EV Digest 5774
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: WKTEC / electric high way , and Cottage Industries Inc.MORE!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Which lug where?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Batteries on concrete, was: Re: Optima YTs wanted in Seattle
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Longer Range EV ideas?
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Generator Trailer
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY
state fleet.
by "David J. Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Optima YTs wanted in Seattle
by Jim Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Generator Trailer
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: What does it take to convert a truck?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What does it take to convert a truck
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) OT, 'Goning postal' - 20 year anniversary
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Tell me about sag
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: DOD v pack life
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV digest 5766
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: WKTEC / electric high way , and Cottage Industries Inc.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Hi Steve;
> >
> > Thanks for the FLA EV update. Hows the conversion biz doing?
>
> Hi Bob and all , The conversion Biz and doing better all the time, Still
> dosn't compare to the lawn biz money wise but looking better all the time.
I
> just sold and delivered my porsche 924 for $17,500 , and when I add up all
> the cost I may have made some money . Going to spend it all on EV parts ,
> :-) ,
> Hi Steve an' EVerybody;;
Great tohear that an EV outfit is doing well!! As well as you can be
expected. Feel that it is a growth industry? Ill tell ya when , and IF I
have something to sell. I just had a couple of guyz over yesterday, to check
out the hardware I have, and just talk. It is SO gradifying to help guyz
with BASIC struff. Ya know one of the BIG questions he hasd was cable
length? Or that ALL the power cables had to be the same length?He saw all my
battery to battery ones are, Well, Duh! ALLthe same length. Well, they LOOK
neater that way, and at the price of cable nowadaze, ya got to!Silly? yeaH1
But this is why as Friends don't let Friends, just, Gasp! Go it alone, this
is why were here!After reasuring him that the power cables are made to tie
in ALL the batteries in series, all around the car. Just as long as the
cables are 2 ought and the terminals crimped or soldered right.These guyz
are doing stuff right, using a Ranger Chassis and putting a retro Ford 38
Roadster 'glas body on it. it is a regular kit car thing. Sorta like the
University of Maine's Solar or was it Polar Bear Tour De Sol offering a few
years ago.Debating going with a Warp 11 motor, direct drive, or a AC system,
from Victor??When ya figure in the reverse relays AND the 11 motor, you are
getting up into AC pricewise. The Regen is nice, but the DC's tiresmoking
stuff, sheer POWER is hard to pass up.He said to me" What would YOU do, if
money wasn't an object"? Well. Ha Ha Never been in that situation, in my
life or antisipated it. So never gave it any thoughtBuy a Tesla<g>! And be
done with it?A RAV-4 for a beast of burden, A Learjet to do NEDRA stuff.
EVen afford lessons so I could drive it myself. Better yet my own TRAIN, I
could come by asnd pickup the racers to get about the country. You would
hafta see my carpetted baggage cars, for THE cars! A pair of EMD E -8's and
a string of Hell, I would build a nice airconditioned factory, hire some
guyz and build the Freedon EV. AND the Sunrise. I would be offering jobs on
here to do stuff. Having rolling Freedoms this year. Sigh!
OK back to reality.
> I saw that
> > nice shop place you had just lined up. Bettya busy over there?
>
> Ya I am so happy with the shop in the woods , to bad a housing development
> is got there eyes on it . just got to enjoy it while I can.
> Yes! Sigh! jJust about ALL of above sea leval land in FLA is being carved
up into building lots. Whatthehell? It's ALL gunna be underwater in a few
years, as the icecaps melt.They are trying to sell FLA land up here on the
radio in Highlands County, the most godforsakin land in FLA, Seebring? Home
of the Citicar, and 95 degreez and 95 humidy EVERY Damn day! Steve, we have
lottsa lawns to mow, and snow to plow in the winter, If ya wanna be above
sea leval in a few<g>?
> I was showing
> > the vids at our Club meeting yesterday. The mower, with as much motor
and
> > voltage than my current EV , a Nissan Sentra, I'm rebuilding.
>
> The EV mower is still a blast to run , and the 120v 400 amp curtis is just
> the right size for a lawn mower :-) I've enjoyed this summer using it ,
> Just like when you start driving your conversion to work each day , the
> drive to work becomes a fun time , and somthing you look forward to .
> You go along with Plasna Boy on that HE would consider a Cursit a good
Mower controller, but not enough amps for a road car!
> Did that guy
> > that took a spin in the "Go Fast" truk buy and get the car of his
> > dreams?
