EV Digest 5905
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: OT Re: New GM electric car
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Motors
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New guy on the list
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Mother Earth News Hybrid
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OT Re: New GM electric car
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: New guy on the list
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New guy on the list
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Rendezvous, was Ultimate Tesla Promo
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Drafting gone wild
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) OT Re: New GM electric car
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: If you liked the "Strange EV on eBay" thread...
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Xebra test drive from the Arcane list.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Mother Earth News Hybrid
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: If you liked the "Strange EV on eBay" thread...
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: If you liked the "Strange EV on eBay" thread...
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: another EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: If you liked the "Strange EV on eBay" thread...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: siemens ac drive questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Many people on this list are off beat in one way or another.
Please do not make it a personal matter if you receive some
critical notes, supported with data in an open discussion
and try to take attacks in a factual manner, not aimed at
the person. This list is pretty direct and can say harsh
things, without meaning that you are bad or wrong, just
that the arguments or cause you present does not make sense.
Taking it personal does not benefit anyone, so it is a waste
of energy. Sharing your data and ideas allows everyone to learn.
Thanks for the discussion and the interesting arguments, do
stick around.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Norton
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 6:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: OT Re: New GM electric car
.... I know, its hard escaping the cocoon, opening up to what someone
who doesn't necessarily agree with you thinks, but you might try once in
a while. But Death to All Spammers captured it all. I am "off the
beat" of this list. So instead of reading what I wrote to see what I
think, please insist that I am a mere shill for the enemy. That way you
can feel superior by being dismissive.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Curtis,
The motor will be a Warp 11 by Net Gain for use for a transmission or a
TransWarp 11 for connecting directly to the drive shaft.
The TransWarp 11 is a direct replacement for my GE 11 which is only 0.05
inch in diameter difference and the length is the same to the drive shaft.
This motor is a double ended shaft which are the same diameter, if you want
to couple two motors together. The motor has a shorty tailshaft housing
from a Chevrolet Turbo 400 transmission fitting the drive end shaft.
It has a bolt holes tap in the pilot shaft end that you can bolt a speed
sensor, alternator, vacuum pump, and accessories as you can as on to a
engine.
The Warp 11 has all the same specifications as the as the TransWarp 11
except you need a adapter if you want to fit a transmission to it. This is
also a direct replacement for my GE-11 using a transmission with a short
tail shaft.
Net Gain will customize anything you want on this motor. You can have motor
mount tap holes on the side of the motor, to fit the standard engine mounts
that are in the vehicle.
This motor is a true traction motor like my GE-11. All you have to do is
pull the engine and transmission and bolt this motor with transmission or no
transmission using the same engine mounts and transmission mounts. About a
4 hour job. There is no making of special mounts or adapters or couplers.
The 11's will pull twice the torque at 1500 rpm at half the ampere as with a
Warp 9 or a ADC 9 which would be the same torque and ampere at about 3000
rpm.
My GE 11 pulls 175 motor and battery amperes at 60 mph in 3rd gear ratio of
5.57:1.
The Warp 9 which is the wrong type of motor for my EV which weighs 6860
lbs. In 2nd gear ratio of 13.5:1 at 3000 rpm which is about 30 mph the
motor it will pull 200 motor amps which was calculated by NetGain with
there motor spreadsheet.
You can contact George F. Hamstra at NetGain to calculated exactly what
motor type and size you need for your EV by giving him the weight,
transmission gear ratios at each speed, the axle ratio, wheel and tire size,
controller type, battery pack voltage, type of battery and ampere hour. He
will than send you a Email on the data of the motor which is needed listing
the motor amperes, battery amperes, maximum rpm, torque, type of brushes and
the best torque per rpm efficiency curves.
The Contact Email is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 7:05 PM
Subject: Motors
> If you have $4,000 to spend on a motor, what brand of motor would you buy,
> and why?
>
>
>
> Curtis Muhlestein
>
> Riverton Utha
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Michael-- welcome to the list. Many of us have
backgrounds outside of EE. I'm a biology major, but
the fact that there are EEs on the list means we
actually learn the right answers to whatever questions
come up.
As far as quoted ranges go, (914 project), some of
the builders of these kits/owners of the companies
contribute to the list. And as a lister, if you're
intending to purchase from them, you want to be
polite.
I've never had experience with the 914 kit from EV
parts, so I can't comment. But I do know that 1/3 of
my car's weight is in lead acid batteries, and I've
done 38 miles at 55 mph with some stop/go/hills, and I
was getting fairly toward the end of my range.
