EV Digest 5917
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by Lawrence Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Short and blunt - list abuse
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hot controller
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) toyota prius donor car?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) They are coming out of the woodwork!
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hot controller
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hot controller
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Disruptive dialogue
by doug korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Hot controller
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Australian listers
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hot controller
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: will not go
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) AC vs DC?
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: "Sucking Amps" TV show pulled out of mothballs
by "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motors
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Safety question
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Charging AGMs for Max life
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Your GPS's accuracy is not based on the 10-25m number. That is its
accuracy with respect to your absolute position. If you move a meter it
should show that accurately. The main source of error using a GPS is
it's update rate of 1 reading per second (or 5 per second on good
units). This means you only know where you are in a window of about .5
seconds. I don't think I have ever seen a spec on the latency from
when a reading is taken internally to when it ships out the serial port.
You could probably do several 0-60 runs and average the information to
get a time good enough for basic bragging.
Lawrence
Don Cameron wrote:
Hi Lawrence, I do use two devices for these types of measurements:
GPS for overall all trip measurements (location and altitude)
GTech meter for performance
The GPS, at a 10-25m accuracy I do not think would be quite good enough for
0-60 or 1/4 mile times. But it is more than adequate for recording a trip
then calculating energy usage or merging with EMeter data in a spreadsheet.
Check out my terrain and energy spreadsheet
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_EstimatingPowerNeeds.html
The GTech is good for 1/4 mile and 0-60 times. This can be downloaded as
well and merged with EMeter data, although since the EMeter records at 1
second intervals it might be a bit rough.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: September 25, 2006 6:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
Can a GPS be used to give 0 to 60 times? If so it could also be used to log
altitude, distance etc. for purposes of range calculation. Hell if you
could get it to talk to your emeter & a few other sensors like temperature
you could get some real good data to figure energy usage. Real range
estimate before you go on your trip. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where do you get confidence that a123 cells have a 2000 cycle life?
That takes over 6 months to test with 24x7 charge/discharge (if my sons
& I math is right :)
Frankly, by the time the NiMH cells are dying in 2-3 years, new battery
technology and lower prices would almost certainly be the case so you'd
want to replace them anyway, with some 3500v caps :) so I'm not too
concerned about cycle life over a lower initial cost. I liken this to
compact florescents last "3 years", but I replace them within a few
months in some cases..or I smash them on accident and my "investment" is
gone.
IB says 800 cycles for the D-Cells, did they make it up? Or we trust
A123, but not IB to give valid numbers?
Jack
Dmitri Hurik wrote:
I apologize about wrong facts about YT. But ok, a Typical NiMH cell
doing 800? Not fair comparison either. The typical I've seen on 99%
non-ev, low-cost cells such as SubC / D are 400-500 cycles. More costly
but better quality will do more(like Saft), but that's not "typical"
Example: http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5936/cyclehy3.gif HED-9000
cell, source: Suppo Battery, about 400 cycles.
And NiMH manuals I've seen advise AGAINST parallel charging.
And I agree with what Mike said:
Typically whoever makes a good sub-c is not a candidate for making a
good D cell. Rechargable D cells are a long forgotten cell type. So
serious testing is the only way you'll know anything.
In order to parallel nimh you must be able to separate the strings
occasionally for equalizing. So making that sub for a YT is going to
be fun.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps
available?
Dmitri,
Please check your facts before posting. You are comparing the
theoritical best case on the lead acid with the practical worse case
on the Nimh. It is not only unfair, it is not even realistic.
50 Ah at 1C rate for an YT?! You must be dreaming. And, you still
get 500 cycles? I doubt that this is even possible in the ideal lab
condition. I have tested near 200 YT's, none could do more than 45 Ah
even after an extensive break-in. Most could only do about 30Ah if
you do not wake them up slowly.
For a fairer comparison, a typical Nimh cell could do >800 cycles at
100% DOD at 1C rate before dropping below 80% of its original
capacity. And, charging them is far easier than charging LiIon. Nimh
batteries are designed to handle some overcharge.
On 9/25/06, Dmitri Hurik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well at $5 a piece I get $462 per kwh for these.