>
> It is so close to done , and now with the porsche gone I'll be going at it
> hard , I've driven it around and it is fast , 300v 1k , that 9" inplus
motor
> it just right for front wheel drive cars ,
>
So nice to be 28 and be able to put in 26 hours a day into building stuff!
> That Dixie Chopper blew them ALL away! I could mow my lawn in about
> > 20 minutes, EVen the damn rocks!Must be your silly season for mowing!
> >
> Ya , and there have been many 10 charges a day days , I put some heavyer
> cables and have seen 275 amp going into them when I plug it in for
charging
> . I'm thinking these orbital like the heavy charge.
I think you are on to something there. Batteries, like some people I
know<g>! Thrive on hard work!Keeps the cobwebs from forming on the plates?
>
Guess you could hire help to do the mowing, but you would spend all your
time fixing the electric stuff, probably only YOU can make work, so
efficiently??!!
> > I just bought a 97 Sentra at my friendly local junkyard. The guyz
there
> > were interested in my projects.
>
> Was there ever a time in your EV history where people where so intrested?
> You have some deep roots , :-)
>
No, You are right. NEVER been better. People are getting out and seeing
the century's most important movies, an" Inconvenient Truth" AND "WKtEC."
Common people, and there is a hellova lot of us, are talking and starting to
DO something. By looking into EV's and working toward Regeme
Change,peacefully, at the voting booth, BEFORE it becomes shotguns ansd
automatic weapons.Too OT now.
>
Yes, check out THIS one. I did, a
> > silver Sentra up on the wrack. NO rot! Clean upolstery. Wouldya take out
> > the
> > dead engine, save the clutch an' flywheel, pull the gas tank? Oh, yeah,
> > deliver it to me, in Killingworth, too?Leave the AC stuff, too.All for
500
> > bux. Not bad.
>
> Ya , the problem is I can't pass up a deal like that , and got a yard full
,
> just waiting , but then there's alway a better one come along .
> I know THAT feeling! Trying to be more picky, now!
> .Seems that people who do
> > conversions are enjoying a brisk biz? I feel that I can sell any that I
> > can
> > do. Check back with me on the Sentra, when I get it going.not to mention
> > the
> > Jetta, Sundance, and the OTHER Sentra.
> >
> Yep , Its going to be hard for me to give up my lawn biz but so much is
> happening I can't do both. I've been doing a lot of 10 to 2 am's at the
shop
> , get 4 hours in a day some how but I'm still behind with peoples cars . .
>
> > Was thinking of trying to double my output and (Gasp) HIRE somebody
to
> > help do conversions, right here at my spacious place.
>
> Help is easy to find , for the EV's as people just want to be a part of it
.
> Thing is you got to watch em as its easy for them to mess something up , "
> Don't stand on the green box !" =8-0 .
>
help MAY be easy to find? Well, as you say;" DON"T hook the cable to
BOTH the posts on that battery!!!"You're gunna get a Short Circus!
GOOD help would be a challange.
But there ARE alotta bright kindly folks out there. FINDING them, is
the trick. I feel that I have "All the ingredients" as Stop and Shop
Stupermarkets ads say. Putting it together, making it work is the trick.
> Or come an' help do
> > yours, while having a place to stay WHILE doing it.Save a buk by doing
> > your
> > own wrenching.And live happily EVer after with your own EV.
>
> I mention these
> > thoughts to EVerybody else out there and Steve, too as you are away
ahead
> > of
> > me on this.
> >
> Bob , you where part of the city car program , cutting edge at that time
:-)
Yeah! Scary, that that that WAS cutting edge. We have come along way,
guyz!
> , I didn't come along till after the Crutis controller was around . Funny
> you can tell how long sombody has been into EV's by the controllers they
> have had .
Started with contacter controllers! Or a allagater clip on the battery
post!As a kid: PLUGITIN and hang on!!LOOOONG 'stench chords around the yard
and electric Radio Flyers!'Stench Chords not in jest! They DID in awile!
> Life, the more you enjoy it the faster it goes .
BOY ! You got that right! I have flown through my first year of
retirement. Am on hold for my first Grandkid, due yesterday. Hell, we can't
EVen run TRAINS on time, and they call delivery dates?Ha Ha. We KNOW it is a
boy, though. They check the plumbing ,BEFORE birth with ultrasound. Takes
the sport out of it, like using turn signals!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
> I removed my Comuta Van motor... did not find the cable lug labels
> until after I took the motor crown off... It has A1, A2, S1 & S2.
