EV Digest 5867
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) re: Battery Choice and Range
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Cheap EV motor
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: 914 conversion
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Datsun 1200 Electric Car Pages on eBay
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Cheap EV ammeter
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Dateline article
by "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Another car show
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Cheap EV ammeter
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Gear ratio vs. horsepower
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Cheap EV motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Datsun 1200 Electric Car Pages on eBay
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Cheap EV ammeter
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Dateline article
by "Tim Ireland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: CBS evening News
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Cheap EV ammeter
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Addendum to Datsun article on eBay
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Dateline article
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Cheap EV motor
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Datsun 1200 Electric Car Pages on eBay
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: 914 conversion
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Cheap EV ammeter
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
According to Optima,
Their 75 Amp-HR (D31) batteries produce the following:
At 115 amp load, the battery lasts 22 min producing 42 AH
75 amp load, the battery lasts 47 min producing 58 AH
50 amp load, the battery lasts 70 min producing 58 AH
40 amp load, the battery lasts 90 min prodcing 60 AH
This results in 58% capacity rising to 80% depending on the draw on the
batteries. For my application, most of the draw is in the 40-60 amp range.
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:00 PM 12/09/06 -0500, Mark wrote:
Hmm, all the ammeters I find on home depot, lowes, sears are AC/DC Voltage
but only AC amp measurement
any suggestions on a meter that will measure DC amp draw?
no making fun of the newb, I know it's easy sometimes but control yourself
G'day Mark
Fluke and other people make an accessory clip-on transducer for
multimeters, 1mV/amp, AC or DC.
There are some cheaper ChiCom type AC/DC clamp meters that would do you,
dunno where you'd get them outside of Aus, though. Try the electrical
wholesalers in your area (the ones that supply electricians).
While you're at the electrical wholesalers, ask them about shunt ammeters -
they'll probably have to drag out the catalogue to find them and order them
in, but the price should be no worse than anywhere else.
You can shove a shunt in anywhere you need to, get a 0-100 meter that
matches the mV value of the shunts and treat that as 0-100% of the shunt
value, switch between shunts. I'm putting a 50A shunt in the charger path,
250A in the battery and 400A in the motor loop. Of course, I have a shunt
collection and can change them as I feel like it, but you'd need to decide
what you need in advance.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I respectifully disagree with Bob's comments about stripping the Voltksrabbit
to make the 914. Several reasons why:
The Rabbit most likely (haven't seen it though) has:
- 8" ADC
- 400 A controller (and remember it is used)
- 2/0 wiring that fit the Rabbit - some will be reusable, but not all
- an adapter plate that you are paying for but will have to scrap or try to
resell
- 96 V system ... 96 V charger ... 96 V gages ... lower current shunt ...
OK for the Rabbit, but not the parts that go with the 914. For the 914, you
want the 9" motor, 500 A controller, 120 - 144 V system, and everything that
goes with it. Used controllers (of the Curtis variety) also are questionable
depending on how they have been used or abused.
So, the cost of the rabbit + shipping is worth it if you want a Rabbit. If
you want soemthing more, buy what you want. Used parts are still out there,
like the 9" motor + adapter + ... that I found for only $600.
If you want a parts car for the motor and wires, check out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1981-Electric-VW-Rabbit-EV_W0QQitemZ250026539458
for only $2000. If you are close enough, that might be worth it for the
motor, charger, gages, and wires. Don't know about that controller though ...
Finally, I never like to see a good usable EV stripped. Unless it is
totaled, let's not take another one off the road to scavange parts.
Steve
Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- gary wrote:
>
> What are the chances that I could
> > recover my costs (not
> > labor) assuming that the car is pretty clean with
> > new paint, tires and
> > better brakes?
> Recover costs? Depends on driving habits. The more
> miles, the more you save on gas by buying
> electricity,
> so the faster it pays for itself. But it is still a
> process measured in years.
>
> - actually, I meant if I were to sell it after
> converting it. I'm sure
> it's a tough market, but it's the best bang for the
> buck in a usable EV
My Civic EV is based on a glider (frame) worth 2500 as
a gas burner today. The parts in the EV, including
1st set of batteries cost $9,000-- less if I get used
parts.
That's 11,000.
