EV Digest 5861
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Dodge D50 conversion
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: [uselectricar] BB600/USE truck update
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Karmann Ghia conversion - autostick
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: When will it AIR - When will it be Published
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Dodge D50 conversion
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: battery spreadsheet
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 1991 Suzuki VX800 Free project bike
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Noise suppression: effect of bundling wires
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: battery spreadsheet
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Badsey Racer for sale- Modified for power - $1850
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: When will it AIR - When will it be Published
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: battery spreadsheet
by Jeremy Rutman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Dodge D50 conversion
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Battery choice and range
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Battery choice and range
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Karmann Ghia conversion - autostick
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: battery spreadsheet
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Generator Trailer
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Battery choice and range
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
by "Chelsea Sexton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: copper-graphite ratio
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bought it, traded her a computer (had 3 I built) and $110 for it, :op
2WD, 88 model, grill says it's a Ram 50
manual steering, vacuum assist brakes
4 speed standard, shift in the floor
gotta pull the seat and see if I can lower it a couple inches, I almost
scalped myself getting out of it, 0-0 dang door frame is too small, lol
needs a windshield and a couple of tires to go on the back
heck, it runs pretty good, hadn't started in months, she hopped in and it
started right up
thing is, it gets hot, I think they put the thermostat in upside down when
the were working on it, probably be able to sell the motor for a few bucks
----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Dodge D50 conversion
You can also search the Mitsubishi MightyMax listings, same truck.
Mine's at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756
The 5-speed Mitsubishi comes with a KM132 tranny for 2WD and KM145 tranny
for 4WD.
The Dodge version uses the FM132 and FM145 tranny's (built for Ford by
Mitsubishi).
As far as I know they are the same machines except the FM- versions have a
removable bellhousing.
Is your donor a 2WD or 4WD? You might check with Mike Brown at
ElectroAuto. Unless he reused the material he has an adaptor plate that
will fit a 2WD transmission. I received it only to find out the hard way
that the 4WD tranny has slightly larger spacing between all the bolt
holes. If it is a 4WD then they have a template which I drew and
submitted to his library for the KM145 bellhousing template.
When searching the small trucks I found the Mitsu/D50 was the lightest by
far (excepting the VW, Datsun and Chevy Luv mini trucks). All the S-10's
I found around here were automatic. The Rangers have less space between
the frame rails and all the Toyota's were beat to S%&#. It turned out to
be a real easy conversion. I was initially going to tackle putting the
batteries under the bed but with the cold weather problems I would shortly
have to deal with decided to initially start out with an insulated box
inside the bed.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark McCurdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, September 11, 2006 4:21 am
Subject: Dodge D50 conversion
To: [email protected]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is a bad address (evalbum) wanted to ask his
advice on
converting a D50 I'm getting for $400
Anyone have links to others that have converted this truck?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have a garage/carport? If so, how about some pulleys and rope
connected to the rafters. For safety's sake, drive/push the truck out
from under the bed while it's raised.
> Anyone in MD want to drop by my house this weekend or next and help me
> water a string of NiCDs? Free ride afterwards. It should be a 1 hour
> operation if I can get someone to help me lift off the bed (it's not
> heavy, just bulky)
>
> Chris
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> However, the big deal
> breaker on a manual transmission installation is fact that the
> factory did not put a tube inside the center tunnel for the clutch
> cable to run through. Installing such a tube is an expensive
> proposition. You would also have to install a pedal cluster with a
> clutch pedal.
Or go clutchless. Wouldn't be the first EV without a clutch.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Steve and All,
Steven Lough wrote:
This is Really Important.... To John W. and Killowatt...
Let the LIST know ( in advance ) when that PBS spot will air.
As requested....SBS Dateline is airing the show Wednesday, 9-13-06 in
Australia. I've been in contact with SBS Dateline and just today, I
received an email from them saying my DVD copy is being sent to me. My
Aussie friends will get to see the show before I do, so all you down
under, feel free to let us know how it goes. For those in the states,
the show 'will' be aired on a cable network called 'Link TV' this Sunday
the 17th at 8:00 pm Eastern time. Here's the link to 'Link TV':
http://www.worldlinktv.org/programming/programDescription.php4?code=date
Here' the link to Dateline where they're showing the promo for this
week's show:
http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/
And John... Keep in contact with the Writer from Car-n-Driver so we
can be sure to buy an issue when the story hits the News Stands...
