EV Digest 5906
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Xebra test drive from the Arcane list.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Dateline EV Episode direct download
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Transaxle
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Fuse bought off ebay
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Should I use an intermittent contactor or a continous for the
starter in an EV?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Nissan to produce plug-in hybrid ?
by John Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Transaxle
by ZillaVIlla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Transaxle TWO Hundred MPH!?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Transaxle
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Transaxle
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Chelsea Sexton at Maryland Opening of WKTEC?
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Transaxle
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: another EV
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OT Re: New GM electric car
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Tesla Motors Review on BBC Radio
by "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: New GM electric car
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sure makes it sound like thermal limiting that stopped you on that hill.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 1a. Re: none on the floor and only 3 on the road
> Posted by: "Stephen G Cooper" [EMAIL PROTECTED] scrabbleist
> Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:31 am (PDT)
>
> Okay, as of yesterday I took out another Xebra. This time it had what
> appeared to be a 72% charge...............found out what happens
when you
> drive in that condition the hard way.!
>
> Drove nicely around Santa Cruz and if one gets in a condition of
traffic to
> keep their foot to the floor it got up to 42mph for me before I had
to slow
> for traffic. Actually took the car up Graham Hill Road from Ocean
St. This
> is a long hard hill for underpowered cars or skitterish drivers.
Either one
> is capable of crawling to the top, thus holding up everyone else who
prefer
> to do the speed limit or a wee bit more.
>
> Doing allmost 40 at the bottom we soon slowed to about 20 and finally I
> pulled over 3/4 of the way up to the top.
>
> But when I turned around it cruised DOWN HILL at an amazing 55 mph!
>
> It did not feel like it was shaking to bits and there are a few un-fixed
> holes on that stretch still since the county patched it this summer!
>
> Ah, I was happy to see that it fully would exceed slightly the 40mph
flat
> land speed and envisioned myself on the NON-freeway parts of Highway 17
> whizzing downhill like a skiier!
>
> Hold on, remember that 72% charge statement?
>
> Well, on returning to the dealer I was driving up Water Street and
> approaching the light at Branciforte atop the hill. Of course I was
the 5
> car from the light when it turned RED. Undaunted I stopped and held
my foot
> on the brake awaiting a GREEn light. When the light turned green, I
removed
> my right foot from the brake pedal and started pushing down the
> accelerator..................
>
> nothing of a forward nature took place and backward I went towards
the 6th
> car in line.........foot back on foot brake while I pulled up the
emergency
> which is right next to the drivers seat on his left.
>
> Next I tried accelerating first, then easing off on the
> handbrake............stilled rolled perilously backward! As much as I
> tried, nothing but backward momentum was achieved. The salesman's
face was
> ashen. He called for help and 30 minutes later some guys from the
> dealership a whole 3 blocks away arrived to push me (steering) up
hill to
> the top and then right into a parking lot.
>
> While in the lot, on nice level ground, the car performed perfectly
and we
> were able to drive back for a full recharge!
>
> The car costs $10,000 and has a range of 40 miles. I don't really think
> that is cheap for a fun car, but would still like to have one. But I
would
> carry a small generator and gas around with me so I could make it to and
> back from Arcane Events.
>
> Stephen, and thanks to Dick Tuttle for his thoughtful insights as to the
> risks involved in 3 wheeled driving.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My memory is a little fuzzy but I think Teslsa showed us at the SVEAA
meeting that the cells were crush tested and puncture tested in the
presentation we were given, by their own team. These guys spent a huge
portion of their engineering time on the cells and the pack. The
effort from these guys is supreme not shade tree in the least. I'll
ask today to see who remembers what. Plus we video taped the
presentation and a few guys took pics of every slide.
The last time I saw a Lion recall was in the mid 90's. Sony had a
problem with their charging circuit and burned a Powerbook to the
ground. When one of our engineers walked past us with it it smelled in
a big way. Even though it was the very early very volatile cells, it
eneded up not mattering because once the cells start on fire, you are
just along for the ride. So I don't remember any more recalls since
then. Although my portable hardware exposure was limited after I left
Apple. It's much cheaper to be safe financially and just offer a recall.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't call 4.1 million a limited series? That's for Dell alone and
> doesn't count the apple packs.
