EV Digest 5775
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Tell me about sag
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY
state fleet.
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lithium Safety
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Ego Scooters. Battery replacement.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Low Voltage DC EVs
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Better plug in EV's, Re: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius.
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Opinions on Toyota Echo for conversion?
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DOD v pack life
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Generator Trailer
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) miles/kwh, was Re: EV digest 5766
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Opinions on Toyota Echo for conversion?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Live digital dash
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Efficiency was Re: Low Voltage DC EVs
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Opinions on Toyota Echo for conversion?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Steorn Challenge
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Opinions on Toyota Echo for conversion?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: DOD v pack life
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ego Scooters. Battery replacement.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Tell me about sag
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) OT mishap (was RE: Steorn Challenge)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
48Kw is around 64 H.P. While that is certainly enough to **keep** most
vehicles at highway speeds, it would certainly take a long
time to get there. It scares me to have to merge with highway traffic in an
underpowered small car. In my big truck with 30 ft
trailer it was not so intimidating, but an econo car loaded to the hilt with
batteries that could only put out 64 H.P. would force
me to take the back roads.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Myles Twete
> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:09 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle
> warning)
>
>
> Rich offered:
>
> > The general idea is 48 volts and less than about 1000 amps
> > is not enough power to keep up with traffic in normal
> > driving.
>
> Sure, if you are talking about pushing a Mack Truck.
>
> Your numbers would argue that it takes 800wh/mile at 60mph!
> I thought 300wh/mile isn't uncommon for most conversions doing freeway
> speed, e.g. 60mph.
> That equates to 18kw, or 375-amps at 48v.
> This is near doable with a properly cooled pair of 48v ETEKs, not that
> anyone but Cloud would want to do it...
> But there's no reason why a scaled up version of an ETEK couldn't be
> produced which delivered 18kw steady at 48v, allowing a single-motor,
> efficient, permag low voltage DC solution.
>
> I don't dispute that the series-wound DC-motor case is apples compared to
> the permanent magnet DC oranges. And your experience is clearly mostly with
> series-wound.
>
> But I don't think you can seriously argue that to keep up with traffic the
> average conversion needs to be dishing out 48kw.
>
> -Myles
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
See this similar question by Steve Lacy Sent: 8/10/06
And follow up by Cor van de Water Sent: 8/10/06
Subject: Stats on Sagging (was RE: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steve Lacy
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:56 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Stats on Sagging (was RE: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration)
Is there a good "rule of thumb" about voltage sagging? It seems as though
everyone here is speaking from emperical data about their own systems and
how they behave under load, which are great data points. But, I haven't
seen any hard facts about voltage sagging on the battery manufacturer's
websites.
Is there a standard measure of "Can draw X amps for Y seconds with Z%
voltage sag" where Y and Z may be "industry standard constants". I
assume "CCA" and "CA" are instantaneous peak amps, but there's never any
mention of how much sag, or how long the CA numbers can be sustained for.
Some really rough sagging numbers for AGM's vs. Gel vs. Flooded vs. Nicad
vs. LiIon vs. LiPoly would be really interesting.
Steve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:34 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Stats on Sagging (was RE: 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration)
>
>
> Steve,
>
> There is enough documentation:
> - the spec of the battery should show internal resistance,
> so the sag is simply a matter of multiplying
> - the CCA is specified as the current for 30 seconds where
> the voltage stays over 8V (on a 12V battery) at 0F temp.
>
> However, if you monitor batteries and their behavior, you will
> see that there always is a secondary effect to the internal
> resistance: the voltage continues to change for several seconds
> after you applied a current change. It seems there is a
> stratification-effect, maybe this is the Peukert-effect, that
> makes the battery voltage difference always a little bit larger
> than the initial effect which follows the internal resistance
> pretty good.
>
> So - first order approximation, say that you batteries have
> 5 mOhm internal resistance and are sitting at 12.5V:
> at 1000A the voltage will sag to 12.5 - (1000 x 0.005) = 7.5V
> but you will notice that within seconds the voltage will be
> lower, more in the high 6 Volts.
