EV Digest 5793
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Link to Battery Electrolyte Acid (Specific gravity 1.268)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Optical encoders for "throttle" (was RE: A note on potentiometers)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Major Players RaceTime, was Re: Test Lane is NOT Racing
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Apple recalls 1.8 million laptop batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kokam=B4s_BMS__=28was:_The_next_evolution_of...?=
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=29?=
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Heater Core Replacement
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Optical encoders for "throttle" (was RE: A note on potentiometers)
by Joe Vitek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 18650 specs question...
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV List Moderation (was : A123 pack configuration in KillaCycle)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Freedom EV update
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: NEDRA News: Late Night Nationals
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New EV board !!!!!
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Heater Core Replacement
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) So I'm buying/installing a DC-DC converter and I want to build a heater.
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Freedom EV Crash Test?
by Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Optical encoders for "throttle" (was RE: A note on potentiometers)
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV digest 5792
by Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: The next evolution of hobbyist EVs - there is money to be made
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: I don't need a dc-dc converter
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Freedom EV Crash Test?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Gotta respond on this one. Easier to just BLOW the tops off! Don't stand
close though!!When the tops are gone ya can dump out the acis and slide the
cells out. Often the plates are pretty threadbare, for lack of a better
term. The active material, a reddish sludge is in the "Bilge" or botton of
the battery case. Whole thing is a damn MESS! Gotta do it outside and FLUSH
acid and crud away, with a garden hose. You don't want to make a habit of
doing this, for sure!Nor would the Environmental Pollution folks would want
you, ether.
I guess you COULD flush out cells, but what a pain in the ass!And as
somebody else said, what are you gunna DO with all the liquid crap you will
have left over?
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 8:25 PM
Subject: FYI: Link to Battery Electrolyte Acid (Specific gravity 1.268)
> Has anyone cut the top off of dead batteries, removed the plates,
> dumped out the sludge, and then reassembled, resealed, and refilled
> the battery? Seems floodeds could last a long time if the plates are
> still good?
>
> http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electrolyte.php
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are reliable pots out there though.
If this is still about throttles, the vehicle's original Throttle
Position Sensor is designed for continuous back-and-forth duty. If you
kept the original throttle body and throttle cable, it'd be pretty
simple to use that. Otherwise some jerryrigging is going to be necessary.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Test Lane is NOT Racing
> --<DB wrote>--
> Do you think we could run each other soonnnnnn HEADS UP? Dennis
> Berube meet you half way by the end of the year!!!
> --<snip>--
>
> hmmmmm......., quick Expedia check.......that would make it ~50 mile
radius from Sacramento for both of you....AND it's *only* a couple of hours
up the road from Bakersfied, Dennis (and another lonnngggg weekend for
PlasmaBoy Racing :-)
>
> Maybe ACP could drive up their T-Zero (and still have plenty of juice
left over BEFORE the race), and IF (yeah, I know I'm really pushing it now)
the Tesla boys wanted to come out and play.............
>
> You know the Governator just announced a major (proposed) Emmisions
Reduction bill, and if anybody's got connections at the State capital,
....maybe there's some *sponsorship/funds* available?
>
> OK, OK, I know this is starting to get OT.........
>
Hey Jim an' All;
Not OT at all. Hell! I dropped a suggestion , sorta tongue in cheek,for a
Alaska NEDRA EVent and they are all ready to haul Zombie to the Land of the
Midnite sun. So the power of suggestion goes a long way here!?Boy if you
could get all the above EV hardware on the same trak at the same time? Worth
a Jet Blue in from ANYWHERE! So lets set it up, make a one off or yearly
like FLA's Battery Beach Burnout in West Palm.
Seeya at MORE races!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yes BMS is useless here, for such failure only adequate battery box can take
care of the failure and contain it.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 1:20 AM
Subject: RE: Apple recalls 1.8 million laptop batteries
> Edward Ang wrote:
>
> > Dell confirmed that the problem is manufacturing
> > contamination. Metal particles remained in the
> > cell causing shorts across the separator.
> > The problem is inside the cell, so, no amount of
> > BMS could prevent the problem.
>
> I wrote about this precise problem with the LiIon cylindrical cells upon
> my return from the 2006 Advancements in Battery Technology & Power
> Management conference in April.
>
> It appears *inevitable* that there will be failures of this sort
> regardless of the manufacturer, although the frequency/likelihood is
> dramatically higher with less well-controlled manufacturing processes
> such as are often associated with lower-cost Chinese production.
