EV Digest 5719
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Article on the Tesla.
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tesla motor and controller
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Tesla motor and controller [OT]
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Article on the Tesla.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Drag on an electric motor
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Soldering vs Spot welding
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Drag on an electric motor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Drag on an electric motor
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Soldering vs Spot welding
by Hump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Soldering vs Spot welding
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Tesla motor and controller [OT]
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Drag on an electric motor
by Hump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EV's and Speed Limits WASRe: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV comments and Comparisons
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Zillas not available?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: ACI Superchargers / Soneil Battery Chargers
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) controlling A/C motor
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Drag on an electric motor
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: More on SepEx, and gears
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV's and Speed Limits WASRe: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range
EV
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Drag on an electric motor
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Soldering vs Spot welding
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I kinda like him. ;) Passionate if nothing else...
Seriously, he doesn't seem to be against corporations in general (although I
bet he is a
registered Democrat), he seems to be more against corporate privilege and how
most of the
biggest are so in bed with politicians rather than corporations in general. He
does say
that Tesla Motors, "...is different. They're an independent company."
He is definitely pissed off though... :D
--
joe (registered Libertarian :) vitek
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Swift [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 6:25 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re:Article on the Tesla.
>
> Boy the author is very left of center. He would be very happy in
> Joseph Stalin's world, no corporations, and you could do anything you
> want for the environment and the people, a real utopia. : )
>
> > From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: August 2, 2006 10:24:25 AM PDT
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Another take on the Tesla
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks
> >
> > Be aware that this author is definitely left of center.
> >
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/08/02/notes080206.DTL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Will we be seeing it in your Lectric Leopard any time soon ? 8)
-kert
On 8/3/06, Arthur W. Matteson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 14:31 +0300, Kaido Kert wrote:
> Its still the inverter topology thats the most interesting.
> Is it a traditional three-leg PWM, three-leg with dc-dc boost or
> something particularly new and effective called the "z-source" option.
> FreedomCAR project has done extensive research and evaluation on the
> three options, and it should be much more economical to build and also
> more efficient than the traditional topology.
> For a good overview of the research and prototyping results:
>
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2005_apeem_annual_report.pdf
> page 183, section 4.4, "Z-Source power converter"
>
> The (pure metal) price comparison turns $800 bucks for traditional
> topology, and $300 bucks for z-source, 55KW power output. thats a
> massive improvement
I'm actually building one now, for my Master's degree. It's quite
difficult to make all the interconnects, and there is a strange low-load
mode where the output voltage can go very high. This mode is actually
used for starting up fuel cells.
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope. I'm using a quadruple-boost topology for that. One Z-source
inverter is enough for this summer. I just got my CNC machine's axes to
work by motor control, so homebrew IGBT modules will be coming soon.
- Arthur
On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 19:07 +0300, Kaido Kert wrote:
> Will we be seeing it in your Lectric Leopard any time soon ? 8)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He's defnitely a great read.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I kinda like him. ;) Passionate if nothing else...
>
> Seriously, he doesn't seem to be against corporations in general
(although I bet he is a
> registered Democrat), he seems to be more against corporate
privilege and how most of the
> biggest are so in bed with politicians rather than corporations in
general. He does say
> that Tesla Motors, "...is different. They're an independent company."
>
> He is definitely pissed off though... :D
>
> --
> joe (registered Libertarian :) vitek
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Swift [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 6:25 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re:Article on the Tesla.
> >
> > Boy the author is very left of center. He would be very happy in
> > Joseph Stalin's world, no corporations, and you could do anything you
> > want for the environment and the people, a real utopia. : )
> >
> > > From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Date: August 2, 2006 10:24:25 AM PDT
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Another take on the Tesla
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Folks
> > >
> > > Be aware that this author is definitely left of center.
> > >
>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/08/02/notes080206.DTL
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I was not clear enough, and I beg forgivness. If you have the engine
running, and tow or otherwise move the vehicle with external force, the
transmission will have SOME of the engaging devices within it activate, as
opposed to free wheeling. The engine would, instead of simply ideling while
being towed, instead be forced to higher speed.
