EV Digest 5773
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Making it more efficient
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Optima YTs wanted in Seattle
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Steorn Challenge
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Batteries on concrete, was: Re: Optima YTs wanted in Seattle
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: What does it take to convert a truck?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: MAEAA and WKTEA on KCMO public radio
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Alaska EVA (AkEVA)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Range Extending Generator Trailer
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Making it more efficient
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lithium Safety
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Steorn Challenge
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: WKTEC / electric high way , and Cottage Industries Inc.
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DOD v pack life
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Optima YTs wanted in Seattle
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY
state fleet.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Way to go! Thanks for documenting what you did and how much it
helped.
Look to the racers for ideas!
Land speed smooth hubcaps:
<http://www.mooneyesusa.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=188_52_119>
Weigh your seats, sometimes stock seats can be surprisingly heavy,
and alot of weight saved by going to race seats.
Smaller outside rear view mirrors.
Narrower wheels (drag race skinnies). Less aero drag and even
lighter. You won't corner very well, though!
Synthetic tranny fluid.
Belly pan.
--- Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Some observations on picking up efficiency with my Saturn SC
> conversion.
>
> It's a 144 volt pack of Trojan 30XHS batteries, not that much
> energy on board
> Zilla 1K controller (limited to 500 pack murdering battery amps)
> 9" ADC motor
> Stock "performance" manual transmission... performance version
> has higher gear ratios which is more ideal for electric motors
>
> When I first got the car converted it has some no name tires on
> it. I don't do a whole lot of highway cruising with it so my
> baseline is amps at 40mph steady on flat ground int he city. It
> took about 70 amps to hold 40mph initially.
>
> First modification was to get the old horrible rubber off of it
> and put some decent tires with lower rolling resistance
> characteristics on it, and the old tires were in bad shape too.
> Going to Goodyear Integrity tires in 185/60R15's dropped 10 amps
> now requiring 60 amps to hold 40mph.
>
> Second and third mod's happened at about the same time, I had it
> alligned for 0 toe in and removed the stock wing from the car. I
> noticed a little more from the wing being gone on the highway, but
> overall these dropped the car down to 50 amps.
>
> Fourth and fifth mod occured both pretty recently, but close
> enough together to notice a difference with each. Fourth was
> playing with the brakes. The flexible brake lines looked to be
> original. These rubber hoses will tend to expand with age and not
> let all the brake fluid go back in to the resivor, I replaced all
> of them and at the same time got the caliper rebuild kits for the
> front disk brakes. This consisted basically of new rubber O-rings
> which help retract the piston from the pads. I only drove it some
> before making modification number 5, but this in itself made
> another good 5 amp difference.
>
> Modification number five happened today, which was installing
> light weight wheels. I found some 15X7" wheels weighing in at only
> 12.6 lbs! And even better they didn't totally break the bank. They
> are Kosei K1's, tire rack sells them and they are about $150 a
> piece, which included all necessary hardware, and they look really
> good to boot. While at discount tire getting them installed I
> observed three people crouched around the box the wheels came in
> writing the information down. I chatted with one of the guys and
> they said the shop manager had never felt a wheel so light weight
> and wanted to know what they were and where I got them because he
> wanted a set. I should also mention that the 14" version of these
> wheels weights in at 9.5 lbs for those of you with smaller wheels
> and tires. I requested 40psi, which didn't happen. As I drove home
> the amps had actually increased a tad, but upon checking the tire
> pressure it was less than 30lbs so I pumped them back up and about
> an
> hour later left for work. I'm now down to about 40 amps to hold
> 40mph. Acceleration uses way less power. 150 amps accelerates
> quicker than 200 amps used to! And the car already had alloy
> wheels, which upon lifting them by theirselves it was apparent I
> had saved a lot of rotational mass (I need to weigh the old wheels
> to see just how big of a difference I made, but it feels like about
> half!).
>
> So in short over the last year I've taken the car from 70 amps to
> hold 40mph down to 40 amps to hold the same speed. This is a HUGE
> improvement! At this point my pack is already on it's way out,
> however the range when I get a new pack (probably in another year)
> will be far greater than what it was before. This is nearing almost
> a 50% improvement over how it was when the car first moved under
> it's own power as an electric conversion! Ok so granted that 3/8"
> overall toe out wasn't helping any, but there are things you can to
> to gain efficiency and therefore range.
>
> I'm not 100% sure where I can go from here now. I'm thinking
> other aerodynamic modificaitons are about all I can do. I suppose
> making a belly pan is about all there if left. Anyone else have any
> other ideas?