>
> The safer cell chemistries may contain the damage to the single
> defective cell rather than proceeding into an uncontrolled combustion of
> neighbouring cells as well, but the issue seems to remain that the
> cyclindrical cells are prone to this sort of internal shorting, and
> there is nothing an external BMS can do about it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
do you know the price of Kokams own BMS? I´ve tried to find it out
from Kokam and their finnish distributor without results.
I´m also confused about their PCM (Protection Circuit Module) and
BMS. Are they two different things (PCM cheaper, offering minimun
protection for cells, BMS more advanced giving information to the
driver also), or does the BMS consist of several PCMs?
Thanks,
Osmo Sarin
Don Cameron kirjoitti 24.8.2006 kello 20.01:
3) An inexpensive BMS for lithium cells. For a 300V system based
on Kokam,
it would require 70-80 cells. The currently available BMS for this
is way
too expensive.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just used the existing core housing, and all has
been fine.
As far as switching the elements, I'm gathering you're
using two, b/c I just used the blower as my heat
regulator, ie, the harder it pushes air, the more
current I use on the heater, and the more heat I get.
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well the sun is starting to go down here in Land of
> the Midnight Sun and I'm getting ready to fit the
> ceramic heater elements into
> the old heater core plenum. Does anyone have
> recommendations on what material to use to house the
> ceramic elements. I don't
> recall what past posters have said about the max
> temp the housing has to withstand. I'm running a
> 192V pack and planned on
> switching half the elements separately for medium
> and hi settings. It looks as if using aluminum and
> shorting across the aluminum
> fins wouldn't be a good idea.
>
> I'll be putting .33mF and 39 ohm 5W resistors across
> the relay contacts for snubbers per Ryan Bohm's nice
> writeup.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Now, as the movable lens rotates, the pair of plastic lenses goes from
> transparent to opaque. Power the LED (thru a resistor). You will get a
> nice, smooth change in the resistance of the phototransistor, without it
> being bothered by dust or scratches on the lenses.
That's even better!
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
However, I can see where the alternator off the tail shaft could be used
as regenerative braking (with a dash switch override for cruising or
night time driving)
Tie the field to the brake light and to the clutch switch, if you have
one. When braking it charges and when shifting it helps pull the rpm
down for a faster,smoother shift. The problem with this is the windage
losses are also high, ie even without an electrical load, alternators
suck some power. Running a newer(internal fan) high amp alternator at a
lower speed would help reduce that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Capacity of lithiums is normally stated at the 1C discharge - although
depends on manufacture, some use 1/2C.
Lithiums do of course vary capacity based on discharge rate but as stated
it's not a Peukert's factor as that relates to Pb cells only. Generally
called a discharge curve.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 10:56 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 18650 specs question...
> I have a question about the specs for the 18650's. The specs say:
>
> Size: 18650 (Cylindrical)
> Capacity: 2400 mAh
> Chemistry: Lithium Ion (Li-Ion)
> Max Charging current: 1C (2.4A)
> Max Discharging current: 2.5C (5A)
> Charge Current: 1150 mA Voltage: 4.2v End Current: 50 mA
> Discharge Current: 460 mA End Voltage: 3.0V
> Voltage: 3.6V
> Peak Voltage: 4.2V
>
> I take it that the capacity is the C1 rate and not the C20 rate. Is
that
> right?
>
I don't think lithiums have a Peukert's factor, which varies the
capacity based on discharge rate.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am gonna say that I love the digest mode of this list. What makes this
list great is the long running history of great people. We need to be
carefull not to dilute this. Everyone can read simple text, I forward
the whole digest to myself or transfer to my phone on occasion to read
later and archiving text is simple
One of the problems with the web is the assumption everyone is reading
email or surfing with a screaming windows desktop machine.
a side note: Over time, people creating websites have gone to flash
menus and eliminated any sort of backup. I generally block flash, I
can't tolerate the abuse on some sites and I have one machine that has
trouble with flash, while I have the ability to walk over to another
machine when it is really worth it, I shouldn't be forced to have a
flash wrapped AOL player to watch a simple mpg, just so I can see their
ads and use their navigation, my player has navigation.
ok, so I have an eclectic mix
in order of usage
daily
AMD64 running gentoo linux
pIII-900 gentoo linux
2.8Ghz AMD redhat FC5
XP2200 gentoo linux(server)
and the one windows machine I use, my phone on a PXA270
ocasionally
solaris 10 on 6 processor sparc and a old sparcstatioon 20
Rarely
windows XP on my DVR machine celeron
AMD xp1700 running windows(takes up deskspace)
2.4ghz notebookl winxp
While slightly off-topic, and I apologize for that, I would like to
point out I don't see half of the youtube links provided, too much
hassle and garbage and to thank the recent posting of that greenwood
video from a real site.(ie video link links to video) KISS
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great news Jerry. I can't wait to see one in person, unfortunately I am
on the left coast.