David C. Wilker Jr.
United States Air Force, Retired
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: Drag on an electric motor
Dave wrote:
If you have the engine running, the front pump in the
transmission will be pressurizing the system, and
engage all the bands and clutches, and the
engine will speed up to match the driveshaft speed.
This is certainly not true in general, though I don't know the
particulars of the specific tranny model used in the Avalanche. If all
the clutches and bands ever engaged at the same time the car would not
move ;^>
Most auto trannies I'm familiar with tend to have a sprag clutch as part
of 3rd gear (more modern trannies with additional gears may include the
sprag clutch for all gears higher than 1st and 2nd), this overrunning
clutch allows the vehicle to coast instead of exhibiting
engine/compression braking when the throttle is released at higher
speeds.
What you describe (tranny input & output shafts coupled/locked together)
will only be true if the particular vehicle exhibits compression braking
when the throttle is released and the vehicle is in gear.
Certainly, if the tranny is placed into neutral the input and output
shafts are completely uncoupled regardless of engine RPM (one can easily
verify this by noting that no matter how much they rev the engine, the
vehicle will not move while in neutral, and if the tranny is shifted to
neutral while the vehicle is moving, the engine RPM can be varied
without affecting the vehicle speed ;^)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure how many people here are figuring those who have soldered cells go
about doing this. For all my packs i have made myself for my R/C applications
and robotics i have used the soldering technique with no failures. I guess it
just comes down to the technique and experience of the individual. I also use
a high watt soldering iron, like the 750 watt model from sears. With this it
only takes about a second once i apply the iron to the cell and battery bar for
it to solder together. Usually i have the battery ends already lightly sanded
and a light amount of solder already on the cell.
But like I said, actions will speak louder than words in this case, and a trial
test will put all claims to rest. Once we have comparable data we'll know for
sure.
Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- john bart wrote:
> The only advantage i see to welding directly to the
> battery itself is its relatively cleaner and can
> handle higher heat environments without coming
> disconnected.
Oh, man. If the end of a lithium battery got so hot
that solder melted, the battery isn't any good
anymore, anyway.
> Maybe doing a test to see which method is better
> should be put into motion. Connect up 6 cells with
> the welding method and 6 cells with the soldering
> method and through some trial tests see where you
> attain better results. I think the results would
> speak better for themselves than arguing one way or
> another. later
>
Yes! Testing should (and has!) been done. By the
battery manufactures. The guys who tell you that you
need to spot weld tabs on the batteries and that
soldering will damage them.
Bill Dube' did some tests on some A123 cells. I don't
remember the exact numbers, but he found that a single
tab can handle about (lets say) 120 amps. Much above
this number (that I hope I'm remembering correctly),
the tabs turn color, heat up and damage the cell.
Spot weld two tabs (one on top of each other), and he
was able to draw much more current without overheating
(I'm not even going to guess what number of amps).
Our battle-bot team (www.botlabs.com) bought a few
nicd intercooled battlepacks
(http://www.battlepack.com/Cooledpack.asp) which have
soldered connections. A lot of these connections now
have a white frost on them, like what you get on
damaged nicds. It didn't matter if it was the oldest,
most used battle pack, or our little used spare that
we only used for fights. I'm sure the battlepack guys
have a lot more experience soldering cells than the
average hobbiest, but still (I believe) soldering
damages cells.
Call up the places where you send in your dead battery
pack (from a power tool, portable ham radio, whatever)
and they will rebuild it for you. They spot weld for
a reason. And it's not because they had too much
money laying around so they decided to spend it on a
spot welder.
When Bill Dube' was using Boulder cells, he didn't get
a reliable pack until he started using cells that had
copper braid spot welded to them. He's tried
soldering, pressure contacts, all sorts of things.