> The cap has the A1 and A2 terminal lugs. The cap can be aligned so
> that A1 aligns with either S1 or S2 on the motor body. I need to
> know before I hook up all the cables.
The CitiCars, ComutaCars, and ComutaVans are notorious for all being
built differently. Here's how my ComutaVan was wired:
A1 to pack negative (thru the 0.1 ohm starting resistor with
contactor K3 in parallel, the shunt, and 400amp fuse).
A2 to Emergency disconnect switch K1
S1 to other side of Emergency disconnect switch K1
S2 to pack positive (thru contactor K2, and series/parallel
contactor K4).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I've read somewhere that you are *never* to store batteries on a concrete
>surface because concrete attracts moisture and will harm the battery.
http://www.yuasabattery.com/faqs.asp?action=1&id=20
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The aerodynamic drag is a huge barrier to get 125 mile range.
To seat 4 people and minimize drag, I would use a long narrow car that
seats 4 people one behind the next,
with a teardrop shaped body.
According to http://www.bgsoflex.com/aero.html a car weighing 5000 lbs
at 60mph with a CD 0.28
and frontal area 20 sq ft. would require 19hp or 14kwatts. If you drive
2 hours that is 28kwh.
If you assume 80% DOD and 70% efficiency then you need a lead acid
battery pack that is 50kwh.
[using 26 group31 12v agms you could get 34kwh and add 1900 pounds to
the car]
The body design described above may be able to cut the losses in half,
if you are very careful
and reach your design goals.
I would be interested in hearing from people that are getting long range
with under 200wh/mile.
-Robert Baertsch
Mike Chancey wrote:
Hi folks,
After reading about folks who drive the Toyota RAV-EVs, I have been
wondering how one could match or at least approach that kind of
performance with a home conversion. Not a converted RAV, just
something to match its functionality. Could an EV conversion be built
that meets the following:
Range: 125 miles useable at 60-70 mph
Seating capacity 4 adults in comfort (probably requires each has their
own door)
Climate controlled, both air conditioning and heating
Power steering
Power brakes
Could it be done for say $25,000 plus the donor chassis? What would
it look like? What would you build? Thoughts?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greeting fellow EVers,
I've been playing with the idea of a generator trailer
for a little while now. I have the trailer, yes that
was the easy part. I am having great troubles finding
an affordable (<$1000) diesel/Bio diesel generator or
ever just the engine and I can attach the gen head
later. I didn't go through all this trouble just to
burn gas :p
I'm guessing I need 10-15KW. any suggestions? how are
the rest of you doing this?
thank you for your input!
Brian
81'Bradley GTII
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really do not think you are saving any power save a few % at most.
Remember power = Volts * Amps. * Time. If you cut your time in half with
220V but use 220V instead of 110V then the equation remains the same. 8
hours at 110V is the same power as 4 hours at 220V.
Now charging in less time is a big benefit but you will not be saving money.
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted
for NY state fleet.
Disclaimer: IANABCE (I Am Not A Battery Chemistry Expert).
On Aug 18, 2006, at 3:02 PM, Nick Austin wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 01:33:58PM -0700, Rich Rudman wrote:
>> Yea.. all the other PHEV kits want 1800 watt chargers.
>
> So your approach seems reasonable as long as you can still charge on
> 110v.
> It probably won't matter if you do that, right?
>
> On the other hand, you might want to have a high speed, low speed
> switch for
> people that choose to run on 220. This is to avoid making a new draw
> spike
> right at the beginning of off peak hours :)
>
> If all the PHEVs charge at 15KW for 20 mins, and you make the power
> company
> spin up a bunch of output, then you draw nothing wasting the rest of
> the
> output of base load plants the rest of the night. This does not make
> sense.
Isn't it more efficient to charge at 220v? It takes less than half the
time to charge the pack than if you used 110v, so you're saving power
overall. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Putting a random timer (like a turn-on-the-lights security timer) on
the 220v feed to the charger would help smooth out the load, but then
so would the random arrival times of people coming home.
Or cities could legislate EV charging like some of them legislate
watering your lawn. Even-numbered houses can plug in between 4pm and
8pm, odd-numbered houses can plug in between 8pm and midnight. Or the
city could distribute "EV charging terminals" that either activate at a
certain time, or can be remotely activated by the power company to
level out the demand. In the second case I'd want some sort of
"committed minutes of power" agreement that gives a minimum number of
minutes of power per night, like leased-line providers sell "committed
information rate" that gives a minimum number of bits per second.
