EV Digest 5864
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Another car show
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: i'm Very skeptical
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Another new battery... Hybrio
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: i'm Very skeptical
by "Christian, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Portland Tribune's 'Gentlemen, unplug your engines'
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 914 conversion
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: [uselectricar] Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
by John Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Another new battery... Hybrio
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
the helicoil would be pulled out like they were the threads of a bolt
need a nut soldered into the holes from the bottom that has a lip on it
kind of like the below
__| |__
the lip would keep it from getting pulled through the hole and soldering it
in would keep it from rotating while trying to tighten the bolts
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>; "US Electricar"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 2:24 PM
Subject: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
Has anyone heli coiled their battery box bolt holes on their USE
trucks?
I've noticed that the 6mm tapped holes get stripped easily. I've used
torque limiting on them when installed. But they are only 3/16" deep
threads, so they should be reinforced with a Helicoil or equivalent.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Another car show
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:29:37 -0700 (PDT)
One of the things that worries me about showing a car is the issue of
prying fingers where they
don't belong. You don't want to fry someone, it's bad press. I'm thinking
of fabricating clear
acrylic covers for the electronics so everyone could see, but no one could
come to harm. Of
course, I'd also open a breaker or pull an Anderson to make sure there is
no battery connection to
the exposed parts.
I'm taking the same approach. But, acrylic ( "plexiglass") will soften and
sag at a low temperture,. It's also britte, and will crack easily at any
holes, or under the least impact. If you end up going this route, try
using polycarbonate ( one brand is Lexan) instead. It's a bit more
expensive, but a dream to work with. And, it glues easily and well with
super-glue.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The 75% SOC is only 25% DOD (Depth of Discharge)
>
> Its 260 ah, not 225 ah for me
>
> Or its 20 batts at 225 ah for you.
>
> 6V x 30 batts x 260 Ah / 360 wthr per mi = 130 mi x .57 = 74.1
miles
>
> Its looks that the .57 factor would be correct if you use the full
> ampere-hour rating of the battery in your calculation.
>
> My range happens to be exactly 75.1 miles at 50 mph!
>
Is that 75 miles to 75% SOC or to fully (100%) discharged?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No it's just the state of the marketplace. Either the market doesn't
care about poor quality if the price is right, or the consequences of
producing poor quality product just don't catch up with the mfg who
makes it.
But China CAN produce high quality mfg at low prices. They can also
produce cheap crap. The cheap crap is probably the bulk of their
business because that's what most buyers seem happy with.
Now when you want something innovative done, China typically doesn't
seem to be able to fit the bill. That's a consequence of a culture of
conformity. You might blame it on a cultural shutout, but no one of
Chinese nationality has ever won a Nobel prize.
It's hard to picture them designing and pulling off a quality EV.
Danny
Mike Ellis wrote:
Maybe it's a lesson learned from American automobile manufacturers. ;-)
-Mike
On 9/9/06, Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Also, recently encountered an interesting comment from someone who
had spent substantial time in China regarding shoddy workmanship. He
said that there is an attitude in China that a product doesn't have
to be well made as long as it looks good. Appearance is everything,
but it can fall apart tomorrow. I wonder if this is a cultural
legacy of the many years of Communism putting on a good face
(Potemkin factories, etc.).
Shari Prange
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So the Peukert Const is for lead-acid only?
Yup!. And it's not really a const, just an approximation and only fits
the curve when using data that is close to the approximation you wish to
calculate.
For example, if you calculated the peukert number using data for a 20 hr
discharge and a 40 hr discharge, and then tried to calculate the 30 minute
discharge, it would be off by a considerable amount, probably resulting in
a calculated capacity that is twice what the real capacity is.
>
> -Ralph
>
>
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:52:00 -0400
> "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Looking at the Red Beastie.
>>
>> With 40 T-105's running two parallel strings of 20 (120V @ C/20*2 = 450
>> AH).
>> you get.
>>
>> 120V * .57 (Peukert Const) * 450 / X = 120
>>
>> That gives the Amps/mile at about 250.
>>
>> The formula works perfectly.
>>
>> It would work the same if all batteries run serially (240V). Math is
>> funny
>> that way.
>>
>> 240 V * .57 * 225 / 250 = 123.12 mi for range.