Again, as requested....I just received an email from Ted West of Car and
Driver, saying he's writing the story this week. Ted writes:
>"They haven't scheduled it for a specific issue yet, which is often
the case with stories that aren't "dated."
He says he'll let me know as soon as he knows when they decide to run it.
Thanks for the interest.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 2WD, 88 model, grill says it's a Ram 50
> manual steering, vacuum assist brakes
> 4 speed standard, shift in the floor
> gotta pull the seat and see if I can lower it a couple inches, I almost
> scalped myself getting out of it, 0-0 dang door frame is too small, lol
>
> needs a windshield and a couple of tires to go on the back
> heck, it runs pretty good, hadn't started in months, she hopped in
and it
> started right up
> thing is, it gets hot, I think they put the thermostat in upside
down when
> the were working on it, probably be able to sell the motor for a few
bucks
>
Aw, heck, if you're already gonna fix stuff on it, run it as your long
distance ICE alternative, and get a NON-running one for conversion,
but I guess you'll find someone who needs a good motor when you take
it out!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also be careful about trusting spec sheets out there, as they can be
quite a bit out of date or (unintentionally, I'm sure) misleading. Be
especially careful to pay attention to part numbers rather than "brand
names" as two identically branded batteries may have quite different
guts.
I'm trying to evaluate batteries right now and have already had to
revise my calculations a few times because I was going off of spec
sheets I had found on the net. The biggest shocker was when I
realized the "Deka Intimidators" I had been looking at were only rated
at 55Ah whereas the "Deka Intimidators" a friend was trying to
recommend were actually rated at 158Ah, IIRC. Big difference given
they're otherwise similar 12V AGM batteries. Of course, different
part numbers.
But don't take my advice. I'm a rank newb. There are quite a few
veterans on the list with the battle scars to prove it who will give
you similar advice, I'll wager.
Matt
On 9/11/06, Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Here's the CalCars battery spreadsheet:
http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf
Here's the stale, incomplete and non-defect-free
battery analysis I did a couple of years ago:
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/13.htm
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/specificpe.gif
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/costvsenergy.gif
One thing to add to my analysis would be shelf life
--the cost vs. cycle info is correct if you use it up
fast enough, but warm climates may wear out batteries
faster.
Chris Jones
Santa Rosa, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/733
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DO NOT CONTACT LAWRENCE RHODES
Suzuki VX800. I really liked how if felt but I'm looking for more of the
Intruder/Virago/Rebel style. If some one wanted to do a 120v system with
26ah Hawkers this bike could easily hold it and a large motor. I don't know
what the final drive is but it's shaft drive. CONTACT JOHN 415-665-5045
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I was to his house and saw the bike. It has some
corrosion but it is complete. It would make a great EV. Nice styling.
Funny bike. Harley style motor and Sport Bike looks. Final drive is 3.09
to 1. Is that dooable? Lawrence Rhodes...
http://www.suzukicycles.org/1990-1999/1991a.shtml URL To a picture of the
Model.
> Call 4156655045
>
> -john
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shielding doesn't do anything to reduce inductance, or the noise being
generated. It works by blocking the noise from escaping. The shield
works when there is ZERO current in the shield itself. Often, it is
grounded at only one point to insure that there is zero current in it.
I am going to try to clear the above statement up. I use a lot of shielded
cable in circuits that carry data or audio. When we use shielded cable in a
data loop for addressable fire alarms, it does both jobs. It keeps the noise
of the data from bleeding out into other circuits. But at the same time
keeps the EMI noise from the florescent lights or other electrical circuits
from bleeding in to the circuit and corrupting the data on the loop. The
other place we have to use shielded cable is in school intercom systems.
When an intercom call is made from the office to the room, the audio is at a
higher voltage signal generally around 25volts. The shielding is not
necessary in this situation. But when the room responds and talks back to
the speaker on the class room wall, the speaker then becomes a microphone.