You asked why some of us are not going into production. I am working on
the design of a complete EV, I currently have no money, designing is
cheap. I am working on sub-systems right now but when I get to the
chassis/body you can bet I will call you!!
Keep up the great work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike, all
Video camera batteries are charged and I'll grab as many vids as I can. As
for the cops I just hope they aint going from Redmond as it'll make my trip
over an hour longer, LMAO!
Got to motivate
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Somebody puhleeeze get some video for those of us stuck at home waiting for
the posts to filter through the list. I'm sure it'll
be an EVentful showing. Of course I don't have to tell you to have fun. I sent
some family of some of my co-workers to watch you
guys waste your tires. They were amazed by the antics caught on tape of Zombie
v. Portland's finest. I wonder if some of those
cops will be around. They probably traded leave to pull duty there. I'd do the
same if I had some to trade.
Enjoy
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Otmar
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 10:15 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: NEDRA News: Late Night Nationals
>
>
> >Echoing Jim Husted, John Wayland's and Roy LeMeur's enthusiasm for
> >the Late Night Nationals, I hope everyone can make it out. Jim will
> >have at least 3 of his new motors in vehicles racing and others on
> >hand for people to see up close.
>
>
> Hey Chip,
> Great job on the graphics! Very nice.
>
> I've just finished bench testing a couple Z2K-EHV's so I'll be
> bringing one of them (in the 914 of course) to the races Friday and
> Saturday for the Late Night Nationals. This way some lucky customer
> will get a truly "race tested" controller. ;)
>
> I'm sure looking forward to it, it promises to be a fantastic weekend!
> See you all there.
> --
> -Otmar-
> 914 EV, California Poppy,
> http://evcl.com/914/
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> Now accepting resumes. Please see:
> http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
>
>
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/23/06, Adrian DeLeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Robert, there already too many forums for EVs. <snip>
> This list is very popular and although this list uses older technology,
> it works. <snip>
> I do not see the benefit of yet another forum.
I have witnessed the aversion to a web based list. But I would argue that
there are many benefits when compared to a mailing list - especially for
dial-up users (I was stuck on dial-up for the last 1.5 years). A *general*
EV list with good search capability and a skilled moderator or two could
easily cut down on repeated posts, the endless quoting, etc.
Some benefits:
1) Discussion categories - so you can browse what's relevant for YOU.
2) Sticky posts - Great place to keep info for the Noobs, battery specs,
controller specs, etc.
3) Advanced searches - search by topic, poster, keyword, date, etc.
4) Automatic threading - follow a discussion without unwanted junk between
posts.
5) No need to search archives to find the beginning of a discussion.
6) Automatic notification if someone replies to a post you make.
The problem is that your list of advantages presumes a poor e-mail client.
Personally, I got a gmail account and subscribed it to evlist. gmail
groups all messages into threads automatically, and puts all the
messages onto one page, just like many web products do. It can do
advanced searches by subject, poster, keyword, etc. Because of the
threading there's no need to search archives to find the beginning of
a discussion. And also because of the threading, it's reasonably easy
to skip over threads I don't care about.
Now, you mention "sticky posts", which I will grant you is an
advantage. But if you really want to make that useful, it's best to
design a site with that sort of information, and allow people to edit
it, something more like wikipedia.org, rather than a discussion board
site. For example, consider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle as a good
example of a lot of useless information, in one spot, that anyone
could contribute to.
Also, I want to echo Phillippe's suggestion that you should have asked
people here first. I'm sure that at least one of us would have
recalled the experience of the Yahoo! Zappy list, which did
successfully switch over to web-based. They are currently at:
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php
Given that the "Voltage Forum", as that is called, has electric car
sections, I think perhaps those who prefer that format should just go
there.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike, I used the existing heater housing. Since it is plastic, I also
put in over temperature switches to help prevent a meltdown in case of a
failure.
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater_install.html
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: August 24, 2006 9:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Heater Core Replacement
Well the sun is starting to go down here in Land of the Midnight Sun and I'm
getting ready to fit the ceramic heater elements into the old heater core
plenum. Does anyone have recommendations on what material to use to house
the ceramic elements. I don't recall what past posters have said about the
max temp the housing has to withstand. I'm running a 192V pack and planned
on switching half the elements separately for medium and hi settings. It
looks as if using aluminum and shorting across the aluminum fins wouldn't be
a good idea.
