EV Digest 5723
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Voltage Measurement Circuit for Basic Stamp2
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV. AND Satisfaction Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Auto-Locking Hubs (was: Re: Drag on an electric motor)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Sentra Stuff.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) A Look at the Wayland Invitational II 7/29/06 [part one]
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: organic vs Metalic Brakes
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Converting 2wd to 4wd (was RE: Drag on an electric motor)
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: More Direct Drive Discussion
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: More Direct Drive Discussion
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Auto-Locking Hubs (was: Re: Drag on an electric motor)
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Zillas not available?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) reg installations
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) A Few Good Questions
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: More Direct Drive Discussion - Siamese middle bearing
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Schott Power?
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV Grin!!!!!!!!
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) This list and spammers - Also EV forums?
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: reg installations
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>> I'm guessing 500wh/mile. So you need a 500 kwh pack. That's about 10
>> times the size of a good sized pack. Whew. Even in litium that would
>> be a huge pack.
>>
>> Mike
>
> I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi between
> fill-ups? I doubt a semi with both tanks full can go that far!
Well...perhaps not man. I think their are some VW TDI cars that come
close. And of course an F250 or other diesel pickup with an auxiliary
tank could do it. Mine gets over 500 miles on just the stock 30 gallon
tank.
To be sure a 1000 mile range is pretty rediculous. Very few people ever
drive more than 500-700 miles in a single day.
Personally I think 200-300 miles range with rapid charging would be more
than enough for the vast majority of folks.
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've build very linear DC isolator without primary
> side
> power source. Only issue it does not work
> below LED threshold voltage (~1.3V or so) and
> require calibration. Still, quote trivial circuit.
>
Are you going to describe it? I always like seeing
other people's approach to things...
> But I hear you. Normally the primary power is taken
> from the object being measured, in this case - the
> battery.
> So not a problem really.
Not a problem, only if you have large Ah batteries!
> Victor
- Steve
> Steven Ciciora wrote:
<snip>
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:18 AM
Subject: RE: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
> If you want to do an EV conversion to save money, forget it. Payback
period
> is too long.
>
> But money is only a personal issue.
>
> But what about the other considerations? What about reducing your
personal
> pollution and your personal impact on the environment? How about helping
> your country to become less dependant on oil and foreign suppliers?
>
> Don
> Hi Don an' EVerybody;
Well said! And what about the personal satisfaction of driving your
ride that YOU had a part of building? When somebody else sees ya driving
electric, making a point. It CAN be done. To quote one of the ads ya see on
TV, now an again.
Cost of donar car 3k
Cost of Motor 1700 bux
Cost of Controller 2200 bux
Cost of Batteries 1500 bux
EV Grin..an' Satisfaction Priceless!
Hell !Cheaper hobby than boating, drinking or Smoking! Renting
or eating<g>!
My two watts worth
Seeya at Woodburn (PIR) Where you can take a trolley to the
track! No kiddin'!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich wrote:
I too would like to know why the acceleration "SUCKS" using a 9 inch
motor. I hope all will respond to this email...
Rich in Va
In ICE terms, you have a V-8 engine and somebody put a 1 barrel
carburetor on it. The Curtis controller is simply not up to the task
of getting that heavy an EV moving in an adequate fashion. It would
probably be really peppy in something under 2000 pounds curb weight,
but that truck is probably almost twice that.
You need more motor amps. Something like 1000 would be a good
target. A used Auburn Kodiak would get you 680, a Raptor or T-Rex
1000 to 1200, and of course there are always the Zillas. The Zilla
would be my choice, but my budget has me running a Kodiak.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> I too would like to know why the acceleration "SUCKS" using a 9 inch
>>motor.
>> I hope all will respond to this email...
>> Rich in Va
> Ok heres's one; He needs a Zilla to get all the power he paid for.
>Curti and 9 inch motors don't play well together, anyhow.