>
> As soon as you are drawing the batteries down to 1/2 voltage
> you are at maximum power from the batteries - any lower and you
> will only get less power from the batteries (and damage the
> batteries, because you *generate* more power as heat in them
> than you are drawing out of them.
> Better to try and stay above the 8V (2/3) level, so you know
> you are getting close to max power without burning the same
> amount up inside your batteries.
>
> My 110 Ah 12V AGMs are specified to have 4 mOhm resistance,
> so drawing my controller's max 200A from them should
> change their voltage by 0.8V initially, though I see the
> volage always move quite a bit more in the next seconds.
>
> BTW - batteries react different when they are over 80% full,
> I have been able to push my pack to 420V at a 120A regen,
> so that is about 16V per battery while I was expecting to
> see the voltage change from 340 to 353V (13.1V to 13.6V)
> but the full batteries could not take the charge....
> (I have since restricted regen when SOC is above 80%)
>
> Sagging is of course the opposite direction, but I would
> expect that over the course of different SOC the response
> will also differ, to the same current draw.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 11:15 AM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: Tell me about sag
>
>
> I don't fully grasp this phenomenon. Let's say the pack is fully
> charged up over 348 volts. During the course of a full throttle 1/4
> mile run, the voltage apparently dips down? To what amount? Why is
> this so? What causes sag? Is it just the nature of batteries and any
> and every battery will do this?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, this is an ultra long response.
I'll call this "Chapter 1: PHEV vs EV charging". :)
On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 09:24:44AM -0700, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Ok
>
> Folks I am not sure who is arguing with Who on this thread..
> It looks Like Nick and ...
There is no arguing here.
I'm just observing the options for charging PHEVs vs EVs.
If you can get PHEVs accepted by the market, I think that EVs will naturally
follow.
Please keep up the good work!
The only point of discussion really is 1.8Kw charging vs ~20Kw charging
for PHEVs.
Pros for 1.8Kw charging
-------------
You can simply plug in your car to a standard 110v plug.
Cheaper. Simpler.
You don't need to worry about getting high power outlets, or feel like you've
lost something if you don't have one available. Zero infrastructure worries.
Will put less demand on the power grid.
Pros for 20Kw charging
-------------
You can still plug it into a standard 110v plug.
Charging is 12x faster.
You have the option to charge your PHEV fairly fast if you want to.
Can top off your PHEV over lunch, and burn even less fuel!
Cons for 1.8Kw charging
-------------
Charging is 12x slower.
Cons for 20Kw charging
-------------
Increased cost. Increased complexity.
Will drive the perception that you need a high power outlet to use a PHEV.
May encourage people to plug in when they are at lunch, right when demand
is highest.
Non-even load at night during off peak hours.
(This only matters once there are many PHEVs on the road.)
> Cost of power is not the savings at high power charge levels..Ok more than a
> 120VAC 15 amp outlet can provide. Time is, and the ability to get back on
> the road without Hydro carbons burned.
That's one of the advantages of high power PHEV charging.
> Charge it over night.. is an old and tired EV line... Made moot with real
> decent power chargers...
This matters a lot to an EV, but not much to a PHEV.
Who cares if your PHEV is ready to go at 11PM or 4AM?
If you need to take a rare late night trip after a day of driving, you will
burn a little gas.
Unfortunately, you will always be burning gas in a PHEV Prius.
> "Charge it over night" means I have not done my Job.
> I love it when folks use this line.. Most of us EVers.. don't have that much
<..snip..>
> Trust me on this... and the 300 plus folks that have paid me bucks to solve
> that problem.
I agree 100% that fast charging short range PbA EVs is very valuable.
I'm considering the requirements of PHEVs in this case.
>
> Speed is nice, It is not needed. But then again.. not many of us relish a
> Pinto..for speed and power.
True. I do not relish a Pinto for speed and power.
> And yes we all know a PFC charger can run on 120 VAC and not blow a 15 amp
> breaker, So I got slow... if that's all you can find for it.