This audio signal is a very low voltage (under 1 volt) signal and is highly
amplified by the intercom system so it can be heard. If the wire is
unshielded the EMI noise that is inducted into the circuit is also amplified
making communications buzzy at best and unusable at worse.
Shielded cable will have a foil shield covering the insulated conductors and
a bear conductor running with the shield. We call this bear conductor the
"drain" wire because it drains the EMI noise off and gives it somewhere to
go. This drain conductor is generally connected to a good ground on one end
only. If multiple shielded cables are being used we connect all the drain
conductors to a single grounding point at the headend where all the cables
come to. Never connect both ends of the drain conductor. The unused drain
conductor is taped off so it won't touch any ground. If it does make contact
with ground (or grounded at both ends) it will make what is called a "ground
loop". Everything we call ground in the world is off balanced electrically.
If you could take your volt meter and connect a meter lead to a ground on
each side of your building. You would see a small voltage potential.
Electricity will take the path of least resistance. That means if
electricity trying to get from one side of a building (or car) to the other
it could find your shield the easy path and use it. This will encase your
insulated conductors with EMI noise from the shield being use as a
conductor. If at some point you do get bad EMI on your circuit; lift the
drain wire from the ground. Then resistance meter the drain wire to ground.
If the meter shows a low resistance between the ground and drain wire your
cable has been damaged and the shield is making contact with ground
somewhere in the wire. You will the need to locate the damage to fix the
"ground fault".
A good way to locate a source of EMI is to use a tool called an "inductive
pick up" (AKA "a pickle" or "inductive probe"). I use the Progressive 200EP
inductive probe. It is an amazing tool that will open up the world of EMI to
you. If you do get to use one, hold the tip of it to a digital watch or
calculator and listen to the EMI coming from it.
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
Low Voltage Electrician, IBEW local 76
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Deka Intimidator is not a specific battery, but a line of batteries.
Best to look at the manufacturer's spec sheet (East Penn in this case) for
correct information. The East Penn spec sheet for the Intimidator clearly
shows the various batteries in this line.
I think what you might be discovering is that many batteries are re-branded
as other types of batteries. Best to find out who is the OEM and look at
their spec information.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Kenigson
Sent: September 11, 2006 10:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: battery spreadsheet
Also be careful about trusting spec sheets out there, as they can be quite a
bit out of date or (unintentionally, I'm sure) misleading. Be especially
careful to pay attention to part numbers rather than "brand names" as two
identically branded batteries may have quite different guts.
I'm trying to evaluate batteries right now and have already had to revise my
calculations a few times because I was going off of spec sheets I had found
on the net. The biggest shocker was when I realized the "Deka Intimidators"
I had been looking at were only rated at 55Ah whereas the "Deka
Intimidators" a friend was trying to recommend were actually rated at 158Ah,
IIRC. Big difference given they're otherwise similar 12V AGM batteries. Of
course, different part numbers.
But don't take my advice. I'm a rank newb. There are quite a few veterans
on the list with the battle scars to prove it who will give you similar
advice, I'll wager.
Matt
On 9/11/06, Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here's the CalCars battery spreadsheet:
>
> http://www.calcars.org/calcars-phev-batteries18feb06-rdg.pdf
>
> Here's the stale, incomplete and non-defect-free battery analysis I
> did a couple of years ago:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/13.htm
>
> http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/specificpe.gif
>
> http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/costvsenergy.gif
>
> One thing to add to my analysis would be shelf life --the cost vs.
> cycle info is correct if you use it up fast enough, but warm climates
> may wear out batteries faster.
>
> Chris Jones
> Santa Rosa, CA
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/733
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/mcy/205817080.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI, for those of us in here in the ole' US of A (or hooking up to the
sats, anyway) LINK TV is on ch 375 on DirectTV and ch 9410 on DISH
Matt
On 9/11/06, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello to Steve and All,
Steven Lough wrote:
> This is Really Important.... To John W. and Killowatt...
>
> Let the LIST know ( in advance ) when that PBS spot will air.