>
> Did you read the articles that started this thread? It appears
obvious that
> you did not. You are also flat wrong that "Most Li-Ions die when
they are
> accidentally over-discharged", most problems happen in the opposite
case,
> over charging. These issues are not the cause of my concern; my
concern is
> defective cells that internally short.
>
> I give up. If people aren't prepared to do the research but instead take
> manufacture's claims, with zero proof, as reality it is a sad
reflection on
> the state of critical thinking. Just because it matches what you want to
> believe doesn't make it true.
>
> Do the research and you'll see a lot of Lithium cell issues. If it's
just
> the dodgy Sony cells, what about this IBM fire?
>
>
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/gizmodo-reader-witnesses-ibm-laptop-catch
> -fire-at-lax-201115.php
>
> What about the mobile phones issues as well?
>
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,113980-page,1/article.html
>
> Also check the CPSC website and you'll a lot of examples involving
Lithium
> cells.
>
> Naturally Tesla knows about the risk of Lithium cells, but so did
all Laptop
> manufactures..... How much Tesla have done to combat this, we only have
> Tesla's word about. If some of the worlds leading technology companies,
> using much fewer cells have failed to address this, I think it is
wise to be
> cautious.
>
> I'm actually shocked at the fan boy level of this list, there are
legitimate
> questions here - that much really is beyond debate and I've backed up my
> concerns with verifiable information. To say these concerns are
alarmist is
> disingenuous, the alarm of the public will obviously come from
seeing the
> same cells Tesla uses exploding in consumer devices.
>
> I personally am not prepared to dismiss this problem until the
Teslas have
> been in everyday use for a while. I would much prefer a Tesla with the
> Phosphate based cells and I have personally tested the Emoli cells to
> failure with a puncture test, over charging and a total short; I did
this as
> I'm using them in an Electric scooter.
>
> Time will tell what happens, maybe Tesla will switch to a safer cell
> chemistry sooner rather than later.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Saturday, 23 September 2006 3:24 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
enthusiasts)-Long
>
> Since Tesla also knows about the Li-Ion vulnerability to
> self-destruction, could they have built a protection into
> their layered battery pack?
> Maybe temp sensors on a real BMS?
> Or made sure that they had the proper, not-contaminated
> materials in their cells?
> Most Li-Ions die when they are accidentally over-discharged
> so a good BMS and this does not happen.
>
> Anyway - DELL did not recall a single laptop.
> Only a limited series of Sony-made batteries were recalled.
> I have several DELL laptops around and even a stack
> of spare batteries, from all kinds of dates.
> None of the batteries I had were part of the recall.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of David Ankers
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:09 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
> enthusiasts)-Long
>
>
>
> >> Puncture a stock laptop Li-Ion and it bursts in to flames.
>
> >Good data point. You have done this, right? So it is not a myth?
>
> Yes, I have done this and I've done it with Lithium Polymer cells as
well.
> You might be one of the few using Li-Pos in an EV but there are
hobbies that
> have been using them much much longer. There are videos around of these
> tests. I'm sure there is one on the valance site even, I think they
start
> off shooting the cells with a bullet, that's a little extreme,
however later
> they show a simple laptop cell puncture test. Kaboom.
>
> Here ya go: http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
>
> Now a polymer:
> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5800338&postcount=4
>
>
> >> Two reasons why I have not ordered a Tesla, first they are left hand
> >> drive but I would not buy a car using stock laptop cells.
> >> All it takes is one of the 7000 cells to be faulty and, you will be
> >> killed.
>
> > Really? One cell faulty and you will be killed? This seems kind of
> > extreme.
> > You know this right, it is not one of those lithium myths you were
> > talking about?
>
> Stop being a dick. Yes, it's a bit hyperbolic but I am not going to
risk it,
> at best very badly burned. There is a small problem called thermal
run-away
> and you just can stop it once it reaches critical mass. There are
numerous
> videos around and I can assure you that others on this list are
concerned
> about the same issue with the Tesla.
>
> >> BTW Do you drive a gas car? Is gasoline flammable or even worse,
> >> explosive? (Oops. Sorry, that was a bit inflammatory<G>.)
>
> This has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago. The
evidence of
> everyday life obviously bares this out easily. You are claiming that
> Gasoline just spontaneously explodes from just sitting in the tank?