> It seems like level II charging a PHEV that can only do ~45MPH in pure
> EV mode
> does not buy you that much.
>
> A next gen, truly gas optional PHEV would have far more use for level
> II
> charging.
>
> Isn't that true?
As I understand it, Rich's PiPrius system uses the PFC-40 not only to
charge the add-on lead-acid pack from the wall plug, but also to charge
the built-in NiMH Prius pack from the lead-acid pack while driving.
That's why it needs to be a high-power charger, so that the NiMH pack
can get replenished at a rate similar to to how fast power is drawn out
of it while driving (and hopefully keep the gas engine from starting
up). As Rich said, fast charging from the wall plug is just a bonus.
>> Plus we all have that ...DELL laptop NIGHTMARE..to deal with as far
>> as a
>> Lithium based Plug in pack is concerned...
>
> Lithium seems like the clear future for EVs right?
Maybe, maybe not. For sure, it's too expensive for ME right now, and
into the foreseeable future. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on
ultracapacitors instead of lithium as the technology we'll all be using
in ten years. Ultracaps can live for hundreds of thousands of cycles.
Lithium batteries seem to have a shelf life, which means they only last
a certain time no matter how you treat them. Ultracaps have an energy
density problem, but perhaps nanotechnology will fix that.
Or perhaps someone will fix the lithium shelf life problem. Or perhaps
some other unforseen development will occur making everything else
obsolete, like a Mr. Fusion reactor that runs on banana peels and beer.
> Seems like we should be working to counter these arguments, by
> switching
> to an inherently safe Li chemistry.
There are other people working on the chemistry problems. Rich has
chosen to tackle the fast-charge issue, which a lot of us think is the
best way to make a long-range EV. It's also necessary for an EV with a
large lithium pack, unless you want to charge for as many hours as
you've been driving.
The more approaches we try, the more likely we'll find one or more good
answers.
> Having a pack that you never have to replace is a pretty nice perk.
Having a pricey pack that will start saving me money in ten years,
MAYBE, is not a perk, it's an expensive gamble. Some people have been
taking that gamble, and hooray for them - we need the pioneers to go
out and gather this data for us. People like Bill Dube' and Victor
Tikhonov and John Lussmeyer and the other people who have put lithium
packs in their vehicles, even though (or because!) there's not a lot of
data on them yet. God bless 'em, but I'm more of a settler than a
pioneer. I don't want to spend mucho bucks on a lithium pack until it
comes with a guarantee.
And about that "never" part. EVs last a ridiculously long time
compared to ICEs, basically until the frame rusts away or they get
totalled in a wreck, because they're so mechanically simple. The
electronics might get upgraded, the battery pack gets replaced, but the
mechanical parts of the car can run for many decades with only minor
maintenance. The only energy storage technology I know about right now
that has the potential to last as long as the car would be
ultracapacitors.
>> All along I have had no real interest in small cheap chargers...
>
> What makes a high power charger expensive?
>
> Is a high quality low power charger just as expensive?
> If it is, then I agree with you 100%
Someone else will need to explain this one, like Lee Hart.
>> Not build some Tin can that barley gets the job done over night.
>
> It seems like (minus the tin can part) a charger that just gets the
> job done
> overnight is exactly what you want for a PHEV, right?
Maybe, maybe not. If you never get out of range of your garage, then a
slow charger will do the trick. But let's say your battery pack is
exhausted and you're away from home. If you have a fast charger on
board, you have the choice of filling up again with electrons instead
of using gas. Cool!
This is the same argument for fast charging non-hybrid EVs. The faster
and more convenient it is to charge your EV, the smaller and lighter
and less expensive your pack needs to be.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles think of how foolish that sounds...
10 motors.. just tp prove a point..
Those motors now cost a small fortue.
The general idea is 48 volts and less than about 1000 amps is not enough
power to keep up with traffic in normal driving.
Sure a 12 volt motor running on 48 volts and 2000 amp..OK...Sure
But the monster cable size the huge pack of batteries to keep those amps
flowing..is just not practical.
Anything can be done with low volts and big amps..it's just NOT practcal.
The engineering gets to be a bitch.
Come on now Myles.. I started with a 28 volt stater and 2500 amps of
controller and a field controller added.