Yellowtops 24ah? Whaat? From the numbers I've seen they are about
50ah at 1
hour rate.
If they are $160, then I get $266 per kwh for YTs.
And these NIMH cells typically don't last longer than 500 cycles,
which is
not really any longer than lead acid. So your NIMH will cost about
twice as
much as lead acid. Is it worth the weight savings, but double price?
Your
call.
And competitive with A123? I say no. Bare IB9000 cells you say are $5 a
piece so $462/kwh. You can get A123 cells on eBay for $1350 per kwh in
DeWalt packs right now. That is not 3-4, more like 2-3 times the
cost. Then,
say you actually buy these A123 cells in bulk without those DeWalt
packs,
you might have $1000/kwh or less. And then, the IB9000 cells will
last about
500 cycles, where the A123 cells will easily last 2000 cycles
according to
a123, and should even last 3000+ cycles, are lighter and way more
powerful(30C cont and 80C long pulse, 100C short pulse). So the A123
cells
actually come out cheaper over their lifetime. And keep in mind these
are D
size NiMH cells, which are usually way less powerful than the Sub-C
cells
per kg. If you are smart, you should pick A123 instead. No point at
all in
these NiMHs. And charging NiMH isn't going to be any easier. They need a
different charging algorithm, unlike the CC/CV of Li-ion and lead acid.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:42 AM
Subject: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
> Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
> I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
>
> They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge rates,
> weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
>
> This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1 cells
at > much
> less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells)
for > 9Ah,
> the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are roughly
> half
> the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
>
> Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys tell
me > not
> to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price is
> about $160.
> 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
> That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>
> I will be testing, and will probably be importing some quantity of
them
> if they perform as advertised.
>
> Jack
>
> Dmitri Hurik wrote:
>> Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
>>
>> Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
>> already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC
cars.
>> Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with
>> increased battery weight.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" >>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
>> Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
>>
>>
>>> Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
>>> What kind of power output?
>>>
>>> How about on the battery front?
>>>
>>> How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
>>> energy storage devices?
>>>
>>> Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge of
>>> actually being released?
>>>
>>
>>
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: RE: Short and blunt - list abuse
> Even Rich knows that we just HAVE to hit him with a 2x4 once in awhile.
:-)
>
> Bill D. (in Houston, still)
>
> At 04:06 PM 9/25/2006, you wrote:
>
Carefull Bill you are not sitting 18 inches from THE 2by 4..
It can bite...and it's close.
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> :) You decided to use cryptography on you message here ...
>
> -Jukka
>
> Osmo S. kirjoitti:
> > Patrionizing...patronizing... kuka näitä kaikkia muistaa! :)
> >
> > Osmo
klaatu barata nicto ... ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 1974 Toyota Celica that I finished converting last spring.
http://chriskate.net/electriccar.html
It is basically an electroauto.com kit. 120v system using 15 8volt
trojan T-875 with a Curtis controller.
I drive it 46 miles round trip (23 each way) to work from Seattle
(Lake City Way) to Tukwila (south seattle) via I-5. I have no
problems going 70 mph, it take a little while to get there though.
I can charge at work, so range is not a problem. I figure I could
probably do the whole thing without a charge.
My primary problem has been my controller overheating. I had it
mounted to a big aluminum plate, but that didn't work, so I got a big
aluminum heat sink, and some high volume fans, but that didn't help
much. I got an air scoop and put the controller right under it with
the fans, heat sink and all, but that didn't help. I have now moved
it to the very front of the grill and got rid of the fans, but still
have the heat sink.
I have a temperature gauge so I can watch what is happening with the
controller. To deal with I-5 traffic and the gradual hills, I'm
generally crusing between 200 and 400 amps, and pegging out at 550
amps to accellerate. In the morning, when it is cooler, overheating
is not that much of a problem, but coming home when it is warmer
outside, I sometimes have problems.
Problems are when the controller temperature gets above about 117
degrees, at which point it starts to make a high winning noise, and
then will start to cut out and reduce amps. Sometimes I get cutting
out at 110 or even lower, if I"m pulling over 400 amps for too long.