That's
> ridiculous. However, what we are seeing in everyday life is faulty
laptop
> cells spontaneously exploding:
>
>
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-laptop-explodes-in-flames-182257
> .php
>
> Dell has recalled a couple of million laptops recently due to faulty
cells
> that could have an internal short. Apple has done this twice and
many more
> companies as well. As you can see from the picture in that article,
it's not
> such a small fire and that is with 8 cells, now, imagine that with 7000.
> These are Cobalt Oxide cells as Tesla is using. The laptops have a
state of
> the art BMS, didn't help as the issue was an internal cell short.
>
> >> Hey Cliff, you were so lucky in that incident (although that cell
would
> >> have been toast, you caught that just in time.
>
> > Sadly, it has happened more than once. I guess I must just be blessed
> > with luck. Or maybe the cells are not prone to bursting into flames.
> > This is what Kokam claims.
> > http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_safety_02.html
>
> Kokam still have the same problems with larger packs failing? Pity given
> they cost a lot. Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500
cycles
> pack life! Polymer based cells are safer than Ion but they are still
metal
> oxide based, so you have Lithium and an oxygen in the same little
package.
> Remember the fire triangle from school? All that is missing is heat. Not
> hard to figure out is it? Hence when you discharged that cell after it
> failed and it got warm why I stated you were lucky. Then again,
having the
> car filling with thick white smoke isn't exactly lucky either. I get the
> distinct feeling that you haven't seen what can happen in a worse case
> scenario when a cell fails.
>
> But here's lots of evidence for you from the rc-world + videos.
>
> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
>
> List of incidents starts at post 4. You'll see even from small RC packs
> people have lost their house and also cars. These are all with the safer
> Polymer packs (some being Kokams) and of course only from people
that use
> that one site. Some are human error, some are not.
>
> Listen, I love the Tesla and I like where Lithium technology is
going to but
> I am worried that all it takes is one Tesla to have an issue and certain
> vested interests will use this to demonise the EV as unsafe. In the
first
> run of Tesla's there is going to be 700,000 Cobalt based Li-Ion
cells on the
> road, what's the chance of just one being bad? I wish they would use the
> phosphate based cells and I think it has to be a cost issue although one
> mishap could cost them very dearly.
>
> You might be one of the first to use Li-Po packs in an EV but I
think you
> made the mistake of thinking that nobody else has bothered working with
> them. In RC we have been using them for several years and in fact if
EV'ers
> used some of that information, there would a lot less Thunder Power
cells
> sold to the EV crowd.
>
> Yes, there are a lot of myths and guess work on this list; it is
exactly the
> same kind of information that was seen when Li-pos were first being
used in
> RC.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hoi Cor,
I know they are using Metal Oxide based cells in which the problem is
inherent. I don't say that they are laptop cells, Tesla have said that
numerous times them selves.
I agree 99% of laptop cells are fine; it's the 1% that could still ruin your
day that worries me.
I love your analogy, yes; you would likely have more chance to get in a
serious accident in your car than that your laptop could catch fire but,
what if you car had 7000 laptop batteries in it? ;-)
I still agree with the premise of the original article and my personal
opinion is that Cobalt Oxide cells present a risk, even if it might be
small. Sorry but your comparison with car accidents doesn't make sense to
me, there is a known risk with driving and people make a judgement call on
that. This is why car accidents are not really news but laptop fires, which
cause far less injuries, are. People tend to be much more concerned with
things they feel they cannot control. For example, 43,000 people died last
year from auto accidents in the US, yet 3000 died in the last 5 years from
terrorism, its obvious which has people the most concerned.
Tot straks,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, 23 September 2006 6:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
Hi David,
Thanks for the corrections.
Do you have info on which type of cells Tesla is exactly using?
I heard they have a special contract with a (local) supplier,
but I could not find details about which exact type they use,
you say it is the exact same type as in laptops.
Note that about 99% of all laptop batteries are perfectly fine,
only 1% gets recalled because a few PPM of those are having
serious trouble. I understand your concern, but I think you
are over-reacting. Even if you had a battery from the recalled
series, you would likely have more chance to get in a serious
accident in your car than that your laptop could catch fire,
yet still most of us do get in their cars every day.
I know that the laptop fire is easily avoidable and the risk
of a car accident is much harder to control, but lets keep
a perspective and not dismiss the entire technology because
some supplier did a lousy job.
In car manufacturing, recalls happen all the time. Do we
abandon all cars? Or even the cars that had a recall?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
enthusiasts)-Long
I wouldn't call 4.1 million a limited series? That's for Dell alone and
doesn't count the apple packs.