I know what this takes and that you can do it.
I just don't recomend that other folks follow Madman's brutal learning
curve.. I learned a lot... and others should not have to.
Given the 48 volts and a long run..I bet Dave could find way to get that
thing over 100 mph....and we will in the quater mile.. and soon, and at over
120 volts actual battery voltage... he will succede. I don't bet that Dave
can do most anything.. given time and some free parts.
Remember I try to HELP Dave....
I bet that a pair of 8s and a 2K Zilla and 240 volts, and he would humiliate
Wayland...I am not sure I would want to drive that thing at a Buck 10...or
that we would let him....
NHRA would then take him out the arguement.. on roll cage and other drive
train saftey issues.
Hint Dave..get those chain gards and Brush scatter shields inplace...The
back of that EV is intimidating... too many chains and things to go really
wrong...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Folks...didn't the EV list warn about doing a on road EV with too little
> > power??
> > 48 volts is barley enough to stay at 50 mph.
>
> That's a sweeping generalization---or are you limiting yourself to series
> wounds?
> I doubt that Dave Cloud's 8-ETEK-driven, 96v GEO, which did some 96mph in
> the quarter, would have a top speed of less than 50mph if driven at 48v.
>
> Records and rules are still there to be broken.
>
> -Myles
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Any Electric is welcome here. Good luck. Seems you have found your
waterline length speed. Keep it there or below and you'll have long run
times. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
Well, finally got that EV grin! (sorta)
It's a 12 foot wooden pram I just finished building - design was
modified for the intent of electric drive. DF planking, Maple frame,
epoxy coated, no fiberglass. It's just under 140 lbs empty, yet is rated
for 4 adults + gear (900 lbs) - when done right, wood is powerfully
strong stuff! It's powered by a 40lb trolling motor with an over-sized
prop. Battery is a 110AH Exide flooded deep cycle, 68lbs. Cruises along
nicely at 5-6 knots with two aboard using around 30 amps. Had it on full
power for 1 hour and 20 odd minutes so far, battery should do twice that
easy ;)
LOL - took a couple days of measuring, looking up formulas, and
researching online, so I darn well better. The motor + prop was picked
to hopefully match this hull, and it looks like I got lucky this time.
I was inspired originally by some other lake regulars (Mayfield Lake)
that had been trying to run small production fiberglass and metal
rowboats/jonboats/dinghies with just a large trolling motor. This lake
sees chop over 6" on a regular basis due to it's topography (basically
a flooded canyon). They had little success, with the boats going 2
knots top, and heavy amperage draws (warm wires). This didn't seem right
to me, since in the water electric rules the efficiency roost at low
speeds according to the math - a 300 to 400 Watt (1/2HP) electric drive
typically generates around 40 ft/lbs of thrust, a typical 5HP ICE
outboard generates around 150ft/lbs of thrust.
Having a hull designed to go a particular speed with minimum thrust is
definitely the way to go, given that this family of vehicles is *very*
weight sensitive. The down side is that you go 5-6 knots, or plane. It's
a combination hull, and the transition from displacement (in the water)
to planing (on top of the water) is pretty abrupt. Going from 6 knots to
7 knots should take around double the power, and that curve gets much
worse until you hit plane. The dual motor setup will hopefully run at
7.5 knots, since that is just under the speed limit in the busier
boating lanes on this lake. But after that (about 4HP), a tiny increase
in power gets you gobs of extra speed.
The *prevailing* wisdom is that it's impractical to make an
electric-driven true planing hull. But if you could make it work, the
speed and efficiency available to you would be worthy of much
drooling... I wish the fellow trying to electrify a jet ski the best of
luck! Those darn things are the thorn in every fisherman's side, hear
'em over 1/2 mile away on the lake :-(
Shut them all up and my blood pressure will drop a couple of PSI,
permanently.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
Can you put some pics on evforge? I for one would love to see what
you did.
--- "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, finally got that EV grin! (sorta)
It's a 12 foot wooden pram I just finished building - design was
modified for the intent of electric drive. DF planking, Maple
frame,
epoxy coated, no fiberglass. It's just under 140 lbs empty, yet is
rated
for 4 adults + gear (900 lbs) - when done right, wood is powerfully
Yeah - I'll throw 'em up there, soon as I get the paint done. I was so
impatient to try the boat, so it went into the water sans paint, just
the epoxy covering the hull. Even found a single pinhole leaks, so I'm
glad I did.