>>
>> Originally I thought that the .57 was DoD and not the Peukert const.
>>
>> The other way to look at is (the same as above but restated):
>>
>> #Batteries * Voltage per battery * .57 * C20 Rating / Amps drawn per
>> hour.
>>
>> Range will vary based on many too many variables, but it gives you a
>> ballpark to
>> estimate your batteries.
>>
>> >My understanding about using the Ah rating of Trojans is that you need
>> to
>> >use the C1 rating and not the Reserve capacity. Because the reserve
>> >capacity that the EV will be driven at is the C1 rate.
>> >
>> >Here is a formula that was published (I don't remember by who) on the
>> list
>> >
>> >Range = amp hrs at 20 C rate x .57 x pack voltage/ watt hrs per mile
>> >
>> >The amp hrs of Trojans 6 v bats at 20 C rate x .57 is the C1 rate, or
>> 137
>> >Ah, as defined by Trojan on their website.
>> >
>> >If I understand what Roland is doing he is using the Reserve capacity
>> that
>> >the EV will be driven at and then multiplying it by the C1 rate which
>> is
>> >basically the Reserve capacity that the EV will be driven at. So he is
>> >using the rate at which the EV will be driven 2 times in his formula.
>> >
>> >As an example if you take the Red Beastie, the pickup that had 40 -
>> T-105's
>> >Trojans in it, the trip range was 120 miles. See
>> >http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html for the specs. I tried to use
>> the
>> >formula on the Red Beastie, but the specs specifically say "runs on
>> 120v"
>> >and it has 40 - 6 v batteries.... so somewhere there were some of them
>> in
>> >parallel.
>> >
>> >But according to Roland's calculation below the 40 pack would only make
>> 64
>> >miles so something is wrong somewhere.
>> >
>> >According to the Formula above, Roland should be able to get the same
>> that
>> >I will with my 30 batteries, well maybe not cause he is using R145's,
>> but
>> >in any case he should be able to get approx -
>> >Range = amp hrs at 20 C rate * .57* pack voltage/ watt hrs per mile
>> >Range = 260 Ah x .57 x 180v / 350 Wh per mile
>> >Range = 76 miles at 100%DOD
>> >
>> >Rush
>> >Tucson AZ
>> >www.ironandwood.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >To: <[email protected]>
>> >Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 6:23 AM
>> >Subject: Re: Battery choice and range
>> >
>> >
>> > > Hello Matt,
>> > >
>> > > You could get that range, if you drove at the 20 hour rate to get
>> the
>> >full
>> > > 225 ah, which would be 225/20 = 11.25 amp per hour.
>> > >
>> > > You have to use the ampere that the EV may be driven at, and then
>> >modified
>> > > the ampere-hour by using the Reserve capacity.
>> > >
>> > > Most of the Deep cycle batteries will show a Reserve Capacity of at
>> 75
>> >amps
>> > > which may be closer to what a EV drives at. I average this with a
>> >ampere
>> > > range of 30 to 120 battery amps.
>> > >
>> > > At 225 ah @ 20 Hr, has 132 Reserved minutes at 75 amps.
>> > >
>> > > Therefore: 132 mins / 60 = 2.2 hrs
>> > >
>> > > 2.2 hrs x 75 mins = 165 AH
>> > >
>> > > Then using your formula:
>> > >
>> > > 6V x 20(bat) x 165 ah x .57 = 11286
>> > >
>> > > 11286/350 = 32 miles.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I am using 30 ea 6V Trojan T-145's [EMAIL PROTECTED] which is 145
>> > > Reserved
>> >Minutes
>> > > at 75 amps. I used 360 watts/mi.
>> > >
>> > > My modified ampere-hour is 181 ah and the range cal would be:
>> > >
>> > > (6V x 30 x 181ah x .57)/360 = 51 miles
>> > >
>> > > Roland
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > To: <[email protected]>
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:47 AM
>> > > Subject: Battery choice and range
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> I know this is an often-recurring thread but I promise I've done
>> hours
>> > >> and hours of reading on batteries and range calculation and the
>> such.
>> > >> I'm hoping some of you can help me figure out a couple of
>> > >> things.