If the cost is the same as a 1.8Kw charger, then this is a complete non-issue.
If you could put a 400Kw charger on these guys for the same price as a 1.8Kw
charger, it would also be mostly be a moot point.
Also, If you could lower the cost of your chargers due to the volume you would
be moving for PHEVs, this would be another great pro!
> Forget random timers. Pick the lowest TOU point and suck as much as you can
> before the rates climb in the morning peak.
> The limits here are not getting a Peaking demand charge... aka Stay under
> about 50Kw of draw.
This thinking works well for <100,000 PHEVs, which I guess will be valid for
awhile.
I was thinking about a future with many PHEVs on the road.
> I know.... not many of us have that problem do we??
Haha, my home electrical service can not even source 50Kw :)
> Charge it fast and promtly, equalize... take care of EV state of charge
> house chores...go to sleep.
Or just plug it in and go to sleep. That's what I'm looking for :)
> In cold weather.. maybe even a harder charge, as
> close to the time of use as possible for a bit of added heat in the pack.
Small heaters could easily run off 1.8Kw to maintain PbA batteries at operating
temperature.
> Power company feed back... Yes this is the Big thing we will need when we or
> a fleet of EVs need to get filled up. We need to know almost real time if
> NOW would be the best time to dump a 100 to 500Kw fleet sized charge load on
> the grid.. If it is not a good time...what's the cost penalty??? I think
> this should be handled by the power company.. Card swipe/. credit card point
> of sale equipment,
> you get to Buy power.. and see the Cheap rates and the expensive and make
> the desicion weather Now is NOT the best time or we buy enough to get home..
> and wait for the peaking load to pass.
Right!
High power PHEV charging with power company feedback would be great!
> Neat concept... there's a Billion Bucks out there in inventing this idea and
> implimenting it.
Note that this issue does not really exist at all with 1.8Kw PHEV charging.
This is one of my points.
> Microsoft may be a nice company to donate a few Kw of power..to the SEVA
<..snip..>
Right. This is a non-issue with 1.8Kw PHEV charging.
> Switch for current control??? Umm that's what the Big Black knob is for...
Right.
> Oh Lithium... clear for the future.. and HOW many on road EVs have
> Lithium??? how long has A123 been shipping cells???
This is a specious argument.
How many EVs are on the road at all!
> I love the product Would kill for more... and am doing design work with
> them.. But....10 year life span when they have only been around for 1 year..
> Immortal batteries... God I hope so....
Me too.
> Right now about half the public would run for the hills if they knew a Ev
> had 500 Dell type packs of Lithium cells on board... this is not a good
> thing this week.
Sure, that's why you would use A123, or Valence.
> Lithium is the future of stored energy for the short term..say 5 years..
I would say, at least five years.
> Ultra caps are getting there.. for those big amps for a couple of seconds.
> NOT even close to the stored Kwhrs that we need.
Agreed.
> two powers of magnitude need to be found. Remember here.... we are competing
> with 15 Gallons of Gasoline or 24 gallons of Diesel. That's a LOT Of Kwhr!!
That's true. But we have efficiency on our side, so it's not as bad as it seems.
> Ultracaps will take over the Hybrid packs and soon.
Non-PHEV hybrids.
> But for range it's going
> to be metal chemical reaction...For a long time!!!
> What Li does for use right now is store enough kwhr to get up to a 10 gallon
> tank of HC???
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this?
> This is the big break through we needed... lets do the best we
> can about getting it to the people.
> It will change the way Hybrids and medium range EVs get the job done. Long
> range EVs are possible.. They were not before.
> We all thought Ultra caps were the next best thing.. then the current crop
> of Killer Lithium showed up... We are still riding that wave.
I agree that if EEstor comes through with there performance claims, it will
make everything else obsolete. What a good day that would be!
> Caps can get Millions of cycles.. yea.. last for Ever Yea.. I doubt
> it...Ever is a long time... most likely they will die from miss use or sub
> system failure.
We would still be way ahead of the game. But like you said, this is all just
a pipe dream today.
Lithium is here now.