As requested....SBS Dateline is airing the show Wednesday, 9-13-06 in
Australia. I've been in contact with SBS Dateline and just today, I
received an email from them saying my DVD copy is being sent to me. My
Aussie friends will get to see the show before I do, so all you down
under, feel free to let us know how it goes. For those in the states,
the show 'will' be aired on a cable network called 'Link TV' this Sunday
the 17th at 8:00 pm Eastern time. Here's the link to 'Link TV':
http://www.worldlinktv.org/programming/programDescription.php4?code=date
Here' the link to Dateline where they're showing the promo for this
week's show:
http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/
>
> And John... Keep in contact with the Writer from Car-n-Driver so we
> can be sure to buy an issue when the story hits the News Stands...
Again, as requested....I just received an email from Ted West of Car and
Driver, saying he's writing the story this week. Ted writes:
>"They haven't scheduled it for a specific issue yet, which is often
the case with stories that aren't "dated."
He says he'll let me know as soon as he knows when they decide to run it.
Thanks for the interest.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Chelsea!!
Good to see you on the EV list!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: Chelsea Sexton
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
The flyer is called "Why Plug In Cars", and is downloadable from Plug In
America's website: www.pluginamerica.com. We created it so that anyone can
print them off and use them locally as needed.
chelsea
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought the same thing when I saw Chelsea's post. Got a big EV grin
as I realized one of our favorite movie stars reads the EV list! :)
Matt
PS - Great work with PlugInAmerica!
On 9/12/06, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Chelsea!!
Good to see you on the EV list!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: Chelsea Sexton
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
The flyer is called "Why Plug In Cars", and is downloadable from Plug In
America's website: www.pluginamerica.com. We created it so that anyone can print them off
and use them locally as needed.
chelsea
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have my battery spreadsheet up at
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricVehicles/files/
From: "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: battery spreadsheet
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:36:59 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'm new to all this and would like to gather more information. I'm
starting a battery spreadsheet so I can weigh all the options.
If anyone can contribute some data, please send to me off-list and I'll
put it in the spreadsheet. If anyone can help out, email me and take a
battery type or company or whatever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
:op
already have a 95 dodge dakota 2wd for my ICE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: Dodge D50 conversion
2WD, 88 model, grill says it's a Ram 50
manual steering, vacuum assist brakes
4 speed standard, shift in the floor
gotta pull the seat and see if I can lower it a couple inches, I almost
scalped myself getting out of it, 0-0 dang door frame is too small, lol
needs a windshield and a couple of tires to go on the back
heck, it runs pretty good, hadn't started in months, she hopped in
and it
started right up
thing is, it gets hot, I think they put the thermostat in upside
down when
the were working on it, probably be able to sell the motor for a few
bucks
Aw, heck, if you're already gonna fix stuff on it, run it as your long
distance ICE alternative, and get a NON-running one for conversion,
but I guess you'll find someone who needs a good motor when you take
it out!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know this is an often-recurring thread but I promise I've done hours
and hours of reading on batteries and range calculation and the such.
I'm hoping some of you can help me figure out a couple of
things.
I'm trying to figure out what perfomance and range might be for a
light pickup truck with an ADC9 motor and a Curtis 1221B 120v/400A
controller (or maybe if i'm lucky a zilla 1kLV 156v/1000A) with AGMs
or Gels in a single string or buddy-paired. It's really hard to
figure out how range works with them. With the Trojans, there's lots
of info about range and I've managed to piece together this expected
range equation:
6 (volts) x 20 (batteries) x 225 (20h Ah rating) x .57 (1 hr Ah
modifier) / 350 (W-h per mi) = ~44 mi
I figure this is probably about right because I hope I'll do better
than 350 w-h per mi (ease up on the lead-foot) and I don't expect to
always be able to get peak out of the batteries, especially using a
dumb charger. I'm happy with this figure because it gives me a 33mi
range to 75% SoC and that's good enough to get to and from work and
make a small 10mi detour if need be (or to compensate for hilly
terrain -- don't really know how much I will lose to geography yet).
Thing is, I don't know if this type of range equation works out for
the AGMs/Gels or even by how much you would change the .57 modifier
(I'm assuming that the AGMs/Gels show less of a difference between
their 20h rates and their 1h rates than the floodies). Since I don't
know any better, I'll try it with the old modifier:
12 (v) x 10 (bats) x 158 (Ah) * .57 (mod) / 350 = ~30 mi.