The first coat from wednesday evening is all hardened up, and I added
some more hardware (swivel fold-up seats, better battery accommodations
up front for balance, some brass hand-holds here and there) last night.
I will snap some pics the next time it's in the water (this Sunday or
next) - now that it has the correct balance. It was embarrassingly tail
heavy last time.
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Thanks for the kind offers, Travis and Paul. Travis, though it sounds like
your batts would be the better fit use-wise, Everett is a bunch closer!
Paul, I'll try your set just to see what would happen. I'll probably lose most
of my range, but the cost justifies the experiment. If I can get a steady 8
miles, I might risk a commuting attempt experiment.
Rich; how much would each battery be on your bulk order? I might be interested
in setting a good set aside for future install, if the price seemed reasonable.
Lawrence, in answer to your question, yes, the Lectra is 24V, with two buddy
pairs wired in series. And I personally think that was its downfall. I don't
know how one would balance a buddy pair, especially a pair that saw different
airflows at one side. This became, I believe, the cause of death for batt #1;
it saw quite a bit more cold air against its skin than its buddy, and sadly one
day reversed during the commute years ago. I plan to wrap the batts in
insulating foil this time.
Question, for open discussion: instead of two buddy pairs linked in series,
would it make more sense connect two pairs of series-connected batteries in
tandem? This way, one could install a Rudman Reg on each battery without
having its buddy reach target voltage first and obviating the individual
equalization.
Also, I've been off the list for a while. Has anyone tried a chemistry
different from lead that would fit in a YT hole?
TIA
Jim Dempsey
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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Several folks (including me) have tried a generator trailer. It
works, but it is not the optimal solution. The extra wheels on the
ground add a lot of drag and the size of the generator required makes
the whole thing rather pricey.
My favorite solution is a "Pusher" trailer. Cheap. Simple. Low
pollution. Quite reliable. More efficient than a generator trailer.
If you set it up right, you can lend it to a pal.
Here a couple of examples:
http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm
http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm
Bill Dube'
At 11:41 AM 8/19/2006, you wrote:
Greeting fellow EVers,
I've been playing with the idea of a generator trailer
for a little while now. I have the trailer, yes that
was the easy part. I am having great troubles finding
an affordable (<$1000) diesel/Bio diesel generator or
ever just the engine and I can attach the gen head
later. I didn't go through all this trouble just to
burn gas :p
I'm guessing I need 10-15KW. any suggestions? how are
the rest of you doing this?
thank you for your input!
Brian
81'Bradley GTII
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
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1988-1993 mitsubishi PU
88 body,93 drivetrain,computer,fuel system, motero Limited slip rear at 4:11
I have an internal roll bar with bars back thru the window to the bed
and the frame underneath is re-inforced and the bad was hammered flat to
mount thru the rear bars on the roll bar. Same in the cab, the roll bar
mounts to the frame.
I autocrossed this truck and the frame is very stiff from this "roll bar"
Tilting the bed would be impossible I will need trap doors or a box in
the bed, or load from the bottom.
One other idea, I have a 3 or 5KW gen head to mount on the end of the
last 9" motor, this would power the biggest charger (PFC50) I can find
off the brake light switch. with a current control pot on the brake
pedals first inch or two of travel. Coast and Regen! I have all the
books and the poor ole motor uses as much oil as gas so it would be a
natural evolution, I replaced every thing electrical on that truck when
I went from 88(Carburated) to 93 (fuel injected) so I understand every
wire and dash detail ( well I understood it, who knows what I have
forgotten!)
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Here is another answer....
4 wrecked priuii and 4 wrecked Insights. :-)
Here we would get 4 nimh packs with there own thermal management in a
enclosure we can mount under the bed and hood and 4 BLDC motors to
concatenate together into a 4 rotor BLDC "block" and then we stack the
controllers together, and tie the throttles together. The insight packs
go in the box in the bed to extend range or serve as a mid day dump pack.
Why not dream big?
Actually, I have an option 4.
I am trying to design a hollow shaft induction motor with integrated
gearbox made from parts from the 4t65E HD tranny. This would be fitted
with GM FWD axles and wheels and mount in a carrier that has the
suspension attached to it. The entire carrier then mounts between the
frame rails. No driveline, nice square box for batteries under bed. This
would have 1 reduction ratio before the final drive ratio reverse is in
software, and have a bloddy Park!. Eventually a second one gets built to
put up front, but that is more comlicated. 30%-70% power distribution
accelerating, 70%-30% power distribution during brakeing.