A Civvy del Sol just like mine (18 batteries) as well
as a hatch version sold for "close to" that.
Therefore, these individuals almost broke even. But
they were sold as gasoline approached highest cost,
and they were in CHERRY condition (ie, good batts.,
ceramic heaters, no corners cut RE: circuit breakers,
tie-downs, etc.)
If you look on the EV trading post, you can
occasionally pick up a complete conversion for 3K--
but they are rare. Consider the VoltsRabbit in Santa
Cruz listed right now. Considering the worth of the
parts (above), it makes lots of sense to buy it, and
strip her down, add $700 or so for an adapter plate to
a more updated model (let's say a Civic, for sake of
argument) and buy the glider to put it in. 3K sale +
700 adapter plate + 2500 glider, is 6200. You still
come out 2k ahead by going this route.
With all due respect to Rabbits, and those that
convert them thanks to good kits from reputable
converters, it's less likely you'll come close to
breaking even with a model like that, _in my humble
opinion_.
Sooo:
-what is the price of gas as you sell?
-what is the market for an EV in the driving area?
-what are the federal & state tax incentives?
-what type of conversion did you do? Floodies/AGM?
Truck/car? heater/not?
Hope that helps,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is another way to estimate your range, if you have a way to check the
specific gravity of the batteries.
After you do a full charge of the batteries, check the specific gravity, and
voltage of the your sample cells or battery.
Drive the every 5 miles and check again. You will notice that the graph
will project a curve which you then can project out to give you the
estimated range at different Percentage of Discharge.
If you just install new batteries, it best to check the battery clamps or
fastener torque at this time. Recheck the torque after your run. You will
find you may lose up to 5 in.lbs per run. It will become less shrink back
after you torque after each run.
At the time, I did this test with my new batteries, I did not have a Link-10
Emeter, but had a large GE industrial panel volt and amp meter, that are
design for a EV and for the voltage I have.
The meters have a running color graph, that displays the maximum voltage to
the minimum voltage that has a corresponding ampere display with the same
color graph.
After awhile I can just look at both displays and calculated the wattshr,
hp, ampere hours, specific gravity, percent of charge and range.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Battery choice and range
> > The 75.1 was the miles, when I first stop the EV.
> >
> > I did this only one time. Going to work which I would roller coast
> up a
> > steep hill at 300-600 amps, I would only get 15 miles at 50% DOD.
> >
> > Today I only discharge the batteries to 70 to 80% SOC or 20 to 30% DOD
> > which is about 18 miles.
> >
>
> This isn't the best number to use. Better to run your car at 50mph on
> a flat road, turn around and immediately run it the opposite
> direction. This cancels out not-quite-level roads and winds; the watts
> or watt-hrs/mi (amps or amp-hrs/mi ignores voltage sag) will be more
> useful for other EV owners to use for comparison, and if you have an
> emeter, you can do this over a very short distance and average the two
> directions without having to do a full range run.
>
> I only have the meters that come in an OEM Ranger, none of which are
> digital or accurate! I'd have to:
>
> 1) Fully charge the truck,
> 2) get to the nearest long, flat road,
> 3) drive both ways on that road,
> 4) get back to the charger,
> 5) fully charge the truck,
> 6) get kwh announcement from the Avcon (a whole number, unless it's
> been reset to zero, in which case it reads tenths up to 100kwh)
>
> This number is not energy from the pack, but *from the mains*, which
> also takes into account charger efficiency. I don't know how I'd get
> an accurate "in use" watt-hrs/mi from the truck as it is.
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about welding a bung (small scrap aluminum plate) behind the area needed
for a screw and drill / tap. That way you can get the amount of thread
needed for maximum strength (1.5 X bolt dia) and fix the original hole
problem.
Pedroman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:20 AM
To: James Massey
Subject: Re: Helicoil in 3/16" aluminum.
I usually use Permacoil. They are stainless and cheaper than Helicoil. The
real issue may appear to be the inserts length. 1.5 times the diameter. 6 x
1.5 = 9mm (.354") long for a .187" thick piece of aluminum. Bummer.
http://www.threadkits.com/perma/permacoil.html
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> G'day All
>
> Lots of discussion about Helicoils, but none about material
compatability.