Based on the above experiences, there is no way I am
going to try to solder to cells that cost over $10
each. Everyone is free to try whatever method they
feel comfortable with, but I would just hate to see
someone repeat the same mistakes others have. That's
one of the main purposes of this list, to learn from
others. So if you try something, please report back
to the list so others can learn from your experiences.
But most importantly, Have Fun!
- Steven Ciciora
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> If you have the engine running, and tow or otherwise move the
> vehicle with external force, the transmission will have SOME
> of the engaging devices within it activate, as opposed to
> free wheeling. The engine would, instead of simply ideling
> while being towed, instead be forced to higher speed.
This may be true if the tranny is in gear, but will not be the case if
the tranny is in neutral. I believe the original poster was planning to
idle the ICE in neutral to run the accessories and keep the tranny lubed
while the electric motor provided traction power.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe the Avalanche has the 4L60E 4 speed automatic w/ locking converter
(may be the 4L70E). I have the 4L60E in one of my cars and it does have
compression braking when going down large hills even in 4th gear. I'm pretty
sure it unlocks the converter though, so you see reduced RPMs on the engine.
Typical operation of an automatic trans when in nuetral is that no power
will pass through it. A manual trans will usually pass a small bit of power
through when in nuetral though. This motion is passed through the gear oil,
so it is slight, but it is there.
Many 4wd vehicles these days do not like to be towed. Several can not
tollerate it at all. Thus the high percentage of flat bed tow trucks these
days. For many there is a lubrication issue. A t-case for example offten
times gets lubricated by the spinning of the input shaft. If the input is
not spinning, then there is no oil getting flung into the bearings, and
damage occurs. Confirm what you are getting into before you start. Other
vehicles will be damaged by towing only one end of the vehicle. (rear tires
on the ground front up in the air) This is a typical issue with AWD
vehicles. I'd imagine removing the t-case will cure these issues in most
vehicles.
-Wayne
On 8/3/06, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think I was not clear enough, and I beg forgivness. If you have the
engine
running, and tow or otherwise move the vehicle with external force, the
transmission will have SOME of the engaging devices within it activate, as
opposed to free wheeling. The engine would, instead of simply ideling
while
being towed, instead be forced to higher speed.
David C. Wilker Jr.
United States Air Force, Retired
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: Drag on an electric motor
> Dave wrote:
>
>> If you have the engine running, the front pump in the
>> transmission will be pressurizing the system, and
>> engage all the bands and clutches, and the
>> engine will speed up to match the driveshaft speed.
>
> This is certainly not true in general, though I don't know the
> particulars of the specific tranny model used in the Avalanche. If all
> the clutches and bands ever engaged at the same time the car would not
> move ;^>
>
> Most auto trannies I'm familiar with tend to have a sprag clutch as part
> of 3rd gear (more modern trannies with additional gears may include the
> sprag clutch for all gears higher than 1st and 2nd), this overrunning
> clutch allows the vehicle to coast instead of exhibiting
> engine/compression braking when the throttle is released at higher
> speeds.
>
> What you describe (tranny input & output shafts coupled/locked together)
> will only be true if the particular vehicle exhibits compression braking
> when the throttle is released and the vehicle is in gear.
>
> Certainly, if the tranny is placed into neutral the input and output
> shafts are completely uncoupled regardless of engine RPM (one can easily
> verify this by noting that no matter how much they rev the engine, the
> vehicle will not move while in neutral, and if the tranny is shifted to
> neutral while the vehicle is moving, the engine RPM can be varied
> without affecting the vehicle speed ;^)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm thinking maybe the quality of the connection isn't the issue.
If I needed to do 3000 or more cells... 6000+ tabs..... You can betcherass I
would choose the welder. Since I would want to be done before the cell's
shelf-life expired.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some may argue the complexity issue, but lets face it, ICE configurations
are well known and generally very reliable. I can rewire a modern EFI
system, but this is far tougher in my opinion. I have never had to deal
with electrically efficiency issues before.
-Wayne
The guts of an EV are ridiculously easy to wire. My friends think I
finished my EV only because I have a degree in electrical engineering, but
honestly the toughest part was figuring out how to fit all the batteries
in place.