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm trying to figure out what perfomance and range might be for a
>> > >> light pickup truck with an ADC9 motor and a Curtis 1221B 120v/400A
>> > >> controller (or maybe if i'm lucky a zilla 1kLV 156v/1000A) with
>> AGMs
>> > >> or Gels in a single string or buddy-paired. It's really hard to
>> > >> figure out how range works with them. With the Trojans, there's
>> lots
>> > >> of info about range and I've managed to piece together this
>> expected
>> > >> range equation:
>> > >>
>> > >> 6 (volts) x 20 (batteries) x 225 (20h Ah rating) x .57 (1 hr Ah
>> > >> modifier) / 350 (W-h per mi) = ~44 mi
>> > >>
>> > >> I figure this is probably about right because I hope I'll do better
>> > >> than 350 w-h per mi (ease up on the lead-foot) and I don't expect
>> to
>> > >> always be able to get peak out of the batteries, especially using a
>> > >> dumb charger. I'm happy with this figure because it gives me a
>> 33mi
>> > >> range to 75% SoC and that's good enough to get to and from work and
>> > >> make a small 10mi detour if need be (or to compensate for hilly
>> > >> terrain -- don't really know how much I will lose to geography
>> yet).
>> > >>
>> > >> Thing is, I don't know if this type of range equation works out for
>> > >> the AGMs/Gels or even by how much you would change the .57 modifier
>> > >> (I'm assuming that the AGMs/Gels show less of a difference between
>> > >> their 20h rates and their 1h rates than the floodies). Since I
>> don't
>> > >> know any better, I'll try it with the old modifier:
>> > >>
>> > >> 12 (v) x 10 (bats) x 158 (Ah) * .57 (mod) / 350 = ~30 mi.
>> > >>
>> > >> ...and assuming that's right, then if you do it in buddy pairs and
>> > >> double the batts and Ah's, now you're at a comfortable 60 mi.
>> > >>
>> > >> ...and that's assuming I don't use the increased "peppiness" of the
>> > >> buddied AGM batts to lower the w-h per mi by accelerating faster,
>> > >> although I won't be doing that with a Curtis controller. The
>> Zilla,
>> > >> however, would probably tempt me sorely in that direction.
>> > >>
>> > >> Are my numbers right? There's got to be a way to compensate for
>> the
>> > >> lower weight of the AGM or Gels. Although with 20 of them the
>> weight
>> > >> starts to catch up:
>> > >>
>> > >> EP/Deka 8A24: 52x10 = 520 lbs
>> > >> EP/Deka 8A24: 52x20 = 1040 lbs
>> > >> Trojan T-105s: 62x20 = 1240 lbs
>> > >>
>> > >> So if I went with just the 10 batts, how much farther can I go
>> given
>> > >> that I'm 720 lbs lighter than with the T-105s?
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm also unclear about whether AGMs will get me more or fewer
>> cycles.
>> > >> Older documentation seems to indicate a pretty steep advantage to
>> > >> floodies in terms of the life of the battery pack but newer docs
>> seem
>> > >> to point to increased life expectancy for AGMs and Gels.
>> > >>
>> > >> The 158Ah figure used above is for an East Penn (Deka) 8G24, which
>> I
>> > >> suspect is a gel rather than AGM given their nomenclature (I think
>> the
>> > >> corresponding AGM battery uses an A intead of a G -- 8A24). There
>> > >> seems to be a definite anti-gel tone on the list as far as I can
>> tell,
>> > >> but that seems to stem from how easy it is to ruin them by
>> > >> overcharging and causing them to gas into the gel, forming bubbles
>> > >> that kill performance. I'm thinking that with a BMS in place (Lee
>> > >> Hart style), that shouldn't be a big concern. Should I include in
>> my
>> > >> cost assessment a smarter charger in the mix for such batteries?
>> > >>
>> > >> I know it's a lot of questions, so I thank you all in advance and
>> > >> pledge some free beer when I see any of you next.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks,
>> > >>
>> > >> Matt Kenigson
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Get the new Windows Live Messenger!
>> http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline
>
>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Ampere-hour capacity, as stated by the Trojan Battery Co.:
>
> A battery rated for 100 ampere-hours can deliver 5 amperes for 20 hours or
> (5 amperes x 20 hours = 100 amp-hrs)
>
> I take it as to mean 5 amperes per hour.
