EV Digest 5754
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Last uninformed question (re: battery specs)...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: YouTube, Inc. and EV promo
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Last uninformed question (re: battery specs)...
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: MIT creates energy manhattan project
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Last uninformed question (re: battery specs)...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Are all the federal tax incentives for EV conversions gone?
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Electrical Humor
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Zebra batteries
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Streetcar components - extra high voltage
by Lawrence Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Streetcar components - extra high voltage
by Alan Grimes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Streetcar components - extra high voltage
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Netgain Warp 8" availability?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) OT ConocoPhillips was Re: EVs show at the Alaska Renewable Energy Fair
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Streetcar components - extra high voltage
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Simple Battery box
by "Tom Gocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Contactor Last Off
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Fiberglass box questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electrical Humor
by "Mark Metcalf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: LRR tires (again)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just so I am clear when I finalize my wish list for batteries and can come
up with a good
budget I want to make sure I understand the C ratings on batteries.
A C/20 rating is the number of amps that can be drawn from a fully charged
battery for
20 hours. So if it is a C/20 rating of 50 Ah could pull 50 amps for
(approx) 20 hours
before the battery is completely discharged (I know it's not recommended for
battery
life).
So, if I have a motor that pulls an average of 100 amps it should be able to
run for
(approx) 10 hours to full discharge. Is that correct? Obviously load and
driving conditions
will affect actual usage, but this is in a perfect world. ;)
Thanks, and I do appreciate all your pointers. I look forward to assembling
my EV and
using it as a daily driver.
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
How come she put her hand on the Manzitamicro charger
when she said "the brains" ???
Did anyone notice that?
Lock Hughes wrote:
Good man!
Great vid, BTW. Had to (finally) join YouTube just to vote <grin>
And "1 Honour" already for your vid. (If you click on the "Honours"
bit, right now if says "#98 - Top Favorites (Today) - Autos &
Vehicles")
So yer Top 100 material! Interesting too, to see the Playlist that
YouTube displays that's "related" to your vid.
Tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric hybrid
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just added the report the local ABC news team did on my Electrabishi
truck last week.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyV9qQleBDI
Looks like there is a growing number of news reports contradicting
the Ford Eviro lady's claim that there is no market for E- cars
and that hydorgen is the wave of the futre. How many hydrogen cars
did you pass on the way to work today? How many hydrogen
re-fueling stations did you see today?
Just got finished with the Alaska Renewable Energy Fair today. (full
report to follow in separate thread). After EVeryone got
done looking at the Hybrids and flex- fuels and they came and checked
out the electric and heard some cold hard facts, they asked
"Why can't I buy one of these?" Now they're hooked, referred them to
WKtEC starting next week. :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lock Hughes
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 12:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: YouTube, Inc. and EV promo
Caught a comment recently on the evdl... someone reporting climbing
hit counts to their EV web site. Perhaps a credit to WKtEC and gas
prices in NA.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joe,
I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies to this...
The 20-hour rating has to be divided into the amp-hour capacity to
determine amps pulled per hour-- for instance, my Deka Dominator in
Group 31 size is listed as providing about a 97ah capacity, at C/20.
Consider the slash to stand for division. I can pull 4.88 amps from my
battery, for 20 hours, providing me with that advertised 97ah.
Most standard size and chemistry batteries give their overall AH
capacity at the 20-hour rate, though their are exceptions.
And, no, there is not a linear relationship of time/capacity-- if you
pulled all your amps at a higher rate, you will get substantially less
capacity (and pulling the amps at a lower rate will give more usable
capacity-- the 100 hour rate for my example results in a 112ah capacity).
Also remember the DOD costs to the life-cycle of your battery banks. All
lead-acid-based batteries will live longer if they are not fully
discharged. Many people try to make their banks last longer by never
going below 50% DOD. Some fanatical people keep their DOD to 20% or so,
charging their banks after mild use (and making their batteries last for
a decade or more).
So, you should probably calculate your battery's AH requirements based
on a predicted 50% DOD cycle habit, and you should be looking for the
C/2 or C/1 rating (which is only 64ah in my example Deka 8G31).
Regards
Joe Plumer wrote:
Just so I am clear when I finalize my wish list for batteries and can
come up with a good
budget I want to make sure I understand the C ratings on batteries.
A C/20 rating is the number of amps that can be drawn from a fully
charged battery for
20 hours. So if it is a C/20 rating of 50 Ah could pull 50 amps for
(approx) 20 hours
before the battery is completely discharged (I know it's not recommended
for battery
life).