...and assuming that's right, then if you do it in buddy pairs and
double the batts and Ah's, now you're at a comfortable 60 mi.
...and that's assuming I don't use the increased "peppiness" of the
buddied AGM batts to lower the w-h per mi by accelerating faster,
although I won't be doing that with a Curtis controller. The Zilla,
however, would probably tempt me sorely in that direction.
Are my numbers right? There's got to be a way to compensate for the
lower weight of the AGM or Gels. Although with 20 of them the weight
starts to catch up:
EP/Deka 8A24: 52x10 = 520 lbs
EP/Deka 8A24: 52x20 = 1040 lbs
Trojan T-105s: 62x20 = 1240 lbs
So if I went with just the 10 batts, how much farther can I go given
that I'm 720 lbs lighter than with the T-105s?
I'm also unclear about whether AGMs will get me more or fewer cycles.
Older documentation seems to indicate a pretty steep advantage to
floodies in terms of the life of the battery pack but newer docs seem
to point to increased life expectancy for AGMs and Gels.
The 158Ah figure used above is for an East Penn (Deka) 8G24, which I
suspect is a gel rather than AGM given their nomenclature (I think the
corresponding AGM battery uses an A intead of a G -- 8A24). There
seems to be a definite anti-gel tone on the list as far as I can tell,
but that seems to stem from how easy it is to ruin them by
overcharging and causing them to gas into the gel, forming bubbles
that kill performance. I'm thinking that with a BMS in place (Lee
Hart style), that shouldn't be a big concern. Should I include in my
cost assessment a smarter charger in the mix for such batteries?
I know it's a lot of questions, so I thank you all in advance and
pledge some free beer when I see any of you next.
Thanks,
Matt Kenigson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Matt,
> Thing is, I don't know if this type of range equation works out for
> the AGMs/Gels or even by how much you would change the .57 modifier
Ideally, you'd like to find the 1-hr rate (or the rate over whatever period you
will be driving, but the 1-hr rate seems to be the standard among EVers) for
your choice of battery (Deka 8A24). Applying Peukert's with the 100hr rate of
91Ah, and the 20hr rate of 79Ah, I get ~60Ah at the 1-hr rate but that's very
rough.
Anyone got a better estimate for Matt?
> 12 (v) x 10 (bats) x 158 (Ah) * .57 (mod) / 350 = ~30 mi.
>
> ...and assuming that's right, then if you do it in buddy pairs and
> double the batts and Ah's, now you're at a comfortable 60 mi.
> <snip>
>
> Are my numbers right?
> <snip>
>
> EP/Deka 8A24: 52x10 = 520 lbs
> EP/Deka 8A24: 52x20 = 1040 lbs
Not quite. In the above formula, I think you've already doubled the amp.hr
capacity of the batteries (52lbs for a 12V/158Ah battery caught my eye).
The Deka 8A24 is listed as 79Ah at the 20hr rate, so it seems like the 158Ah
figure you gave in the above formula is for a set of buddy pairs or a double
string.
Therefore, for a single string of Deka 8A24 batteries, your formula becomes:
12 (v) x 10 (bats) x 60 (Ah at 1hr rate) / 350 = ~20 mi.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ack. knew it sounded too good to be true.
On 9/12/06, Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Matt,
> Thing is, I don't know if this type of range equation works out for
> the AGMs/Gels or even by how much you would change the .57 modifier
Ideally, you'd like to find the 1-hr rate (or the rate over whatever period you
will be driving, but the 1-hr rate seems to be the standard among EVers) for
your choice of battery (Deka 8A24). Applying Peukert's with the 100hr rate of
91Ah, and the 20hr rate of 79Ah, I get ~60Ah at the 1-hr rate but that's very
rough.
Anyone got a better estimate for Matt?
> 12 (v) x 10 (bats) x 158 (Ah) * .57 (mod) / 350 = ~30 mi.
>
> ...and assuming that's right, then if you do it in buddy pairs and
> double the batts and Ah's, now you're at a comfortable 60 mi.
> <snip>
>
> Are my numbers right?