Nope, it means a constant 5 amperes of current for 20 hours, just like it
says.
--
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junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the .57 modifier was intended to
> convert the 20h rate to the 1hr rate.
Hmm, most of the flooded batteries I've compared have a 1hr rate that is
roughly 65% of the 20 hr rate.
I always assumed that the 57% took peukert AND the 80% rule into account.
I.e. draining the battery at the 1.25 hour rate (peukert would give
roughly 70% of 20 hr) for only 1 hr (80% DOD rule).
Perhaps I'm wrong. Personally I either use Uve's calculator for a
slightly more precise (and quicker) answer or just go with the 600lb of
lead = 1 gallon of gas rule of thumb.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Battery choice and range
> > My range happens to be exactly 75.1 miles at 50 mph!
> >
>
> Is that 75 miles to 75% SOC or to fully (100%) discharged?
It was about 90% DOD. When I first got my EV with the GE 11.5 motor. I did
a test run around a 39 mile loop around the city. The next loop I shorten
it up to 20 miles on the next loop and 10 miles on the next and etc.
It still ran fine on a level, but would would slow way down on a slight
upgrade about 1 miles from my home, so I stop the EV for 15 minutes allowing
for the batteries to defuse, (giving time for the acid deep in the plates to
come to the surface), this was 75.1 miles at that time.
I was able to get over the hump at about 10 mph and than was able to coast
all the way down hill right into my garage.
My Specific Gravity was about 1.100 SG plus or minus 0.01.
90% DOD (Depth of Discharge) is the same as 10% SOC(State of Charge) or
sometimes call Percentage of Charge.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as I know, it's basically a NiMH battery with lower self-discharge.
Not really of any use for EVs...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 4:46 PM
Subject: Another new battery... Hybrio
I searched my archives of the list for the name but didn't find it:
http://www.hybriousa.com/
The website looks like a sham to me, but this is hitting all the eco news
sites.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=94301
See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
The Chapter's President mentioned that they are working on having
both the Tango EV as well as AC Propulsion's vehicle at the Rally
to be along with Tesla EV.
I have been working on inviting more than just the usual large
assortment of EVs of all types and sizes zipping around the EVent.
I just sent an email to ZAP asking that they bring a couple of
XEBRA EVs.
As you might know the XEBRA EV has been getting some bad press by
the media: http://tinyurl.com/hs6hn* . That media outlet does not
know Xebras niche market: a better performance EV than an nEV, but
at a lower price with features not offered by many nEVs.
Though ZAP has not had a stellar reputation, I am hoping they bring
the Xebra to the EVent so both the public and EV'rs can get a good
look at the EV.
ZAP's Xebra description page http://zapworld.com/cars/xebra.asp is
rather terse and lacks the details I am seeking to know what kind
of EV this is. ZAP has placed an ad on ebay selling their Xebra
http://search.ebay.com/not-a-car_W0QQfkrZ1QQfnuZ1QQsatitleZQ22notQ22Q20Q22aQ22Q20Q22carQ22
The images on the ad shows what looks like a small 72 VDC 200 amp
Curtis controller knock-off. The image for the charger looks like a
Delta-Q knock-off with an SB-50 output connector and a 12-3 AC
input cable.
With a little digging, I found on the ZAP support page a pdf that
gives more details: http://zapworld.com/support/pdf/XebraManual.pdf
(listed below).
The pdf shows three 12 VDC sealed Lead-Acid batteries. The manual
says: 25 mile range at a constant 30 mph. That is very different
than 40 mile range and 40 mph top speed.
The following are excerpts from the manual:
"
The Xebra is technically a motorcycle and needs to be driven
similar to a motorcycle. What this means is gradual turns just like
you would operate a motorcycle - no sudden sharp turns. Check with
your local motorcycle laws to ensure compliance with license
requirements.
Length: 9 feet
Width: 4.7 feet
Height: 5 feet
Weight: 1500 lbs.
Charger 110v on board
Classification: Zero Emission Vehicle
[...]
Passengers plus cargo should not exceed 500 lbs.
[...]