>
> Here are the wheels:
>
>
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/DisplayWheel.jsp?wheelMake=Kosei&wheelModel=K1+TS&wheelFinish=Silver+Painted
>
> Here's the manufacturers page for the wheels:
> http://www.koseijp.co.jp/engfl/n_p5_k1.htm
> Weight performance
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> The only wheels ligher I've ever found are Volk TE37's at abotu
> $300-$400 a piece! And they aren't $300 a piece lighter either.
>
> It's a totally different car with those wheels, highly
> recommended.
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Aug 2006 at 23:01, Ryan Plut wrote:
> I've read somewhere that you are *never* to store batteries on a concrete
> surface because concrete attracts moisture and will harm the battery.
That's a myth - one which has been debunked before on this list, btw. Check
the archives for more information.
I store batteries on my garage floor with no harm to them. They suffer no
more depreciation there than they would sitting on a shelf.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
The EV list exists to discuss EV topics. It is not intended for discussions
of alternative energy except in its most narrow application to EVs.
Specifically, "free energy" and "over-unity" discussions are not acceptable
contributions to the EV list under any circumstances, by vote of the list
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Please do not respond to this post, and please do not post further material
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Thanks for your cooperation.
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EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:01 PM 18/08/06 -0700, you wrote:
I've read somewhere that you are *never* to store batteries on a concrete
surface because concrete attracts moisture and will harm the battery.
Ryan G. Plut
G'day Ryan, and all
That is something that is unable to be explained, and often declared to be
a myth, yet I have witnessed but not been sure of all the factors. My first
employer operated several radio repeaters on battery power, and he would
never place the batteries on the concrete - always on a piece of wood or
other thermal insulator, as he claimed that he had learned the hard way.
In my experience it seems to only affect wet cell batteries, and then only
if they sit partially charged. A customer (a local council) has a telemetry
system at a small reservoir that has its' battery sitting on the concrete
reservoir edge. When they first installed it the battery sat straight on
the concrete, and every winter (I think over three years) they'd loose at
least one and usually two (good quality deep cycle) batteries. I suggested
that this may be a contributing factor (I was friends with their
maintenance man at the time). The only change they then made was to sit the
battery on a piece of polystyrene insulation, and they now get around 3 to
5 years battery life. Of course, this could be that lots of condensation
was forming on the top of the battery due to the heatsinking effect of
being on concrete, in a high humidity environment alongside the water.
This effect has been tentatively blamed on thermal cycling of low
state-of-charge batteries making the electrolyte stratify (seperate into
layers of different strengths) and the plates that are exposed to very weak
electrolyte "sulphate" with the hard version of sulphation, getting worse
and worse each partial cycle. However, I've yet to see it explained better
than that.
It may of course only be due to condensation forming on the top of the
battery, activating a leakage path through dirt in top of the cells. A
damp, dirty battery has a lot more leakage across the case between the
terminals than a dry, clean battery, so keep the tops clean and don't keep
them in particularly damp locations.
I guess this one should be investigated by "Mythbusters", except they'd
probably get the methodology wrong.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
I had initially planned on putting my batteries below the bed in the Mitsu. A
guy here in town who did this reported having
trouble keeping all his batteries the same temp. He has some on each side of
the driveline, some behind the axle and some under
the hood. So inth einterest of quickly getting on the road I put them in the
bed in an insulated box. I still plan to get them
under the bed. I've figured I can get tham all under the bed with none under
the hood. A little bit of head scratching will
allow me to figure out how to vent the three separate boxes together to
equalize the temps. Once done however I expect handling
to improve dramatically with the center of gravity approaching the level of the
frame, certainly below the top of the tires. A
dual implant and tranny drop would be easy as there is plenty of room under the
hood and the tunnelunder the cab. I think NetGain
could easily adapt that shorty Turbo 400 tailshaft to a WarP9, and there's
plenty of room forward to dual up a set of 9's without
needing the custom siamese treatment. Reversing relays would then be a must.
What kind of truck do you have?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:46 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: RE: What does it take to convert a truck?
>
>
> I have a small truck and am considering it as my second conversion.
> After converting the 300zx to a 9" dc motor and going to the trouble to
> adapt it to the tranny I am, well, a little disappointed. The adaption
> was a lot of work and the motor is in the way of batteries. It is such a
> pain shifting all the time in an EV.