> There is hope here, But the last 10 years have brought painfull advances...
> and still not enough stored watts to drive around the block with.
Right.
> Hey level 2 charging??? nice??? damn near required when you have 45Kwhr to
> fill up, Even over night
<..snip..>
Sure, I don't think you will have that much in a PHEV.
Plus for the EV case, you could still slowly put the rare long trips worth of
energy back in over a couple of nights.
>
> Evs with a Sub 60 mile range ..non starter..please!.... we have 60 mile
> range..on lead Acid... oh now you want 100 miles, now you have 200.. and oh
> no now you need 400 miles..
Like I said, I have a Solectria Force that gets 50 miles of range on a good
day, and I happily do most of my trips in her.
I'm saying that selling this to the public is harder. I think you need 100
miles of expressway range to put people at ease.
400 miles would be a dream, but is clearly unnecessary in most cases!
> Just keep raising the bar.. with a 10 mile range..most Evs are quite
<..snip..>
I agree 100%.
> Maybe off of 120 Vac.. better get a Double tall Mocha and a good thick
> newpaper.
Haha!
As I said earlier, fast charging makes much more sense on a short range EV.
> > Sure, fast charging is a huge benefit. But is not needed on a PHEV.
> >
> > Plus, the fast charging approach to a long range EV seems suboptimal.
> >
> Sub optimal??? a long range EV will need ultra high charge levels, to get
> the 10s or even 100s of Kwhr on board in less than a weeks's time.
You're right. If you have an EV with 100s of Kwhrs on board, and you use
the range regularly, you will need Level II charging.
But, you should not need to fast charge them.
> Not needed on a PHEV....but definatley wanted... and craved... once you have
> a running PHEV system.
> Sure... 1800 watts and all night... or 7200 watts during lunch break.
> Or 12.5 Kw and you get to drive the afternoon shift Gasless. As the state of
> New York wants.
I agree. A truly gas optional PHEV that can charge fairly fast could be
advantageous. But my 50 mile range EV gets me just about everywhere as it is.
The downside is that 12Kw charging of a large number of PHEVs during the day
could be problematic.
> Come on... faster is better when you are doing a job with the PHEV, not just
> playing with it.
Sure. But there may be downsides to this.
> Lead now.. saves gas in the summer and fall of 2006. Lithium.. when they get
> here... and that's gonna be next summer or sooner.
> At a price of $1 a watt hour.
> PHEV kits are looking to be about 8 to 15 Kwhr of stored energy. You folks
> to do the math.
True, mass production is desperately needed to bring the cost down.
> > > >>Not build some Tin can that barley gets the job done over night.
> > > >
> > > >It seems like (minus the tin can part) a charger that just gets the
> > > >job done overnight is exactly what you want for a PHEV, right?
> > >
>
> If that is your tight design point ...you are right on.
> Any EV is limited to how fast you can charge it...
That's incomplete.
I think that any EV is limited by a formula that includes range on a full
charge, charging speed, and high power outlet availability.
A PHEV is unlimited.
> That EV Grin is better played many times, than once a day.
> So.. in my case.. "just gets the job done" is NOT a operational success.
> You have to ask what the customer wants....not what you thing he does.
> That's the fail point... it's User defined..
> My users want more... to the point that they CAN remove the need for Fuel.
A Prius is not really gas optional. This is the big disappointment for me
regarding the Prius PHEV. But it is definitely a start.
> The best Plug in Hybrid kit..gets about 27 miles from a pack of Valence
> batteries.... at over a Buck watt.
Yep, low volume prices are rough. And I think it will be a long time before
it even comes close to PbA.
Having said that, the replacement required issue is a bummer.
> Ryan and I will get that today with 3 charge cycles and 20 cent a watthour
> lead, that cost less than a 1000 to replace.
If we can sell people on this, I think it might be workable.
> If we had all day to do runs...and we might.... I can log 100 miles on a
> lead acid kit.
> And nobody can do that right now even with Lithium.
You mean 100 miles EV only right?