So, if I have a motor that pulls an average of 100 amps it should be
able to run for
(approx) 10 hours to full discharge. Is that correct? Obviously load
and driving conditions
will affect actual usage, but this is in a perfect world. ;)
Thanks, and I do appreciate all your pointers. I look forward to
assembling my EV and
using it as a daily driver.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's
FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I apologize for not being more specific. The article I referenced actually
had two links to MIT articles that are of great interest for EV
applications:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/battery-hybrid.html
and
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/batteries-0208.html
Both articles deal with battery improvements. The first is about advances
in lithium nickel manganese oxide batteries and the second is about
nanotube-based supercapacitors.
Matt (who will go back to lurking now)
On 8/12/06, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
We've had several new list members in the last few weeks, so I'm posting
to
remind them (and others who may have forgotten) that the purpose of this
list is to discuss EVs, not alternative energy.
There is another list at SJSU specifically for discussing alternative
energy. You may subscribe by sending the command
subscribe ae Your-first-name Your-last-name
to the address
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
If in doubt about whether your subject is appropriate for the EV list,
please read the EVDL guidelines here :
http://www.evdl.org/help/
Thank you!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, I understand better. That is the cumulative current that can be drawn
from the
battery over the stated C/n rating.
Thanks.
Hi Joe,
I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies to this...
The 20-hour rating has to be divided into the amp-hour capacity to
determine amps pulled per hour-- for instance, my Deka Dominator in Group
31 size is listed as providing about a 97ah capacity, at C/20. Consider the
slash to stand for division. I can pull 4.88 amps from my battery, for 20
hours, providing me with that advertised 97ah.
Most standard size and chemistry batteries give their overall AH capacity
at the 20-hour rate, though their are exceptions.
And, no, there is not a linear relationship of time/capacity-- if you
pulled all your amps at a higher rate, you will get substantially less
capacity (and pulling the amps at a lower rate will give more usable
capacity-- the 100 hour rate for my example results in a 112ah capacity).
Also remember the DOD costs to the life-cycle of your battery banks. All
lead-acid-based batteries will live longer if they are not fully
discharged. Many people try to make their banks last longer by never going
below 50% DOD. Some fanatical people keep their DOD to 20% or so, charging
their banks after mild use (and making their batteries last for a decade or
more).
So, you should probably calculate your battery's AH requirements based on a
predicted 50% DOD cycle habit, and you should be looking for the C/2 or C/1
rating (which is only 64ah in my example Deka 8G31).
Regards
Joe Plumer wrote:
Just so I am clear when I finalize my wish list for batteries and can come
up with a good
budget I want to make sure I understand the C ratings on batteries.
A C/20 rating is the number of amps that can be drawn from a fully charged
battery for
20 hours. So if it is a C/20 rating of 50 Ah could pull 50 amps for
(approx) 20 hours
before the battery is completely discharged (I know it's not recommended
for battery
life).
So, if I have a motor that pulls an average of 100 amps it should be able
to run for
(approx) 10 hours to full discharge. Is that correct? Obviously load and
driving conditions
will affect actual usage, but this is in a perfect world. ;)
Thanks, and I do appreciate all your pointers. I look forward to
assembling my EV and
using it as a daily driver.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric and Clean-Fuel Vehicles
The clean-fuel vehicle and refueling property deduction expired for vehicles
placed in service in 2006. The qualified electric vehicle credit is reduced
by 75% for vehicles placed in service in 2006, and no credit will be allowed
after 2006. For more information about electric and clean-fuel vehicles, see
chapter 12 in Publication 535.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Chancey
> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 11:58 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Are all the federal tax incentives for EV conversions gone?
>
> Are all the federal tax incentives for EV conversions gone? I have been
> checking through the IRS website and I can find no reference to electric
> conversions at all. Did they dump that completely?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position.
> (Horace)
>
>
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are the typical IGBTs used in monster DC motor controllers? I am just
curious how
much they cost to build something that will handle 2000 amps for short bursts.
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Watch your battery compartments. This guy Hop-a-Long Capacity might be lurking
in the EV community on a stolen kilocycle. Check you garage Bill.
WANTED
A reward of 500 microfarads is offered for information leading to the arrestor
of Hop-a-Long Capacity.
This unrectified criminal escaped from a weston primary cell where he had been
clamped in ions awaiting the gauss chamber.
He is armed with a carbon rod and is a potential killer.
He is charged with the induction of an 18 turn coil named Milli Henry who was
found choked and robbed of valuable joules.
Capacity is also charged with driving a DC motor over a wheatstone bridge and
refusing to let the bandpass.
He was last seen riding a kilocylce and playing a harmonic he stole from Eddy
Current.
If encountered he may offer series resistance.
The electromotive force spent the night searching for him in a magnetic field,
where he had gone to earth.
They had no success and believe he may have returned ohm via a short circuit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Competitive to what?