>
> If you don't have the means to make your own adapter and it is already a
> rear wheel drive. I think throwing a dual 8 or dual 9 setup down in the
> tunnel (with a guard and a blower to a air filter, thus pressureized to
> protect from water) allows more room for batteries and an all around
> cleaner installation.
>
> Comparison
> no adapter but new driveline, 2 motors and $1000 in reversing relays.
> possible smaller controller and wires for the same performance on the
> low end.
> possibly more room for batteries and they can go lower
>
>
> Maybe a layer of batteries up front under a second floor making a trunk
> up front and a pair of boxes on either side of the motor/driveline
> under the bed.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was a most excellent interview!!!
I did the TV news clip. I'm working with a writer from a local paper now. I
actually got a shameless plug in on the Tradio
program where I was giving away the ICE from my conversion. When I said I
converted to electric and was giving away the ICE it
launched into about a 3 minute interview from the program host. Nothing like a
little spontaneous EV publicity.
Anyway, this KCMO interview was excellent. Anybody got a copy of the file?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 7:21 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: MAEAA and WKTEA on KCMO public radio
>
>
> Hey all:
> Late Thursday I received a phone call from a local news presentation show on
> our local public radio station asking if
> someone from our club would like to discuss electric vehicles and WKTEC on
> today's program. Two of us immediately
> stepped forward.
> The show can be heard at:
> http://www.kcur.org/UTDarchive.html
> Overall, we feel very good about the presentation.
> Jim Donovan
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
> Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage.
> Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm pleased to announce the critical mass of the Alaska Electric Vehicle
Association. We have enough paid-up members of EAA and
have over 50 interested parties on our e-mail distribution list. I will
proceed now to set up our first meeting and search for a
"juice bar" of our own :-)
Just some side info, some of our members will come to us from the local Alaska
Chapter of the IEEE (myself included). IEEE
Alaska holds monthly membership lunchoens the 3 wednesday every month and
features guest speakers. They've asked me to do a
presentation on EV's for the month of October and I've agreed as long as they
allow me to invite the 50+ members of the Alaska EVA
along for the ride. Most likely this will be the first time the group on the
AkEVA distribution list will get together and I will
use it to promote our first official meeting.
A side note to this, the IEEE International Conference of the Vehicular
Technology Society will be in Anchorage in the fall of
2009. They had contacted me about the possibility of moving it up to 2007 as
their current plans for Baltimore are not working
out so well. We had to decline the request since our IEEE section already
hosts at least 1 and sometimes 2 international
conferences a year. This is a heads up though for anyone who would like to
attend a professional conference that is assured to
attract the top researchers, scientists and business professionals in the field
of vehicular technology. (The added bonus would be
the Alaskan vacation). The members of the conference planning committee also
asked me to submit an article on my truck for their
magazine. Since my truck is nothing particularly special compared to all of
your EV's, I'd like to request that if anyone already
has a comprehensive article about EV's and how we currently make use of
technology to build them ourselves I would gladly pass it
along to that IEEE Societies magazine. The folks from the IEEE VTS seem only
mildly informed about the propulsion side of
"vehicular technology" and I think would welcom the diversity in their
publication. If anyone is interested in being published in
a professional society magazine I would gladly help facilitate this. Maybe
there are some back articles in the CE that would be
worthy of submission.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just stumbled on this.
http://www.darelldd.com/ev/rav_longranger.htm
While I had seen it before, I wasn't aware of how successful it
was. The RAV-EV trailer combo actually got better fuel economy than
the conventional ICE RAV. I also missed the white paper with the low
emission info. I love the backup video.
A pretty awesome bit of engineering, a 20 KW generator trailer at
just 350 pounds.
Food for thought anyone?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ricky,
Another thing to look at, is the overall gear ratio efficiency. I can do a
demo with my EV which weighs 6860 lbs!!!, by moving it while its in first
gear on some what level ground that may have a rough surface like gravel
with the friction of one finger moving over the surface of the accessory
belt drives that come off the pilot shaft of the motor.
On a smooth floor surface, I can move the EV around in my garage by using
this method.
I tested out what the torque would be to move the vehicle in each gear. I
first set a ft lb torque wrench to about 10 ft lbs, and that was too much.
I then use a in.lbs torque and set that to 10 in lbs and that was still too
much.
I than kept decreasing by 1 in.lbs. and finally it read 8 in.lbs. to move a
6860 lbs vehicle in first gear ratio of 3.5:1 times 5.57:1 axle ratio which
results in a 19.495:1 ratio.