EV wiring is very similar to the wiring of a flashlight. Batteries in
series, controlled by a switch, turning the light on. For safety reasons
there may be more than one switch, but it all goes in series. Reliability
is a question of picking parts that are properly rated for your
voltage/current. You CAN make it more difficult (parallel battery strings,
bypass contactors, reverse contactors) but you dont' HAVE to.
Battery-Battery-Fuse-Battery-Battery-Circuit Breaker-Contactor-Controller
Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I hope you and I are both right. But it could be the case the the Li
cells have a more delicate thermal connection than our R/C cells have
over their many years of refinement.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how many people here are figuring those who have
soldered cells go about doing this. For all my packs i have made
myself for my R/C applications and robotics i have used the soldering
technique with no failures. I guess it just comes down to the
technique and experience of the individual. I also use a high watt
soldering iron, like the 750 watt model from sears. With this it only
takes about a second once i apply the iron to the cell and battery bar
for it to solder together. Usually i have the battery ends already
lightly sanded and a light amount of solder already on the cell.
>
> But like I said, actions will speak louder than words in this case,
and a trial test will put all claims to rest. Once we have comparable
data we'll know for sure.
>
> Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- john bart wrote:
>
> > The only advantage i see to welding directly to the
> > battery itself is its relatively cleaner and can
> > handle higher heat environments without coming
> > disconnected.
>
> Oh, man. If the end of a lithium battery got so hot
> that solder melted, the battery isn't any good
> anymore, anyway.
>
>
>
> > Maybe doing a test to see which method is better
> > should be put into motion. Connect up 6 cells with
> > the welding method and 6 cells with the soldering
> > method and through some trial tests see where you
> > attain better results. I think the results would
> > speak better for themselves than arguing one way or
> > another. later
> >
>
> Yes! Testing should (and has!) been done. By the
> battery manufactures. The guys who tell you that you
> need to spot weld tabs on the batteries and that
> soldering will damage them.
>
> Bill Dube' did some tests on some A123 cells. I don't
> remember the exact numbers, but he found that a single
> tab can handle about (lets say) 120 amps. Much above
> this number (that I hope I'm remembering correctly),
> the tabs turn color, heat up and damage the cell.
> Spot weld two tabs (one on top of each other), and he
> was able to draw much more current without overheating
> (I'm not even going to guess what number of amps).
>
> Our battle-bot team (www.botlabs.com) bought a few
> nicd intercooled battlepacks
> (http://www.battlepack.com/Cooledpack.asp) which have
> soldered connections. A lot of these connections now
> have a white frost on them, like what you get on
> damaged nicds. It didn't matter if it was the oldest,
> most used battle pack, or our little used spare that
> we only used for fights. I'm sure the battlepack guys
> have a lot more experience soldering cells than the
> average hobbiest, but still (I believe) soldering
> damages cells.
>
> Call up the places where you send in your dead battery
> pack (from a power tool, portable ham radio, whatever)
> and they will rebuild it for you. They spot weld for
> a reason. And it's not because they had too much
> money laying around so they decided to spend it on a
> spot welder.
>
> When Bill Dube' was using Boulder cells, he didn't get
> a reliable pack until he started using cells that had
> copper braid spot welded to them. He's tried
> soldering, pressure contacts, all sorts of things.
>
> Based on the above experiences, there is no way I am
> going to try to solder to cells that cost over $10
> each. Everyone is free to try whatever method they
> feel comfortable with, but I would just hate to see
> someone repeat the same mistakes others have. That's
> one of the main purposes of this list, to learn from
> others. So if you try something, please report back
> to the list so others can learn from your experiences.
>
> But most importantly, Have Fun!
>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Glad to hear there is someone else looking to make their own IGBT
modules. My cnc is ready too, but I'm too buried in repairs to make it
happen right now. Got any particular IGBT's in mind?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Nope. I'm using a quadruple-boost topology for that. One Z-source
> inverter is enough for this summer. I just got my CNC machine's axes to
> work by motor control, so homebrew IGBT modules will be coming soon.