> Now we might con a set of Valence 24 off a buddy.. and then get to some real
> miles.. with Both Range and a fast charger....But then we are just looking
> for bragging rights.
Haha! I'll be on the look out for more cool PHEVs coming out of the Rudman
labs!
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First, look at the various chemistries of lithium batteries. Some are more
problematic than others. Some manufacturers claim that their batteries
won't burst into flames no matter what is physically done to them (don't
know about charge/discharge abuse).
Another problem is the care the batteries get during shipment. The
batteries have a maximum and minimum temperature they can be exposed to.
Think about how hot the batteries can get in a container sitting on the
dock, and how cold they can get in the cargo hold of an airplane. Thermal
expansion and contraction can cause mechanical damage to the battery before
it ever gets to it's destination.
In addition to thermal considerations, a good bms is an absolutely
necessity. I've heard that the bms may have been a problem in the Dell
computers. Other computers using the same cells don't seem to have the
problem.
From what I've read, the Tesla has extensive battery and thermal management
systems. I assume the ACP Scion will as well.
Dave
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Lithium Safety
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:22:46 -0700
Yes, it could be. Gasoline doesn't catch fire while sitting in the
driveway,
not being tampered with. <g> Some lithiums have done *exactly* that... no
damage, no external source... whoosh, overheating, taking out the pile.
BTW, this was a noted problem before the recall of these laptops... and had
nothing to do with them. It was an FAA report, as reported by PBS,
wondering
about the safety of these batts on commercial airlines. I'm hoping someone
will report which batts (makes and so forth) that are causing these fires.
*Usually* in the EV world, it's been a fire when the rig was left on the
charger too long.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium Safety
> Couldn't be any worse than gasoline, eh?
> ;-)
> Andrew
>
> Edward Ang wrote:
> >
> > If they are recalling them because they might catch fire, do you
> > really want them in your car or any device?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a client that has melted his 34ah Long batteries in his Ego Scooter.
The Ego is a well made 24v Scooter. The batteries were highly out of
balance & melted under the stress of charging after totally discharging the
pack. In the U1 35 ah size what would be a good brand in SLA to replace the
Long brand batteries. I have 33 AH Interstate DCS 33H in my Schwinn
Chopper. They are supposed to be great batteries but at about the same size
as the Ego battery it has 1 to 2 ah less. Anybody happy with an Ego and
their batteries. What works well? Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich, Miles and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric
Vehicle warning)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:08:45 -0700
>Rich offered:
>
>> The general idea is 48 volts and less than about 1000
>> amps is not enough power to keep up with traffic in
>> normal driving.
>
>Sure, if you are talking about pushing a Mack Truck.
>
>Your numbers would argue that it takes 800wh/mile at 60mph!
>I thought 300wh/mile isn't uncommon for most conversions
>doing freeway speed, e.g. 60mph.
>That equates to 18kw, or 375-amps at 48v.
>This is near doable with a properly cooled pair of 48v
>ETEKs, not that anyone but Cloud would want to do it...
>But there's no reason why a scaled up version of an ETEK
>couldn't be produced which delivered 18kw steady at 48v,
>allowing a single-motor, efficient, permag low voltage DC
>solution.
>
>I don't dispute that the series-wound DC-motor case is
>apples compared to the permanent magnet DC oranges. And
>your experience is clearly mostly with series-wound.
>
>But I don't think you can seriously argue that to keep up
>with traffic the average conversion needs to be dishing out
>48kw.
>
>-Myles
I agree. I kept up with traffic fairly well just on
36vdc in my 1,000 lb EV without a transmission.
A bug converted weighs about twice that needs just
twice the power assuming you keep it under 50 mph because of
it's aerodynamics, easily had with 48vdc and a transmission.
The bug's only had 20 to 40kw ICE power which as been found,
you can accelerate 20%+ or so faster with the same kw power
of a series motor. Their shunt motor would probably need to
equal an ICE's kw power for the same acceleration.
A Karmen Ghia would do it at even higher speeds
easily, as probably a Geo Metro too, with it's better aero.