Second gear with over all ratio of 13.925:1 resulted in about 12 in.lbs.
The third gear is a 1.0:1 with a overall ratio of 5.57:1 resulted about 25
in.lbs. which is about the same as 2 ft.lbs.
I am running rock hard 2600 lbs load rating tires at 65 PSI with a 0 in. toe
in, that only allows a tire deflection of 3/8 inch in the rears and 1/4 inch
in the fronts. These tires are about 30 inches in diameter mounted on a 3500
lb rated wheel on a 22,000 lb rating axles and bearings.
The maximum tire deflection you want is not to go over the 5%. This means
if the height of the side wall of the tire is 5 inches unload, then should
not go over 5 x .05 = 0.25 or 4.75 inches when the full vehicle load is on
them.
If you have to air them up too much over the maximum rating of the PSI on
the side of the tire, than it may be the wrong tire for this set up.
When shopping for tires, it is best to know what the weight on each wheel of
the EV is. Then get a wheel rating that is at least 125% over that. Also
check out the load and PSI rating on the side of the tires which should be
at least 125% over your actual weight on that wheel.
If I told you what my battery ampere is while I drive 30 mph, you will not
believe me. Some people on this list said there must be a mistake. I have
three battery amp meters, and they all read the same.
My battery ampere is lower than some of the EVs that weigh half my EV
weight. It ranges from 30 to 40 amps!!!!
Some 2nd gear ratios on some vehicles that weigh 3000 lbs or less are about
6.2:1 overall ratio which is a little more than my overall ratio in final
gear.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:18 AM
Subject: Making it more efficient
> Some observations on picking up efficiency with my Saturn SC conversion.
>
> It's a 144 volt pack of Trojan 30XHS batteries, not that much energy on
> board
> Zilla 1K controller (limited to 500 pack murdering battery amps)
> 9" ADC motor
> Stock "performance" manual transmission... performance version has
> higher gear ratios which is more ideal for electric motors
>
> When I first got the car converted it has some no name tires on it. I
> don't do a whole lot of highway cruising with it so my baseline is amps at
> 40mph steady on flat ground int he city. It took about 70 amps to hold
> 40mph initially.
>
> First modification was to get the old horrible rubber off of it and put
> some decent tires with lower rolling resistance characteristics on it, and
> the old tires were in bad shape too. Going to Goodyear Integrity tires in
> 185/60R15's dropped 10 amps now requiring 60 amps to hold 40mph.
>
> Second and third mod's happened at about the same time, I had it
> alligned for 0 toe in and removed the stock wing from the car. I noticed a
> little more from the wing being gone on the highway, but overall these
> dropped the car down to 50 amps.
>
> Fourth and fifth mod occured both pretty recently, but close enough
> together to notice a difference with each. Fourth was playing with the
> brakes. The flexible brake lines looked to be original. These rubber hoses
> will tend to expand with age and not let all the brake fluid go back in to
> the resivor, I replaced all of them and at the same time got the caliper
> rebuild kits for the front disk brakes. This consisted basically of new
> rubber O-rings which help retract the piston from the pads. I only drove
> it some before making modification number 5, but this in itself made
> another good 5 amp difference.
>
> Modification number five happened today, which was installing light
> weight wheels. I found some 15X7" wheels weighing in at only 12.6 lbs! And
> even better they didn't totally break the bank. They are Kosei K1's, tire
> rack sells them and they are about $150 a piece, which included all
> necessary hardware, and they look really good to boot. While at discount
> tire getting them installed I observed three people crouched around the
> box the wheels came in writing the information down. I chatted with one of
> the guys and they said the shop manager had never felt a wheel so light
> weight and wanted to know what they were and where I got them because he
> wanted a set. I should also mention that the 14" version of these wheels
> weights in at 9.5 lbs for those of you with smaller wheels and tires. I
> requested 40psi, which didn't happen. As I drove home the amps had
> actually increased a tad, but upon checking the tire pressure it was less
> than 30lbs so I pumped them back up and about an
> hour later left for work. I'm now down to about 40 amps to hold 40mph.
> Acceleration uses way less power. 150 amps accelerates quicker than 200
> amps used to! And the car already had alloy wheels, which upon lifting
> them by theirselves it was apparent I had saved a lot of rotational mass
> (I need to weigh the old wheels to see just how big of a difference I
> made, but it feels like about half!).
>
> So in short over the last year I've taken the car from 70 amps to hold
> 40mph down to 40 amps to hold the same speed. This is a HUGE improvement!