>
> - Arthur
>
>
> On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 19:07 +0300, Kaido Kert wrote:
> > Will we be seeing it in your Lectric Leopard any time soon ? 8)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It may not be due to transmission drag as much as modern computer controls.
But I can tell you for a fact that if I am going down the road and shift
into neutral in my 2001 Mercury Sable, the engine will stay right at the RPM
level it would normally be at for that speed.
In fact I'm pretty sure it is because ofthe computer...the engine seems to
"hunt for torque" it will rev up and down a 100rpm or so looking for the
spot that it is supposed to be at for that speed before settling on a point
and staying there.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
> Around here, 60 wouldn't even begin to keep up with traffic. 80 might....
>
> Yeah! For sure. I used to run the CT Turnpike to work, and go about the
65 MPH speed limit. I felt like a stone in a fast moving stream, as the 80
MPH crowd would flash by, EVen the trux, like Diseasel fuel was free!. Full
power I could just about keep up, at 70-75, but I was PAYING for it,
Ampmeter right in my face! Speed, not only kills, but is Costly, ampwise,
like 50 to 100 amps more to stay with the pack. Usually my ego wasn't that
needy to keep up, although if somebody farts, the traffic just stops or
creeps along at 50-75 amps. You start meassuiring traffic speed in amps when
ya drive an EV EVery day<g>! Towing the Rabbit with my trusty Rusty Ford
Van, I could creep along at 50-55mph in the rite lane and feel more OK about
being slow. After all, with " Electric Car" inscribed on the back, means ,
freely translated PASS ME! anyhow. Although I did get alota toot toot's and
thumbs up and waves, as gas prices went up an up! My 15 seconds of fame,
gees! Was it THAT long, written up in the local paper, New Haven
Register.May have been a factrer there? Or my WPKN Free Radio Earth Day
interview?When I get the Sentra going it will be interesting to see amy more
EV reaction, of late. Usually people around here are oblivious to things
along the road, like stop signs and speed limit stiff. Signs are merely
suggestions. Not legal anymore to talk on a hand held cell fone, but people
are still on the fone riding along. they aren't DRIVING , riding along. Cops
are right there, but look the other way. Is it time for the55 MPH
again?Sigh! Because they might enforce it for EV's too?Ha Ha! Like the 65
today?
My two MPH worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wayne,
I have max 50-60 mile range. I haven't gone over 50, but wasn't dead at 50
miles either. (I'll find out max the day I kill 'em; not on purupose)
My longest highway drive was down the turnpike from work (20 miles), and
back up a highway (15 miles) that night with no charge in between.
add on 15 miles non-highway stop and go
Setup:
EValbum 731
chevy S10 heavy
ADC 9" DCP 600
26 Trojan T-125 156 V
more range if double the batteries (like red beastie).
This same truck actually was a lead sled once of someone else who had 48 6
Volt batteries for 120 Volts and 100 miles range.
WOW!!!
Heavy too!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The following is a quote from this page-
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/75.htm
"Electric Vehicles does not carry the "Zilla" controllers. The company that
claims to build these is run by a person that does not work with his Dealers
and dose not supply product as advertized.
Please see our New "EV USA" controllers to be released soon."
...
Roy LeMeur
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
I am also working with Soniel chargers, and although mine are the 3amp
versions, I may face the same issues when it comes time for day-to-day use.
Apparently there are two primary issues.....one being vibration and the
other being high temperature.
I am curious about your installation. Are your modules nested together, or
have you provided any means of cooling?
Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Electric Vehicles
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Sherritze
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:47 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: ACI Superchargers / Soneil Battery Chargers
I have had this ongoing ordeal of using ACI Superchargers Model 1214CC
as individual battery chargers for my EV. They are similar to DELTRAN
Power Chargers except they are 7amp constant rate smart chargers.