>
> Are the battery boxes *always* dry? If not then putting a steel
helicoil,
> t-nut, rivet-nut etc is asking for a bigger hole from dissimilar metal
> electrolytic corrosion.
>
> Helicoils would be a poor choice, but even they should be stronger
> than
> tapped 3/16 aluminium. If the tapped aluminium lasted fairly well,
then a
> helicoil (properly installed) should be OK.
>
> My vote would be stainless t-nuts (following a philosophy of
> overkill),
> even if needed to be custom machined, provided there is enough room
to fit
> them. If t-nuts won't fit then try and get stainless rivet-nuts or
if the
> position is always dry then normal rivet-nuts (not sure what the
> 'real'
> name is for them).
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is a town or city in Massachusetts. Waterman went on to form U.S.
Electricar, makers of the Lectric Leopard.
Jeff
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Who or where is the Athol this 1973 article is talking about? It's as if I
imagined Plasma Boy in hornrim glasses:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280027887780
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Theres a vendor on EBay called "madeinchina2006" that sells digital readout
shunt ammeters up to 500 amps for about $20. You need to wire it up and
provide and enclosure and 5 volt power source, though.
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: At 09:00 PM 12/09/06 -0500, Mark wrote:
>Hmm, all the ammeters I find on home depot, lowes, sears are AC/DC Voltage
>but only AC amp measurement
>any suggestions on a meter that will measure DC amp draw?
>
>no making fun of the newb, I know it's easy sometimes but control yourself
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
>15 minutes or so and it's over. Of course I recorded it! VHS, though...
I got it here on my computer as a MPEG file, 350MB SVCD, if someone wants to
host it... If I understand correctly it will be available for watching on
the Dateline website shortly. http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/
It goes for about 20 minutes, not a bad story, especially considering
stories on Dateline are done by reporters travelling alone, no camera crews
etc. Of course, we've all heard this story a hundred times before. It was
great to see some airtime for EVs on Australian TV, there is rarely any
mention of them in the media here. It was also cool, but strange at the same
time to see all these people I "know" from this list from so far away on a
local TV show here in Oz!
I didn't quite like the throw in to the story, George doesn't really seem
understand what he's talking about. I thought his statement about the EV1
project saying "GM produced solar powered electric cars" could confuse some
or conjure up images of those little solar car racers. Still, I think they
managed to give a pretty good summary in the 20 minutes. Not a bad rundown
of the segment James, I'm no reviewer either! You did better than I could...
Cheers,
Dean
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil;
Any tricks to bending it?
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Marino [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 5:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Another car show
>From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Another car show
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:29:37 -0700 (PDT)
>
>One of the things that worries me about showing a car is the issue of
>prying fingers where they don't belong. You don't want to fry someone,
>it's bad press. I'm thinking of fabricating clear acrylic covers for
>the electronics so everyone could see, but no one could come to harm.
>Of course, I'd also open a breaker or pull an Anderson to make sure
>there is no battery connection to the exposed parts.
>
I'm taking the same approach. But, acrylic ( "plexiglass") will soften
and sag at a low temperture,. It's also britte, and will crack easily
at any holes, or under the least impact. If you end up going this
route, try using polycarbonate ( one brand is Lexan) instead. It's a
bit more expensive, but a dream to work with. And, it glues easily and
well with super-glue.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about the motor side of a Z1k? Does anyone have a recommendation for an
ammeter that will go
up to the limits of the Zilla? Though I doubt I'll see 1000 amps, I'd like to
have the right meter
in place.
Dave Cover
--- Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Theres a vendor on EBay called "madeinchina2006" that sells digital readout
> shunt ammeters up to
> 500 amps for about $20. You need to wire it up and provide and enclosure and
> 5 volt power
> source, though.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, I would rather you hold off until you get the proper relays. When the
contacts stick on, the chances of the elements melting the heater box are
quite good. Also look at two other safety devices:
- putting a snubber circuit across the contacts to help the arc
extinguish.
- overtemp circuits
Until the relays arrive, maybe use a 120V in car heater to take off the
frost in morning.
Don
My schematic for my heater system is here:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater_install.html
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: September 13, 2006 12:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
I have a P&B KUEP-11D15-12 which is a DPDT contactor rated at 150VDC and 3A
per contact. I want to use this to switch my single ceramic heater module.