> At this point my pack is already on it's way out, however the range when I
> get a new pack (probably in another year) will be far greater than what it
> was before. This is nearing almost a 50% improvement over how it was when
> the car first moved under it's own power as an electric conversion! Ok so
> granted that 3/8" overall toe out wasn't helping any, but there are things
> you can to to gain efficiency and therefore range.
>
> I'm not 100% sure where I can go from here now. I'm thinking other
> aerodynamic modificaitons are about all I can do. I suppose making a belly
> pan is about all there if left. Anyone else have any other ideas?
>
> Here are the wheels:
>
> http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/DisplayWheel.jsp?wheelMake=Kosei&wheelModel=K1+TS&wheelFinish=Silver+Painted
>
> Here's the manufacturers page for the wheels:
> http://www.koseijp.co.jp/engfl/n_p5_k1.htm
> Weight performance
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> The only wheels ligher I've ever found are Volk TE37's at abotu
> $300-$400 a piece! And they aren't $300 a piece lighter either.
>
> It's a totally different car with those wheels, highly recommended.
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
> countries) for 2ยข/min or less.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By the way, regarding the Dell laptop batteries: the failures are due to
wiring problems. A short occurs inside the battery pack housing. Yes, the
batteries burn, but the cause is faulty wiring.
Also, not all lithium batteries are a fire hazzard when shorted.
http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/safety.html
More Also, Gas cars can sit in the driveway undisturbed and catch fire. I
have a friend who had that very experience. It was due to falting wiring.
Also see above.
Ken
In a message dated 8/18/2006 10:25:58 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yes, it could be. Gasoline doesn't catch fire while sitting in the driveway,
not being tampered with. <g> Some lithiums have done *exactly* that... no
damage, no external source... whoosh, overheating, taking out the pile.
BTW, this was a noted problem before the recall of these laptops... and had
nothing to do with them. It was an FAA report, as reported by PBS, wondering
about the safety of these batts on commercial airlines. I'm hoping someone
will report which batts (makes and so forth) that are causing these fires.
*Usually* in the EV world, it's been a fire when the rig was left on the
charger too long.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium Safety
> Couldn't be any worse than gasoline, eh?
> ;-)
> Andrew
>
> Edward Ang wrote:
> >
> > If they are recalling them because they might catch fire, do you
> > really want them in your car or any device?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, even with dual 9" motors, accelerating something that weighs
6000 lbs (or more), using just a direct drive may give unsatisfactory
results.
It's possible if you do a truck with a granny gear that you might even be
able to do a single motor. My little Courier had a very low first gear.
That truck could climb anything. I was wondering where the weight in
American trucks is? Are there truck "kits" that get rid of the weight of
the cab? Do wheels drivetrain and frame really weigh that much? Lawrence
Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any Electric is welcome here. Good luck. Seems you have found your
waterline length speed. Keep it there or below and you'll have long run
times. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
> Well, finally got that EV grin! (sorta)
>
> It's a 12 foot wooden pram I just finished building - design was
> modified for the intent of electric drive. DF planking, Maple frame,
> epoxy coated, no fiberglass. It's just under 140 lbs empty, yet is rated
> for 4 adults + gear (900 lbs) - when done right, wood is powerfully
> strong stuff! It's powered by a 40lb trolling motor with an over-sized
> prop. Battery is a 110AH Exide flooded deep cycle, 68lbs. Cruises along
> nicely at 5-6 knots with two aboard using around 30 amps. Had it on full
> power for 1 hour and 20 odd minutes so far, battery should do twice that
> easy ;)
>
> Going to up the motors to a dual submerged setup with an outboard tiller
> soon, and add one more bat for a 24V setup (motors in series, Curtis
> perhaps? or should I run two 12V controllers + motors side-by-side?).
> The Datsun Roadster is still chilling in the backyard, all the rust has
> been exorcised and it's waiting for paint. But now it's time to fish!
>
> I noticed that the difference between ICE and electric seems much more
> striking on a boat, since there is little noise around you to begin
> with. Some states are starting "financial incentives" for electric only
> drive watercraft (or so I've heard).