The duration of an average charge, at a speed of 30 mph will yield
approximately 25 miles of travel on one charge. Factors such as
prolonged high speed, excessive stop and go traffic, inclined or
uneven roads and weight will play a role in decreasing the distance
you can drive.
We recommend planning your trip; it will give you a safe experience
in your Xebra as well as others on the roads. Stay aware of the
voltage meter. If your [pack surface voltage] level drops below
66v, you will not be able to operate the vehicle. If you find you
are low on power, stop at a location where you can plug in your
Xebra. A 10 foot power cord is supplied with the car, if you choose
to purchase additional cords, you must ensure the gauge of the
cord. A heavy duty extension cord is necessary (12 AWG). Ideal
length is no longer than 24 feet. If a cord is longer than 25 feet,
use 10 AWG cord.
Convenience charging is just as it sounds, when you have the
opportunity to give your Xebra some power, even for an hour, we
recommend you do so. Unlike other rechargeable batteries, its not
possible to damage the batteries by frequently charging and
recharging them. The grade of battery installed in your Xebra can
accommodate frequent charges.
It can take approximately an hour to refresh your Xebra to a point
where you can drive it for another three to four miles. Optimal
charge is achieved after six to eight hours. The charging system is
equipped with technology to stop the flow of current once the
desired charge in reached. It will not continue to run.
In the event of an outage, we ask that you are responsible with
your charging methods. Local laws prohibit the use of business
power outlets without expressed permission, please be aware of your
charging location. The outlet to plug the power cord into needs to
be rated at a minimum of 20 amps. The amount of power required to
charge the batteries may compromise the circuits and fuses of your
charging location.
[...]
You should not smoke while operating a ZAP Product. Keep the ZAP
Product away from open flames such as pilot lights, lighters, etc.
Never smoke when charging, either.
[...]
The main limitation of the electric vehicle (EV) is its limited
range between charges. However, if youre like most Americans and
your household owns more than one car, then at least one of these
cars probably doesnt go more than 30 miles in any given day which
is well within the range of electric cars. Note: If you plug in
twice a day you can double your daily range!
[...]
IMPORTANT: The single most important item is to charge your
batteries ALL THE WAY! If you are plugging into a 110 volt 15 amp
or 20 amp circuits, it can take up to 24 hours to charge batteries
that are 100% discharged. For faster charging, use a 220 volt 30
amp charger.
Take off slowly, avoiding jack-rabbit starts. Pretend an egg is
under the accelerator pedal.
Keep your speed slow and steady. A constant 30 mph is better than
going 20, 30, 40, 30, etc.
Anticipate red [lights; coast] into them. Since there is no idle
in an EV, you can save quite a bit of energy here.
Avoid steep hills like the plague. Take a more level alternative
route if possible, even if its longer.
Keep your tires fully inflated, and use radials with low friction
characteristics if possible.
Limit the use of all other electrical items, especially your
heater.
Eliminate excess weight from your EV (-100 lbs = 2% increase in
range).
Keep you EV garaged during cold weather (unless you have solar
panels).
Write your elected officials to push for EV battery research EV
incentive legislature.
Install some Solar Electric panels onto your EV or garage.
Be sure your batteries are fully charged before leaving on your
trip.
Use the correct gauge extension cord (#12/3 or #10/3 must be used
for charging).
Charge wherever and whenever you can (even 30 minutes of charging
will give you more miles than the mathematics suggest).
"
I hope to see you at the Rally :-)
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny,
You are stepping into some ill-thought out areas here. I have been China
3 times in the last year and I regularly deal with some very capable
engineers in China. I am not a big fan of their politics, but I have had
to admit that their engineer skill is quite advanced. Also (strangely),
they have embraced much of the business economy model and they know how
to compete.
Regardless of what I have seen or think, you should carefully consider
making such generalizations about any group of 1 billion folks.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 3:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: i'm Very skeptical
No it's just the state of the marketplace. Either the market doesn't
care about poor quality if the price is right, or the consequences of
producing poor quality product just don't catch up with the mfg who
makes it.
But China CAN produce high quality mfg at low prices. They can also
produce cheap crap. The cheap crap is probably the bulk of their
business because that's what most buyers seem happy with.