I've tested the element and in the garage starting at 70*F two elements pull
3A and all four elements pull
5 amps with a household fan blowing from 6" away. I'm running 192V pack
voltage. This contactor is not precisely rated to run this load so I'm
wondering, at least until I can get a better suited relay (or multiple
relays) would it be a safer stretch of the limits to
A.) run two elements on each pole meeting the 3A capacity of each, but at
42V over the 150V limit
or
B.) run all four elements with both poles in series for a 300V rating but at
2A over the rated 3A capacity?
If I get the whoa dude, whateryadoing thing I suppose I could just run only
two elements through both poles in series to meet both the Voltage and
Current ratings. Its not that cold yet so I just need to break the chill in
the morning drive to work. By the time it starts getting dark before I get
home I'll have found a better relay for the job. Anyone know a single relay
in this style that would handle the 192V and up to 10A?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So, using an 18" wheel, and a 3.66 differential will definitely get you to
70MPH, but how fast will you get there?
Acceleration to speed is a much more complicated question. It has to take
into account the vehicle weight, the torque curve of the motor and the gears
of the transmission. I use CarTest2000 software to simulate 0-60, 1/4 mile
times and various track times. I think the software can be used for free,
but is relatively inexpensive anyways.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: September 13, 2006 1:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Gear ratio vs. horsepower
So, using an 18" wheel, and a 3.66 differential will definitely get you to
70MPH, but how fast will you get there?
I'm hoping with a 120v Curtis and an L91 (or maybe a little bigger) Would do
the job. I've noticed most of the fixed ratio ev's have lots of motor and
controller. I suspect using an 8" might be possible but it's starting to
get awful big. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Gear ratio vs. horsepower
> Lawrence,
>
> As you know, I've also been researching building an EV motorcycle.
>
> Here's some of the stuff I've gleaned, from lots of reading and asking
> questions:
>
> Using a transmission is difficult because most bikes don't have a
> separate transmission. Most Harleys do, and some foreign models. Most
> of the cheap / easy to obtain rollers have an integrated transmission.
>
> A transmission isn't always the answer. For a bike, the answer I seem
> to get is "use a bigger motor, controller, and more batteries", then use
> a fixed ratio that's geared for the top speed you desire. Simply make
> sure you have a beefy enough setup so that your acceleration isn't
> poor. IOW, use more amps, and less gears. This was the whole point of
> the Zilla 2 motor setup.
>
> Horsepower remains the same regardless of gear ratio (not accounting for
> efficiency losses). HP = Torque * Speed. Gearing reduces speed and
> raise torque as the power goes from the motor to the wheel. At zero
> speed, torque is the only thing that makes you begin moving.
>
> If you consider 6000RPM to be the max for your motor, and 18" to be your
> wheel diameter and 70 MPH to be your target speed:
>
> 70MPH = 1.16 Miles Per Minute (mpm) = 6124.8 FPM
> 18" Diameter = 56.5" circumference = 4.72'
> 6124.8 FPM /4.72' = 1298 RPM @ rear wheel
> 6000RPM / 1298RPM =4.62:1 Gear ratio, or lower for 70 MPH
>
> Now, if you use a 24" rear wheel:
>
> 70MPH = 1.16 Miles Per Minute (mpm) = 6124.8 FPM
> 24" Diameter = 75.398" Circ = 6.28'
> 6124.8 / 6.28' = 975 RPM
> 6000 / 975 = 6.153:1 ratio or lower for 70MPH
>
> So, using an 18" wheel, and a 3.66 differential will definitely get you
> to 70MPH, but how fast will you get there?
>
> In the end, if you do find a suitable shaft drive for your uses, I'd be
> interested to hear which one you picked and why. Seems a large shaft
> drive touring bike (like a Gold Wing) is a good start because the GW is
> a heavy bike with a rather powerful motor, and should be well suited to
> EM torques and weights, at least compared to lighter donors.