I'll be putting .33mF and 39 ohm 5W resistors across the relay contacts for
snubbers per Ryan Bohm's nice writeup.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A gentleman on the list is willing to sell me a 72-to-12 volt converter,
brand-new for a good price.
This is perfect for my 72 volt Comuta Van.
I've opted for the converter for two reasons:
1. I want the education of using and installing this device so when I make a
real EV someday, I know how to tie it in, and all that stuff.
2. I don't want to modify all the accessory wiring. The pre-previous owner
left enough of a mess with some of the wiring when he replaced the
contactors with the Curtis controller.
Based on all the wiring possibilities I've seen, I've opted to tie the
converter output to the accessory battery instead of directly connecting it
to the accessories and dumping the battery because if the converter fails,
I'll still have the battery to get me home, and if I read correctly, this
will reduce the load on the traction pack as the accessory battery takes the
load part-time.
Lee, as my fellow Comuta-Van owner if you see any errors in my plan, please
let me know.
So far, I'm enjoying the improved reliablity and improvements I've made to
the vehicle:
1. The low-rated original contactor that the pre-previous owner used to
connect the controller to the traction pack was replaced with a 700 amp
Kilovac contactor.
2. The brush holder assembly on my 25 year old GE 6.7" 12hp motor used
carbuerator return-type springs. These rusted and snapped of and caused
damage to the brush holder. I've replaced it with newer style that uses the
Comuta-car/flat, coiled-up style of spring.
3. Since the Comuta vehicles were nearly all plastic, I've mounted a big
amplifier heatsink to my controller and mounted a large computer fan on the
inside of the forward battery pod cover to blow on the controller. No more
whine from the 1221b controller when it sounds the overheat alarm!
4. The original gasoline heater was gone when I bought the C-van. I wouldn't
want it anyway. Sounds scary! I've built a blower box with ducts to connect
to the defroster vents. Where can I get these ceramic elements you guys are
using for heaters and how can I wire them up?
5. Lastly, I'm building a passenger seat since US Postal vehicles didn't
have passenger seats.
All this work for a low-voltage plastic truck I know...but I did it for the
education. That way when I build a bigger, badder EV hopefully I'll have a
clue.
Rich A.
Maryland
'81 C-Van
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Spaces is here! Its easy to create your own personal Web site.
http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Jerry. Do you have to do a crash test to meet FMVSS? Is there some
exemption for limited production cars?
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom EV update
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:45:32 -0500
Hi Lee and All,
Thanks for the kind words. It hasn't been easy
but it's slowly coming together.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: Freedom EV update
>jerryd wrote:
>> The Freedom all composite chassis has been completed, and
>> [am] now mating it to the body with Lee Hart's excellent
>help.
>
>Thanks, Jerry! It was great to see the Freedom at last, as
>well as all the other neat stuff at your place. Jerry is
>really "into" 3-wheelers -- there are *dozen* of them
>there. 3-wheel bikes, 3-wheel personal mobility scooters,
>3-wheel Honda "leaning" motorcycles, three versions of his
>3-wheel "Woody", and of course the Freedom itself.
I figured if I tried every type of 3wheeler, it was
the best way to learn about them. And at one time or
another, I commuted 12 miles 1 way to Tampa in most of them
for yrs . All electric except the tilting Honda Gyros, about
the best handling, braking bike around. Too bad they only go
37mph.
>
>The Freedom is what I came to see. The body looks very
>good. Streamlined, but all simple curves like the R.Q.
>Riley vehicles. It's bigger than I thought; about 5 feet
>wide, 5 feet high, and 11 feet long. The door and window
>openings haven't been cut out yet, so it is very rigid. It
>is two layers of fiberglass with a foam core. Feels like it
>weighs around 150 lbs.
125 lbs for the body and 190 for the chassis though
next time I'll use a different, much lighter core, cutting
25 or so lbs. So the next one should be about 290lbs for the
composite part.
It's now at the correct ground height with
windows/doors, ect, marked or cut out and it looks hot!! I
didn't realize how wide it looks until when it was down low.
About 4'7" high once at it's correct ride height.
Still taller than many cars as I believe to see and be seen
is a big safety factor.
>
>I helped him finish up the chassis. It too is all
>fiberglass, with a 3/4" foam core. Basically, it consists
>of two big boxes; the interior and the battery box. The
>battery box is about 32" x 30", right between the two front
>wheels, and big enough for twelve golf cart batteries. The
>interior is about 4' x 5', very roomy, and with a large
>shelf above the rear wheel for storage. It weighted about
>190 lbs. I'm eyeballing these dimensions; Jerry can provide
>the actual numbers.