> Bob
When I moved my 85 S-10 Blazer from a Curtis to a DCP Raptor 600 it was like
driving an entirely new and much improved truck from just off charge to coming
up that hill to my house at the end of the day. I changed absolutely nothing
else about it. Actually now that I think about it the curtis gave up it's ghost
after coming up a long hill which and when I got the raptor I was really
depressed that I had waited soooo long.
I'm thinking of doing similar for my S-15 and with the Zillas tons of features
I am pretty sure I can limit the battery amps so it doesn't eat my batteries
for lunch. It would probably be a waste for just that but when I get my Freedom
EV I can put the zilla in there :-)
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> If you are using a FWD setup with the Electric motor
> connected to the front hubs and they are Auto Locking
> hubs, won't they unlock when the wheels spin faster
> than the motor?
I don't believe this is how they work, otherwise you would drop back
into 2WD whenever you try to move in reverse. ;^>
>From <http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf60414.htm>:
"With automatic hubs, there is no need to stop or get out of the
vehicle. The spring-loaded hub automatically engages on the fly when the
transfer case is shifted from 2WD into 4WD. The application of torque to
the axle causes the mechanism inside the hub to slide in and lock. This
is a much more convenient setup for occasional off-roading or when road
conditions are rapidly changing.
Automatic hubs should remain in the locked position as long as the
transfer case is in 4WD, even if the vehicle is being driven in reverse
or coasting down hill. But some automatic hubs have to be manually
locked to prevent slipping when engine braking is being used on a
downgrade. Most automatic hubs will only unlock when the transfer case
is shifted back to 2WD. Some types of hubs also require the vehicle to
come to a halt and be backed up about six feet before they will
disengage. As long as the transfer case remains in the 2WD mode, the
front wheels are undriven. When shifted into 4WD, the unlocked hub
automatically slides into position and locks the axle so both front
wheels become drive wheels.
Some hubs use engine vacuum to engage the front hubs. It is critical to
look for possible vacuum leaks at the hubs. In some cases, like KIA
Sportage models, leaking seals at the hubs can cause the engine vacuum
to suck in contaminates into the wheels bearings. Also, vacuum lines may
leak or become blocked. Some aftermarket suppliers offer a kit that can
replace failure prone OEM vacuum and electric front axle engagement
systems. The cable system works like hubs with full control from inside
the cab without stopping and reduces front differential wear and right
axle breakage. For serious off-roaders, the kit has the advantage of not
disengaging when ignition is turned off or the differential is
submerged."
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yes that is it ! it was from memory thanks for the link
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
> Indeed, i found that they are actually marketing the 15-min system
> over here for RC folks
> http://www.a123racing.com/html/soniccharge.html
>
> -kert
>
> On 8/4/06, Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > RC models folks charge them 15 minutes not less.
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 8:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
> >
> >
> > > Has anyone actually seen the A123 batteries being charged in the five
> > minutes ?
> > > Is the five-minute charge even really possible ? From what i gather,
> > > their chargers in deWalt powertools are using one-hour charger.
> > >
> > > For a EV-sized pack you will obviously hit serious amp limits.
> > >
> > > BTW, wasnt it reported that Tesla pack is built as sort of "RAID array
> > > of batteries" so you can slide out individual sheets and replace them
> > > one by one ? With some sweat, you could theoretically change the
> > > entire pack in a few minutes, if its true.
> > >
> > > -kert
> > >
> > > On 8/4/06, Adrian DeLeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Let's just do a quick "proof of concept" on paper just to show it
can
> > > > > be done(for the fun of it!).
> > > >
> > > > Assuming:
> > > >
> > > > 1) 500WH/mile
> > > > 2) A 6000 pound, 500KWHr pack of Kokams...
> > > >
> > > > The first 1000 miles is easy, but then you need a week to recharge.
A 12
> > > > hour recharge would require a 220V, 190A charger! Can you say
> > neighborhood
> > > > brown-out? A PFC-20 could get you going again in just over 4 days.