>
> EP
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I've been looking at a lot of motorcycles with shaft drive. I seem to
> > recall John Wayland way back in the dark ages being involved with a
shaft
> > drive motorcycle. John uses a 9 inch with a rear end in the 4 to 1
range on
> > Zombie. Otmar uses 3rd gear only in Poppy. Not sure what that is or if
> > there is reduction from the dual motor setup. The Tropica uses two 72v
> > motors in a fixed ratio. The Sparrow is also fixed ratio. It seems to
me
> > to get high speed and torque off the line to hill climb from a stop
there
> > has to be a lot of horsepower if you are going to use a 3 to 1 ratio.
If
> > you factor in weight there must be some formula to determine the hp to
get a
> > useable fixed ratio EV. Since 4.5 to 1 works on the Lectra at 48v & 750
> > pounds with an 18 inch wheel I'd think quadrupling the hp & reducing
the
> > ratio to 3 to 1 with a larger wheel would give more speed and still
allow
> > hill climbing from a stop. My plan is to use a shaft drive crusier
bike.
> > The ratio's I've seen are as low as 3.66 to 1 and as high as mid 2's to
1.
> > I'd like to use the smallest motor possible but it looks like I'd
probably
> > need an L91 at 120v to get 70mph and still climb hills from a stop. I
would
> > think heat to be an issue so the bigger the motor the better. But then
> > again it's a motorcycle. 150 pounds might be to heavy. Lawrence
Rhodes....
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark McCurdy wrote:
Hmm, all the ammeters I find on home depot, lowes, sears are AC/DC
Voltage but only AC amp measurement
any suggestions on a meter that will measure DC amp draw?
The average home hobbyist doesn't need to measure high current DC, so
none of the mass-marketed meters do it. However, you can buy a shunt
(basically, just a precision low-value resistor) that converts current
to voltage. Any standard meter can measure the voltage across the shunt,
and display it as current.
For example, a "500 amp, 50 millivolt shunt" is a common size. With it,
500a reads 50mv; 100a reads 10mv, 10a reads 1mv, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I used a Helicoil in 3/16 aluminum. The insert does (in this case) hang
down under the bracket, but there's enough still in the bracket to hold
the screw. You may be able to snip off the extra if it's a problem.
Another solution would be to use RivNuts or NutSerts. These are nuts
that install like pop-rivets. More information can be found at
http://www.crestfasteners.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?search=action&category=0015&keywords=all
or
http://www.aboveboardelectronics.com/Avdel/blind/nutsert.htm
Ralph
Mike Phillips writes:
>
> I usually use Permacoil. They are stainless and cheaper than Helicoil.
> The real issue may appear to be the inserts length. 1.5 times the
> diameter. 6 x 1.5 = 9mm (.354") long for a .187" thick piece of
> aluminum. Bummer.
>
> http://www.threadkits.com/perma/permacoil.html
>
> Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Wow, what a surprise to get up this morning, and see this on the EVDL. I
was not aware that Car and Driver magazine had ever had a story about an
electric Datsun 1200 sedan... this, coming from a guy who has an
original copy of the 'Popular Mechanics' magazine article of Wally Ripel
(featured in WKTEC) and his converted Datsun 1200 sedan. It's
interesting that of the big 3 car mags, Motor Trend , Road & Track, Car
and Driver, that it was Car and Driver who back in '73 had an article
about a Datsun 1200 electric...and it's even a white sedan like mine! At
the time when 1200s were available, 1971 thru 1973, the fastback model
sold at maybe a 5 to 1 ratio over the less popular sedan. Maybe Nissan's
early 70's ads had something to do with this, as they would picture a
fastback 1200 with the caption 'We took the 'Ugly' out of economy!'
Let's see...the chances of it being in Car and Driver over the other two
mags, is 1 in 3, the chances of it being a sedan over a fastback is 1 in
5, and the chances of it being white over the 6 other colors offered - a
funky army green, red, baby sh-t gold, turquoise, burnt orange, and the
royal blue that was Blue Meanie's original color, is 1 in 7.
How weird is it, that right when Car and Driver magazine is preparing to
run a story about electric cars that includes the author racing in an
electric white Datsun 1200 sedan, that this ancient Car and Driver
magazine article featuring a white electric Datsun 1200 sedan pops up on
eBay?
See Ya......John
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At 06:49 AM 9/13/2006, Steve Condie wrote:
Theres a vendor on EBay called "madeinchina2006" that sells digital
readout shunt ammeters up to 500 amps for about $20. You need to
wire it up and provide and enclosure and 5 volt power source, though.