You're right; we're all hungry for lithium. While
it's still unavailable to us hobbyists (low qty).,
I've sure read lots about new companies ramping up
production lately for hybrid stuff. Hopefully they
soon will be of a type that can have 200A pulled out
of them comfortably.
FWIW, I started with a VoltsRabbit by Mike Brown.
Picked it up for $3K, put another 4K into controller
upgrade, batteries, upholstery, and paint. Found out
I want more space, but love EVs. It was cheap and fun
to get into at that low price. But as gas prices have
risen, so have prices of used EVs. Happy searching!
--- Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just thought I'd jump in and say hello.
>
> I'm a new guy on the list interested in building an
> electric car. (Yes, I
> just saw "Who killed the electric car")
>
> So I'm looking for some advice. I'm NOT an
> electrical engineer, I'm a
> software architect, so most of the conversation I've
> seen today about
> batteries is over my head, but I am getting the idea
> that there is not a
> viable Lithium solution at this point?
>
> After reading about the Tesla, I was hoping someone
> else might have made
> some headway in that department. While a 40 mile
> range may get me into town,
> it might not get me back!
>
> Ok I'm rambling. Let me get back on track.
>
> I want to start simple, a basic learning project,
> but I also want it to be
> usable.
>
> I was looking at the Porsche 914 conversion kit at
>
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=1010&product_id=2
>
> Is this a decent starter project? Are the projected
> top speed (85 mph) and
> range (80 - 100 miles) at all accurate? I've looked
> at other's 914
> conversions and most of them are in the 30-40 mile
> range.
>
> Are there options I should choose to make it more
> efficient, more powerful,
> more range etc..?
>
> Is there a better starter project?
>
> Sorry for so many questions. The information I've
> been gathering the last
> few days is sooo disparate and confusing.
>
> Thanks for any help/advice you can give.
>
> Mike Trefry
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:26 AM 9/22/2006, you wrote:
Rod, I feel your pain but....
Why are you getting upset about a 13-year-old article?
Because I'm sure that, like we do, Rod regularly hears from people
who want to build this bloody thing. I have spent (wasted) a lot of
time trying to dissuade people on this old chestnut, not always
successfully. "But...the article says it works!"
The hybrid Mike built in the early '80s was a rescue of an
unsuccessful attempt to build a M.E.N. hybrid.
AND M.E.N. just ran a piece last year with "resources" for electric
conversions which included these plans. The damn things just won't die.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Part of me thinks if I just ignore it, this thread will go away,
while another part of me hopes, almost certainly in vain, to come up
with adequate words to put it to rest or at least start the process.
Some points to consider:
1. If GM doesn't consider it an electric vehicle, but rather a fuel
cell vehicle, then why are you surprised that most list members seem
to agree with GM and also not consider it an electric vehicle? I
would hazard a guess that the ability to plug in and recharge from an
electric source is what most of us would consider a reasonable
definition of an electric vehicle. Since a fuel cell vehicle instead
has to be fueled, you can kind of see why they would have a problem.
2. Given GMs recent history with the EV-1, it is hard to not take
everything they say or do with more than a bit of
suspicion. Conspiracy? Who needs a conspiracy when you such a ready
supply of simple incompetence. If they were really on top of things,
would they be loosing their shirts?
3. The fuel cell vehicle does face some rather daunting obstacles to
widespread adoption. Is it possible that a major breakthrough might
change all that? Certainly. Do I personally believe it is
likely? Unfortunately, no, but if I am wrong it certainly won't be
the first time. I did try to bet a local fuel cell enthusiast a
couple of years ago about this. My offer was simple. If, anytime in
the next 15 years, I could walk into a car dealer anywhere in the
Kansas City area and find a fuel cell vehicle for sale to the general
public, then I would buy him the best steak dinner in town. He
turned me down. In retrospect, I should have offered him 30
years. Keep in mind, GM has been showing off fuel cell vehicle
prototypes since about 1966.
4. Battery electric vehicles, at their current state of development,
do offer adequate capability to meet the daily needs of a majority of
the population, even if they don't believe it. Public perception may
be a larger issue than the technology. Will the BEV continue to
advance? Certainly. Could there be a major breakthrough on the near
horizon? Maybe, but they have been saying that for years. Will we
see them on the showrooms of middle America in the near future? I
don't know, maybe, but if so I doubt they will say "Made in the USA"
on them. :^(
So, where does this leave us? I don't know, but I do ask if we could
all try to back off take a deep breath and try seeing things from the
opposite perspective before posting a message that might raise
someone's blood pressure.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
One of the places that I go everyday is greencarcongress.com. It gives you
a lot of information about what is happening in the world regarding
transportation. Here is a link to a great article:
http://peakoil.com/fortopic9721.html
Curtis Muhlestein
Riverton Utah
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New guy on the list
Howdy Michael-- welcome to the list. Many of us have
backgrounds outside of EE. I'm a biology major, but
the fact that there are EEs on the list means we
actually learn the right answers to whatever questions
come up.