> > > >
> > > > Portable nukes anyone?
> > > >
> > > > Let's look at replacing the 1600 pound lead-acid pack in a small
pickup
> > > > with Li batteries:
> > > >
> > > > 1) 300wh/mile
> > > > 2) 5KW charger (23A at 220V - slightly better than a PFC20)
> > > > 3) 12 hour recharge time
> > > >
> > > > That means a 740 pound, 60KWH battery pack with a 200 mile range.
> > Upgrade
> > > > to a PFC-50 charger and you can top off a 1600 pound, 130KWH pack in
the
> > > > same 12 hours for a 430 mile range.
> > > >
> > > > It looks like charging is the main obstacle here. A 5KW charger
gives
> > just
> > > > under 17 miles/hour (of charging). At 10KW (think PFC-50!) it's 34
> > > > miles/hour. Compare that to a 5 minute ICE fillup that nets 300
miles
> > > > (3600 miles/hour of fueling), the equivalent of a 1MW charger.
> > > >
> > > > If you can afford the 1MW charger you can probably affort the 130KWH
Li
> > > > pack, but I don't think it would be happy charging for 5 minutes at
> > 4000A.
> > > > A 1 hour quick charge would still be over 400A with a 300V pack. I
can
> > > > hear it now: "Your EV only goes 400 miles and you have to wait an
HOUR
> > to
> > > > recharge?!?!"
> > > >
> > > > Swapping packs at the "charge station" would be much easier, but
you'd
> > > > have to have standardized packs, quality control (don't want that
pack
> > > > Wayland used on the track last year!), etc...
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob wrote:
> !. How high will the charged bat. pack go? About 110
> volts fully charged?
I have to think you're just testing us, Bob: you've got as much
experience as anyone charging floodies and must be doing something right
given the mileage you got from them in your Rabbit, even though you
certainly didn't baby them! ;^>
Around 110V (2.45V/cell) would be a decent absorption voltage level, but
if you finish them up with a low constant current charge to put in the
required overcharge, the voltage could peak as high as 2.7V/cell
(121.5V), though peaking in the 2.5-2.6V/cell (112.5-117V) range is more
common.
> Other loose end: A DC to dc converter? Any ideas for a 90
> volt in 13 or so out. Hate going back to a separate charger
> and long periods of electrical twilite with out a DC to dc. I
> haven't followed the DC to dc thread, of late. Iota? Sevcon?
Surepower makes a nice unit, which is available from Canadian Eelectric
Vehicles:
<http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/Components/Converter.html>
Surepower is in Portland, so if you can wait that long, maybe you can
pick up your DC/DC while out for the races? I suspect CANEV could get
you one PDQ, but I don't know if there might be someone nearer to you
that carries the Surepower product.
The Curtis 1400/1410 330W DC/DC (on the same page) is another
possibility. Despite what Curtis says, a 96V pack is too much for this
unit as its fully charged voltage can exceed the DC/DC's maximum input
rating (which is only 115% of nominal, or 110.4V, which is just
2.30V/cell on a 96V pack). Your 90V pack almost squeeks inside its
capabilities (110.4V -> 2.45V/cell for a 90V pack), but you would have
to disconnect the DC/DC during charge to protect it from seeing the peak
voltages near the end of charge.
The nice thing about either of these units is that they are sealed and
intended to be used on a vehicle.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
It has been a long time since I was awake for 24 hours straight. But it was
a fun and enjoyable 24 hours that was well worth it.
FT (Don "Father Time" Crabtree) picked me up in Olympia about 9am Saturday,
and we arrived back in Olympia around 5am Sunday.
As FT and I are entering Oregon on Saturday morning, we give Plasma Boy a
call. His breakfast party, including David Brill from SBS TV Australia, have
just arrived at the traditional breakfast location and he says "we will
order your breakfast, you will be here in about 7 minutes" and that is about
how long it took to get there.