Or use one of the many surplus electronics places to find one:
http://www.halted.com
http://www.mpja.com
http://www.action-electronics.com/
http://www.allelectronics.com/
http://www.sciplus.com/
http://www.mcphee.com/
http://goldmine-elec.com/
http://www.aaaim.com/CandH/
http://www.excess-solutions.com/
http://www.dla.mil/drms
http://www.herbach.com/
http://www.hosfelt.com/
http://www.jameco.com/
http://www.meci.com/
http://hotphones.com/
http://www.repc.com/
http://www.resunltd4u.com/
http://www.softwareandstuff.com/
http://www.surplusrecord.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/Electronics-From-Golden-O
http://www.alltronics.com/
http://www.weirdstuff.com/
http://www.surplussales.com/
http://www.timeline-inc.com/
http://www.shopeio.com/
http://www.surpluscenter.com/
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/index.jsp?czuid=1117005970047
http://www.blowerwheel.com/products.htm
http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/surplus/retail/index.html
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Yep... I got back to Adelaide from Sydney, plane got in early, taxi home
and in the door after 3 days away... Hi, how's the kids, oh do you mind
if I flick it over to SBS for a couple of minutes?
Missed the intro and maybe the first couple of minutes... but it was
worth a look. James' description is pretty much it, and more than you
would have got from me this side of a good sleep!
Was great to see some of the people that I sort of 'know' from this
list, and also to see some EV racing action on a big TV screen rather
than in a 3"x3" grainy window on the PC!
Tim
South Australia
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Can someone put it up on youtube or google video?
Matt
On 9/12/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Heads up on the west side, If you can, try and watch the CBS Evening News, I'll swear
that our friends at "pluginamerica"
wrote the piece on "The Car of the Future" hope they repeat it.
Joe in Cincy
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Hello Dave,
Surplus Sales of Nebraska, have panel type DC amp meters. One is
200/400/1000,2000 amps rating by Hickok and another one at 0-1200 amps DC by
Simpson for $20.00.
Both of these meters requires any 50 mv shunt.
www.surplusales.com
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap EV ammeter
> How about the motor side of a Z1k? Does anyone have a recommendation for
> an ammeter that will go
> up to the limits of the Zilla? Though I doubt I'll see 1000 amps, I'd like
> to have the right meter
> in place.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Theres a vendor on EBay called "madeinchina2006" that sells digital
> > readout shunt ammeters up to
> > 500 amps for about $20. You need to wire it up and provide and
> > enclosure and 5 volt power
> > source, though.
> >
>
>
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Death to All Spammers wrote:
No, they're not, but it *was* 1973 -- they had contactors back then
but there weren't any modern EVs being produced
"Modern" EVs in 1973 were almost exactly like "modern" EVs today: I.e.
lots of them existed as prototypes and hobbyist vehicles; but none were
being produced for sale.
Motors: Same as today; series DC, sepex DC, PM DC, induction AC,
and brushless AC were the most common.
Controllers: Same again; contactors, PWM DC, AC 3-phase inverter.
Batteries: Even these were similar; most were lead-acid (flooded,
gel, or AGM). Then the exotics like nickel-cadmium (sealed
and flooded), nickel-iron (which became today's nimh),
nickel-zinc (still promoted as "just around the corner"),
silver-zinc (used in the Apollo Lunar Rover), sodium-sulfur,
and many variants of lithium batteries.
Anyone know what other technology was available in 1973 for an
> EV controller?
Contactor controllers (around since the 1800s).
Sepex controllers (since the 1920's). They used contactors for large
speed changes, and field control for small smooth adjustments. Added
smooth speed control, regenerative braking, and other features.
SCR chopper (since the 1960's). GE and Cableform were building them back
then, and still are today.
Transistor PWM (since the 1970's). The ones back then used bipolar or
darlington transistors; today's use MOSFETs and IGBTs. Back in the
1970's, there were a dozen transistor PWM controller manufacturers
including Curtis, Russco, and Sevcon.
It is easy to fool oneself into believing that today's wonderful
technology is tremendously advanced over that primitive old junk. You'd
be wrong. Technology in fact moves v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y ... It's just
that every tiny 1% improvement is hyped as a miraculous breakthrough.