Did you read the articles that started this thread? It appears obvious that
you did not. You are also flat wrong that "Most Li-Ions die when they are
accidentally over-discharged", most problems happen in the opposite case,
over charging. These issues are not the cause of my concern; my concern is
defective cells that internally short.
I give up. If people aren't prepared to do the research but instead take
manufacture's claims, with zero proof, as reality it is a sad reflection on
the state of critical thinking. Just because it matches what you want to
believe doesn't make it true.
Do the research and you'll see a lot of Lithium cell issues. If it's just
the dodgy Sony cells, what about this IBM fire?
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/gizmodo-reader-witnesses-ibm-laptop-catch
-fire-at-lax-201115.php
What about the mobile phones issues as well?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,113980-page,1/article.html
Also check the CPSC website and you'll a lot of examples involving Lithium
cells.
Naturally Tesla knows about the risk of Lithium cells, but so did all Laptop
manufactures..... How much Tesla have done to combat this, we only have
Tesla's word about. If some of the worlds leading technology companies,
using much fewer cells have failed to address this, I think it is wise to be
cautious.
I'm actually shocked at the fan boy level of this list, there are legitimate
questions here - that much really is beyond debate and I've backed up my
concerns with verifiable information. To say these concerns are alarmist is
disingenuous, the alarm of the public will obviously come from seeing the
same cells Tesla uses exploding in consumer devices.
I personally am not prepared to dismiss this problem until the Teslas have
been in everyday use for a while. I would much prefer a Tesla with the
Phosphate based cells and I have personally tested the Emoli cells to
failure with a puncture test, over charging and a total short; I did this as
I'm using them in an Electric scooter.
Time will tell what happens, maybe Tesla will switch to a safer cell
chemistry sooner rather than later.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, 23 September 2006 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
Since Tesla also knows about the Li-Ion vulnerability to
self-destruction, could they have built a protection into
their layered battery pack?
Maybe temp sensors on a real BMS?
Or made sure that they had the proper, not-contaminated
materials in their cells?
Most Li-Ions die when they are accidentally over-discharged
so a good BMS and this does not happen.
Anyway - DELL did not recall a single laptop.
Only a limited series of Sony-made batteries were recalled.
I have several DELL laptops around and even a stack
of spare batteries, from all kinds of dates.
None of the batteries I had were part of the recall.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
enthusiasts)-Long
>> Puncture a stock laptop Li-Ion and it bursts in to flames.
>Good data point. You have done this, right? So it is not a myth?
Yes, I have done this and I've done it with Lithium Polymer cells as well.
You might be one of the few using Li-Pos in an EV but there are hobbies that
have been using them much much longer. There are videos around of these
tests. I'm sure there is one on the valance site even, I think they start
off shooting the cells with a bullet, that's a little extreme, however later
they show a simple laptop cell puncture test. Kaboom.
Here ya go: http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Now a polymer:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5800338&postcount=4
>> Two reasons why I have not ordered a Tesla, first they are left hand
>> drive but I would not buy a car using stock laptop cells.
>> All it takes is one of the 7000 cells to be faulty and, you will be
>> killed.
> Really? One cell faulty and you will be killed? This seems kind of
> extreme.
> You know this right, it is not one of those lithium myths you were
> talking about?
Stop being a dick. Yes, it's a bit hyperbolic but I am not going to risk it,
at best very badly burned. There is a small problem called thermal run-away
and you just can stop it once it reaches critical mass. There are numerous
videos around and I can assure you that others on this list are concerned
about the same issue with the Tesla.
>> BTW Do you drive a gas car? Is gasoline flammable or even worse,
>> explosive? (Oops. Sorry, that was a bit inflammatory<G>.)
This has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago. The evidence of
everyday life obviously bares this out easily. You are claiming that
Gasoline just spontaneously explodes from just sitting in the tank? That's
ridiculous. However, what we are seeing in everyday life is faulty laptop
cells spontaneously exploding:
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-laptop-explodes-in-flames-182257
.php
Dell has recalled a couple of million laptops recently due to faulty cells
that could have an internal short. Apple has done this twice and many more
companies as well. As you can see from the picture in that article, it's not
such a small fire and that is with 8 cells, now, imagine that with 7000.