They are great chargers, when they work, but they have been failing
like crazy. I have 10 of them and have had 4 go bad in the past 6
months and 6 more go bad in the past week.
After working with ACI and their sister company Soneil, they have come
to the conclusion that the 1214CC cannot handle the vibration of being
mounted in an EV.
They are sending me an RMA for full refund of any of the units I wish
to return ( working or dead).
Now while it turns out that these chargers, are not a good choice for
this application, I would like to let the group know that ACI and
Soneil have been a pleasure to work with. As well as the dealer, DX
Engineering, who I bought the chargers through and has handled all of
the warranty exchanges.
Just feedback to the group
David
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--- Begin Message ---
On 8/3/06, Adrian DeLeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Some may argue the complexity issue, but lets face it, ICE
configurations
> are well known and generally very reliable. I can rewire a modern EFI
> system, but this is far tougher in my opinion. I have never had to deal
> with electrically efficiency issues before.
> -Wayne
The guts of an EV are ridiculously easy to wire. My friends think I
finished my EV only because I have a degree in electrical engineering, but
honestly the toughest part was figuring out how to fit all the batteries
in place.
EV wiring is very similar to the wiring of a flashlight. Batteries in
series, controlled by a switch, turning the light on. For safety reasons
there may be more than one switch, but it all goes in series. Reliability
is a question of picking parts that are properly rated for your
voltage/current. You CAN make it more difficult (parallel battery strings,
bypass contactors, reverse contactors) but you dont' HAVE to.
Battery-Battery-Fuse-Battery-Battery-Circuit Breaker-Contactor-Controller
Adrian
I was speaking more to the issues of finding the right motor for the job,
then finding a controller for the motor, and then figuring out all of the
details of what battery pack to go with, and how to reduce losses at every
step of the process.
Like all design challenges there is an overwhelming amount of details that
need to be sifted through to get the right combination for the job.
I don't even know where to start. I tend to think the motor choice should
come first. And that is based on several basics. Am I running a
transmission? How much weight do I expect the vehicle to weigh? How many
volts/amps can I place into the vehicle? Etc. And some of those answers are
based on what the given motor will require.
That is the great challenge to me.
I'd like to learn a lot more before I jump in. I'm just a newbie, and I need
to learn how to swim in the shallow end of the pool, but I want to dive into
the deep end with all of the big kids.
-Wayne
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Victor,
how did/do you control the electric motor for the A/C ?
on/off contactor or something else?
I'm looking to control the Solectria Permanent Magnet A/C motor (approx.
144 or 156 VDC) without the original controller.
Thanks, Ben
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On 8/3/06, Hump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It may not be due to transmission drag as much as modern computer
controls.
But I can tell you for a fact that if I am going down the road and shift
into neutral in my 2001 Mercury Sable, the engine will stay right at the
RPM
level it would normally be at for that speed.
In fact I'm pretty sure it is because ofthe computer...the engine seems to
"hunt for torque" it will rev up and down a 100rpm or so looking for the
spot that it is supposed to be at for that speed before settling on a
point
and staying there.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I had a 97 Taurus and do not recall that activity at all, but don't think I
slipped it into nuetral that often.
I guess I could make some cracks about it being a Ford... In all honesty,
beware of that car. That trans is weak, and will cost a fortune when it
dies. Replace the tranny fluid and filter every 15,000 miles. I was happy
when I sold mine as it was killing me with little nightmarish repairs, and I
had the more reliable Duratech. Nice car otherwise.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: More on SepEx
> On 8/3/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > You sure can build single speed vehicle with SepEx or series
> > would motor for that matter as well. Size it (and controller)
> > large enough and on a tall gear it will cover your speed range.
> > In practice though, the torque is so giant in this case, that
> > in a normal tranny not meant to take such abuse, something
> > will likely break. Clutch slip, or if you don't have one,
> > strip a few teeth off the gear, not to mention wear of the
> > tranny shaft bearings due to abnormal side load.
>
> It sounds like you're taking an extreme case and applying it universally.