You are very close, 33x32 for the one battery
compartment and 15x33+ for the other. Lots of battery
space!! I'm using a special, heavy core to increase crash
protection which should be about as good as a compact car.
The main reason for the special suspension system was
to give room for batteries.
>
>When I left, Jerry was trimming and fitting the body and
>chassis together. It should be an amazingly rigid structure
>when finished.
Especially for the weight, built aircraft style. But
that's the only way to get 60% battery weight for very long
range at a modest cost.
It was a bear to mate them, lifting it up,
cutting/sanding again and again until they finally fit. Now
I have some adjustments for the next one!! Hopefully this
weekend my help and I will epoxy them together.
So much work!!! I lost 10 lbs during the 10 days
around Lee's visit!! Best diet I've had in yrs. ;^D It took
me several days to recover afterward but did much better
than I could last yr.
Boy I'll be glad when all I have to do is pick up the
telephone, say build another one. I'll have 3 or 4
subcontractors being paid piece work to build them once the
first 2 are done to figure out how to do it ;^D
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Polarized lenses! Brilliant!
I used to play with two pairs of polarized sunglasses as a kid -- why
didn't I think of this?
Lee, did you see my message WRT the 5K potbox wiring? Was I correct in
stating that you could feed a low-output-impedance voltage source into
the potbox control?
Lee Hart wrote:
Eric Poulsen wrote:
You can do it with a disk that's variably tinted around
its circumference, paired with a CDS cell, but getting the
resistance right (especially the low resistance) is difficult.
This isn't all that difficult. You can buy an opto-interrupter module
for less than $1. It consists of an LED and a phototransistor, with
about a 1/8" wide air gap between them.
Get two pieces of polarized plastic, such as the lenses from a cheap
pair of polarized sunglasses. Glue a piece of one in the gap. Mount the
other piece on a shaft (such as the shaft of a bad pot from a Curtis
potbox :-)
Now, as the movable lens rotates, the pair of plastic lenses goes from
transparent to opaque. Power the LED (thru a resistor). You will get a
nice, smooth change in the resistance of the phototransistor, without it
being bothered by dust or scratches on the lenses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Mike. I built an aluminum channel frame to fit into the stock heater
housing, then just used GE Silicone sealer to fill in the gap to the elements
The sealer is good for up to 400 degrees F. The ceramic elements should never
get that high (most limit at around 190). You don't really need a high and low
setting, since the elements put out more heat with more airflow. I have mine
set up so that all the elements are on with the relay, then I control
temperature with airflow via the stock heater air diverter and fan speed.
>Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:28:25 -0800
>From: Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Heater Core Replacement
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Well the sun is starting to go down here in Land of the Midnight Sun and I'm
>>getting ready to fit the ceramic heater elements into
>the old heater core plenum. Does anyone have recommendations on what >material
>to use to house the ceramic elements. I don't
>recall what past posters have said about the max temp the housing has to
>>withstand. I'm running a 192V pack and planned on
>switching half the elements separately for medium and hi settings. It looks
>>as if using aluminum and shorting across the aluminum
>fins wouldn't be a good idea.
>I'll be putting .33mF and 39 ohm 5W resistors across the relay contacts for
>>snubbers per Ryan Bohm's nice writeup.
>Mike,
>Anchorage, Ak.
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> there are a few places where an electrical/mechanical hobbyist
> can make some money:
>
> 1) High performance AC controller and motor.
> 2) Lithium battery modules.
> 3) An inexpensive BMS for lithium cells.
These sound to me like very complex products to design, that will be
very expensive to make, and only sell to very small market. Not exactly
the formula to make money!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FMVSS (in the US) does not require physical crash testing if it can be
proved via computer simulations. To do this work all car information must
be in CAD, then delivered to a certification engineering organization. The
cost of this service is in the range of $550k - $1m.
Another alternative, which circumvents the crash testing is to sell the cars
as kits. Then the purchaser assembles the kits and has the kit inspected by
the local MV dept.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Maston
Sent: August 25, 2006 7:58 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Freedom EV Crash Test?
Hi, Jerry. Do you have to do a crash test to meet FMVSS? Is there some
exemption for limited production cars?
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom EV update
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:45:32 -0500
Hi Lee and All,
Thanks for the kind words. It hasn't been easy but it's slowly coming
together.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: Freedom EV update
>jerryd wrote:
>> The Freedom all composite chassis has been completed, and [am] now
>> mating it to the body with Lee Hart's excellent
>help.