As we arrive, John is in high gear and providing well-animated material for
Mr. Brill's camera. We had a great breakfast with many of us giving short
bites to the camera.
After breakfast, FT and I go three or four miles south to get an additional
EV to bring to the track/display for the cameras (Special thanks to Travis
Raybold for providing the use of his '82 Fiat Spider EV to bring to the
track for the cameras.) {Shameless plug- This well-done EV conversion is for
sale, Only $10K - 8" ADC - Raptor 600 - PFC-30}. I drive the Fiat to the
Wayland Juice Bar with FT following.
Upon arrival I place the Fiat at the end of the line of EVs filling the
Wayland driveway and hook up the charger. this makes five EVs charging in
the drive, including the White Zombie, Blue Meanie, Otmar's Porsche 914
California Poppy, Marko's '68 Datsun Pickup, and the Fiat.
In the house, John, Roderick, and David Brill are reviewing David's
interview with Dave Barthmus, GM's spokesperson assigned to fend off the
claims made in WKTEC. The interview was uncut and recorded the previous day
when David was in Los Angeles with Mr. Barthmus.
After just a few minutes of watching this interview I offer to find us some
barf bags :^D
In a trailer on the street, Rich Rudman is constructing the new Manzanita
Micro breaker box with four 240V 50A outlets and 4/0 cable as feeds. Rich is
definitely in his element as he is pontificating profusely on the subject of
safety during charging to all within earshot. I start to fabricate the
required NEDRA safety devices in order to run the Fiat at the track.
David Brill spends a few minutes each with many of us getting some on camera
interviews [except for JW, who gets more like an hour :^D], David gets some
shots of the five vehicles charging in the drive and all the other activity.
Roderick gets out his kustom chopper board scooter (including hidden Etek,
Alltrax, and 48V of Hawkers, with saddlebags, ape hangers, and a way low
saddle) and lets some of the newbies take it for a ride. This scooter gets
to about 50mph quite rapidly, your butt being about 12" off the ground
amplifies the effect. The scooter brings on many first-time EV grins during
this process. Only a few dare to kick the throttle wide-open when launching.
Lots of fun to watch :^D
Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich from Winner's Automotive show up with the FT
built red bike and green bike. Battery testing/cycling/charging continues.
Roderick and I decide to go to the local Quickie-Mart on the two Currie
board scooters he has brought while the chopper scooter is recharging, about
a 25 block roundtrip. We circle through various garage sales along the way
as we go continuously generating interest in electric transportation.
About the time we arrive at the Quickie-Mart, Rod's scooter is discharged
and barely moving. We buy the stuff we came for and consider options. My
scooter is still strong and we decide to extend a cable-type bike lock from
the back of my scooter, and have Rod hold it over the center of the
handlebars on his scooter while being towed. As unsafe as this may sound, it
actually works, and we arrive back at the Wayland's with no road rash.
Everyone continues to ready things to go to the track, we have about eight
or nine vehicles, some with trailers/cars on the hook, all trying to go at
the same time. John is bringing his lift repair truck/mobile workshop, I
have the Fiat hooked to the back of John's Jeep Cherokee. We finally get all
the wagons moving and head on down the trail.
We all arrive at the track 15 or so miles later more or less together.
It is about 6:30pm when we get there and the line to get in is really long
and slow moving. It is a maximum attendance night for drag racing, the track
will be packed. Gary Grauke is already in line driving his Honda Insight EV
with Siemens AC drive.
Dave Cloud is also there with his multi-motored [make that 10 motors] Geo
Metro.
Slowly but surely we trickle into the track...