> I'd love to pack the energy of LiIon in a lightweight
> car, but with my current $2200 for a 34kWh pack this
> is less than 10% of the cost. I know - lead is not
> a competition to LiIon in many ways, but if I would
> wait until I can afford LiIon, I would still not be
> driving an EV every day.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
After all the overheating probs w/ these batts in hand held devices, I'd
be afraid of getting enough of them together for an auto.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have a group from the Transit Museum Society in Vancouver restoring a
1930's Belgium electric streetcar which runs on 600V DC. They want to
replace the contactor/resistor controller with a DC chopper based
controller. I don't know where you would start so I am hoping someone
on the list has some ideas.
Their immediate concerns is to find 10uF electrolytic capacitors in the
600 to 900 volt range and a DC breaker with a similar rating.
Thanks, Lawrence
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Their immediate concerns is to find 10uF electrolytic capacitors in the
> 600 to 900 volt range and a DC breaker with a similar rating.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/CapacitorsElectrolytic.html
Have a look at the "unlytic" sub-page. [EMAIL PROTECTED],000v
--
Anyone who uses the phrase "Islamofascism" or "Islamic extremist"
without quotes is telling a lie.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electrolytics would be a bad idea here. Use films instead (unless you
meant 10mF?). They have a considerably longer life and are
"self-healing."
Digi-Key has the FFB46J0106K (525V, 10uF, 12A) for $84.60/10.
Also, the FFB56A0106K (720V, 10uF, 12A) for $101.40/10.
Next, the FFV36A0206K (700V, 20uF, 30A) for $183.05/10.
Finally, the FFV36C0136K (900V, 13uF, 25A) for $163.45/10.
I recommend the third one.
More can be seen here:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T062/1197.pdf
- Arthur
On Mon, 2006-08-14 at 13:04 -0700, Lawrence Harris wrote:
> We have a group from the Transit Museum Society in Vancouver restoring a
> 1930's Belgium electric streetcar which runs on 600V DC. They want to
> replace the contactor/resistor controller with a DC chopper based
> controller. I don't know where you would start so I am hoping someone
> on the list has some ideas.
>
> Their immediate concerns are to find 10uF electrolytic capacitors in the
> 600 to 900 volt range and a DC breaker with a similar rating.
>
> Thanks, Lawrence
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems the only place selling the Netgain Warp 8" these days is the
much-avoided "Electric Vehicles USA." I know EV Source carries Netgain,
but only 9" (and a 9/8 hybrid) and up. I've put in inquiry to them via
their website.
Anyone have a source?
--Eric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Showing Battery Box
> (funny I just now noticed the Chevron building in the background)
> http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3776.JPG
AND *ConocoPhillips* * too Mike. Priceless pic.
Congrats on your Fair effort (I'm punning here, "fair" does not do
justice)
Tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric hybrid
* ConocoPhillips - fifth largest refiner in the world.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 01:04 PM 14/08/06 -0700, Lawrence wrote:
We have a group from the Transit Museum Society in Vancouver restoring a
1930's Belgium electric streetcar which runs on 600V DC. They want to
replace the contactor/resistor controller with a DC chopper based
controller. I don't know where you would start so I am hoping someone on
the list has some ideas.
Their immediate concerns is to find 10uF electrolytic capacitors in the
600 to 900 volt range and a DC breaker with a similar rating.
G'day Lawrence
Industrial variable-frequency drives for 400 to 600VAC service use
components in this range, although 10uF electrolytics are not something
that I've had to deal much with (they'd be on the PCBs & mostly if there is
a PCB problem they're beyond our repair capacity due to the common use of
specialized bits that we can't get).
Braking resistor systems often have a transistor chopper that is used to
dissapate excess power when the AC drive is in braking mode, but they are
controlled by the buss voltage (work automatically when the buss voltage
goes too high). One of these may be able to be "hacked" as a controller at
those voltages if you can't find anything else.
As to your breaker, 600 to 900V at what amps?
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
The total coat was about 20 mils thick. It is available in white or gray.
I bought a ton of it a couple years ago when I was trying to be a nice guy with
my landlord, who had a roofing problem. Long story short, I have enough to do a
lot of battery boxes and maybe paint my house with it!
Works very well for roofing and battery boxes, I think.
I am down on the coast in Searsport. Went to Marden' today and got some 2/0
wire cutters for $10.
Let me know when you are back in Maine.
Tom
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: A simple battery box?
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:21:24 -0700 (PDT)
Tom
How thick did the 4 coats come out to? I'm building my boxes pretty
tight and I don't have a lot
of room to play with. I'd like to try coating the inside of the box
with the EPDM, but use
fiberglass on the outside. I'd like to give a little more strength to
the wood with the
fiberglass.