These are Cobalt Oxide cells as Tesla is using. The laptops have a state of
the art BMS, didn't help as the issue was an internal cell short.
>> Hey Cliff, you were so lucky in that incident (although that cell would
>> have been toast, you caught that just in time.
> Sadly, it has happened more than once. I guess I must just be blessed
> with luck. Or maybe the cells are not prone to bursting into flames.
> This is what Kokam claims.
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_safety_02.html
Kokam still have the same problems with larger packs failing? Pity given
they cost a lot. Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles
pack life! Polymer based cells are safer than Ion but they are still metal
oxide based, so you have Lithium and an oxygen in the same little package.
Remember the fire triangle from school? All that is missing is heat. Not
hard to figure out is it? Hence when you discharged that cell after it
failed and it got warm why I stated you were lucky. Then again, having the
car filling with thick white smoke isn't exactly lucky either. I get the
distinct feeling that you haven't seen what can happen in a worse case
scenario when a cell fails.
But here's lots of evidence for you from the rc-world + videos.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
List of incidents starts at post 4. You'll see even from small RC packs
people have lost their house and also cars. These are all with the safer
Polymer packs (some being Kokams) and of course only from people that use
that one site. Some are human error, some are not.
Listen, I love the Tesla and I like where Lithium technology is going to but
I am worried that all it takes is one Tesla to have an issue and certain
vested interests will use this to demonise the EV as unsafe. In the first
run of Tesla's there is going to be 700,000 Cobalt based Li-Ion cells on the
road, what's the chance of just one being bad? I wish they would use the
phosphate based cells and I think it has to be a cost issue although one
mishap could cost them very dearly.
You might be one of the first to use Li-Po packs in an EV but I think you
made the mistake of thinking that nobody else has bothered working with
them. In RC we have been using them for several years and in fact if EV'ers
used some of that information, there would a lot less Thunder Power cells
sold to the EV crowd.
Yes, there are a lot of myths and guess work on this list; it is exactly the
same kind of information that was seen when Li-pos were first being used in
RC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those who've been having trouble with the Dateline EV episode on my
site:
I've transcoded it into MPEG. It should be playable with just about
anything. Of course, it's a lot bigger than the MP4.
There are two new versions, one at normal size and one at half-size.
Choose wisely at:
http://judebert.com/wasted_youth/archives/96-Dateline-Australia-Covers-EVs.html
Jude Anthony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Given that I want to build a high performance mid engine EV that will go
0-60 in about 5 second with a top end of nearly 200 mph and you have $4,000
to spend on a transaxle, what brand of transaxle would you buy, and why?
Curtis Muhlestein
Riverton Utah
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James is right, they might only be good for a scooter. I found my fuses on eBay
for a good price.
Look for Gould-Shawmut fuses in the Business & Industrial category, for
example. There are some
there right now, auction 300028780919, but they might be a little beefier than
you need. Also make
sure you get the right speed fuse for your need. I'm sure there are other
brands to consider too.
Dave Cover
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yes, for any EV whose traction pack is no more than 36V. You may be OK at
> 48V, but that fuse is designed for 12V systems, and may explode, create a
> plasma arc or other undesireable effects if used at higher voltage.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adan Vielma wrote:
For the starter contactor, basically the one that when you turn the
key it is activated so that the battery pack power is now connected
to the motor controller, would you use an intermittent coil-type
contactor or a continuous coil-type one?
You need to use one with a continuous duty coil. This contactor will
need to be on as long as you are driving.
You would use an intermittent duty coil when it will only be on for a
few minutes (at most) at a time. These coils are a bit cheaper and
easier to build.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
>From http://www.physorg.com/news78203380.html
**************************************
Nissan to end tie-up in hybrid with Toyota: report
Rival Japanese carmakers Nissan Motor Co. and Toyota Motor Corp will end
their tie-up in sharing hybrid car-related technology as Nissan plans to
release its own hybrid models, a report said Saturday.
Nissan plans to release its independently produced low-emission and
fuel-efficient models in 2010, the Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper reported,
citing unnamed sources.
Nissan and Toyota agreed in 2002 to work together on hybrid vehicle
developments in a bid to cut costs and benefit from each others'
know-how.
But both Nissan and Toyota came to think that the necessity of the
tie-up has reduced with the rapid growth of markets for
environmentally-friendly hybrid vehicles, helped by rising fuel costs
reflecting high oil prices, it said.