> <snip>
>
> EP/Deka 8A24: 52x10 = 520 lbs
> EP/Deka 8A24: 52x20 = 1040 lbs
Not quite. In the above formula, I think you've already doubled the amp.hr
capacity of the batteries (52lbs for a 12V/158Ah battery caught my eye).
The Deka 8A24 is listed as 79Ah at the 20hr rate, so it seems like the 158Ah
figure you gave in the above formula is for a set of buddy pairs or a double
string.
Therefore, for a single string of Deka 8A24 batteries, your formula becomes:
12 (v) x 10 (bats) x 60 (Ah at 1hr rate) / 350 = ~20 mi.
Cheers,
Claudio
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I'm no expert here, but if the autostick is just a manual transmission
with the addition of a torque converter and an electrically-activated
clutch, it seems the simplest solution is to lock up the torque
converter. Either crudely by maybe cutting into it and welding some
parts together, or nearly eliminating it (and therefore its rotating
mass) by welding just the "In" and "Out" parts (splined couplings?)
together.
That way you don't have to swap chassis, adapt pedals or externally
mount special clutch actuation hardware. Just keep the original
system except for the part that adversely affects an EV - the torque
converter.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
On 9/11/06, gary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm new to all this and would like to gather more information. I'm
starting a battery spreadsheet so I can weigh all the options.
If anyone can contribute some data, please send to me off-list and I'll
put it in the spreadsheet. If anyone can help out, email me and take a
battery type or company or whatever.
Two more useful links:
http://www.evconvert.com/eve/battery-tools
http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/Batteries
It would be a good idea to contribute your data back to wiki, or edit
it straight on the wiki page so others can contribute.
If you would like to simply put the spreadsheet online for others to
look at try google spreadsheets or Zoho sheet:
http://www.zoliblog.com/blog/_archives/2006/6/7/2015110.html
/kert
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One more detail mentioned in the past has been that with limited battery
capacity, we automatically avoid using the motor and rest of the drive
system in continuous duty.
A gen-trailer allows you to perhaps use the motor longer and you may
discover that removing and adding a blower and maybe even removing the
internal fan when adding the blower is necessary.
I would like a gen trailer if it ran CNG (or maybe off a propane bottle)
, was efficient, and would be used twice a year for long trips and maybe
once a month at most for medium trips. I understand that every
conversion costs but people seem to forget that a pusher trailer has
transmission losses.
How efficient can a generator head be? It seems at first like a PM
generator with it's free field would be most efficient, but the lack of
field control restricts it to one rpm,one load for that high efficiency.
The other issue is generators(should say alternators here) usually are
made with poor magnetic laminations, Is anyone aware of a source for
high efficiency generator heads/APU's?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Matt,
You could get that range, if you drove at the 20 hour rate to get the full
225 ah, which would be 225/20 = 11.25 amp per hour.
You have to use the ampere that the EV may be driven at, and then modified
the ampere-hour by using the Reserve capacity.
Most of the Deep cycle batteries will show a Reserve Capacity of at 75 amps
which may be closer to what a EV drives at. I average this with a ampere
range of 30 to 120 battery amps.
At 225 ah @ 20 Hr, has 132 Reserved minutes at 75 amps.
Therefore: 132 mins / 60 = 2.2 hrs
2.2 hrs x 75 mins = 165 AH
Then using your formula:
6V x 20(bat) x 165 ah x .57 = 11286
11286/350 = 32 miles.
I am using 30 ea 6V Trojan T-145's [EMAIL PROTECTED] which is 145 Reserved
Minutes
at 75 amps. I used 360 watts/mi.
My modified ampere-hour is 181 ah and the range cal would be:
(6V x 30 x 181ah x .57)/360 = 51 miles
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:47 AM
Subject: Battery choice and range
> I know this is an often-recurring thread but I promise I've done hours
> and hours of reading on batteries and range calculation and the such.
> I'm hoping some of you can help me figure out a couple of
> things.