Dave Cover
PS Guessing that since your station is in Bangor, you are in the
Bangor area too. I was sorta
close a few weeks ago. My folks live up on Moosehead and we get as
close as the Newport exit off
95. In fact, the 5 layer 1/4" plywood I'm using for my battery boxes
came from the Mardens in
Bangor. Maybe we can stop by on next years pilgrimage to Beaver Cove.
--- Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am just in the throes of doing a battery box on my S10 pickup. I
> did not install any batteries
> under the hood, wanting to keep access easy for all those
> components. And the nicads I am using
> a rather tall, so, I removed the original bed and built a wooded
> pressure treated one. Am
> planning on building fiberglass covered foam walls to look like the
> original, but should be a
> lot lighter(?)
> Am sacrificing a lot of bed space in this approach, but it is very
> easy to keep an eye on the
> nicads. After testing at 72V, I removed all the batteries and
> coated the pressure treated with
> Geocel rubber roof coating. There are a lot of coatings like this.
> It is a liquid rubber, like
> EPDM (which is used for wire insulation). I installed four coats
> and when it cures (4 hrs a
> coat), it is like a solid piece of rubber. It fills any holes and
> flows nicely. I will post some
> pix on the photo album soon. Also used some thin, 1/8" polyethylene
> film under the cells as a
> release, since the coating was a little tacky when I put in the batteries.
>
> Now to install a full 120V worth.
>
> Tom in Maine
> www.hotandcold.tv
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
Insert to the following questions below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> Hi Roland,
>
> I got that spreadsheet of my ICE costs to port over - it's at the very end
> of this reply.
>
> Well, a lot of what you just said went *right-over-my-head* and I see I
> have
> a lot of studying up to do if I'm to plan an electric car. Here's my
> background: I attempted to build an electric car in 1981. It was an Austin
> America (basically the same as an MG1100), dark green in color. Its motor
> was a starter/generator out of an F-86 (Korean war vintage jet) that I
> bought from Spencer Aircraft Supply in south Seattle for $400. The
> controller was (I think, my memory is poor) a SCR Type, homebuilt by
> myself
> and my Dad, and housed in a black phenolic box from RadioShack. The 6
> batteries I had were 6VDC deep-cycle lead-acid golf cart type from "DYNO"
> Company. I had plans to buy 12 more for a total of 18, when I lost my job
> and had to sell it all (not assembled) to members of the Seattle Electric
> Vehicle Association. At that time I also had NO garage, carport, or even a
> driveway. I paid rent to the local Union 76 station to store it on their
> lot
> for me.
>
> Technology has changed so much since then!
>
> So, present day: I did some research on the internet. I was especially
> impressed by the Honda CRX conversion by an electrical engineer in Oregon
> named Victor Tikhonov whose website is:
> http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main.htm
>
> Just a gut feeling, but I think Tikhonov's way is the way to go. I'm doing
> a
> cost analysis now. One problem: I can't find ANYONE who sells ultracaps.
> The
> supercapacitor industry seems to be in flux at the moment. Are they in a
> hold pattern, waiting for the price to go up?
A company call ESMA in Russia makes supercapacitors that are used to drive
service trucks and buses. They are as big or bigger than batteries. They
would cost about $40,000.00 for my car. See www.esma-cap.com
>
> >
> > The controller -- was close to $10,000.00.
> >
> > This battery charger package is over $10,000.00.
> >
> > The accessory drive units was about $1000.00 and the Delco
> > alternator-inverter unit was another $1000.00.
> >
> > The GE motor is something else. This motor was design in house to how
> > the
> > windings are to be done, type, commentator poles, commentator micro
> > mirror, etc. and contract out to GE for building. These motors are way
> > over $10,000.00.
> >
> > Then there is the vehicle modifications and customizing. This was done
> > by
> > Creative Industrial in Detroit. This mod includes extending the car
> > length
> > another foot, a new nose section, reinforced frame sections, heavy duty
> > suspension system rated for 3500 lbs at each wheel.
>
> I gotta say --- I'm APPALLED at your costs. These are 1975 dollars? I
> thought (hoped) the controllers can be had for $2000 - $3000, battery
> chargers for $300 - $500, AC motors for $5000.
>
> I see this is custom work. I won't do that, I'll try for a stock doner car
> that can be stripped down.
>
> I've no idea what Cobalt batteries are. I'm only familiar with L-A.
>
>
> >
>
> > I ran the standard 6 volt Exide batteries, because I was only driving 2
> > miles to work and back and it was not cost effected to run a high power
> > batteries that have driven one of these cars to 152 miles driving
> > Chicago
> > city streets.