>
> I know this is a primarily an auto & cycle group, but had to share this
> grin with someone ;)
>
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If they put up the money for an ad in the Economist I'm at least willing to
give them a chance. What harm will it do? If they are full of it then it
will cement your idea that it is bogus. If it works so much better for the
world. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:15 AM
Subject: RE: Steorn Challenge
> This smells and I'll tell you why. It is clear these folks are not
presenting to you some basic concepts. They claim in the first paragraph to
have technology that is over 100% efficient which they would have a hard
time proving. They do however claim further down that the technology has a
Coefficient Of Performance (C.O.P.) greater than 1 (they say 100%, but
technically its the same). Those who do serious research in this field
however refer to it as C.O.P.>1. Now this in itself IS actually possible.
Heat pumps, solar panels and wind turbines are all C.O.P.>1 devices. They
will actually produce more energy in their lifetime that it took to make
them. None of them violate the laws of physics and none of the Zero Point
Energy researchers claim to. Their second claim can be proven well enough
by the above examples. The third however "There is no identifiable
environmental source of the energy" is the clincher. The above examples
while not over 100% efficient derive t!
> heir energy from the environment. While Zero Point Energy may exist and
there may be a way to harvest it has to come from somewhere. Their 3rd
claim pretty much invalidates the credibility of their work. I would not
give them any personal information in hopes you will find a new way to power
your electric vehicles. They have no details or specifics of their
technology to critique and I would venture to guess that this thread will
not be allowed any further by the moderators.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Thomas Waltz
> > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 10:40 PM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Steorn Challenge
> >
> >
> > http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx
> > Steorn develops free energy technology and issues challenge to the
global scientific community
> >snip<
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Steve;
Thanks for the FLA EV update. Hows the conversion biz doing?
Hi Bob and all , The conversion Biz and doing better all the time, Still
dosn't compare to the lawn biz money wise but looking better all the time. I
just sold and delivered my porsche 924 for $17,500 , and when I add up all
the cost I may have made some money . Going to spend it all on EV parts ,
:-) ,
I saw that
nice shop place you had just lined up. Bettya busy over there?
Ya I am so happy with the shop in the woods , to bad a housing development
is got there eyes on it . just got to enjoy it while I can.
I was showing
the vids at our Club meeting yesterday. The mower, with as much motor and
voltage than my current EV , a Nissan Sentra, I'm rebuilding.
The EV mower is still a blast to run , and the 120v 400 amp curtis is just
the right size for a lawn mower :-) I've enjoyed this summer using it ,
Just like when you start driving your conversion to work each day , the
drive to work becomes a fun time , and somthing you look forward to .
Did that guy
that took a spin in the "Go Fast" truk buy and get the car of his
dreams?
It is so close to done , and now with the porsche gone I'll be going at it
hard , I've driven it around and it is fast , 300v 1k , that 9" inplus motor
it just right for front wheel drive cars ,
That Dixie Chopper blew them ALL away! I could mow my lawn in about
20 minutes, EVen the damn rocks!Must be your silly season for mowing!
Ya , and there have been many 10 charges a day days , I put some heavyer
cables and have seen 275 amp going into them when I plug it in for charging
. I'm thinking these orbital like the heavy charge.
I just bought a 97 Sentra at my friendly local junkyard. The guyz there
were interested in my projects.
Was there ever a time in your EV history where people where so intrested?
You have some deep roots , :-)
Yes, check out THIS one. I did, a
silver Sentra up on the wrack. NO rot! Clean upolstery. Wouldya take out
the
dead engine, save the clutch an' flywheel, pull the gas tank? Oh, yeah,
deliver it to me, in Killingworth, too?Leave the AC stuff, too.All for 500
bux. Not bad.
Ya , the problem is I can't pass up a deal like that , and got a yard full ,
just waiting , but then there's alway a better one come along .
.Seems that people who do
conversions are enjoying a brisk biz? I feel that I can sell any that I
can
do. Check back with me on the Sentra, when I get it going.not to mention
the
Jetta, Sundance, and the OTHER Sentra.
Yep , Its going to be hard for me to give up my lawn biz but so much is
happening I can't do both. I've been doing a lot of 10 to 2 am's at the shop
, get 4 hours in a day some how but I'm still behind with peoples cars . .
Was thinking of trying to double my output and (Gasp) HIRE somebody to
help do conversions, right here at my spacious place.
Help is easy to find , for the EV's as people just want to be a part of it .
Thing is you got to watch em as its easy for them to mess something up , "
Don't stand on the green box !" =8-0 .
Or come an' help do
yours, while having a place to stay WHILE doing it.Save a buk by doing
your
own wrenching.And live happily EVer after with your own EV.
I mention these
thoughts to EVerybody else out there and Steve, too as you are away ahead
of
me on this.