"Who said dreaming is free didn't have an EV."
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Good luck to Rod and all the others at Woodburn!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6025818,00.html
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I've also been working on an electric outboard. I tried a 50lb thrust
trolling motor on my 26ft sailboat, and it could barely move it upstream
on a lazy summer sacramento river. When I was caught going upwind and
uptide in a strong tide in the bay, even my 8hp honda motor had trouble
making headway, while it makes a huge ear-splitting racket.
So I'm convinced I'm going to need a pretty powerful electric motor for
the sailboat.
Jack
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Any Electric is welcome here. Good luck. Seems you have found your
waterline length speed. Keep it there or below and you'll have long run
times. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan T. Peters"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
Well, finally got that EV grin! (sorta)
It's a 12 foot wooden pram I just finished building - design was
modified for the intent of electric drive. DF planking, Maple frame,
epoxy coated, no fiberglass. It's just under 140 lbs empty, yet is rated
for 4 adults + gear (900 lbs) - when done right, wood is powerfully
strong stuff! It's powered by a 40lb trolling motor with an over-sized
prop. Battery is a 110AH Exide flooded deep cycle, 68lbs. Cruises along
nicely at 5-6 knots with two aboard using around 30 amps. Had it on full
power for 1 hour and 20 odd minutes so far, battery should do twice that
easy ;)
LOL - took a couple days of measuring, looking up formulas, and
researching online, so I darn well better. The motor + prop was picked
to hopefully match this hull, and it looks like I got lucky this time.
I was inspired originally by some other lake regulars (Mayfield Lake)
that had been trying to run small production fiberglass and metal
rowboats/jonboats/dinghies with just a large trolling motor. This lake
sees chop over 6" on a regular basis due to it's topography (basically
a flooded canyon). They had little success, with the boats going 2
knots top, and heavy amperage draws (warm wires). This didn't seem right
to me, since in the water electric rules the efficiency roost at low
speeds according to the math - a 300 to 400 Watt (1/2HP) electric drive
typically generates around 40 ft/lbs of thrust, a typical 5HP ICE
outboard generates around 150ft/lbs of thrust.
Having a hull designed to go a particular speed with minimum thrust is
definitely the way to go, given that this family of vehicles is *very*
weight sensitive. The down side is that you go 5-6 knots, or plane. It's
a combination hull, and the transition from displacement (in the water)
to planing (on top of the water) is pretty abrupt. Going from 6 knots to
7 knots should take around double the power, and that curve gets much
worse until you hit plane. The dual motor setup will hopefully run at
7.5 knots, since that is just under the speed limit in the busier
boating lanes on this lake. But after that (about 4HP), a tiny increase
in power gets you gobs of extra speed.
The *prevailing* wisdom is that it's impractical to make an
electric-driven true planing hull. But if you could make it work, the
speed and efficiency available to you would be worthy of much
drooling... I wish the fellow trying to electrify a jet ski the best of
luck! Those darn things are the thorn in every fisherman's side, hear
'em over 1/2 mile away on the lake :-(
Shut them all up and my blood pressure will drop a couple of PSI,
permanently.
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I don't fully grasp this phenomenon. Let's say the pack is fully
charged up over 348 volts. During the course of a full throttle 1/4
mile run, the voltage apparently dips down? To what amount? Why is
this so? What causes sag? Is it just the nature of batteries and any
and every battery will do this?
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Jack Murray wrote:
I've also been working on an electric outboard. I tried a 50lb thrust
trolling motor on my 26ft sailboat, and it could barely move it
upstream on a lazy summer sacramento river. When I was caught going
upwind and uptide in a strong tide in the bay, even my 8hp honda motor
had trouble making headway, while it makes a huge ear-splitting racket.
So I'm convinced I'm going to need a pretty powerful electric motor
for the sailboat.
Jack
Yeah, a sailboat is a deep displacement hull, so it would take plenty of
"torque" to move that bugger along :(
The thing about trolling motors is that they typically come with props
made to work well in weeds. But these are rarely good for pure pushing
power or top end speed. To keep the power requirements down and
efficiency up, pay careful attention to prop selection. It's the
equivalent of which rear-end you use in a RWD auto. 8HP *should* move
that boat along nicely at a slower speed, if you "gear it down" with a
different prop.