Now when you want something innovative done, China typically doesn't
seem to be able to fit the bill. That's a consequence of a culture of
conformity. You might blame it on a cultural shutout, but no one of
Chinese nationality has ever won a Nobel prize.
It's hard to picture them designing and pulling off a quality EV.
Danny
Mike Ellis wrote:
> Maybe it's a lesson learned from American automobile manufacturers.
;-)
>
> -Mike
>
> On 9/9/06, Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Also, recently encountered an interesting comment from someone who
>> had spent substantial time in China regarding shoddy workmanship. He
>> said that there is an attitude in China that a product doesn't have
>> to be well made as long as it looks good. Appearance is everything,
>> but it can fall apart tomorrow. I wonder if this is a cultural
>> legacy of the many years of Communism putting on a good face
>> (Potemkin factories, etc.).
>>
>> Shari Prange
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Whew...I guess the saying 'when it rain, it pours' is appropriate. On
the heels of the Oregonian newspaper article, the upcoming Car and
Driver magazine article, and tomorrow's showing of the Dateline
Australia piece, here' yet more EV racing coverage:
http://www.portlandtribune.com/sustainable/story.php?story_id=115802927058375800
Best quote of the article.....Rich Rudman "The power comes on so quick,
you can basically do Morse code with the tires."
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can use a blind rivet with built-in threads. I use different sizes for
1/32 inch thick material to any thickness. I used it on my 1/4, 3/8, and
1/2 inch aluminum chassis's and frame work.
The largest I used was 3/8-16 bolt size. After drilling the hole, you
insert it, thread in a bolt that has a collar on it, and tighten. This sets
the insert like a big pop rivet, that mushrooms on the back side.
You can insert it into very deep material, and it tightens up against the
sides of the hole, like a concrete anchor does.
It was a while since I did this, so the following company did not have a web
site at the time.
The name of this item is call THREAD-SERT by:
Creative Engineering Incorporated
475 Myles Standish Blvd.
Taunton, MA 02780
PH: (617) 824-6604
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Dave Cover" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
> I wonder if that would be easier than a perma coil/heli coil ?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > > Mike Phillips wrote:
> > > > > Has anyone heli coiled their battery box bolt holes on their USE
> > > > > trucks?
> > > > >
> >
> > Can you drill the holes oversize and epoxy t-nuts in?
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> It was a while since I did this, so the following company did
> not have a web site at the time.
>
> The name of this item is call THREAD-SERT by:
If you only need a small number of these, then Home Depot is a
convenient source. If you need more, it would be more economic to buy
them elsewhere.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are the chances that I could
> recover my costs (not
> labor) assuming that the car is pretty clean with
> new paint, tires and
> better brakes?
Recover costs? Depends on driving habits. The more
miles, the more you save on gas by buying electricity,
so the faster it pays for itself. But it is still a
process measured in years.
For my commutes, as long as gas is over $2.22/gal, I
come out ahead buying batteries and electricity. As
far as paying for $9K in converting costs, that will
be amortized over 20 years or so, depending on the
price of oil.
Most of us don't do this for the cost efficiency...
What are opinions on the 914 and the
> EA AC kit?
>
I worked on one at a JC in SoCal. It was a well
thought out conversion, done many times.
Unfortunately, the 914 was a bit beat up, so it took
some creativity, but eventually was fast, efficient,
and fun.
peace,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
> annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
> September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
> parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
>
I contemplated going, being less than 90 miles away, but besides 2hrs
of driving at my usual sub-55mph EV speed, I would need >3hrs of
top-up charging on the way, and would have to stay 5hrs at the rally
for a full charge, without even running in the rally! That's at least
15hrs devoted to EV travel vs 3hrs or less for gas - no wonder folks
want to tow around a generator! It seems hypocritical to go that far
ICE-powered to participate in an EV rally.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It was about 90% DOD. When I first got my EV with the GE 11.5
motor. I did
> a test run around a 39 mile loop around the city. The next loop I
shorten
> it up to 20 miles on the next loop and 10 miles on the next and etc.
>
> It still ran fine on a level, but would would slow way down on a slight
> upgrade about 1 miles from my home, so I stop the EV for 15 minutes
allowing
> for the batteries to defuse, (giving time for the acid deep in the
plates to
> come to the surface), this was 75.1 miles at that time.