As far as quoted ranges go, (914 project), some of
the builders of these kits/owners of the companies
contribute to the list. And as a lister, if you're
intending to purchase from them, you want to be
polite.
I've never had experience with the 914 kit from EV
parts, so I can't comment. But I do know that 1/3 of
my car's weight is in lead acid batteries, and I've
done 38 miles at 55 mph with some stop/go/hills, and I
was getting fairly toward the end of my range.
You're right; we're all hungry for lithium. While
it's still unavailable to us hobbyists (low qty).,
I've sure read lots about new companies ramping up
production lately for hybrid stuff. Hopefully they
soon will be of a type that can have 200A pulled out
of them comfortably.
FWIW, I started with a VoltsRabbit by Mike Brown.
Picked it up for $3K, put another 4K into controller
upgrade, batteries, upholstery, and paint. Found out
I want more space, but love EVs. It was cheap and fun
to get into at that low price. But as gas prices have
risen, so have prices of used EVs. Happy searching!
--- Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just thought I'd jump in and say hello.
>
> I'm a new guy on the list interested in building an
> electric car. (Yes, I
> just saw "Who killed the electric car")
>
> So I'm looking for some advice. I'm NOT an
> electrical engineer, I'm a
> software architect, so most of the conversation I've
> seen today about
> batteries is over my head, but I am getting the idea
> that there is not a
> viable Lithium solution at this point?
>
> After reading about the Tesla, I was hoping someone
> else might have made
> some headway in that department. While a 40 mile
> range may get me into town,
> it might not get me back!
>
> Ok I'm rambling. Let me get back on track.
>
> I want to start simple, a basic learning project,
> but I also want it to be
> usable.
>
> I was looking at the Porsche 914 conversion kit at
>
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=1010&product_id=2
>
> Is this a decent starter project? Are the projected
> top speed (85 mph) and
> range (80 - 100 miles) at all accurate? I've looked
> at other's 914
> conversions and most of them are in the 30-40 mile
> range.
>
> Are there options I should choose to make it more
> efficient, more powerful,
> more range etc..?
>
> Is there a better starter project?
>
> Sorry for so many questions. The information I've
> been gathering the last
> few days is sooo disparate and confusing.
>
> Thanks for any help/advice you can give.
>
> Mike Trefry
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael, welcome to the list.
Have you considered buying an existing electric car?
Jack
Michael Trefry wrote:
Just thought I'd jump in and say hello.
I'm a new guy on the list interested in building an electric car. (Yes, I
just saw "Who killed the electric car")
So I'm looking for some advice. I'm NOT an electrical engineer, I'm a
software architect, so most of the conversation I've seen today about
batteries is over my head, but I am getting the idea that there is not a
viable Lithium solution at this point?
After reading about the Tesla, I was hoping someone else might have made
some headway in that department. While a 40 mile range may get me into town,
it might not get me back!
Ok I'm rambling. Let me get back on track.
I want to start simple, a basic learning project, but I also want it to be
usable.
I was looking at the Porsche 914 conversion kit at
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=1010&product_id=2
Is this a decent starter project? Are the projected top speed (85 mph) and
range (80 - 100 miles) at all accurate? I've looked at other's 914
conversions and most of them are in the 30-40 mile range.
Are there options I should choose to make it more efficient, more powerful,
more range etc..?
Is there a better starter project?
Sorry for so many questions. The information I've been gathering the last
few days is sooo disparate and confusing.
Thanks for any help/advice you can give.
Mike Trefry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The only version I found was all in French on Google. Appears to be a
> Mercedes sedan.
>
> Mike
Yup - that's the one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwKhd_KzwHA
(maybe Phillipe can review it). Sorry if this thread is OT, but I
really hoped a Tesla could do this - unfortunately, it also sounds
like an illegal and unsafe way to drive in a city (especially S.F.
like I suggested).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I promise I was 4-5 car lengths back.
Mike
--- Michael Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You guys must be drafting at less than 5 feet from the rear of the
> truck.
> That's an interesting position, if the semi so much as taps his
> brakes. Judi
> got a ticket, 72MPH, for drafting... on a 150cc Honda scooter. She
> asked why
> she was pulled over, when the truck was doing the same speed. The cop
> answered that she was the greater risk.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Rich Long" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Drafting gone wild
>
>
> > It could happen! I know I'm going to try and repeat it. Maybe take
> a
> > leason from the derby team and put magnets in the front bumper.