Mine and at least 1 Karmen Ghia and the Solectria
Sunrise, a much larger EV, use just 100wthrs/mile.
Jerry Dycus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I don't see a reason for having to recharge a
hybrid for long distance as at steady, high speeds, an ICE
isn't that ineff. And so far the battery packs are hardly
big enough for long distance to make a difference. Around
town, yes but not on the freeway long distance.
If you want a truly eff PinH, better is using an EV
with good range of 40-100 miles and a small generator of
5-7kw/1,000 lbs built in, would for most, be the best way to
go with the gen rarely needed because of the battery EV
range.
My route is using an Eff, built as an EV with a
100wthr/mile or less energy use with 100 mile range, easily
done on lead batts, using a 7kw generator allows you to go
as far as you like at over 100mpg those few times you are
going over 400 miles at a time. Under that, mileage will
much better!!
This could be done with many of the more aero kit
cars found many times for under $1k on ebay, ect, with dead
engines too.
If you charge underway from a generator, there is
litle reason for fast charging needed.
As such a generator doesn't weigh much, you can if
nessasary just cut a couple batts from the pack to make up
for it achieving unlimited range.
Yes, David Roden, ;^D , will jump in here saying
small motors are ineff, polluting but those things can be
taken care of if one pays attention. Some ICE's running at a
fixed power can easily be tuned to make little pollution and
there are eff small motors out there like the Subaru/Robin.
For larger EV's, the Geo 3 cyl engine which only weighs 100
lbs, could be used to do the same for up to 5,000lb EV's.
Where this really saves more is in not having to
have a second car.
Another way with the Prius may be to use 2 or 3
stock battery packs with a microcomputer/stamp to switch
them in and out as needed to be charged, discharged by the
stock hybrid system.
Connecting a full pack when under EV drive and
connecting a discharged one when ICE motoring to be
recharged and on the way home, let them all be discharged,
and recharged from the grid once home. I'd bet you could get
a grant from NY for that!
Jerry Dycus
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Your opinion: is the Toyota Echo a good candidate for conversion?
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> And how is that measured ? Voltage ?
>
> I have a 48 volt 220 ahr pack
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Roden" <ev@> wrote:
> > I'd
> > recommend charging any time you've used 20% or more of your battery's
> > energy.
>
amp-hours used
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--- Begin Message ---
> Several folks (including me) have tried a generator trailer. It
> works, but it is not the optimal solution. The extra wheels on the
> ground add a lot of drag and the size of the generator required makes
> the whole thing rather pricey.
>
> My favorite solution is a "Pusher" trailer. Cheap. Simple. Low
> pollution. Quite reliable. More efficient than a generator trailer.
> If you set it up right, you can lend it to a pal.
>
> Here a couple of examples:
>
> http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm
>
> http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm
>
> Bill Dube'
According to his website, JB's contact address is now through Tesla
Motors. I wonder how much he's using his ICE pusher with his latest
step up the EV food chain.
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--- Begin Message ---
> Jeremy,
>
> This is a great analysis.Can you send around the list of vehicles that
> range from 7km/kwh and higher?
>
> It would be interesting to see if there are any common design features.
>
That's 230 watt-hours/mi - most properly-build EVs in the
sedan-or-smaller size should get that or better. Go to EVAlbum.com for
plenty of examples.
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--- Begin Message ---
> Your opinion: is the Toyota Echo a good candidate for conversion?
>
A stretched version was basically the first generation Prius.
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to everyone who helped me correctly wire my LCD digital dash. It works
great. To see the finished project go to http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/857
Or in case the link doesn't go through look for "1977 Kawasaki" in the
Electric vehicle photo album.
Thanks again
Rick Miller
1977 Kawasaki
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jerry and All,
Mine and at least 1 Karmen Ghia and the Solectria
Sunrise, a much larger EV, use just 100wthrs/mile.
The Ghia is using a little more power nowadays, I think
because the 10 year old YTs have developed some
internal resistance. I notice that they warm up slightly
during both charging and discharging, and the E-meter
which reported CEFs of 98%+ for years, now reads
more like 77%.