END OF PART ONE<
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Race Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes and now we will clearly see the real limitation of EV, not range but
time charge and so on power required !
to resume:
We need charging infrastructures.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Ciciora" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
> If you go to this link:
>
> http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/power.html
>
> on the right there is a graph (click on it to make it
> bigger). I'll re-type the caption:
>
> "A123 batteries can safely charge to very high
> capacity in less than 5 minutes with low temperature
> rise and no cell damage. This chart shows the
> temperature (orange curve) of a cell as it charges at
> different rates between 2C (30 minutes) and 20C (3
> minutes) and discharges at 10C (6 minutes) after each
> charge."
>
> The graph show temperature ranging between 25 deg. C
> and 40 deg. C. There is a voltage plot, I roughly
> estimate it shows it between about 2.8V and 3.8ish V.
>
>
> I don't know the details of the test involved (was
> there any cooling? Ambient air temperature? Where and
> how did they measure temperature?) but the curves seem
> to back up the claim.
>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
> --- Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone actually seen the A123 batteries being
> > charged in the five minutes ?
> > Is the five-minute charge even really possible ?
> > From what i gather,
> > their chargers in deWalt powertools are using
> > one-hour charger.
> >
> > For a EV-sized pack you will obviously hit serious
> > amp limits.
> >
> > BTW, wasnt it reported that Tesla pack is built as
> > sort of "RAID array
> > of batteries" so you can slide out individual sheets
> > and replace them
> > one by one ? With some sweat, you could
> > theoretically change the
> > entire pack in a few minutes, if its true.
> >
> > -kert
>
> (snip)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another data point: I have kevlar pads on my heavy car. After 70k
miles I can't tell that they have worn, plenty of lining left. They
seem to be treating the rotors nicely. My first autocross run on them
they stunk badly, but not since. The downside is I cannot lock up the
wheels on dry pavement (antilocks are not kicking in even, and it is
obvious when they work on snow) -- so I don't think they stop the car
as fast as other pads.
--- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> So first change was installing a set of Porterfield carbon-kevlar
> shoes in the rear. Wow!, what a difference. They're still there
> and looking good at something like 20K miles later. Also, if I
> give the emergency brake lever a good pull, the brakes will lock
> up the rear wheels on the hill (probably hell on the tires...).
>
> Somewhat later, the shop down the street discovered that I was
> practically down to the rivets on the organic linings on the
> front (disc brakes). I was checking only one side, the outside
> that I could see through the wheel holes, but I think it was the
> inside pads that were badly worn. The shop guys were really
> hesitant about letting me back on the road with those pads, so I
> had to punt (I wanted to put carbon-kevlars on the front too) and
> go with upgrading to semi-metallic linings (the shop guys called
> them "rotor eaters") and vented grooved rotors. Yep, big
> difference here too! These things actually stop better the
> warmer they get and can just about put the tail in the air. Cold
> stopping ability is not overly great for the first instant or so,
> and I still cannot lock the front tires up on dry surfaces (I
> think that's going to require bigger rotors and wheels). They
> have also lasted a lot longer than the organics, although I think
> it is getting to be replacement time before much longer,
> considering where the pads were last year compared to the year
> before. ...
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I generally recommend to anyone that wants to convert a stock 2wd to a stock
4wd to simply sell the 2wd and buy the 4wd. A lot less pain, and less
expense too.
It is not uncommon for the vehicles body tub to be different between the 2
models. They usually have a different floor pan welded in. For example, Geo
Trackers have at least 2 different floor pans depending on what version of
the 2 door model you have.
-Wayne
On 8/4/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm not sure if David has mentioned this on the list yet or not, but he is
also looking to convert his 2wd Avalanche to 4wd for this conversion.
Can someone more familiar with this vehicle comment on the parts needed
for this conversion?
I'm thinking he will need to replace most of the front end of the vehicle
(suspension, hubs, brakes, etc.) and possibly have to do some modification
to the frame.
> Thank you for the reply and I am not sure the drag on the existing drive
> train would be a problem. True one should not tow the Avalanche but it
is
> because of lubrication in the transmission. I was planning to idle the
> motor to power the brakes, steering and AC. The idling motor would also
> spin the transmission so it should be lubricated.