>
> I was able to get over the hump at about 10 mph and than was able to
coast
> all the way down hill right into my garage.
Did you include the 10mph to your range, or is the 75.1 miles only at
50mph?
> My Specific Gravity was about 1.100 SG plus or minus 0.01.
>
> 90% DOD (Depth of Discharge) is the same as 10% SOC(State of Charge)
or
> sometimes call Percentage of Charge.
>
What do those SG numbers mean to those of us with SLA packs?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I would be a bit concerned that the Helicoil will be screwed down too deep
and fall out of the 3/16" alu wall of the box, into the battery box itself.
This may not happen during the initial inserting of the Helicoil, but when
the bolts are removed and re-applied the Helicoils may be driven in deeper
(Helicoils turning iso the bolt turning in the Helicoil).
Since it is a through-hole, there is no end-stop.
BTW, when you start with Helicoils, you already need to drill the holes up
to larger diameter and re-tap them, so why not get larger size bolts that
fit in those holes and be careful not to damage the new threads?
There probably are other solutions as well, such as fixing thread-ends
(or bolts, tapped in from under the box edge) and close the lid with
nuts on all the thread ends sticking through the holes.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
<http://www.cvandewater.com/>
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 12:24 PM
To: EVDL; US Electricar
Subject: [uselectricar] Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
Has anyone heli coiled their battery box bolt holes on their USE
trucks?
I've noticed that the 6mm tapped holes get stripped easily. I've used
torque limiting on them when installed. But they are only 3/16" deep
threads, so they should be reinforced with a Helicoil or equivalent.
Mike
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__,_._,___
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I've used pem nuts from Penn Engineering on similar applications with
good results. (http://www.pemnet.com/comp_lit_files/) Look at the ALA
505 series Floating Self-Clinching Fasteners on the web site or call
them. You can probably get samples. Looking at the illustrations, it
would appear there's no way the toothed ferrule would keep them in the
hole but the toothed area is only there to mash material under the
beveled lip below when you tighten the bolt the first time. That locks
it in place and gives you a solid replacement thread. You just have to
make sure to drill the recommended size hole and NO larger. They work
well on thin material.
John
EV Wannabe
On Tue, 2006-09-12 at 12:24 -0700, Mike Phillips wrote:
> Has anyone heli coiled their battery box bolt holes on their USE
> trucks?
>
> I've noticed that the 6mm tapped holes get stripped easily. I've used
> torque limiting on them when installed. But they are only 3/16" deep
> threads, so they should be reinforced with a Helicoil or equivalent.
>
> Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
The bed already has drainage holes (in the front corners),
however the concern is that if you want to access your
battery box frequently (for watering, as an example) then
you will wear out the alu thread with the stainless steel
bolts, so they will not hold the lid of the box securely
down after opening it several times.
The ideas are that either something must be added to the
alu thin wall to improve the thread (hence the suggestion
for Helicoils) or drill up the alu holes and add a thread
that is more resilient, for example tack-weld nuts under
the alu edge behind the holes; hammer or compress an insert
into the alu holes that has its own thread, and so on.
The only drainage I wanted and have added is drilling
two small holes in the >bottom< of the battery box, so if
there would seep something in, it will also get out and
not start an electrochemical corrosion / leak current.
The position of the holes is at the bottom corner of each
side of the box, 1/3 from the rear of the box. Far enough
to the front to not get water splashed in from the rear
wheels and far enough to the rear to not be affected by
whatever the front wheels throw up. Also this happens to be
an opening between two batteries (in my box) which allows
me to see it and poke if it ever gets clogged.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I'm thinking more of wather proof. Since my bed can tilt up and does
> not have the bed bolts in it, then I'd like the lid to be as durable as
> possible.
Ah. Drill a pair of holes in the bottom of your bed for drainage. The
plastic cover over the electrical goodies should keep things safe.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While the hybriousa link is extremely limited, apparently the batts
are available in the UK already. And are made by a company called
Uniross.
http://www.uniross.com/uniross.htm
On 9/12/06, Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I searched my archives of the list for the name but didn't find it:
http://www.hybriousa.com/
The website looks like a sham to me, but this is hitting all the eco news sites.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