Nissan's new compact car models will be equipped with a lithium-ion
battery system and include a plug-in hybrid vehicle that can be
recharged at home, it said.
Nissan's officials were not immediately available for a comment.
© 2006 AFP
*****************************************
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are you building a car from scratch?
On 9/23/06, Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Given that I want to build a high performance mid engine EV that will go
0-60 in about 5 second with a top end of nearly 200 mph and you have
$4,000
to spend on a transaxle, what brand of transaxle would you buy, and why?
Curtis Muhlestein
Riverton Utah
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: Transaxle
> Given that I want to build a high performance mid engine EV that will go
> 0-60 in about 5 second with a top end of nearly 200 mph and you have
$4,000
> to spend on a transaxle, what brand of transaxle would you buy, and why?
> Hi Curt:
> You pull THAT off You're GOOD!You arent asking for much!<g>! Don't wanna
rain on your parade, but you are asking a bit for a first time EV!How DEEP
are your pockets? And WHY do you wanna go 200 mph, anyhow? All kidding aside
there must be gas racing shops that might have something you could use,
coupled to a 13 inch Warp Racing motor.How long would you be happy to get to
200 mph, anyhow? The TGV train in France goes 200plus, too, but he takes
awile and lottsa streight trak to do it.Or ya gunna give Wayland a run for
his money?
Racing's fun, the more the merrier!
Seeya at the Trak?
Bob
>" We Breaks things so you don't have to!"Plasma Boy Racing sez THAT!
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Hello Curtis,
I don't where you can get a racing type of transaxle for $4000.00. My
Munci transaxle that was in my Cam Am Group 7 race car back in 1966 cost
over $2000.00 not including the axle tubes and suspension rods that
supported the transmission.
Today I would use the Porsche 5 speed transaxle that can be mated up to any
6, V-6 to V-12 engines that have over 800 hp and pull over 600 ft-lbs of
torque, which will go over 10,000 Rpm.
The new Ford GT-40 transaxle is another one you can use. But forget about
finding a use one out of the original GT-40's. You have the buy the whole
car to get it for about $3,000,000.00 + from a guy who collected them all in
Florida.
If you find any savage or use transaxles, you will need to build it up to
racing specifications which the modifications are going to be way over
$4000.00.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:08 AM
Subject: Transaxle
> Given that I want to build a high performance mid engine EV that will go
> 0-60 in about 5 second with a top end of nearly 200 mph and you have
> $4,000
> to spend on a transaxle, what brand of transaxle would you buy, and why?
>
>
>
> Curtis Muhlestein
>
> Riverton Utah
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Yes!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ZillaVIlla
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Transaxle
are you building a car from scratch?
On 9/23/06, Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Given that I want to build a high performance mid engine EV that will go
> 0-60 in about 5 second with a top end of nearly 200 mph and you have
> $4,000
> to spend on a transaxle, what brand of transaxle would you buy, and why?
>
>
>
> Curtis Muhlestein
>
> Riverton Utah
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
Chelsea was the hit of the show yesterday at the playing of "WKTEC?"
at AMC Loews Theater in Beltsville Maryland.
First, a little bit of background.
The Integrity Research Institute is holding their Second Conference
on Future Energy this weekend at the Sheraton in Beltsville. They
apparently rented the movie to be played at the theater which is
across the parking lot from the Sheraton and paid for Chelsea to be
the guest speaker following the movie. Tom Valone, who is heading the
conference also got in touch with EVA/DC to show some EVs and gave us
all free tickets to see the movie.
I picked up Chelsea at the airport at around 5:15 and we drove to the
Sheraton. I had my car already displayed in front of the theater, and
EVA/DCer Jonathan Shapiro stayed with the car to answer questions and
hand out Marc Gellers great brochures.
Since my EV was on display, my parents loaned me their new Honda
Civic Hybrid as the "limo" to pick up Chelsea. Although its only 15
miles to the airport from my house it took over an hour to get there
because of the traffic and construction and wouldn't you know
Chelsea's plane arrived a half hour early! But she was cool and we
were still pretty much on schedule.
On the way to the Sheraton she told me alot of what she had been
doing since she left GM which has been 5 years now.
Once we arrived, Chelsea checked in to the hotel and I went to check
the dinner reservations for 20 EVA/DCers at the Powder Mill Cafe in
the Sheraton and met up with Tom Valone to tell him our Celebrity was
here. Also met some of the conference goers.