Bob , you where part of the city car program , cutting edge at that time :-)
, I didn't come along till after the Crutis controller was around . Funny
you can tell how long sombody has been into EV's by the controllers they
have had .
Life, the more you enjoy it the faster it goes .
Steve Clunn
My two cars worth.
]
Bob
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And how is that measured ? Voltage ?
I have a 48 volt 220 ahr pack
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd
> recommend charging any time you've used 20% or more of your battery's
> energy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It *used* to be true, when battery cases were made differently.
- Arthur
On Sat, 2006-08-19 at 03:59 -0400, David Roden wrote:
> On 18 Aug 2006 at 23:01, Ryan Plut wrote:
>
> > I've read somewhere that you are *never* to store batteries on a concrete
> > surface because concrete attracts moisture and will harm the battery.
>
> That's a myth - one which has been debunked before on this list, btw. Check
> the archives for more information.
>
> I store batteries on my garage floor with no harm to them. They suffer no
> more depreciation there than they would sitting on a shelf.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Ok
Folks I am not sure who is arguing with Who on this thread..
It looks Like Nick and ...
Who Else, but....
I have a LOT Of points that I can enlighten or dissagree with. And since
it's me that is making the item under argument.....
Lets see if I can extract the line items that may or may not be the way I
see it.
Yes my chargers are more efficient at higher voltages... But we are talking
a few percents here..like %5.
Cost of power is not the savings at high power charge levels..Ok more than a
120VAC 15 amp outlet can provide. Time is, and the ability to get back on
the road without
Hydro carbons burned.
Charge it over night.. is a old and tired EV line... Made moot with real
decent power chargers...
"Charge it over night" means I have not done my Job.
I love it when folks use this line.. Most of us EVers.. don't have that much
patience...Most of the guys claiming over night is good enough...
have something lacking.....Like a kick ass charger.
Hey even when I was not making 5kw+ boxes.. my most insulting job was
waiting for the darn charger to stuff enough Juice into my EV to get home.
Long cold nights at EV Northwest in the late 90s...kind made PFC chargers
happen.
Thing is.. everbody things over night is fast enough.... until they do it..
and then faster is better.
Trust me on this... and the 300 plus folks that have paid me bucks to solve
that problem.
Speed is nice, It is not needed. But then again.. not many of us relish a
Pinto..for speed and power.
And yes we all know a PFC charger can run on 120 VAC and not blow a 15 amp
breaker, So I got slow... if that's all you can find for it.
Forget random timers. Pick the lowest TOU point and suck as much as you can
before the rates climb in the morning peak.
The limits here are not getting a Peaking demand charge... aka Stay under
about 50Kw of draw.
I know.... not many of us have that problem do we??
Charge it fast and promtly, equalize... take care of EV state of charge
house chores...go to sleep. In cold weather.. maybe even a harder charge, as
close to the time of use as possible for a bit of added heat in the pack.
Power company feed back... Yes this is the Big thing we will need when we or
a fleet of EVs need to get filled up. We need to know almost real time if
NOW would be the best time to dump a 100 to 500Kw fleet sized charge load on
the grid.. If it is not a good time...what's the cost penalty??? I think
this should be handled by the power company.. Card swipe/. credit card point
of sale equipment,
you get to Buy power.. and see the Cheap rates and the expensive and make
the desicion weather Now is NOT the best time or we buy enough to get home..
and wait for the peaking load to pass.
Neat concept... there's a Billion Bucks out there in inventing this idea and
implimenting it.
Microsoft may be a nice company to donate a few Kw of power..to the SEVA
club, but when Half the Seattle fleet wants to charge up to go home for the
day... Even Bill Gates will notice the cashflow.
Drive home or the server farm... Hummm lets see....???
Switch for current control??? Umm that's what the Big Black knob is for...
fully adjustable And the new Grid meter feature.... It's trick..Wayland
wants one.. Need I say more??
There are two in existance right now.. MINE, and the one that Steve Johnson
just bought through EV source's Ryan Bohm.
We have sheet metal for 23 more.. bring on the orders!!!
Oh Lithium... clear for the future.. and HOW many on road EVs have
Lithium??? how long has A123 been shipping cells???
I love the product Would kill for more... and am doing design work with
them.. But....10 year life span when they have only been around for 1 year..
Immortal batteries... God I hope so....
But..hey time will tell.
Right now about half the public would run for the hills if they knew a Ev
had 500 Dell type packs of Lithium cells on board... this is not a good
thing this week.