>
> The most numerous road going EVs in the world (PSA ones) all have
> sepex, all are single speed using a tiny custom gearbox and
> differential, and not once, ever, have I heard of a transmission
> problem.
>
Hi Evan an' EVerybody;
You're right on with this one! A well designed controller will, Sep Ex
or whatEVer, will apply power softly, to take any gear lash out before
delivering the torque we all know and love so well.This is one of Dennis
Berube's "secrets", or why he races and races,and races, not breaking stuff
so you don't have to<g>!Same on Electric Locomotives, you CAN'T throw all
the power on, the control setup won't let you! You used to be able with the
70 year old ones. Smokeshows were possable with the old GG-1's, roll back
and yank out on the throttle and do a 12 point(wheel) burnout, that woulda
turned J Wayland green with envey!Rings of fire on the wheels, Hot metal
smoke, getting yelled at by the Roundhouse foreman, especially when you set
the track on fire!Hot sparks, oily roadbed!Best show at night! Ah Memories!
Both the GG-1 and I are gone now! never broke one, but I'm sure if you drove
it like that EVery day, you woulda been in the shop alot?Same lokie could
turn 100MPH in 60 seconds, with one car, in it's time trials, yes they DID
do them, back in 1934 when being tested.That woulda blown away the Acela,
but Acela is a complete train, you can take 330 of your racing friends on
the time trials.And would pass the faithful old "G" at around 130 mph on
it's way to 150, or more if you took the electronic wraps off the
controls.Starting to get into TGV country, 180 MPH or so, only in France,
threy are light years ahead of US, anyhow.They hold the RR speed record with
a " Rodded" TGV at 312 MPH , not that silly KPH stuff the resta the World
likes.To do better than that ya gotta go for Maglevs, I'm afraid? Maglevs
are cool, the Chinese have a small one setup in Shang Hai? I think?But Mag
Levs are hidiously expensive to build, that trak HAS to be perfect. Not
1920's standard Amtrak, stuff! There was thought of doing Maglevs in FLA.
Perfect, Tabletop flat, go inland there isn't anybody there, anyhow. But
hitting an alegater at 300 MPH could be fun, but messy!It would need hy
power windshield wipers, too. RR's aren't a priority now, not with the Best
Govt. Oil; money can buy. But times are changin' now. Think 300 MPH trains
linking the USA together, as flying won't be for the masses at 10 bux a gal
for jet gas!We may hafta buy the frst ones from Alstom of France, already
perfected. Saves time.After all THEY have beenb doing trains, fast, for
years. The New Twentieth First Century limited, NY Chicago in 3
hours?Express, though.Philly, ya gotta take the Slocal<g>! Still.only 150
mph, like now.
OK back to EV's YOU can own.
Seeya
Bob go to" GG-1 .com" fun read, get into training
alittle!
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You do have to wonder why the speed limits seem to be ignored so much these
days. Why is enforcement so light? Here in So Cal speed limits on the
highways are typically 65 with some sections up at 75. 80 mph in the fast
lane on the 65 MPH sections is the norm when traffic will allow. Trailers
are supposed to stay at 55mph, but never do.
With all the belly aching about gas prices, and our use of foreign oil,
wouldn't you think that more people would clue in? Shouldn't the government
be interested in enforcing the speed limits? They would gain revenue and
improve fuel milage, right? Am I missing the big picture?
On 8/3/06, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
> Around here, 60 wouldn't even begin to keep up with traffic. 80
might....
>
> Yeah! For sure. I used to run the CT Turnpike to work, and go about
the
65 MPH speed limit. I felt like a stone in a fast moving stream, as the 80
MPH crowd would flash by, EVen the trux, like Diseasel fuel was free!.