I recently measured the efficiency and it's getting
130 Wh/Mi, which I'm still pleased with. The other day
I was giving the pack some exercise, so I drove it further
than I normally do and was about to return home and
recharge when I got some kind of a wild hair or something,
and decided to "hit the road in search of adventure".
I drove right on past my place and headed for the freeway.
There was no stopping me, or talking sense into me as I
headed into uncharted territory, as I had no idea how
much capacity this old pack had left in it. After crossing
town I turned on the freeway and took it up to the speed
limit which is 55 around here. The power needed to maintain
that speed was 45 Amps at around 192 Volts. I decided
to see if I could make it to the airport, I'd worry about
making it back later - like I said it was a wild hair, takin'
chances, livin' on the edge.
Many years ago I used to trailer a gyrocopter up into
the valley where I now live and fly it out of the quiet little
airport. I crashed it there too, (but not before I made a
"Wings of Steel" music video) but that's another story.
I had an EV grin that wouldn't quit as I sailed down the
road and found the turnoff to the airport that I hadn't been
to in many, many years. I checked a few voltages when I
got there and knew I had nothing to worry about. I toured
the area and looked at a few planes, then headed back.
By the time I returned, I had gone 17 miles and the individual
batteries were still hanging around 12.5 Volts, so it still had
plenty of range left.
I told Wayland that I would run it well over 20 miles the
next day or so, and then post.....but it never happened.
So even though the pack's capacity is less than 1/2 of what
it was when new, it still has more range than I need, so I get to
keep going and going.
Just my two Energizers worth,
John
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Here's this page if you haven't already seen it: http://electric-echo.com/
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You're right, if it works then so much the better for all of us. But I've
looked at too many of these well intentioned (or not) schemes under cover of
hokey advertising that its easy to tell when its bunk. No researcher in this
field would ever dare say thay have technology that is over 100% efficient. It
has been hard enough for the valid researchers to make people believe without
automatically discarding when they claim to have COP>1 machines. And these
machines already exist in millions of homes. The sketchy details on their site
say they have a way to make energy using magnetics. If this is the case and
they have found a way to tap into the Heavyside nondiverged Poynting energy
flow then they have some really weak if any supporting evidence. Advertising
for good scientific review in the Economist is like running a ploitical ad
campain in a professional peer reviewed journal. I'd be the first to say I
was wrong if it turns out they have something, and I would wis!
h them the best. I just hope the results of the scientific review they are
seeking isn't published in The Weekly World News.
:-)
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 6:53 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Steorn Challenge
>
>
> If they put up the money for an ad in the Economist I'm at least willing to
> give them a chance. What harm will it do? If they are full of it then it
> will cement your idea that it is bogus. If it works so much better for the
> world. Lawrence Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:15 AM
> Subject: RE: Steorn Challenge
>
>
> > This smells and I'll tell you why. It is clear these folks are not
> presenting to you some basic concepts. They claim in the first paragraph to
> have technology that is over 100% efficient which they would have a hard
> time proving. They do however claim further down that the technology has a
> Coefficient Of Performance (C.O.P.) greater than 1 (they say 100%, but
> technically its the same). Those who do serious research in this field
> however refer to it as C.O.P.>1. Now this in itself IS actually possible.
> Heat pumps, solar panels and wind turbines are all C.O.P.>1 devices. They
> will actually produce more energy in their lifetime that it took to make
> them. None of them violate the laws of physics and none of the Zero Point
> Energy researchers claim to. Their second claim can be proven well enough
> by the above examples. The third however "There is no identifiable
> environmental source of the energy" is the clincher. The above examples
> while not over 100% efficient derive t!
> > heir energy from the environment. While Zero Point Energy may exist and
> there may be a way to harvest it has to come from somewhere. Their 3rd
> claim pretty much invalidates the credibility of their work. I would not
> give them any personal information in hopes you will find a new way to power
> your electric vehicles. They have no details or specifics of their
> technology to critique and I would venture to guess that this thread will
> not be allowed any further by the moderators.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of Thomas Waltz
> > > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 10:40 PM
> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > Subject: Steorn Challenge
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx
> > > Steorn develops free energy technology and issues challenge to the
> global scientific community
> > >snip<
> >
>
>
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Because it is _similar_ to a Civic, I'd say, "sure".