> >
>
>
> My normal Mon-Fri commute is 4 miles RT. However, i'm hoping for a range
> of
> 100 freeway miles. This will get me from Renton, WA to Marysville, WA and
> back without recharging. I'm counting on regen of course! Guess I'll need
> those higher power batteries. What kind can get you 152 city miles?
These Cobalt cells are very heavy. They weigh about 50 lbs per cell and
would cost about $6000.00 for 42 cell block which weighs about 2000 lbs
each.
To drive my car today, this would cost me (factory cost) about $15,000.00
for a 180 volt pack. They are not on the shelf units. They are made by
special order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They are
normally a proto type battery as of now. You can get them from The Appollo
Energy Systems. www.apolloenergysystems.com
>
> >
> > Another mod I did was to have the pilot shaft of the GE motor drive the
> > accessory units, just like a engine drives this units threw a pulley and
> > belt system by using a Dodge Power coupler and electrical clutch
> > disconnect unit.
> >
>
>
> The way to go here (my opinion) is with a separate small motor driving the
> accessorys so you dont lose power steering and air con when stopped.
When I stop for a minute, these systems do not lose any power. The vacuum
and A/C stays up, but the power steering is not needed if you are stop.
>
> >
>
> > When I am going down a steep icy hill, I can connected the motor pilot
> > shaft to the accessory drive to give me a mechanical REGEN, which will
> > slow or maintain the down hill speed. Otherwise, it would be
> > disconnected
> > and the Honeywell motor-generator would drive these units.
> >
>
>
> mechanical regen? You mean like some sort of lever operated clutch to tie
> the two together?
It's a electrical clutch or brake unit made by the Dodge Power Company.
They can work at 12, 90 or 180 vdc.
>
> >
> > A large wire way is install down the middle of the car under the center
> > console, that holds all the control and power circuits, that are in
> > seperated shielded conduits.
> >
>
> GREAT idea! I'm gonna use that!
One thing I forgot to add, is that I have a hinge up access panel on top of
the console that is right behind all my control switches that is also
mounted on a removable plate. Under this access panel is all the the fuse
holders which I use clip in circuit breakers instead of fuses, you can get
from NAPA.
Each group of switches that are mounted on removable plates, can also be
unplug from the control wires using the small gangable Power Anderson 15 to
30 amp interlock plugs.
This wireway goes to the firewall that has threw bushings for cables and
wires to go into the motor bay. In a pickup, the wire way goes through the
back wall under the rear window and than tees to both sides to the inner
fender well.
Then turns 90 degrees along the inner fender wells and goes into a large
component housing the goes across that is in the rear against the rear tail
gate.
The battery box is a separate box that is in the middle of the bed with this
wireway space around it.
>
>
> > I need to replace this Honeywell unit, with another motor drive unit. So
> > you see, the mods and changes is always a on going project.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> >
> >
> >> Roland,
> >> I HAD a nice table done in excel that I pasted into mail and it got all
> >> screwed up. Next time I'll try running it thru MSWord first.
> >> I get that your EV costs are 2/3 of the ICE costs, but jeez, $100,000 -
> >> that
> >> better be the cumulative costs since 1975? I hope it is. You coulda had
> >> a
> >> Tesla for that! I see you believe in empirical testing. :)
> >> Were the battery packs the same or did you upgrade each time you
> >> changed?
> >> Did you do lead acid-to-whatever-to-Li-Ion? What's the story about
> >> having
> >> to
> >> change the electrical system? You must have started out DC and you went
> >> to
> >> AC? AC is the way I'm leaning. I'm no electrical engineer, but it just
> >> seems to make sense.
> >>
> >> Once I get my (future) EV going it will become my daily driver, and I
> >> will
> >> sell my ICE car.
> >> Ryan G. Plut
> >> "Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got
> >> it" -
> >> G.
> >> Bernard Shaw
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 5:07 AM
> >> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hello Ryan,
> >> >
> >> > I have a comparison cost of my ICE which is a sister car (same model)
> >> > as
> >> > the EV that goes way back to 1975.
> >> >
> >> > I use the ICE to test out the driving conditions and distances that I
> >> > will
> >> > then drive the EV on the same course. A onboard Holly computer, told
> >> > me
> >> > what the best course to take with the EV.
> >> >
> >> > I still have both cars today, which are in better than factory new
> >> > conditions. To attain this like new condition, the ICE maintenance
> >> > and
> >> > lots of replacements of everything four times, the cost is now over
> >> > $150,000.00 for the ICE, while the EV is now approaching $100,000.00
> >> > with
> >> > only one time replacement of the electrical system and three
> >> > replacements
> >> > of the battery pack.
> >> >
> >> > Roland
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > To: <[email protected]>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:37 PM
> >> > Subject: My ICE Costs
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> I wanted to see how much I'm spending on my ICE car. Here's a
> >> >> spreadsheet
> >> >> that totals it up. I've driven 60k so far in my Chrysler Concorde.