Full
power I could just about keep up, at 70-75, but I was PAYING for it,
Ampmeter right in my face! Speed, not only kills, but is Costly, ampwise,
like 50 to 100 amps more to stay with the pack. Usually my ego wasn't that
needy to keep up, although if somebody farts, the traffic just stops or
creeps along at 50-75 amps. You start meassuiring traffic speed in amps
when
ya drive an EV EVery day<g>! Towing the Rabbit with my trusty Rusty Ford
Van, I could creep along at 50-55mph in the rite lane and feel more OK
about
being slow. After all, with " Electric Car" inscribed on the back, means ,
freely translated PASS ME! anyhow. Although I did get alota toot toot's
and
thumbs up and waves, as gas prices went up an up! My 15 seconds of fame,
gees! Was it THAT long, written up in the local paper, New Haven
Register.May have been a factrer there? Or my WPKN Free Radio Earth Day
interview?When I get the Sentra going it will be interesting to see amy
more
EV reaction, of late. Usually people around here are oblivious to things
along the road, like stop signs and speed limit stiff. Signs are merely
suggestions. Not legal anymore to talk on a hand held cell fone, but
people
are still on the fone riding along. they aren't DRIVING , riding along.
Cops
are right there, but look the other way. Is it time for the55 MPH
again?Sigh! Because they might enforce it for EV's too?Ha Ha! Like the 65
today?
My two MPH worth.
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: Drag on an electric motor
> Dave wrote:
>
> > If you have the engine running, and tow or otherwise move the
> > vehicle with external force, the transmission will have SOME
> > of the engaging devices within it activate, as opposed to
> > free wheeling. The engine would, instead of simply ideling
> > while being towed, instead be forced to higher speed.
>
> This may be true if the tranny is in gear, but will not be the case if
> the tranny is in neutral. I believe the original poster was planning to
> idle the ICE in neutral to run the accessories and keep the tranny lubed
> while the electric motor provided traction power.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
I destroyed my 65 Corvair electric conversion's tranny towing it in
neutral about a thousand miles. I shoulda just left the tranny in high gear,
let the motor just spin free, wasn't gunna tow it much faster than it would
go, with a 54 School bus camper!The tranny got it's lubinbg in gear. Wasn't
expecting to go THAT far with no " Engine" to turn the wheels. VW stuff,
Rabbits an Jettas can be towed in neutral as oil is being slopped around the
transaxle anyhow.Maybe I shoulsa towed the Rabbit in gear? Buyt never had
any tranny issues, EVen though I did tow it alot, flat towing.
My two tows worth.
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
Steven,
Did you ever retest the packs to see how many ah's they were still
good for? Since Steve at Battlepacks and I have soldered hundreds of
packs between us, I am not aware of damage taking place on NIMH or
NiCAD cells. At least the capacity and peak amperage were always still
at or over spec when we tested them. This may not have anything to do
with Li cells, but I have to believe that the Li cells are
structurally as sound as the seasoned Nimh or nicad cells.
I bet tack welding is vastly faster and better for your lungs too.
Mike
Team Rotordesign
Max Wedge
> Our battle-bot team (www.botlabs.com) bought a few
> nicd intercooled battlepacks
> (http://www.battlepack.com/Cooledpack.asp) which have
> soldered connections. A lot of these connections now
> have a white frost on them, like what you get on
> damaged nicds. It didn't matter if it was the oldest,
> most used battle pack, or our little used spare that
> we only used for fights. I'm sure the battlepack guys
> have a lot more experience soldering cells than the
> average hobbiest, but still (I believe) soldering
> damages cells.
>
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Let's just do a quick "proof of concept" on paper just to show it can
be done(for the fun of it!).
Let's also use a ludicrous vehicle and power plant to further the
point that it can be done.
2006 Ford F-150, Zilla 2K, and a 13" WarP motor and use the 5 speed
manual trans.
I know the big Lithium pack will fit in the bed(or anywhere else).
The question is, how big of a pack in kWh? Pick any existing off the
shelf battery. How many do we need to ge the range?
Let's not talk about price because our price at our volumes is not the
same price as Ford's or GM's.
1000 mile range EV's would change everything. Drive it on the highway
all day long, recharge it while you sleep and drive it all day long
again. That should put an end to the range issue.
--- End Message ---