>
>Thanks, Jerry! It was great to see the Freedom at last, as well as all
>the other neat stuff at your place. Jerry is really "into" 3-wheelers
>-- there are *dozen* of them there. 3-wheel bikes, 3-wheel personal
>mobility scooters, 3-wheel Honda "leaning" motorcycles, three versions
>of his 3-wheel "Woody", and of course the Freedom itself.
I figured if I tried every type of 3wheeler, it was the best way to learn
about them. And at one time or another, I commuted 12 miles 1 way to Tampa
in most of them for yrs . All electric except the tilting Honda Gyros, about
the best handling, braking bike around. Too bad they only go 37mph.
>
>The Freedom is what I came to see. The body looks very good.
>Streamlined, but all simple curves like the R.Q.
>Riley vehicles. It's bigger than I thought; about 5 feet wide, 5 feet
>high, and 11 feet long. The door and window openings haven't been cut
>out yet, so it is very rigid. It is two layers of fiberglass with a
>foam core. Feels like it weighs around 150 lbs.
125 lbs for the body and 190 for the chassis though next time I'll use a
different, much lighter core, cutting
25 or so lbs. So the next one should be about 290lbs for the composite part.
It's now at the correct ground height with windows/doors, ect, marked or cut
out and it looks hot!! I didn't realize how wide it looks until when it was
down low.
About 4'7" high once at it's correct ride height.
Still taller than many cars as I believe to see and be seen is a big safety
factor.
>
>I helped him finish up the chassis. It too is all fiberglass, with a
>3/4" foam core. Basically, it consists of two big boxes; the interior
>and the battery box. The battery box is about 32" x 30", right between
>the two front wheels, and big enough for twelve golf cart batteries.
>The interior is about 4' x 5', very roomy, and with a large shelf above
>the rear wheel for storage. It weighted about 190 lbs. I'm eyeballing
>these dimensions; Jerry can provide the actual numbers.
You are very close, 33x32 for the one battery compartment and 15x33+ for the
other. Lots of battery space!! I'm using a special, heavy core to increase
crash protection which should be about as good as a compact car.
The main reason for the special suspension system was to give room for
batteries.
>
>When I left, Jerry was trimming and fitting the body and chassis
>together. It should be an amazingly rigid structure when finished.
Especially for the weight, built aircraft style. But that's the only way to
get 60% battery weight for very long range at a modest cost.
It was a bear to mate them, lifting it up, cutting/sanding again and again
until they finally fit. Now I have some adjustments for the next one!!
Hopefully this weekend my help and I will epoxy them together.
So much work!!! I lost 10 lbs during the 10 days around Lee's visit!! Best
diet I've had in yrs. ;^D It took me several days to recover afterward but
did much better than I could last yr.
Boy I'll be glad when all I have to do is pick up the telephone, say build
another one. I'll have 3 or 4 subcontractors being paid piece work to build
them once the first 2 are done to figure out how to do it ;^D
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
> So I went the "best" route (IMHO) and used an older Todd
> AC>DC converter (as a DC>DC) and completely tossed the 12v system
> battery. (Note: you can only do this if your DC>DC can handle your
> total 12v system load and if you can get away a complete
> shutdown if it fails.)
Note that there are a few other caveats to this approach:
- you can only do this if your DC/DC is beefy enough to handle the peak
loads your 12V system may place on it without shutting down/browning
out/failing
- if there is a failure of the DC/DC or a failure in the traciton system
(even something as simple as a fuse opening), you will be left without
12V power. This could be quite important safety-wise if driving at
night (no driving/head/emergency flasher lights), and will almost
certainly leave you stranded since most of our vehicles rely on the 12V
system to power the contactor(s) that connect our traction pack to the
motor controller. You would have to be equipped to tap your pack to
power the main contactor(s) just to move the vehicle in the event of a
DC/DC failure.
Paul's approach is the *lightest*, but I would strongly suggest the use
of some sort of 12V battery on the output of the DC/DC to hold up the
output for peak loads and to sustain the 12V rail for at least a short
time in the event of a DC/DC failure.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Freedom EV is a three-wheeler. Therefore it is a motorcycle; not a car.
Motorcycles are exempt from FMVSS crash testing.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
GE I-5
Blossvale, NY
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Patrick Maston
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 10:58 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Freedom EV Crash Test?
>
> Hi, Jerry. Do you have to do a crash test to meet FMVSS? Is there some
> exemption for limited production cars?
>
>
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FMVSS I don't believe is required for Motorcycles. Since the FreedomEV by
definition is one with only 3 wheels wouldn't it be exempt anyways?