> >> >> I'm
> >> >> starting my mileage count from 2007 instaed of adding the 60,000
> >> >> miles
> >> >> to
> >> >> it up front. Also the maintenance column is based on what I've
> >> >> actually
> >> >> spent on the car, carried forward, but doesn't include the $1,200 I
> >> >> just
> >> >> dropped on A/C and tranny work. Of course, the $/gal could (will) go
> >> >> up
> >> >> faster than inflation.
> >> >> I haven't totalled up the initial and ongoing costs of an EV yet.
> >> >> That
> >> >> comes later. But I like to think how much I WILL NOT be spending on
> >> >> gas
> >> >> and oil as I build my EV :-D
> >> >>
>
> 60000 miles total
>
> 9523.8 Miles per year
>
> 22.7 MPG
>
> Year/Cost of Gas per Gallon*/Miles per year/Cum. MPY/Cost of Gas per
> Year/Cost of Maintenence*/Cum. Cost per Year
>
> 2007 $3.00 9523.81 9523.81 $1,258.65 $400.00 $1,658.65
>
> 2008 $3.12 9523.81 19047.62 $1,309.00 $416.00 $3,383.65
>
> 2009 $3.24 9523.81 28571.43 $1,361.36 $432.64 $5,177.65
>
> 2010 $3.37 9523.81 38095.24 $1,415.81 $449.95 $7,043.41
>
> 2011 $3.51 9523.81 47619.05 $1,472.45 $467.94 $8,983.80
>
> 2012 $3.65 9523.81 57142.86 $1,531.34 $486.66 $ 11,001.81
>
> 2013 $3.80 9523.81 66666.67 $1,592.60 $506.13 $ 13,100.53
>
> 2014 $3.95 9523.81 76190.48 $1,656.30 $526.37 $ 15,283.21
>
> 2015 $4.11 9523.81 85714.29 $1,722.55 $547.43 $ 17,553.19
>
> 2016 $4.27 9523.81 95238.10 $1,791.46 $569.32 $ 19,913.97
>
> 2017 $4.44 9523.81 104761.90 $1,863.11 $592.10 $ 22,369.18
>
> 2018 $4.62 9523.81 114285.71 $1,937.64 $615.78 $ 24,922.60
>
> 2019 $4.80 9523.81 123809.52 $2,015.14 $640.41 $ 27,578.16
>
> 2020 $5.00 9523.81 133333.33 $2,095.75 $666.03 $ 30,339.94
>
> 2021 $5.20 9523.81 142857.14 $2,179.58 $692.67 $ 33,212.19
>
> 2022 $5.40 9523.81 152380.95 $2,266.76 $720.38 $ 36,199.33
>
> 2023 $5.62 9523.81 161904.76 $2,357.43 $749.19 $ 39,305.96
>
> 2024 $5.84 9523.81 171428.57 $2,451.73 $779.16 $ 42,536.85
>
> 2025 $6.08 9523.81 180952.38 $2,549.80 $810.33 $ 45,896.97
>
> 2026 $6.32 9523.81 190476.19 $2,651.79 $842.74 $ 49,391.51
>
> 2027 $6.57 9523.81 200000.00 $2,757.86 $876.45 $ 53,025.82
>
> 2028 $6.84 9523.81 209523.81 $2,868.18 $911.51 $ 56,805.51
>
> 2029 $7.11 9523.81 219047.62 $2,982.91 $947.97 $ 60,736.38
>
> * Increase of 4%/Yr for inflation shown
>
> Ryan G. Plut
> "Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" -
> G.
> Bernard Shaw
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I've put two contactors in my EV, on the positive and negative lines,
> respectively, with a precharge bulb across the positive contactor.
> The startup sequence is as follows:
>
> 1) Negative contactor closes
> 2) This causes a relay to close which turns on the bulb
> 3) Bulb relay stays on while driving and positive contactor
opens/closes
>
> That's fine for startup, but in the reverse sequence, when I'm
> turning the car off, I realized that the negative contactor will
> open before the precharge relay opens. Will this causes any
> damage (arcing, etc.) to the negative contactor?
No, it shouldn't. You can verify this by watching it. If the contacts
are arcing significantly, it indicates a problem.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I built my battery box out of 1/4 inch fiberglass sheets, that was lay out
with a very fine mesh on one side and laying larger weaves until it was 1/4
inch thick.
You can do this your self by lay these sheets on a smooth 4 foot by 8 foot
piece of metal.
or it would be cheaper to:
If you have a source to a fiberglass company as I did, they will make up any
size sheets you want. You can cut and hole saw them to fit. I also pick up
some 2 by 2 inch fiberglass angle to finish the top edge so the cover will
have a flat area to seal.