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found a picture a while back of the Hub motors that GM made back in the
early 90s. These were planned to be used as a power add on like a turbo. It
was reported that GM had some issues back then with getting the motors to
work in harmony together. (2 hub motors on the back axle of an S-10)
Mitsubishi has hub motors in testing now. I have also seen a picture of
these and it appears they may use a plantary reduction built into the unit.
The total unit appears to be about the size of 2 drum brakes. They have them
installed in a test vehcile (Mirage I think?) and are expecting to release
an EV based on these motors in 2 years. That same article also mentioned
they were working on a larger version of the hub motor and planned to use
four of them in a four wheel drive SUV.
I'm very much looking forward to seeing what Mitsubishi can pull off. This
is all based on them not scarpping the whole thing as part of the economic
woes.
-Wayne
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--- Begin Message ---
"Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In my opinion I still feel the way to go on an electric vehicle is with
direct drive. We have already seen the performance advantages with John and
Matt's
cars. The EV1 was also designed as direct drive. Eliminates more components
that require maintenance; transmission, clutch, etc.
Jim Husted or others;
What kind of crazy motor designs would be applicable to a direct drive
vehicle.
Are Siamese setup's the way to go?
Does 3 smaller motors coupled together offer any advantages?
Any easy way to have a motor at each wheel and eliminate the rear end?
Any others?
Hey Dennis, all
I don't know if I'd call the Siamese setup "the" way to go, but it's
performance is pretty hard to dispute. It's been a year now that Waylands been
hammering that motor and she just keeps ticking like a good 'ol Timex. Now for
EVery race we hear about there are probably 10 to 12 additional hammerings
between. I have no idea how many times Tim pounded the peddle on the Joliet
trip (it does seem the Hooter girls got some extra pounding, lmao).
Needless to say I'm pretty proud of my role in developing it. The biggest
assets if concidering it are the weight reduction, shorter length, and a
tougher shaft. Having dual comm's to share the current as opposed to a single
larger motor is also a big plus. I can't remember what John's efficiancy is but
I'd bet it's as good or better than most, so I believe lets say even a dual 7"
might be very awesome for daily's.
Now having a clutch is a nice safety devise and I've heard that argument
posted numerous times so to error on the side of caution buy a Zilla, lol!
Actually in 25 years I've never once heard of a controller failing "on" in a
forklift, but they do run much lower voltages. I really try to "not" get
involved in the flame wars of oppinion. It is my belief that EVeryone has
different needs. What I do for Rod and GP's motor is not whats needed for John
and WZ's for example. Finding the right motor for the load is 90% of the
battle. What's right for you, only you know, in fact not one of my motors have
been duplicates. They might share basic techniques like heavier leads, etc.,
but are really dictated by the customers wishes. If I can be honest it really
works like this... Hey can you do "this", sure I say! and then scratch my head
like a monkey for a couple of weeks, lmao, hehehe!
As far as Siamese motors go there are a couple of things I'd like to make
more user-friendly like not having to press an armature off to change the
middle bearing. Keith and I have already discussed this and believe we have a
good solution, but have not tried it yet. What I need to do is get the capital
to buy 10 motors and work up a 5 batch which would reduce costs to make by a
lot. Untill then John owns the only unicorn in the valley but I still love to
watch it run 8^ ) BTW let me know if you have 4 fiends with your same DD
views, lmao, hehe.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Unicorn builder 8^ P
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Automatic hubs are worhtless. They are unreliable and only look good on the
list of features.
You never know for sure when they are going to lock or unlock. A common
issue is when you back up when you can not go forward so you back up to try
a different line. The hubs will unlock and not re-lock until the tire rolls
some, but you need 4wd to back up. You are now totally stuck in 2wd. Have a
nice day.