Wallace Rumbarger, an EVA/DCer arrived with his electric E-Max
scooter which he drove 11 miles to the event.
We had dinner at 6:00 pm and hung around till 7:30 pm and headed over
to the movie theater.
Bryan Murtha had set up his Ford Ranger next to my Ford Escort in
front of the theater and a couple reporters from the local papers
were there asking questions.
Everything was going great until . . .
As the reporters were asking me questions about the EV, several of
the EVA/DCers needed their movie tickets, which I realized at that
moment I left the tickets at home. At the same time my wife, kids
and parents were standing there waiting for their tickets too. And my
son had locked himself in my EV and wouldn't come out unless I took
him to McDonalds. My wife was already mad because I postponed our
Beach vacation by a day because of the event and she was just
standing there staring at me with that look. I was trapped. So I told
the reporters I needed to get back to them after I got the ticket
issue straightened out. Although I was freaking out, Jackie Valone,
Tom's wife, mentioned they had plenty of free tickets for everyone so
it was just a matter of relaying that message to Chris who was
handling the tickets for the conference goers.
But everything worked out and everyone got into the theater in plenty
of time.
The theater was absolutely packed. The only seats available were the
first couple whiplash rows at the front of the theater.
After the movie, I went outside to answer more questions for the
reporters by the EVs and sold some "WKTEC?" T-shirts. Then we headed
back to Chesapeake room at the Sheraton where Chelsea has started
answering questions. There was about 150 to 200 folks there. I have
to tell Chelsea is brilliant and very intelligent. She had everyone's
attention.
The EV story is a good example for the conference goers of
"suppressed and interruptive technology"
Gotta run.
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster/Special Events Chairman
http://www.evadc.org
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--- Begin Message ---
Here are many options for mid engine transaxle options. It all comes down to
how much torque you want to pump through it. We were looking for a transaxle
that could handle 300-450ft-lbs of torque. Some transaxles will have to be
flipped to run in the mid engine position. This may require some
modifications to the lubrication system. See the scratch built car forums
(Lamborghini, etc.) for much more info on building mid-engine cars. I have
an Audi 016N transaxle, clutch, flywheel and drive shafts for sale if you
desire. All ready for mid engine mounting without any mods required.
Hewland
www.hewland.co.uk
Too expensive (> $20,000)
Non synchromesh
Straight cut
Quaife
www.quaife.co.uk
Too expensive ($18,000)
ZF
www.zf.com
Too expensive
Mendeola
www.mendeolatransaxles.com
Too expensive ($7,000)
Porsche 915
. Shift links req'd
. ring gear must be flipped (easy)
. Must be rebuilt
. $4800 all done
. May not handle torque
. 120 lbs
Porsche 930
. can handle torque
. Shift links req'd
. ring gear must be flipped (difficult)
. Must be rebuilt
. $6300 all done
. 120 pounds
Porsche G50
. can handle torque
. Shift links req'd
. heavy
. overkill
. difficult to find
. must be inverted
. $5500 all done
Audi 01E
. does not require flip anything
. has side shift
. light duty
. difficult to find
. less than ideal ratios
Audi 016
. does not require flipping the ring gear
. has side shift
. light duty will require beefed up R&P
. $3000 all done
. Less than ideal ratios
BMW trans & diff
. not many mods reqd
. Offsets motor by 60cm more than transaxle
. Shift links reqd
. 140 lbs
. $1200 not rebuilt
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Curtis Muhlestein
Sent: September 23, 2006 7:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Transaxle
Given that I want to build a high performance mid engine EV that will go
0-60 in about 5 second with a top end of nearly 200 mph and you have $4,000
to spend on a transaxle, what brand of transaxle would you buy, and why?
Curtis Muhlestein
Riverton Utah
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon G Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 8:19 PM
Subject: another EV
> We started EV #19 today, were building them, we really dont talk about it
much. its better to get them on the street... Wayne & Sharon
>
> Good on You guyz! As they say in Oz.You guys are just hauling off and
DOING something! Best of luck, and look forward to you're hundridth one on
these pages, too. So THAT's why you arent in the Fool Sells debate<g>!
Bob, working on two in the driveway!
>
>
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On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:38, Cor van de Water wrote:
John,
Many people on this list are off beat in one way or another.