I have folks asking if Goldie has Dell cells. In jest... I hope.
Lithium is the future of stored energy for the short term..say 5 years..
Ultra caps are getting there.. for those big amps for a couple of seconds.
NOT even close to the stored Kwhrs that we need.
two powers of magnitude need to be found. Remember here.... we are competing
with 15 Gallons of Gasoline or 24 gallons of Diesel. That's a LOT Of Kwhr!!
Ultracaps will take over the Hybrid packs and soon. But for range it's going
to be metal chemical reaction...For a long time!!!
What Li does for use right now is store enough kwhr to get up to a 10 gallon
tank of HC??? This is the big break through we needed... lets do the best we
can about getting it to the people.
It will change the way Hybrids and medium range EVs get the job done. Long
range EVs are possible.. They were not before.
We all thought Ultra caps were the next best thing.. then the current crop
of Killer Lithium showed up... We are still riding that wave.
Caps can get Millions of cycles.. yea.. last for Ever Yea.. I doubt
it...Ever is a long time... most likely they will die from miss use or sub
system failure.
There is hope here, But the last 10 years have brought painfull advances...
and still not enough stored watts to drive around the block with.
Hey level 2 charging??? nice??? damn near required when you have 45Kwhr to
fill up, Even over night
Now try 100Kw and less than a hour to fill it up... Now you get the point
about Fast charging. These are refrigerator sized dispensing units.... Big
but...kinda close to a Gas Pump in size...
Evs with a Sub 60 mile range ..non starter..please!.... we have 60 mile
range..on lead Acid... oh now you want 100 miles, now you have 200.. and oh
no now you need 400 miles..
Just keep raising the bar.. with a 10 mile range..most Evs are quite
usefull. You just have to change your ideas about getting around. Clearly a
10 mile range is not for a long haul salesmen.
It's great for getting from here to the Ferry dock and back. Exactly what it
was designed for.
This arguemnt is lame since everytime we make a quantum jump ahead.. O gee I
need double that range...Stow it...
Get your butt out of that EV and plug it in!!! That's all the difference it
takes.
Maybe off of 120 Vac.. better get a Double tall Mocha and a good thick
newpaper.
> Sure, fast charging is a huge benefit. But is not needed on a PHEV.
>
> Plus, the fast charging approach to a long range EV seems suboptimal.
>
Sub optimal??? a long range EV will need ultra high charge levels, to get
the 10s or even 100s of Kwhr on board in less than a weeks's time.
Not needed on a PHEV....but definatley wanted... and craved... once you have
a running PHEV system.
Sure... 1800 watts and all night... or 7200 watts during lunch break.
Or 12.5 Kw and you get to drive the afternoon shift Gasless. As the state of
New York wants.
Come on... faster is better when you are doing a job with the PHEV, not just
playing with it.
Lead now.. saves gas in the summer and fall of 2006. Lithium.. when they get
here... and that's gonna be next summer or sooner.
At a price of $1 a watt hour.
PHEV kits are looking to be about 8 to 15 Kwhr of stored energy. You folks
to do the math.
> > >>Not build some Tin can that barley gets the job done over night.
> > >
> > >It seems like (minus the tin can part) a charger that just gets the
> > >job done
> > >overnight is exactly what you want for a PHEV, right?
> >
If that is your tight design point ...you are right on.
Any EV is limited to how fast you can charge it...
That EV Grin is better played many times, than once a day.
So.. in my case.. "just gets the job done" is NOT a operational success.
You have to ask what the customer wants....not what you thing he does.
That's the fail point... it's User defined..
My users want more... to the point that they CAN remove the need for Fuel.
The best Plug in Hybrid kit..gets about 27 miles from a pack of Valence
batteries.... at over a Buck watt.
Ryan and I will get that today with 3 charge cycles and 20 cent a watthour
lead, that cost less than a 1000 to replace.
If we had all day to do runs...and we might.... I can log 100 miles on a
lead acid kit.
And nobody can do that right now even with Lithium.
Now we might con a set of Valence 24 off a buddy.. and then get to some real
miles.. with Both Range and a fast charger....But then we are just looking
for bragging rights.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
PiPrius kit maker..
And PieScape Kit maker. Pun inteneded.....
I Logged on to find a Escape Nav Unit and that high power battery Cables....
for my first hack on Sage....My Ti Green Escape. It's been a month on the
warrentee..time to get some homework done.
Scrapping the dialog for list bandwidth savings.
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