> >
> > The truck does have reasonable rolling efficiency. But this morning
> > was rediculous :)
> >
> > Mike
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So, where does this leave us? I don't know, but I do ask if we could
> all try to back off take a deep breath and try seeing things from the
> opposite perspective before posting a message that might raise
> someone's blood pressure.
>
Thanks for summing it up for us, Mike. Maybe seeing clips of WKtEC has
me sensitive to the hype, but it'll probably get worse when I get the
DVD (yes, preordered through Amazon).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> That is something that can be reported to EBay. They don't care so much
> about fraud (very hard to prove) but they care very much about shill
buying
> and selling. They'll probably ban the guy... but maybe only for a
few weeks.
>
I have reported the seller - maybe others should, too, just to make
sure they get the hint.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since Tesla also knows about the Li-Ion vulnerability to
self-destruction, could they have built a protection into
their layered battery pack?
Maybe temp sensors on a real BMS?
Or made sure that they had the proper, not-contaminated
materials in their cells?
Most Li-Ions die when they are accidentally over-discharged
so a good BMS and this does not happen.
Anyway - DELL did not recall a single laptop.
Only a limited series of Sony-made batteries were recalled.
I have several DELL laptops around and even a stack
of spare batteries, from all kinds of dates.
None of the batteries I had were part of the recall.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
enthusiasts)-Long
>> Puncture a stock laptop Li-Ion and it bursts in to flames.
>Good data point. You have done this, right? So it is not a myth?
Yes, I have done this and I've done it with Lithium Polymer cells as well.
You might be one of the few using Li-Pos in an EV but there are hobbies that
have been using them much much longer. There are videos around of these
tests. I'm sure there is one on the valance site even, I think they start
off shooting the cells with a bullet, that's a little extreme, however later
they show a simple laptop cell puncture test. Kaboom.
Here ya go: http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Now a polymer:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5800338&postcount=4
>> Two reasons why I have not ordered a Tesla, first they are left hand
>> drive but I would not buy a car using stock laptop cells.
>> All it takes is one of the 7000 cells to be faulty and, you will be
>> killed.
> Really? One cell faulty and you will be killed? This seems kind of
> extreme.
> You know this right, it is not one of those lithium myths you were
> talking about?
Stop being a dick. Yes, it's a bit hyperbolic but I am not going to risk it,
at best very badly burned. There is a small problem called thermal run-away
and you just can stop it once it reaches critical mass. There are numerous
videos around and I can assure you that others on this list are concerned
about the same issue with the Tesla.
>> BTW Do you drive a gas car? Is gasoline flammable or even worse,
>> explosive? (Oops. Sorry, that was a bit inflammatory<G>.)
This has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago. The evidence of
everyday life obviously bares this out easily. You are claiming that
Gasoline just spontaneously explodes from just sitting in the tank? That's
ridiculous. However, what we are seeing in everyday life is faulty laptop
cells spontaneously exploding:
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-laptop-explodes-in-flames-182257
.php
Dell has recalled a couple of million laptops recently due to faulty cells
that could have an internal short. Apple has done this twice and many more
companies as well. As you can see from the picture in that article, it's not
such a small fire and that is with 8 cells, now, imagine that with 7000.
These are Cobalt Oxide cells as Tesla is using. The laptops have a state of
the art BMS, didn't help as the issue was an internal cell short.
>> Hey Cliff, you were so lucky in that incident (although that cell would
>> have been toast, you caught that just in time.
> Sadly, it has happened more than once. I guess I must just be blessed
> with luck. Or maybe the cells are not prone to bursting into flames.
> This is what Kokam claims.
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_safety_02.html
Kokam still have the same problems with larger packs failing? Pity given
they cost a lot. Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles
pack life! Polymer based cells are safer than Ion but they are still metal
oxide based, so you have Lithium and an oxygen in the same little package.
Remember the fire triangle from school? All that is missing is heat. Not
hard to figure out is it? Hence when you discharged that cell after it
failed and it got warm why I stated you were lucky. Then again, having the
car filling with thick white smoke isn't exactly lucky either. I get the
distinct feeling that you haven't seen what can happen in a worse case
scenario when a cell fails.
But here's lots of evidence for you from the rc-world + videos.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
List of incidents starts at post 4. You'll see even from small RC packs
people have lost their house and also cars. These are all with the safer
Polymer packs (some being Kokams) and of course only from people that use
that one site. Some are human error, some are not.