Please do not make it a personal matter if you receive some
critical notes, supported with data in an open discussion
and try to take attacks in a factual manner, not aimed at
the person.
Only personal attacks are taken personally.
You seem to have missed the fact that instead of factual arguments, I
have gotten name calling and side order of conspiracy theory.
Opinions can differ, and that's fine. Opinions are not fact. That
scientist A holds an opinion is a fact, but it doesn't make scientist
a's opinion fact.
It is your opinion that h2 can never be commerically viable, and others
may agree with you, in fact every single person on this list except me
may be in total agreement with it - still makes it an opinion.
Every major automaker holds a different one - and are putting hundreds
of millions of dollars up on that bet. Sure, some of that is taxpayer
subsidized. But the vast majority is private money.
And here is where all the (self)righteous anger is so ironic - you've
won the argument. All of the carmakers agree with you - buring fossil
fuels is not the future for automobiles. The future belongs to electric
vehicles, by the end of the next decade. They have a different way of
charging the vehicle, but its electric nonetheless.
Finally, I will leave you with this. One person with the opinion that
h2 fuel cell vehicles are the future is Vice President Gore. That's an
opinion, and he may well be wrong. But my point is that I hardly think
the former VP could be considered a shill for the oil companies or the
automakers. It is possible for someone to examine the issue rationally
and arrive at an opinion without being a part of the vast conspiracy.
And anyone who will not accept that is closed minded.
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For those that are intersted, there is a download link on the right side of
the page. The file is 11.6 megs but transfers fairly quickly. It is useful
for those that are on the go.
Thanks for pointing this out. I used to listen to lots of talk radio, but my
lifestyle changed so I can't do it much anymore. I miss it.
Dave O.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/724
On 9/22/06, Steven Lough < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is an E X C E L E N T 1/2 hour LONG interview...
Better than PBS ! Three Chears for the BBC
Excelent listening... Well rounded... Posative....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/inbusiness/inbusiness.shtml
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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I think the cost and complexity problems of fuel cells can be overcome.
History shows that If Tokyo sets their sights on doing it, it will be done.
There is a good chance that you could also plug Beijing in place of Tokyo in
that sentence, but that hasn't nearly as much successful history behind it,
so time will tell.
It may even be possible to overcome fuel cells' specific power, which I
understand is pretty low.
Other issues, such as startup time, lifespan, the expensive and scarce
materials that are required - these are also not in surmountable (provided
enough money gets thrown at them).
The insurmountable problems I see with fuel cells lie in the fuel, not in
the cells.
Remember that hydrogen is not a fuel, it's an energy carrier. The energy
has to come from some other source.
If it's from a fossil fuel, the reforming process releases CO2 and other
impurities. Of course the hydrogen can be made by electrolysis from
renewable sources.
But with either source, there are still problems :
= Both reforming and electrolys are relatively inefficient.
= Hydrogen storage is variable (and often low) in efficiency - hydrides are
heavy and tanks require considerable energy for compression.
= Energy is required to transport the hydrogen, either in pipelines or with
tanker vehicles, further diminising efficiency.
= Fuel cells are also less efficient than batteries.
What it add up to is a serious hit in efficiency.
Suppose that you run your FCV on hydrogen from a natural gas reformer. You
will STILL have a less efficient system than if you burned the natural gas
in a piston engine. And THAT will be somewhat less efficient than if you
burned the NG in a powerplant and charged the batteries in an EV. (Proof of
these assertions will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-)
OK, suppose we allow that an FCV does use electricity as its fuel (that is,
not reformed fossil fuel). Even then, the entire "supply chain" from, say,
PV cell or wind machine to wheels will STILL be less efficient, more
complex, and more expensive than using the same electricity in a BEV.
Thus the only real gains from an FCV are that it allows for fast refueling,
and for minimal disruption to the current refueling infrastructure. The
costs in efficiency for these small gains are high.
And here is the key. Who are you going to sell them to? We're told that
BEVs were a "failure" in the marketplace, and the reason usually given is
that they offer no significant consumer benefits over ICEs. Well, what
consumer benefits do FCVs offer over ICEs?
It's very difficult to show that FCVs have a place in a free market - and
most current Western governments show very little inclination to disturb
free market principles in ways that promote such social goals as clean air
and fuel independence. Even with their current limitations, there is more
potential market for BEVs than for FCVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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