Incredible new battery technologies are loudly trumpeted, but then
quietly vanish without a trace.
What have we actually accomplished in the last 30 years in EVs? We've
gained a few percent in motor efficiency (75-85% was normal then; today
it's 80-90%). Run-of-the-mill flooded batteries are a few percent
better, and we have a few more options when cost is no object.
Controllers are a little cheaper and a lot smaller and quieter. They
operate smoother, and have more bells and whistles (owing to micros);
but otherwise their efficiency is unchanged.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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> I got it here on my computer as a MPEG file, 350MB SVCD, if someone
wants to
> host it... If I understand correctly it will be available for
watching on
> the Dateline website shortly. http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/
>
>
That link leads to a page with the transcript (better 'n nuthin!). He
does call the controller a "Ziller", which has a nice ring to it -
killer Zilla with ex-ziller-ation!
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Sears has two versions that are ac and dc, volts and amps, clamp on
type meter. I've had one for a couple years and love it.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hmm, all the ammeters I find on home depot, lowes, sears are AC/DC
Voltage
> but only AC amp measurement
> any suggestions on a meter that will measure DC amp draw?
>
> no making fun of the newb, I know it's easy sometimes but control
yourself
> :op
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 8:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Cheap EV motor
>
>
> > Hey Mark
> > Thought I'd pass this to the list 8^ )
> >
> > Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to this. First off it'd
be nice
> > to know what amp draw and RPM's the motor was running at under the
12 volt
> > test. BTW you're lucky that wasn't a series motor when you
started it on
> > it's nose and it spun on the Oops video 8^)
> >
> > Okay here's how I see this motor and some possible options and
thoughts.
> >
> > One option would be to hunt up a field coil from a series wound
"1344"
> > GE. It would make this motor a series wound motor with a perfect EV
> > shaft style. GE makes a lot of these 1344 sized motor so they are
out
> > there to be had.
> >
> > Another thought I had was separating the shunt leads from the series
> > wound wire. You could then use this as a series wound motor but
also have
> > the ability to connect the shunt for a dual speed motor with possible
> > re-gen 8^ ). My only concern is, are there enough winds in the
series
> > coil to do this without over straining anything.
> >
> > There has been some doubt as to whether this motor can produce
enough HP
> > to drive a daily. This could only result in the difference of
field coils
> > as the armatures are the same. I talked to Wayland about this and
he said
> > you could take off in series and then connect the shunt winding
once some
> > speed was obtained.
> >
> > Just for fun when you get it back together try this. On one of the
> > holders there will be a small wire connected by screw from the coils.
> > Remove it and run the motor, it'll be much faster now (no head
standing on
> > this, okay 8^P Now touch that wire to the holder and she'll purr
right
> > down in both RPM's and amps.
> >
> > IMO this is a new motor in awesome shape with lots of promise,
and like
> > Lee said is NOT a 2 HP motor. You will need to do a few small
things to
> > get this done but it'd be cake work and I could walk you through.
> >
> > Bottom line is even if you put a few hundred into a series coil,
you have
> > a 9" motor for around 500 bucks, that's pretty darn good 8^) Now
I know
> > people are running light cars with just 7" 36 / 48 prestolites so
this guy
> > should have no problems scooting you right along 8^ )
> >
> > Anyway I hope this helps, please keep us posted as to your
progress and
> > if there are any other questions.
> >
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
> >
>
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> It is a town or city in Massachusetts. Waterman went on to form
U.S. Electricar, makers of the Lectric Leopard.
>
> Jeff
>
That must be the town referred to in the song "Entering Marion" -
http://www.johnforster.com/ENT_MAR.html - it's on one of my Dr Demento
CDs! Sorry, no EV content here, just thought it was funny that Lectric
Leopards came out of Athol...
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--- Begin Message ---
Steve, you totally missed Bob's point.
He was answering the question of whether or not you can build a conversion
and sell it for a profit.
He used the rabbit as an example of the FACT that most conversions sell
for less than the price of the components. In his example he specified
buying the rabbit and moving the parts to a more modern economy car, not
the 914.
Even with todays gas prices it's tough to sell a conversion at a profit.