Listen, I love the Tesla and I like where Lithium technology is going to but
I am worried that all it takes is one Tesla to have an issue and certain
vested interests will use this to demonise the EV as unsafe. In the first
run of Tesla's there is going to be 700,000 Cobalt based Li-Ion cells on the
road, what's the chance of just one being bad? I wish they would use the
phosphate based cells and I think it has to be a cost issue although one
mishap could cost them very dearly.
You might be one of the first to use Li-Po packs in an EV but I think you
made the mistake of thinking that nobody else has bothered working with
them. In RC we have been using them for several years and in fact if EV'ers
used some of that information, there would a lot less Thunder Power cells
sold to the EV crowd.
Yes, there are a lot of myths and guess work on this list; it is exactly the
same kind of information that was seen when Li-pos were first being used in
RC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I think you'll find, in real world driving, the Xebra is going to
get around
> 27 miles of range, on flat ground, when the batts are in their best
> condition. Hills are optional. Remember, you are powering a vehicle
on 6 LA
> batts. It does amazingly well for the very limited juice the car
carries.
> I'd assume, for your hill climb, you may have "killed" the pack.
(Unless you
> were saved from doing so by a smart controller... but the gauges
won't tell
> you when you are being silly in your load demands.) Yes, its
embarrassing to
> roll backwards in traffic. The alternative is for the controller to
expect
> that you know what you are doing, and go for a reversed battery cell.
>
>
Sure, they're crappy little Chinese deathtraps, but they are also a
basis for MODIFICATION! Maybe if someone on the list has $10K to sink
on one they can post pictures of the internal workings. You don't want
to go faster than 45mph, so not higher voltage but better and/or
bigger SLAs, then a high amp controller, and after that fries the
original, a better motor. Once you get some decent performance, add
some safety enhancements (I don't know what you'd do, but worth a try)
and efficiency help (aero and tire upgrades). This list is rife with
"experimenters" who like to, how should I say it, upgrade?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Because on this list, we have a bunch of smartass know-it-alls (or
> highly knowledgeable experts, depending on your point of view) that
will
> review anyone's carefully concocted marketing scheme for their
> incredible new miracle device, and tell everyone if it smells like
> fertilizer! :-)
>
No, we prefer to run those schemes by you first to give it the ol'
Nietzsche's hammer!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have reported the seller - maybe others should, too, just to make
> sure they get the hint.
>
Wow - just rechecked and these have ALL been pulled! Those eBay guys
work late!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > I have reported the seller - maybe others should, too, just to make
> > sure they get the hint.
> >
>
> Wow - just rechecked and these have ALL been pulled! Those eBay guys
> work late!
>
Sorry for excessive posting.
I just couldn't access the listings due to viewing traffic - they're
still there ;(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any pictures?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sharon G Alexander
Sent: September 22, 2006 5:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: another EV
We started EV #19 today, were building them, we really dont talk about it
much. its better to get them on the street... Wayne & Sharon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wouldn't call 4.1 million a limited series? That's for Dell alone and
doesn't count the apple packs.
Did you read the articles that started this thread? It appears obvious that
you did not. You are also flat wrong that "Most Li-Ions die when they are
accidentally over-discharged", most problems happen in the opposite case,
over charging. These issues are not the cause of my concern; my concern is
defective cells that internally short.
I give up. If people aren't prepared to do the research but instead take
manufacture's claims, with zero proof, as reality it is a sad reflection on
the state of critical thinking. Just because it matches what you want to
believe doesn't make it true.
Do the research and you'll see a lot of Lithium cell issues. If it's just
the dodgy Sony cells, what about this IBM fire?
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/gizmodo-reader-witnesses-ibm-laptop-catch
-fire-at-lax-201115.php
What about the mobile phones issues as well?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,113980-page,1/article.html
Also check the CPSC website and you'll a lot of examples involving Lithium
cells.
Naturally Tesla knows about the risk of Lithium cells, but so did all Laptop
manufactures..... How much Tesla have done to combat this, we only have
Tesla's word about. If some of the worlds leading technology companies,
using much fewer cells have failed to address this, I think it is wise to be
cautious.
I'm actually shocked at the fan boy level of this list, there are legitimate
questions here - that much really is beyond debate and I've backed up my
concerns with verifiable information. To say these concerns are alarmist is
disingenuous, the alarm of the public will obviously come from seeing the
same cells Tesla uses exploding in consumer devices.
I personally am not prepared to dismiss this problem until the Teslas have
been in everyday use for a while. I would much prefer a Tesla with the
Phosphate based cells and I have personally tested the Emoli cells to
failure with a puncture test, over charging and a total short; I did this as
I'm using them in an Electric scooter.