Also they will tell you how to apply different layers of fiber glass tape,
which I applied on the outside corners, which is many layers that overlap up
to 1/2 inch.
The inside surfaces which was very smooth by having them gelcoating the
surfaces, I just had to applied fiberglass gel into a the inside corners to
fill a 1/8 inch crack. The press in a smooth aluminum angle which was wipe
down with a grease, which gives the inside corners a nice sharp angle, and
than remove the angle by sliding it out.
I than finish the inside of the battery box with the same thick expoxy
coating you can get in a sink and tub finishing kits you can get from any
hardward store.
I also install four large fiberglass 4 inch by 4 inch by 1/4 inch angles,
that was also fiberglass to the outside bottom edge of the box. This angle
surface was used to bolt the battery box to the cross supports that go
between the vehicle frame.
It is best not have any expose bolts heads inside the box as it could damage
the batteries and it may provide a conduct path to the vehicle frame.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: Fiberglass box questions
> And don't forget, new wet wood will cause voltage leakage.
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> United States Air Force, Retired
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Fiberglass box questions
>
>
> >
> > Hi Dave and All,
> > No reason to use glass as wood is quite
> > strong enough, heck I built my whole EV body/chassis from
> > it.
> > Just make sure it has very strong coner
> > joints as batts are very heavy.
> > Then coat it with a boat or aircraft clear
> > epoxy made for wood or just paint it with enamel. If your
> > joinier isn't good, you could tape the seems with
> > fiberglass, not cloth but something heavier and epoxy.
> >
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message Follows -----
> > From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Fiberglass box questions
> > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:22:59 -0700
> >
> >>Dave, i've done a fair bit of fiberglass working making
> >>body parts, but not structural stuff. I'd assume that the
> >>glass is basically sealing off the wood, and given you
> >>know wood, make the wood strong, and use a thin layer
> >>should be sufficient. The resin holds it together, so it
> >>should be as thick as the glass itself. For resin, epoxy
> >>is more expensive but doesn't create bad fumes, your wife
> >>and neighbors will appreciate using the epoxy, and it
> >>doesn't shrink like the other stuff, so I'd use it. Hope
> >>that helps, Jack
> >>
> >>Dave Cover wrote:
> >>> I'm considering building some battery boxes out of
> >>> fiberglass and wood. I have no experience working with
> >>fiberglass, but lot's with wood. The box will be about 14
> >>> inches wide and about 33 inches long. The box will be
> >>> supported primarily from the top edge, with one cross
> >>brace underneath about 2/3 down it's lenght. I'll run some
> >>> wooden slats the long way down the box floor for support.
> >>It will need to hold around 225 lbs of cells. Building a
> >>> box out of plywood is easy, but it will suffer from road
> >>salt and electrolyte. Paint will help, but that's a short
> >>> term solution. If I use fiberglass, it will not be
> >>> affected by the environment, but I don't know how to make
> >>it strong enough by itself. So I'm looking to make a wooden
> >>> box and fiberglass it. Not an original idea.
> >>>
> >>> Here are my questions, all from a fiberglass newbie;
> >>> 1. How many layers should I put down to to protect the
> >>> wood? 2. Am i better off using 3/4" plywood and a thin
> >>> glass skin or thinner plywood and more glass? 2. How
> >>thick are the layers of applied fiberglass, (for planning
> >>> dimensions?) Is one layer 1/8th of an inch, 2 layers
> >>> 3/16ths? 3. How structural can the fiberglass be? If I
> >>> build up a 1/4 inch layer, is that stronger than the
> >>> wooden box? 4. What type of fiberglass should I use? I've
> >>> seen Knytex, Volan treated, etc. 5. What weight cloth?
> >>> 8oz, double layer 4.4 oz? 6. What type of resin should I
> >>> use to resist the NiCd electrolyte?
> >>> Sorry about the tenderfoot questions, any help is
> >>> appreciated.
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Dave Cover
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
Watch your battery compartments. This guy Hop-a-Long Capacity might be lurking
in the EV community on a stolen kilocycle. Check you garage Bill.
WANTED
A reward of 500 microfarads is offered for information leading to the arrestor of Hop-a-Long Capacity.
This unrectified criminal escaped from a weston primary cell where he had been clamped in ions awaiting the gauss chamber.
He is armed with a carbon rod and is a potential killer.
He is charged with the induction of an 18 turn coil named Milli Henry who was found choked and robbed of valuable joules.
Capacity is also charged with driving a DC motor over a wheatstone bridge and refusing to let the bandpass.
He was last seen riding a kilocylce and playing a harmonic he stole from Eddy
Current.
If encountered he may offer series resistance.