On 8/4/06, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> If you are using a FWD setup with the Electric motor
> connected to the front hubs and they are Auto Locking
> hubs, won't they unlock when the wheels spin faster
> than the motor?
I don't believe this is how they work, otherwise you would drop back
into 2WD whenever you try to move in reverse. ;^>
>From <http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf60414.htm>:
"With automatic hubs, there is no need to stop or get out of the
vehicle. The spring-loaded hub automatically engages on the fly when the
transfer case is shifted from 2WD into 4WD. The application of torque to
the axle causes the mechanism inside the hub to slide in and lock. This
is a much more convenient setup for occasional off-roading or when road
conditions are rapidly changing.
Automatic hubs should remain in the locked position as long as the
transfer case is in 4WD, even if the vehicle is being driven in reverse
or coasting down hill. But some automatic hubs have to be manually
locked to prevent slipping when engine braking is being used on a
downgrade. Most automatic hubs will only unlock when the transfer case
is shifted back to 2WD. Some types of hubs also require the vehicle to
come to a halt and be backed up about six feet before they will
disengage. As long as the transfer case remains in the 2WD mode, the
front wheels are undriven. When shifted into 4WD, the unlocked hub
automatically slides into position and locks the axle so both front
wheels become drive wheels.
Some hubs use engine vacuum to engage the front hubs. It is critical to
look for possible vacuum leaks at the hubs. In some cases, like KIA
Sportage models, leaking seals at the hubs can cause the engine vacuum
to suck in contaminates into the wheels bearings. Also, vacuum lines may
leak or become blocked. Some aftermarket suppliers offer a kit that can
replace failure prone OEM vacuum and electric front axle engagement
systems. The cable system works like hubs with full control from inside
the cab without stopping and reduces front differential wear and right
axle breakage. For serious off-roaders, the kit has the advantage of not
disengaging when ignition is turned off or the differential is
submerged."
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have never ordered anything from Cloud Electric, so I don't know much
about them.
If you can, could you elaborate on the "integrity and performance" that
Cloud Electric lacked?
Just curious...
Ken
First of all, let us not confuse Dave Cloud with Steve Cloud (a common
mistake).
Steve Cloud is Cloud Electric, not Dave.
Cloud Electric was sold to an investor in SC earlier this year and re-named
"Electric Vehicles USA".
Apparently Steve Cloud is still there working with the new company, this
page concerning the Zilla has his name written all over it.
At some point, "Electric Vehicles USA" will get a clue as to what kind of
person Steve Cloud is.
In the meantime, deal with this company at your own risk.
I would be happy to provide more info to those interested off-list.
...
Roy LeMeur
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm planning my reg installation, and would love to hear recommendations and
see some pictures of how others have done theirs. Should I look for
enclosures, some kind of plastic box to keep them dry? Or will they heat up
too much if I do that? How do others keep them cool while keeping them dry,
too?
I do remember the post regarding not placing them directly on a battery, as
they get too hot.
Thanks in advance!
David Brandt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK... So.. WHO is welding these Tabs on these A123 Li-Ion Cells
Im sure the folks at Tesla, didn't do them all them Selves.? Or Did
they. Wasn't any one there at the Opening, that could have asked that
question ?
Second: Lets all keep our eyes and ears open for Chris Paine's
Interview on the Jay Lennow Show. Im sure they have been working on
that. Would like to Know about it at least 24 hours in advance.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>like not having to press an armature off to
>change the middle bearing. Keith and I have already
>discussed this and
>believe we have a good solution, but have not tried
it >yet.
Can you elaborate on this idea?
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I was looking to contact someone at Schott Power for inverters and fast
chargers and can't find their website or contact info anymore. Does someone
know who assimilated them? What their new name is?
Thanks,
Mark
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lots of A123 battery charge/discharge graphs and data in different
conditions, also under fast charging
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=537340&pp=15
Thats from independent testing by RC hobbyists
Couple of conclusions:
"Capacity loss is about 0.1 AH, when the cell is fast-charged and
discharged 10 times @ 60 amps."