Time will tell what happens, maybe Tesla will switch to a safer cell
chemistry sooner rather than later.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, 23 September 2006 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
Since Tesla also knows about the Li-Ion vulnerability to
self-destruction, could they have built a protection into
their layered battery pack?
Maybe temp sensors on a real BMS?
Or made sure that they had the proper, not-contaminated
materials in their cells?
Most Li-Ions die when they are accidentally over-discharged
so a good BMS and this does not happen.
Anyway - DELL did not recall a single laptop.
Only a limited series of Sony-made batteries were recalled.
I have several DELL laptops around and even a stack
of spare batteries, from all kinds of dates.
None of the batteries I had were part of the recall.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
enthusiasts)-Long
>> Puncture a stock laptop Li-Ion and it bursts in to flames.
>Good data point. You have done this, right? So it is not a myth?
Yes, I have done this and I've done it with Lithium Polymer cells as well.
You might be one of the few using Li-Pos in an EV but there are hobbies that
have been using them much much longer. There are videos around of these
tests. I'm sure there is one on the valance site even, I think they start
off shooting the cells with a bullet, that's a little extreme, however later
they show a simple laptop cell puncture test. Kaboom.
Here ya go: http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Now a polymer:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5800338&postcount=4
>> Two reasons why I have not ordered a Tesla, first they are left hand
>> drive but I would not buy a car using stock laptop cells.
>> All it takes is one of the 7000 cells to be faulty and, you will be
>> killed.
> Really? One cell faulty and you will be killed? This seems kind of
> extreme.
> You know this right, it is not one of those lithium myths you were
> talking about?
Stop being a dick. Yes, it's a bit hyperbolic but I am not going to risk it,
at best very badly burned. There is a small problem called thermal run-away
and you just can stop it once it reaches critical mass. There are numerous
videos around and I can assure you that others on this list are concerned
about the same issue with the Tesla.
>> BTW Do you drive a gas car? Is gasoline flammable or even worse,
>> explosive? (Oops. Sorry, that was a bit inflammatory<G>.)
This has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago. The evidence of
everyday life obviously bares this out easily. You are claiming that
Gasoline just spontaneously explodes from just sitting in the tank? That's
ridiculous. However, what we are seeing in everyday life is faulty laptop
cells spontaneously exploding:
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-laptop-explodes-in-flames-182257
.php
Dell has recalled a couple of million laptops recently due to faulty cells
that could have an internal short. Apple has done this twice and many more
companies as well. As you can see from the picture in that article, it's not
such a small fire and that is with 8 cells, now, imagine that with 7000.
These are Cobalt Oxide cells as Tesla is using. The laptops have a state of
the art BMS, didn't help as the issue was an internal cell short.
>> Hey Cliff, you were so lucky in that incident (although that cell would
>> have been toast, you caught that just in time.
> Sadly, it has happened more than once. I guess I must just be blessed
> with luck. Or maybe the cells are not prone to bursting into flames.
> This is what Kokam claims.
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_safety_02.html
Kokam still have the same problems with larger packs failing? Pity given
they cost a lot. Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles
pack life! Polymer based cells are safer than Ion but they are still metal
oxide based, so you have Lithium and an oxygen in the same little package.
Remember the fire triangle from school? All that is missing is heat. Not
hard to figure out is it? Hence when you discharged that cell after it
failed and it got warm why I stated you were lucky. Then again, having the
car filling with thick white smoke isn't exactly lucky either. I get the
distinct feeling that you haven't seen what can happen in a worse case
scenario when a cell fails.
But here's lots of evidence for you from the rc-world + videos.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
List of incidents starts at post 4. You'll see even from small RC packs
people have lost their house and also cars. These are all with the safer
Polymer packs (some being Kokams) and of course only from people that use
that one site. Some are human error, some are not.
Listen, I love the Tesla and I like where Lithium technology is going to but
I am worried that all it takes is one Tesla to have an issue and certain
vested interests will use this to demonise the EV as unsafe. In the first
run of Tesla's there is going to be 700,000 Cobalt based Li-Ion cells on the
road, what's the chance of just one being bad? I wish they would use the
phosphate based cells and I think it has to be a cost issue although one
mishap could cost them very dearly.
You might be one of the first to use Li-Po packs in an EV but I think you
made the mistake of thinking that nobody else has bothered working with
them. In RC we have been using them for several years and in fact if EV'ers
used some of that information, there would a lot less Thunder Power cells
sold to the EV crowd.