>
> I'm trying to figure out what perfomance and range might be for a
> light pickup truck with an ADC9 motor and a Curtis 1221B 120v/400A
> controller (or maybe if i'm lucky a zilla 1kLV 156v/1000A) with AGMs
> or Gels in a single string or buddy-paired. It's really hard to
> figure out how range works with them. With the Trojans, there's lots
> of info about range and I've managed to piece together this expected
> range equation:
>
> 6 (volts) x 20 (batteries) x 225 (20h Ah rating) x .57 (1 hr Ah
> modifier) / 350 (W-h per mi) = ~44 mi
>
> I figure this is probably about right because I hope I'll do better
> than 350 w-h per mi (ease up on the lead-foot) and I don't expect to
> always be able to get peak out of the batteries, especially using a
> dumb charger. I'm happy with this figure because it gives me a 33mi
> range to 75% SoC and that's good enough to get to and from work and
> make a small 10mi detour if need be (or to compensate for hilly
> terrain -- don't really know how much I will lose to geography yet).
>
> Thing is, I don't know if this type of range equation works out for
> the AGMs/Gels or even by how much you would change the .57 modifier
> (I'm assuming that the AGMs/Gels show less of a difference between
> their 20h rates and their 1h rates than the floodies). Since I don't
> know any better, I'll try it with the old modifier:
>
> 12 (v) x 10 (bats) x 158 (Ah) * .57 (mod) / 350 = ~30 mi.
>
> ...and assuming that's right, then if you do it in buddy pairs and
> double the batts and Ah's, now you're at a comfortable 60 mi.
>
> ...and that's assuming I don't use the increased "peppiness" of the
> buddied AGM batts to lower the w-h per mi by accelerating faster,
> although I won't be doing that with a Curtis controller. The Zilla,
> however, would probably tempt me sorely in that direction.
>
> Are my numbers right? There's got to be a way to compensate for the
> lower weight of the AGM or Gels. Although with 20 of them the weight
> starts to catch up:
>
> EP/Deka 8A24: 52x10 = 520 lbs
> EP/Deka 8A24: 52x20 = 1040 lbs
> Trojan T-105s: 62x20 = 1240 lbs
>
> So if I went with just the 10 batts, how much farther can I go given
> that I'm 720 lbs lighter than with the T-105s?
>
> I'm also unclear about whether AGMs will get me more or fewer cycles.
> Older documentation seems to indicate a pretty steep advantage to
> floodies in terms of the life of the battery pack but newer docs seem
> to point to increased life expectancy for AGMs and Gels.
>
> The 158Ah figure used above is for an East Penn (Deka) 8G24, which I
> suspect is a gel rather than AGM given their nomenclature (I think the
> corresponding AGM battery uses an A intead of a G -- 8A24). There
> seems to be a definite anti-gel tone on the list as far as I can tell,
> but that seems to stem from how easy it is to ruin them by
> overcharging and causing them to gas into the gel, forming bubbles
> that kill performance. I'm thinking that with a BMS in place (Lee
> Hart style), that shouldn't be a big concern. Should I include in my
> cost assessment a smarter charger in the mix for such batteries?
>
> I know it's a lot of questions, so I thank you all in advance and
> pledge some free beer when I see any of you next.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt Kenigson
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Sep 2006 at 7:23, Roland Wiench wrote:
> You could get that range, if you drove at the 20 hour rate to get the full 225
> ah, which would be 225/20 = 11.25 amp per hour.
A little correction - 225 ah / 20 h = 11.25 amps. The time cancels out, so
there's no "per hour" component.
But the point is otherwise very well made. That's a mighty little bit of
current. At 144 volts it's about 1.6kW. A very light, streamlined,
efficient vehicle like Cedric Lynch's might be able to go, say, 30mph on
that power, but definitely not any conversion I've ever seen and for darn
sure NOT a pickup of ANY size.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aww... you guys really know how to make a girl blush, even via email!
thank you!
From: "Matt Kenigson" Reply-To: [email protected] To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 01:18:56 -0500
I thought the same thing when I saw Chelsea's post. Got a big EV grin as I
realized one of our favorite movie stars reads the EV list! :)
Matt
PS - Great work with PlugInAmerica!
On 9/12/06, Rich Rudman wrote:
Hey Chelsea!! Good to see you on the EV list!