Unfortunately, the price of gas is dropping. This means that, even though
gas is still expensive, most people will start thinking "that's no so
bad".
> I respectifully disagree with Bob's comments about stripping the
> Voltksrabbit to make the 914. Several reasons why:
>
> The Rabbit most likely (haven't seen it though) has:
> - 8" ADC
> - 400 A controller (and remember it is used)
> - 2/0 wiring that fit the Rabbit - some will be reusable, but not all
> - an adapter plate that you are paying for but will have to scrap or try
> to resell
> - 96 V system ... 96 V charger ... 96 V gages ... lower current shunt
> ...
>
> OK for the Rabbit, but not the parts that go with the 914. For the 914,
> you want the 9" motor, 500 A controller, 120 - 144 V system, and
> everything that goes with it. Used controllers (of the Curtis variety)
> also are questionable depending on how they have been used or abused.
>
> So, the cost of the rabbit + shipping is worth it if you want a Rabbit.
> If you want soemthing more, buy what you want. Used parts are still out
> there, like the 9" motor + adapter + ... that I found for only $600.
>
> If you want a parts car for the motor and wires, check out:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1981-Electric-VW-Rabbit-EV_W0QQitemZ250026539458
> for only $2000. If you are close enough, that might be worth it for the
> motor, charger, gages, and wires. Don't know about that controller
> though ...
>
> Finally, I never like to see a good usable EV stripped. Unless it is
> totaled, let's not take another one off the road to scavange parts.
>
> Steve
>
>
> Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> --- gary wrote:
>
>>
>> What are the chances that I could
>> > recover my costs (not
>> > labor) assuming that the car is pretty clean with
>> > new paint, tires and
>> > better brakes?
>> Recover costs? Depends on driving habits. The more
>> miles, the more you save on gas by buying
>> electricity,
>> so the faster it pays for itself. But it is still a
>> process measured in years.
>>
>> - actually, I meant if I were to sell it after
>> converting it. I'm sure
>> it's a tough market, but it's the best bang for the
>> buck in a usable EV
>
> My Civic EV is based on a glider (frame) worth 2500 as
> a gas burner today. The parts in the EV, including
> 1st set of batteries cost $9,000-- less if I get used
> parts.
> That's 11,000.
>
> A Civvy del Sol just like mine (18 batteries) as well
> as a hatch version sold for "close to" that.
> Therefore, these individuals almost broke even. But
> they were sold as gasoline approached highest cost,
> and they were in CHERRY condition (ie, good batts.,
> ceramic heaters, no corners cut RE: circuit breakers,
> tie-downs, etc.)
> If you look on the EV trading post, you can
> occasionally pick up a complete conversion for 3K--
> but they are rare. Consider the VoltsRabbit in Santa
> Cruz listed right now. Considering the worth of the
> parts (above), it makes lots of sense to buy it, and
> strip her down, add $700 or so for an adapter plate to
> a more updated model (let's say a Civic, for sake of
> argument) and buy the glider to put it in. 3K sale +
> 700 adapter plate + 2500 glider, is 6200. You still
> come out 2k ahead by going this route.
> With all due respect to Rabbits, and those that
> convert them thanks to good kits from reputable
> converters, it's less likely you'll come close to
> breaking even with a model like that, _in my humble
> opinion_.
> Sooo:
> -what is the price of gas as you sell?
> -what is the market for an EV in the driving area?
> -what are the federal & state tax incentives?
> -what type of conversion did you do? Floodies/AGM?
> Truck/car? heater/not?
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
> rates starting at 1¢/min.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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I saw the 1200 amp one, but where to get a matching shunt? I probably looked at
most of those
links and found very few shunts. Shunts-R-Us? Doesn't the shunt have to be
matched to scale of the
meter? If I understand it correctly, the meter is just readin 0-50mv, but the
shunt has to be
calibrated so you have 50mv voltage drop at full current. In this case at 1200
amps. Yes/no?
Dave Cover
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Dave,
>
> Surplus Sales of Nebraska, have panel type DC amp meters. One is
> 200/400/1000,2000 amps rating by Hickok and another one at 0-1200 amps DC by
> Simpson for $20.00.
>
> Both of these meters requires any 50 mv shunt.
>
> www.surplusales.com
>
> Roland
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