I talked to my sheriff and he was interested in the whole thing but did say
by the book I may arguably need a helmet even with it enclosed and I would
definately need a motorcycle insignia on my liscense which I already have. He
did believe I would never get a ticket for the helmet unless I was instigating
with an officer and they needed an excuse.
Can't wait to get mine myself. I might be able to get the mayor to ride in
it on our very popular July 4th parade.
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 10:43:59 AM
Subject: RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
FMVSS (in the US) does not require physical crash testing if it can be
proved via computer simulations. To do this work all car information must
be in CAD, then delivered to a certification engineering organization. The
cost of this service is in the range of $550k - $1m.
Another alternative, which circumvents the crash testing is to sell the cars
as kits. Then the purchaser assembles the kits and has the kit inspected by
the local MV dept.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Maston
Sent: August 25, 2006 7:58 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Freedom EV Crash Test?
Hi, Jerry. Do you have to do a crash test to meet FMVSS? Is there some
exemption for limited production cars?
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom EV update
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:45:32 -0500
Hi Lee and All,
Thanks for the kind words. It hasn't been easy but it's slowly coming
together.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: Freedom EV update
>jerryd wrote:
>> The Freedom all composite chassis has been completed, and [am] now
>> mating it to the body with Lee Hart's excellent
>help.
>
>Thanks, Jerry! It was great to see the Freedom at last, as well as all
>the other neat stuff at your place. Jerry is really "into" 3-wheelers
>-- there are *dozen* of them there. 3-wheel bikes, 3-wheel personal
>mobility scooters, 3-wheel Honda "leaning" motorcycles, three versions
>of his 3-wheel "Woody", and of course the Freedom itself.
I figured if I tried every type of 3wheeler, it was the best way to learn
about them. And at one time or another, I commuted 12 miles 1 way to Tampa
in most of them for yrs . All electric except the tilting Honda Gyros, about
the best handling, braking bike around. Too bad they only go 37mph.
>
>The Freedom is what I came to see. The body looks very good.
>Streamlined, but all simple curves like the R.Q.
>Riley vehicles. It's bigger than I thought; about 5 feet wide, 5 feet
>high, and 11 feet long. The door and window openings haven't been cut
>out yet, so it is very rigid. It is two layers of fiberglass with a
>foam core. Feels like it weighs around 150 lbs.
125 lbs for the body and 190 for the chassis though next time I'll use a
different, much lighter core, cutting
25 or so lbs. So the next one should be about 290lbs for the composite part.
It's now at the correct ground height with windows/doors, ect, marked or cut
out and it looks hot!! I didn't realize how wide it looks until when it was
down low.
About 4'7" high once at it's correct ride height.
Still taller than many cars as I believe to see and be seen is a big safety
factor.
>
>I helped him finish up the chassis. It too is all fiberglass, with a
>3/4" foam core. Basically, it consists of two big boxes; the interior
>and the battery box. The battery box is about 32" x 30", right between
>the two front wheels, and big enough for twelve golf cart batteries.
>The interior is about 4' x 5', very roomy, and with a large shelf above
>the rear wheel for storage. It weighted about 190 lbs. I'm eyeballing
>these dimensions; Jerry can provide the actual numbers.
You are very close, 33x32 for the one battery compartment and 15x33+ for the
other. Lots of battery space!! I'm using a special, heavy core to increase
crash protection which should be about as good as a compact car.
The main reason for the special suspension system was to give room for
batteries.
>
>When I left, Jerry was trimming and fitting the body and chassis
>together. It should be an amazingly rigid structure when finished.
Especially for the weight, built aircraft style. But that's the only way to
get 60% battery weight for very long range at a modest cost.
It was a bear to mate them, lifting it up, cutting/sanding again and again
until they finally fit. Now I have some adjustments for the next one!!
Hopefully this weekend my help and I will epoxy them together.
So much work!!! I lost 10 lbs during the 10 days around Lee's visit!! Best
diet I've had in yrs. ;^D It took me several days to recover afterward but
did much better than I could last yr.
Boy I'll be glad when all I have to do is pick up the telephone, say build
another one. I'll have 3 or 4 subcontractors being paid piece work to build
them once the first 2 are done to figure out how to do it ;^D
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right, I was getting Freedom EV mixed up with Jerry's plans to rebuild the
Solectria Sunrise.
For Patrick's other question: there is no FMVSS exemption for a limited run
of production cars. If you want to build one car and sell it (as a
production car), you must have it crash tested. As others point out, this
does not apply to 3 wheel vehicles in the US.
A couple of interesting points for Canadians though:
- three wheel vehicles are included in a number of the Canadian Motor
Vehicle Regulations, a completely different ball game up here.
