is basically what I did for mine, and it is working great. I also
made the crossmember such that I could mount my motor controller on top
of it, which allowed keeping the controller-to-motor cables as short
and
neat as possible.
What I did was cut a pair of plates and bolted them to the stock
mounts,
then took a length of heavy wall steel tube about 1.5" in diameter and
cut a couple of notches in it to allow it to be bent into a sort of an
inverted 'U' shape. Then I cut and fitted it so the 'arms' had the
proper lengths and angle on their ends to mate flush with the mounting
plates. In my case, I had the motor installed to the tranny and
supported in the desired position by a floor jack while fabricating the
crossmember, which allowed getting the dimensions right.
If you carefully mark the alignment of the crossmember to the plates,
you should be able to take the 3 pieces to a weldor and have them put
together without bringing the whole vehicle as a jig. I think that in
my case, we tacked the corssmember to the plates while in the vehicle,
then removed them for the weldor to join them up securely.
Good luck,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm guessing 500wh/mile. So you need a 500 kwh pack. That's about 10
> times the size of a good sized pack. Whew. Even in litium that would
> be a huge pack.
>
> Mike
I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi between
fill-ups? I doubt a semi with both tanks full can go that far!
EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more than
most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it could go
100mi";
Then we say "here's a car that goes 100mi", and the public says "but
we might have to go farther, so we want to go as far as a tank of gas,
and be able to recharge in 5min";
As soon as we say "this car has a lithium pack and goes over 300mi,
and will charge in 4hrs", the public will say "we want to go all day
and never have to wait around for the car to charge unless we're
asleep", and they'll add "oh, and we want to do this going 80mph in a
truck with the aerodynamics of a brick".
We can blame the car companies for some things, but a public that
can't slow down but bitches about the price of gas (or commutes with
one or two people in trucks and SUVs instead of small cars because
"bigger is safer") just proves that an average IQ has as many people
below it as above it.
P.S.- My Ranger doesn't have a tonneau cover or underbelly treatment
and currently gets 3mi/kwh (from the mains), and the current pack
weighs >1600#, so using specs on the biggest Kokams
(3.7V/240Ah/5.0kg), that's 133kwh or about 400mi. Problem is the
"truck-like" suspension would kill you on a long drive!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm glad you pointed that out. I almost ordered something from them so now I'll
have to remember not to. I'd gladly wait 6 months for a Z1K and when I do I
know it'll be more than worth the wait.
----- Original Message ----
From: Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2006 1:09:21 PM
Subject: Zillas not available?
The following is a quote from this page-
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/75.htm
"Electric Vehicles does not carry the "Zilla" controllers. The company that
claims to build these is run by a person that does not work with his Dealers
and dose not supply product as advertized.
Please see our New "EV USA" controllers to be released soon."
...
Roy LeMeur
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
Do we really need a controller for the
armature? Why?
Could we just put in a resistor or 2 on go
pedal micro switch(s) for the armature for starting up at
full field, then once the armature is direct without
resistors, just vary the field down to increase speed with a
50-100 amp controller or rheostat? Assuming direct drive.
Or bring the armature up with a smaller
controller with full field, then switch to armature to B+
and control the field?
I'd think these would give much more power
at a much lower cost if they could work.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More on SepEx
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:00:40 -0700 (PDT)
>My suggestion would be to bring the field and armature up
>together, directly connect the armature, and then weaken
>the field. For instance, on my motor (not installed yet,
>just played with it on the garage floor), going full field
>with 100V would result in about 100 field Amps at zero rpm.
>It would be a shame to creep the car in heavy traffic with
>110 or so Amps when maybe 40 Amps or so would suffice.
>
>The other way you could do it (with a stick shift or maybe
>with an automatic) is to use a contactor to directly
>connect both the armature and field. It'll jerk and do a
>brief surge of current, but once at idle speed use very
>little power. My Kostov uses about 30 Amps @ 12 Volts
>idling (just 360 Watts). It would waste a little, but not
>much, power to idle all the time. You'd have to slip the
>clutch or depend on the automatic's slip to get going. You
>could lessen the starting jerk by using a resistor, and
>then direct connect.
>
>Final thought: If your charger does enough amps, you might
>be able to use it to power the field.
>
>--- Steve Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I have been wondering whether it might be possible to do
>> a decent job of
>> controlling a SepEx by taking a standard series
>> controller like a Curtis
>> or Zilla and adding a separate controller for the field.
>> The latter
>> should not be too hard to custom-build if needed, since
>> the current would
>> be relatively low. Coordinating the two could be done
>> with analog circuitry if the algorithm is simple, or a
>> single-board micro if you want
>> to get fancy. The simplest algorithm I can think of
>> would be full field
>> to start with, and then as the pedal is pressed first
>> increase the armature voltage, then, after full armature
>> voltage is reached, start
>> decreasing field. You'd need a safety circuit that would
>> disable the
>> field weakening if armature current got too high (like on
>> Elec-traks).
>>
>> Comments?
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
>around http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