Yes, there are a lot of myths and guess work on this list; it is exactly the
same kind of information that was seen when Li-pos were first being used in
RC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They have a multimillion dollar business but it's constantly under the
thread of individuals using the system fraudulently. If people lose
faith in the system the business can go away overnight. They react
aggressively to high-dollar fraud.
They do not ban people for weeks. Unlike lesser infractions such as
auction interference or failure to pay, straight fraud is basically a
lifetime ban. However, it is not hard for people to come back under a
brand new user ID and repeat the scam.
BTW, we can just as easily play whack-a-mole with him until he finds a
real job. Since people here regularly search eBay for EV auctions, his
auction will stick out immediately. When you see his scam auction
again, report it again, watch it get pulled again. Soon he will realize
it will not work because there is a body of users in the industry doing
the policing for this field. eBay likes it when this happens. Maybe
he'll move on to selling fake plasma TVs, I don't care.
Danny
Death to All Spammers wrote:
I have reported the seller - maybe others should, too, just to make
sure they get the hint.
Wow - just rechecked and these have ALL been pulled! Those eBay guys
work late!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrie, Robin wrote:
the motor i have is rated 22 kw nominal and 95 kw or so peak (from
memory.. not near my spec sheets..)
What type (model #) of the motor is it?
the question i have is, what do the two figures actually mean..?
They mean it will sustain 22kW indefinitely (without overheating)
and 95kW for so long (usually 1.5 min, sometimes 3 min rating is used)
how
long can the peak output be sustained?
It says on the label. Look for S1 or S2 ratings.
what factors affect this?
Thermal mass and adequate cooling.
would adding a more powerful water cooling system than the
reccomended one make any / much difference?
It may provide more power continuously, say 25 or 30 kW,
but there is still a limit.
if so, i could imagine adding a powerful pump, a great big actively
cooled radiator, then, even a couple of kw of peltier cooling after
that to chill the coolant.. obviously hammer the range, but would it
make a difference to the performance of the system?
Performance depends on peak power, not continuous.
Cooling helps mainly continuous ratings - you don't run peak power
long enough to cause problems - you'd be going too fast by then.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
Thanks for the corrections.
Do you have info on which type of cells Tesla is exactly using?
I heard they have a special contract with a (local) supplier,
but I could not find details about which exact type they use,
you say it is the exact same type as in laptops.
Note that about 99% of all laptop batteries are perfectly fine,
only 1% gets recalled because a few PPM of those are having
serious trouble. I understand your concern, but I think you
are over-reacting. Even if you had a battery from the recalled
series, you would likely have more chance to get in a serious
accident in your car than that your laptop could catch fire,
yet still most of us do get in their cars every day.
I know that the laptop fire is easily avoidable and the risk
of a car accident is much harder to control, but lets keep
a perspective and not dismiss the entire technology because
some supplier did a lousy job.
In car manufacturing, recalls happen all the time. Do we
abandon all cars? Or even the cars that had a recall?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
enthusiasts)-Long
I wouldn't call 4.1 million a limited series? That's for Dell alone and
doesn't count the apple packs.
Did you read the articles that started this thread? It appears obvious that
you did not. You are also flat wrong that "Most Li-Ions die when they are
accidentally over-discharged", most problems happen in the opposite case,
over charging. These issues are not the cause of my concern; my concern is
defective cells that internally short.
I give up. If people aren't prepared to do the research but instead take
manufacture's claims, with zero proof, as reality it is a sad reflection on
the state of critical thinking. Just because it matches what you want to
believe doesn't make it true.
Do the research and you'll see a lot of Lithium cell issues. If it's just
the dodgy Sony cells, what about this IBM fire?
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/gizmodo-reader-witnesses-ibm-laptop-catch
-fire-at-lax-201115.php
What about the mobile phones issues as well?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,113980-page,1/article.html
Also check the CPSC website and you'll a lot of examples involving Lithium
cells.
Naturally Tesla knows about the risk of Lithium cells, but so did all Laptop
manufactures..... How much Tesla have done to combat this, we only have
Tesla's word about. If some of the worlds leading technology companies,
using much fewer cells have failed to address this, I think it is wise to be
cautious.
I'm actually shocked at the fan boy level of this list, there are legitimate
questions here - that much really is beyond debate and I've backed up my
concerns with verifiable information. To say these concerns are alarmist is
disingenuous, the alarm of the public will obviously come from seeing the
same cells Tesla uses exploding in consumer devices.
I personally am not prepared to dismiss this problem until the Teslas have
been in everyday use for a while. I would much prefer a Tesla with the
Phosphate based cells and I have personally tested the Emoli cells to
failure with a puncture test, over charging and a total short; I did this as
I'm using them in an Electric scooter.