- Canada requires physical crash testing
- Canada does not allow the import of kit cars (although there are ways
around this)
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Hastings
Sent: August 25, 2006 9:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom EV Crash Test?
FMVSS I don't believe is required for Motorcycles. Since the FreedomEV
by definition is one with only 3 wheels wouldn't it be exempt anyways?
I talked to my sheriff and he was interested in the whole thing but did
say by the book I may arguably need a helmet even with it enclosed and I
would definately need a motorcycle insignia on my liscense which I already
have. He did believe I would never get a ticket for the helmet unless I was
instigating with an officer and they needed an excuse.
Can't wait to get mine myself. I might be able to get the mayor to ride
in it on our very popular July 4th parade.
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 10:43:59 AM
Subject: RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
FMVSS (in the US) does not require physical crash testing if it can be
proved via computer simulations. To do this work all car information must
be in CAD, then delivered to a certification engineering organization. The
cost of this service is in the range of $550k - $1m.
Another alternative, which circumvents the crash testing is to sell the cars
as kits. Then the purchaser assembles the kits and has the kit inspected by
the local MV dept.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Maston
Sent: August 25, 2006 7:58 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Freedom EV Crash Test?
Hi, Jerry. Do you have to do a crash test to meet FMVSS? Is there some
exemption for limited production cars?
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Freedom EV update
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:45:32 -0500
Hi Lee and All,
Thanks for the kind words. It hasn't been easy but it's slowly coming
together.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: Freedom EV update
>jerryd wrote:
>> The Freedom all composite chassis has been completed, and [am] now
>> mating it to the body with Lee Hart's excellent
>help.
>
>Thanks, Jerry! It was great to see the Freedom at last, as well as all
>the other neat stuff at your place. Jerry is really "into" 3-wheelers
>-- there are *dozen* of them there. 3-wheel bikes, 3-wheel personal
>mobility scooters, 3-wheel Honda "leaning" motorcycles, three versions
>of his 3-wheel "Woody", and of course the Freedom itself.
I figured if I tried every type of 3wheeler, it was the best way to learn
about them. And at one time or another, I commuted 12 miles 1 way to Tampa
in most of them for yrs . All electric except the tilting Honda Gyros, about
the best handling, braking bike around. Too bad they only go 37mph.
>
>The Freedom is what I came to see. The body looks very good.
>Streamlined, but all simple curves like the R.Q.
>Riley vehicles. It's bigger than I thought; about 5 feet wide, 5 feet
>high, and 11 feet long. The door and window openings haven't been cut
>out yet, so it is very rigid. It is two layers of fiberglass with a
>foam core. Feels like it weighs around 150 lbs.
125 lbs for the body and 190 for the chassis though next time I'll use a
different, much lighter core, cutting
25 or so lbs. So the next one should be about 290lbs for the composite part.
It's now at the correct ground height with windows/doors, ect, marked or cut
out and it looks hot!! I didn't realize how wide it looks until when it was
down low.
About 4'7" high once at it's correct ride height.
Still taller than many cars as I believe to see and be seen is a big safety
factor.
>
>I helped him finish up the chassis. It too is all fiberglass, with a
>3/4" foam core. Basically, it consists of two big boxes; the interior
>and the battery box. The battery box is about 32" x 30", right between
>the two front wheels, and big enough for twelve golf cart batteries.
>The interior is about 4' x 5', very roomy, and with a large shelf above
>the rear wheel for storage. It weighted about 190 lbs. I'm eyeballing
>these dimensions; Jerry can provide the actual numbers.
You are very close, 33x32 for the one battery compartment and 15x33+ for the
other. Lots of battery space!! I'm using a special, heavy core to increase
crash protection which should be about as good as a compact car.
The main reason for the special suspension system was to give room for
batteries.
>
>When I left, Jerry was trimming and fitting the body and chassis
>together. It should be an amazingly rigid structure when finished.
Especially for the weight, built aircraft style. But that's the only way to
get 60% battery weight for very long range at a modest cost.
It was a bear to mate them, lifting it up, cutting/sanding again and again
until they finally fit. Now I have some adjustments for the next one!!
Hopefully this weekend my help and I will epoxy them together.
So much work!!! I lost 10 lbs during the 10 days around Lee's visit!! Best
diet I've had in yrs. ;^D It took me several days to recover afterward but
did much better than I could last yr.
Boy I'll be glad when all I have to do is pick up the telephone, say build
another one. I'll have 3 or 4 subcontractors being paid piece work to build
them once the first 2 are done to figure out how to do it ;^D
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