But think of the following:
Have others converted this model?
If they have, they managed to get an adapter plate
fabricated. Somebody somewhere can do it for you,
too.
Somebody has already laid out the batteries, and found
out that X can fit under the hood, and Y can fit in
the trunk, and it will still handle safely.
This is the reason that I so enjoyed converting my
Civic. I had many "knowns" and relatively few
"unknowns". If you're adventurous, and have done many
EVs, you probably don't give a rip. But this was my
first conversion, and I didn't have an endless wallet
to try things one way, then find out it wouldn't work,
and rip it out and do it again.
Hope that helps!
peace,
--- Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Your opinion: is the Toyota Echo a good candidate
> for conversion?
> >
>
> A stretched version was basically the first
> generation Prius.
>
>
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Aug 2006 at 13:46, Michael Perry wrote:
> I do wonder if not taking the pack up to 100% charge would increase its
> life ...
This is one of those "delicate balance" deals. While a fair bit of
depreciation certainly occurs during the last 20% of charge, an incomplete
charge also reduces life. Getting the most cycles is a balancing act
between avoiding sulfation from undercharging and and avoiding grid
corrosion from overcharging. Which is worse depends on your battery's
design - and also on whom you ask. ;-)
Some of the problems are solved by advanced battery chemistry. Nickel-based
chemistries, for example, have the advantage that the electrolyte doesn't
participate in the chemical reaction, and they don't suffer from sulfation.
Perhaps I should rather say though that, with other chemistries, the failure
and depreciation mechanisms of lead batteries are replaced by different
failure and depreciation mechanisms. ;-)
> A different chemistry, but I'm assuming that's how the hybrids are
> getting such long life. They might do a small cycle numerous times per trip.
Exactly. Prius keeps the SOC between 40% and 80%, IIRC.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Aug 2006 at 16:46, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> In the U1 35 ah size what would be a good brand in SLA to replace the
> Long brand batteries.
I used "Chairman" brand in my Electroped and they worked very well.
Chairman is a division of (or else manufactured by) Concorde Lifeline
batteries. They are (or at least were) made in the USA, unlike many of the
cheap Chinese scooter batteries.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Aug 2006 at 14:15, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What causes sag? Is it just the nature of batteries and any
> and every battery will do this?
It's caused by the internal resistance of the battery. Every battery has
some. Different types and brands have different amounts. A 12v flooded
marine battery has a lot; an Optima AGM has appreciably less.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Aug 2006 at 13:20, Mike Willmon wrote:
> an
> econo car loaded to the hilt with batteries that could only put out 64 H.P.
> would force me to take the back roads.
Back in the 1960s, typical HP for a small car was much less than that. VWs
had 40hp engines. I owned an Opel Kadett with a 1 litre engine that had that
much output. Of course it weighed only about 1600lb! In those days speed
limits were 70mph in most areas.
On the EV side, my Honda conversion (2500lb) peaked at 40kw, and my
Solectria (2100lb) at 37kw.
When you have less power available, you use different driving strategies.
When necessary, you wait on the ramp for traffic to clear before you merge.
(Don't be in such a hurry. ;-) You use longer onramps, or ones that are less
busy, or ones that are on downslopes.
IMO, American drivers are a little bit spoiled by having such high powered
cars. I would say "overpowered" but certainly many don't agree. I
understand the concern many people have. Certainly low powered cars, EV or
ICE, are not for everyone, but IMO slow cars are not dangerous if they're
properly driven.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My appologies to the list. I meant to reply only to the sender. I promise I
won;t run for office :-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Willmon
> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 7:02 PM
> To: Lawrence Rhodes; ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Steorn Challenge
>
>
> You're right, if it works then so much the better for all of us....
>
--- End Message ---