Time will tell what happens, maybe Tesla will switch to a safer cell
chemistry sooner rather than later.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, 23 September 2006 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
Since Tesla also knows about the Li-Ion vulnerability to
self-destruction, could they have built a protection into
their layered battery pack?
Maybe temp sensors on a real BMS?
Or made sure that they had the proper, not-contaminated
materials in their cells?
Most Li-Ions die when they are accidentally over-discharged
so a good BMS and this does not happen.
Anyway - DELL did not recall a single laptop.
Only a limited series of Sony-made batteries were recalled.
I have several DELL laptops around and even a stack
of spare batteries, from all kinds of dates.
None of the batteries I had were part of the recall.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
enthusiasts)-Long
>> Puncture a stock laptop Li-Ion and it bursts in to flames.
>Good data point. You have done this, right? So it is not a myth?
Yes, I have done this and I've done it with Lithium Polymer cells as well.
You might be one of the few using Li-Pos in an EV but there are hobbies that
have been using them much much longer. There are videos around of these
tests. I'm sure there is one on the valance site even, I think they start
off shooting the cells with a bullet, that's a little extreme, however later
they show a simple laptop cell puncture test. Kaboom.
Here ya go: http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Now a polymer:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5800338&postcount=4
>> Two reasons why I have not ordered a Tesla, first they are left hand
>> drive but I would not buy a car using stock laptop cells.
>> All it takes is one of the 7000 cells to be faulty and, you will be
>> killed.
> Really? One cell faulty and you will be killed? This seems kind of
> extreme.
> You know this right, it is not one of those lithium myths you were
> talking about?
Stop being a dick. Yes, it's a bit hyperbolic but I am not going to risk it,
at best very badly burned. There is a small problem called thermal run-away
and you just can stop it once it reaches critical mass. There are numerous
videos around and I can assure you that others on this list are concerned
about the same issue with the Tesla.
>> BTW Do you drive a gas car? Is gasoline flammable or even worse,
>> explosive? (Oops. Sorry, that was a bit inflammatory<G>.)
This has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago. The evidence of
everyday life obviously bares this out easily. You are claiming that
Gasoline just spontaneously explodes from just sitting in the tank? That's
ridiculous. However, what we are seeing in everyday life is faulty laptop
cells spontaneously exploding:
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-laptop-explodes-in-flames-182257
.php
Dell has recalled a couple of million laptops recently due to faulty cells
that could have an internal short. Apple has done this twice and many more
companies as well. As you can see from the picture in that article, it's not
such a small fire and that is with 8 cells, now, imagine that with 7000.
These are Cobalt Oxide cells as Tesla is using. The laptops have a state of
the art BMS, didn't help as the issue was an internal cell short.
>> Hey Cliff, you were so lucky in that incident (although that cell would
>> have been toast, you caught that just in time.
> Sadly, it has happened more than once. I guess I must just be blessed
> with luck. Or maybe the cells are not prone to bursting into flames.
> This is what Kokam claims.
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_safety_02.html
Kokam still have the same problems with larger packs failing? Pity given
they cost a lot. Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles
pack life! Polymer based cells are safer than Ion but they are still metal
oxide based, so you have Lithium and an oxygen in the same little package.
Remember the fire triangle from school? All that is missing is heat. Not
hard to figure out is it? Hence when you discharged that cell after it
failed and it got warm why I stated you were lucky. Then again, having the
car filling with thick white smoke isn't exactly lucky either. I get the
distinct feeling that you haven't seen what can happen in a worse case
scenario when a cell fails.
But here's lots of evidence for you from the rc-world + videos.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
List of incidents starts at post 4. You'll see even from small RC packs
people have lost their house and also cars. These are all with the safer
Polymer packs (some being Kokams) and of course only from people that use
that one site. Some are human error, some are not.
Listen, I love the Tesla and I like where Lithium technology is going to but
I am worried that all it takes is one Tesla to have an issue and certain
vested interests will use this to demonise the EV as unsafe. In the first
run of Tesla's there is going to be 700,000 Cobalt based Li-Ion cells on the
road, what's the chance of just one being bad? I wish they would use the
phosphate based cells and I think it has to be a cost issue although one
mishap could cost them very dearly.
You might be one of the first to use Li-Po packs in an EV but I think you
made the mistake of thinking that nobody else has bothered working with
them. In RC we have been using them for several years and in fact if EV'ers
used some of that information, there would a lot less Thunder Power cells
sold to the EV crowd.
Yes, there are a lot of myths and guess work on this list; it is exactly the
same kind of information that was seen when Li-pos were first being used in
RC.
--- End Message ---