There are dual engine & transom mount submerged setups available all the
way up to 48V each. You can mount these anywhere, actually, not just on
a ICE outboard.
Here is a great project where someone converted a medium Briggs &
Stratton outboard to Etek drive:
http://www.bassfishingnetwork.com/articles/phelix.html
And here is where I get my props (and give them - lol):
http://www.youngprops.com/
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That's what I was noticing with LA batts (factory curves). The mfgr
suggested 50% for maximum cycles/range. What I saw from their charts was
about the same number of AH per pack. (Double the cycles for half the draw.)
I do wonder if not taking the pack up to 100% charge would increase its
life. At around 85%, it starts heating and taking the charge slower. If one
is going to limit a batt's range, perhaps keeping it in 50 to 90% SOC would
lengthen it's life??? (It'd certainly help eliminate over charging. <g>) I'm
wondering if this savings would offset having to carry twice the capacity.
Would it be cheaper to draw 80% of the batt's power, or 40% and more than
double its life???
A different chemistry, but I'm assuming that's how the hybrids are getting
such long life. They might do a small cycle numerous times per trip. If I
recall, these batts can last 100K and more. Didn't the Insight just have the
battery expectancy raised to 10 years?
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> This is a slight misunderstanding. A very shallow discharge doesn't
produce
> a small number of cycles. In every case with lead acid (and most other
> chemistries), the shallower the discharge per cycle, the more cycles you
can
> obtain before the battery is worn out. ("Worn out" usually means "unable
to
> produce at least 80% of its rated capacity.")
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> While the performance of a 6000 lb vehicle may not be great, it's
> likely to have better range than a small light vehicle, AND have
> something the small light vehicle doesn't have. Cargo capacity.
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
But isn't it going to require about 3000 lbs of batts to go around 50 miles?
(Assuming LA's are used.)
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Rich offered:
> The general idea is 48 volts and less than about 1000 amps
> is not enough power to keep up with traffic in normal
> driving.
Sure, if you are talking about pushing a Mack Truck.
Your numbers would argue that it takes 800wh/mile at 60mph!
I thought 300wh/mile isn't uncommon for most conversions doing freeway
speed, e.g. 60mph.
That equates to 18kw, or 375-amps at 48v.
This is near doable with a properly cooled pair of 48v ETEKs, not that
anyone but Cloud would want to do it...
But there's no reason why a scaled up version of an ETEK couldn't be
produced which delivered 18kw steady at 48v, allowing a single-motor,
efficient, permag low voltage DC solution.
I don't dispute that the series-wound DC-motor case is apples compared to
the permanent magnet DC oranges. And your experience is clearly mostly with
series-wound.
But I don't think you can seriously argue that to keep up with traffic the
average conversion needs to be dishing out 48kw.
-Myles
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Jeremy,
This is a great analysis.Can you send around the list of vehicles that
range from 7km/kwh and higher?
It would be interesting to see if there are any common design features.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What you need for on-the-spot range estimation is the
rutman range formula. In short, the range R (in km)
is given as a function of battery capacity B(of any type, in kWh,
best at the 20C level) and total vehicle weight W (in kg) by:
R = 250 B / (W^0.6)
So for instance for a 1000kg rig you will get 4km for every kWh of stored
battery energy.
For you american types who dont dig the metric system and all its attendant
elegance, there is a lucky cancellation (good thing nobody is using foot-pounds
or league-bars x ft^2 for stored energy) that makes the formula look exactly
the same in cowboy units:
R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
so your range in miles for 10kWh of battery in a 2200lb car (thats total weight,
including the batteries) would be a cool 25 miles or so.
This formula does the right derating of range per stored kWh of battery energy
due to extra weight, its not a simple R= k B/W relation (as used by sandorsky
or the massimo rule-of-thumb) but
rather a 0.6 power of weight that comes in. Why ?
I dont know, thats just how it seems to go according to the data from
several hundred vehicles listed at the austinev.org site.
The formula is good for mopeds, bikes, cars trucks etc.
Check out the exciting full-color graphs at the yahoogroups ev
forum pictures or files link.
Hello Ryan,
The range should be longer if the vehicle is lighter. Just like any EV
battery to weight ratio.
...snip...
From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Roland,
Interesting. So if it's "5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle", what
happens if the vehicle is only 2 tons? Longer ranges?
I can't afford them anyway; I'm just blue-skying.
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't.
Haifa 32000 Israel
phone 972 4 8293669
fax 972 4 8295755
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