All in all though, the cells seem to take a severe punishment quite
well compared to other top of the line stuff on the market.
How does it scale for EV apps is a different matter. Dont even mention
the price ...
-kert
On 8/4/06, Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes and now we will clearly see the real limitation of EV, not range but
time charge and so on power required !
to resume:
We need charging infrastructures.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Ciciora" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
> If you go to this link:
>
> http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/power.html
>
> on the right there is a graph (click on it to make it
> bigger). I'll re-type the caption:
>
> "A123 batteries can safely charge to very high
> capacity in less than 5 minutes with low temperature
> rise and no cell damage. This chart shows the
> temperature (orange curve) of a cell as it charges at
> different rates between 2C (30 minutes) and 20C (3
> minutes) and discharges at 10C (6 minutes) after each
> charge."
>
> The graph show temperature ranging between 25 deg. C
> and 40 deg. C. There is a voltage plot, I roughly
> estimate it shows it between about 2.8V and 3.8ish V.
>
>
> I don't know the details of the test involved (was
> there any cooling? Ambient air temperature? Where and
> how did they measure temperature?) but the curves seem
> to back up the claim.
>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
> --- Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone actually seen the A123 batteries being
> > charged in the five minutes ?
> > Is the five-minute charge even really possible ?
> > From what i gather,
> > their chargers in deWalt powertools are using
> > one-hour charger.
> >
> > For a EV-sized pack you will obviously hit serious
> > amp limits.
> >
> > BTW, wasnt it reported that Tesla pack is built as
> > sort of "RAID array
> > of batteries" so you can slide out individual sheets
> > and replace them
> > one by one ? With some sweat, you could
> > theoretically change the
> > entire pack in a few minutes, if its true.
> >
> > -kert
>
> (snip)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many horse is your Motor?
-------Original Message-------
From: Matthew Milliron
Date: 07/31/06 23:57:59
To: [email protected]
Cc: Schalles, Francis
Subject: Re: EV Grin!!!!!!!!
IT'S ALIVE! ALIVE!HA HA HA HA. I too got my first EV grin today. I
removed my old corroded battery boxes and was able to hook up a 12
volt to my motor. It runs! no weird noises or smells.
R. Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
1981 Jet Electrica.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just an observation, but my spam filter goes into overdrive any time I post
to this list. Seems someone uses the email addresses to send out a boat load
of spam, and that is with a gmail account. Gmail is very good at
pre-filtering spam. I used to get maybe 5 spams in my spam folder a week,
but now can get over 100 a day.
I'm new to the EV list and a lot of the terms, brands and acronyms are new
to me. Any good EV based forums out there so I can look at older projects
and the such? Going through the archives of this list is not much fun.
Thanks,
-Wayne
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
You'll want to mount them on standoffs, regardless of where you put them. I
used 1/8" acrylic sheets, about 4" wide by 30" long to span across groups of
four batteries. The regs mount on the sheets, and the sheets are above the
battery cables. This way the wiring is as short as possible.
The downside is that I don't have them in an enclosure, and the ones under
the hood are exposed to the elements. Ideally, I would think that mounting
them in an enclosure equipped with a fan, close to the batteries they
regulate, would be best.
You can sort of make out the front setup in the lower portion of the picture
from the dragtimes.com record:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan-240SX-Timeslip-7382.html
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: David Brandt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:13 PM
To: EVDLposts
Subject: reg installations
I'm planning my reg installation, and would love to hear recommendations and
see some pictures of how others have done theirs. Should I look for
enclosures, some kind of plastic box to keep them dry? Or will they heat up
too much if I do that? How do others keep them cool while keeping them dry,
too?
I do remember the post regarding not placing them directly on a battery, as
they get too hot.
Thanks in advance!
David Brandt
--- End Message ---