Madman
----- Original Message ----- From: Chelsea Sexton To:
[email protected] Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
The flyer is called "Why Plug In Cars", and is downloadable from Plug
In America's website: www.pluginamerica.com. We created it so that anyone
can print them off and use them locally as needed.
chelsea
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, Thanks
Mark E. Hanson
Senior Design Engineer
Synchrony Inc.
6410 Commonwealth Drive
Roanoke, VA 24018
(540) 989-1541
(540) 989-0467 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Nordlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:22 AM
To: Mark E. Hanson
Subject: RE: copper-graphite ratio
You can put it anywhere, no problem with that.
We used very low voltage, had three brushes in series with a extra
resistance. I don't remember the voltage I can try to find it out but i
will probably take a couple of days.
/Erik
> BTW, would it be OK to put this info on the EVlist? The inquiring
minds
> might be interested.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark E. Hanson
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:19 AM
> To: 'Erik Nordlund'
> Subject: RE: copper-graphite ratio
>
> Hi Erik,
>
> Thanks for the reply. What was your voltage you were operating at?
Did
> you see any sparking differences between the different brush
materials?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
> From: Erik Nordlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:09 AM
> To: Mark E. Hanson
> Subject: RE: copper-graphite ratio
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> During our study of different brush materials we use both DC and
> switched
> AC up to 600Hz, the current densities we used was from 2.9 up to
13A/cm2
> we tried even higher but I don't remember the maximum value. The type
of
> current didn't affect much on the result and not either the current
> density until when we ran them at a really high current density. The
> largest problem for our setup was the speed.
> Another problem was vibrations that really could affect the
temperature.
>
> If the brushes with copper snub the arcs better or worse then the
> brushes
> with pure graphite I am not sure, but I think it sounds like a good
> explanation.
>
> I don't know what you red about our study but the paper you can get in
> pdf
> from this address
>
http://eme.ekc.kth.se/publications.php?publ_people=erik_freddy_gamal_pet
> er_trondheim&year=2004
>
>
> Regards
> Erik
>
>
>> Hi Erik,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply. I advanced the timing 7 degrees (Jim Husted on
>> the EVlist recommended 10 though) and installed 30% copper-graphite
>> brushes on the 7: Schaef (ADC knockoff) motor. The advanced timing
>> eliminated the arcing & maintained speed better on hills as well.
The
>> brushes with copper are running about 20C cooler at 72V. Jim said
not
>> to run them in 120V + vehicles as they don't snub the arcs as well as
>> straight graphite brushes, is that true?
>>
>> John Wayland & Rod Wilde both noticed this effect at the last
>> international NEDRA race in Oregon & switched back to the graphite
>> brushes. I guess the copper is best for low voltage vehicles where
>> there is a high current density resulting from no transmission. If
> you
>> have a tranny & a larger size motor, 8 or 9" with more brush area
then
>> straight graphite is probably the best like I saw in my E-jeep &
>> Electro-Metro.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark
>>
>> Mark E. Hanson
>> Senior Design Engineer
>> Synchrony Inc.
>> 6410 Commonwealth Drive
>> Roanoke, VA 24018
>> (540) 989-1541
>> (540) 989-0467 Fax
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Erik Nordlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 2:04 AM
>> To: Mark E. Hanson
>> Subject: Re: copper-graphite ratio
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I am not working at the univerity any longer thats why the late
> answer,
>> I
>> don't read this mail so often.
>>
>> We did the study in 2004 and I think it was 35% copper in the brush.
I
>> am
>> not really shore but I will try to check it for you.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Erik
>>
>>> Hi Erik,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I read your well done study on brush comparisons and was curious
> what
>>> the ratio was of the Carbex AB copper-graphite brushes? Was your
>> study
>>> done this year? What voltage was the battery source?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a DC Cushman with a series wound motor that has 120C brush
>> temps
>>> and would benefit from advancing the timing & using copper-graphite
>>> brushes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark E. Hanson
>>>
>>> Senior Design Engineer
>>>
>>> Synchrony Inc.
>>>
>>> 6410 Commonwealth Drive
>>>
>>> Roanoke, VA 24018
>>>
>>> (540) 989-1541
>>>
>>> (540) 989-0467 Fax
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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