The electromotive force spent the night searching for him in a magnetic field, where he had gone to earth.
They had no success and believe he may have returned ohm via a short circuit.
Hooray for your PUNishing commentary. Thank You.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may have too much tire deflection with the added weight on the tires.
I been looking at tires for some time, and I can only go to a 18 inch truck
tire that has the same load rating by 15 inch has now.
I can push my 7000 lb vehicle with one finger, which I demo a lot of times.
I am running a [EMAIL PROTECTED] tire 8 inch wide tire with a narrow foot print.
Look at the load rating on the side of the tire, these will normally say,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] For my EV, I need a minimum of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A high deflection rate will increase the resistance of the tire and will
increase the temperature of the tire.
To check for the correct deflection rate. Jack that one tire off the
pavement and air it up to the maximum psi, that is listed on the tire.
Now lower the tire, so it just touches the pavement and measure from the
pavement to the bottom rim of the wheel. Lets say this is 4 inches.
Now low the tire so the entire weight of the vehicle is on that tire, and
measure again. Lets say it reads 3.5 inches. This means you have a 0.5
inch deflection rate which is over 10 percent which may be too much.
The best deflection rate is around 5 percent.
A lot of these new tires, have a very loose side wall that they will too
much of a deflection rated which may be cause by increase weight.
The wheels should also be rated little more than the vehicle weight on each
wheel. Most of the nice looking wheels for a standard vehicle are mostly
rated under 1800 lbs. My wheels on my EV are rated for 3500 lbs.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: LRR tires (again)
> Otmar,
> I use the MXV4 plus Michelins on my E-Fiero at 44PSI they are quiet &
> ride good but I haven't noticed any great improvement over the Stock
> tires as far as mileage.
>
> Pat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:14 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: LRR tires (again)
>
> Hello People,
>
> I've just experienced an amazing 25% increase in power consumption on my
> EV.
>
> The other day I was in a hurry to get tires on the back of the 914 for
> the
> races at PIR so Steve Stark would have more than steel belts for
> traction.
> It seems the new batteries had mysteriously smoked much of the rubber
> off
> the tires and the belts were showing on both sides. Those tires were
> Continental EcoContact EP 175/55 R15. They are the OEM tire for the
> rear
> of the DaimlerChrysler Smart car and ACP listed them at 0.010 in rolling
> drag (I think). I got the last set from Europe and didn't have time to
> go
> through that again.
>
> Being in a hurry, I went to Les Schwab and had them install a likely
> looking tire. It was a Toyo Proxes 4, 195/50 R15 which I run at the
> rated
> 50 psi. Man! What a turd that tire is. Just putting two on the back
> killed
> my range (by 25%) and in addition the rear end needs to "set up" causing
> the car to wander when attempting to go straight. I rechecked the toe in
> since it felt so bad, but it was still neutral so I'm pretty sure it's
> just a poor tire.
>
> Now I want new tires all around. They have to be 15". This car is not
> really competitive in racing anymore so my primary concern is to find
> the
> lowest rolling resistance tire that I can. I'm looking for something
> down
> around .006.
>
> My first choice was the EV-1 tire, the Michelin Proxima since it came in
> a
> 15" and I've measured nice low rolling drag numbers on it. (0.0045 on a
> EV-1 and 0.0065 on a Del Sol with the non sealing ones) Unfortunately
> Michelin seems not to sell the Proxima in the USA anymore.
>
> I love the low rolling drag of the P165/65 SR14 RE92 Potenza on my
> Insight, but I'm told the other sizes of that tire do not share the LRR
> that it enjoys.
>
> The Bridgestone B381 seems to be a 14" tire only.
> And the Bridgestone Ecopia may have been made in a 15" for the Nissan
> Hypermini, but I don't see it for sale anywhere.
>
> Back to Michelin, they seem to have the Energy series. Both the MXV4 S8
> and the MXV4 Plus. The S8 seems to be a OEM tire which makes me suspect
> it
> might have lower rolling resistance to hit CAFE standards, but I find no
> numbers for it.
> The MXV4 Plus in a 16" is rated at a somewhat high .009 in the green
> seal
> report, and I was hoping for better.
>
> So, does anyone have any advice for me?
> Anyone running some good 15" tires that they have taken a scale and
> measured?
> Or maybe just done the finger push test?
> My Insight is less than 2000 lbs and can be pushed either way on a flat
> surface with one finger, and it doesn't even hurt. I like that. The 914
> with these poor tires is taking 3-4 fingers for 3000 lbs. Not very good.
>
> Any advice appreciated!
> Thanks,
> --
> -Otmar-
> 914 EV, California Poppy,
> http://evcl.com/914/
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> Now accepting resumes. Please see:
> http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