Is this normal? Any suggestions on ways to run cooler (other than to
go slower). If I go any slower I will get run over. It's bad enough
that most of the time I'm ONLY going 60 to 65. I have thought about
geting a Zilla, but don't have the money at the moment. Would that
cure my problem?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
There was a disscussion about how a Hybrid car would
be a good donor car to be 100% EV. (I think?)
I was looking at 2005 Toyota Prius that is going on
auction with front end damage. Looks like an
automatic.
Could you just take the motor out and put a 9" DC
motor, or are you better off just trying to get some
more NIMH battery packs, and a charger? And never put
gas in?
Car seems pretty heavy for its size.
How much are the batteries worth? Car has 15K miles.
thanks
Michael Golub
1986 Toyota PU 120VDC 9"WarP
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> why don't you guys use transformers or inducers and the such...
Now why didn't all the gurus on this list think of that?
I'll bet Mr. Tilley is all over that one.
And you call yourselves EV people.
Pshaw!
Marv
>> I have been getting more responses from the TV show and I thought I would
>> share this one with you folks.
>>
>> Roderick Wilde
>>
>> Hi my name is James and I love your show.. Got a question, why don't you
>> guys use transformers or inducers and the such.... you can amplify your
>> voltage and amperage on both dc and ac level, thus getting rid of the
>> batteries... I tried and tested it..seems to work on a low budget.. But
>> haven't tested it with high dollar transformers and transducer, and other
>> power increasing options. Guys its out there don't think the power
> companies
>> don't know about it, it can be done. And we know all the rules to the
>> perpetual motion law.. If it was impossible then why make a law? There
> isn't
>> a person can't fly law... Anyway try the transformers and inducers,
>> transducers and other componets.. And do me a favor, if you do decide to
> use
>> this idea.. can i get some credit and some tickets to come and see u guys
>> and help..
>> thx james
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
I'm going to take some guesses:
1) Your 1221B controller (120V, IIRC) could be
replaced with a 1231-8601. Higher currents, better
heat dissipation for about $500 through ElectroAuto.
2) Your controller plate isn't mounted at the front
of your rig, but could be. More acceleration means
more amps means more heat, means faster car means
higher airflow, IF it's mounted there.
3) There is an electrical issue going on. Your
Celica is light. You shouldn't be pulling 500 unless
you're a leadfoot. My Rabbit MIGHT see 350-425A if I
was at a dead stop on a hill. Take it easier?
Hope that helps,
--- Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a 1974 Toyota Celica that I finished
> converting last spring.
>
> http://chriskate.net/electriccar.html
>
> It is basically an electroauto.com kit. 120v system
> using 15 8volt
> trojan T-875 with a Curtis controller.
>
> I drive it 46 miles round trip (23 each way) to work
> from Seattle
> (Lake City Way) to Tukwila (south seattle) via I-5.
> I have no
> problems going 70 mph, it take a little while to get
> there though.
>
> I can charge at work, so range is not a problem. I
> figure I could
> probably do the whole thing without a charge.
>
> My primary problem has been my controller
> overheating. I had it
> mounted to a big aluminum plate, but that didn't
> work, so I got a big
> aluminum heat sink, and some high volume fans, but
> that didn't help
> much. I got an air scoop and put the controller
> right under it with
> the fans, heat sink and all, but that didn't help.
> I have now moved
> it to the very front of the grill and got rid of the
> fans, but still
> have the heat sink.
>
> I have a temperature gauge so I can watch what is
> happening with the
> controller. To deal with I-5 traffic and the
> gradual hills, I'm
> generally crusing between 200 and 400 amps, and
> pegging out at 550
> amps to accellerate. In the morning, when it is
> cooler, overheating
> is not that much of a problem, but coming home when
> it is warmer
> outside, I sometimes have problems.
>
> Problems are when the controller temperature gets
> above about 117
> degrees, at which point it starts to make a high
> winning noise, and
> then will start to cut out and reduce amps.
> Sometimes I get cutting
> out at 110 or even lower, if I"m pulling over 400
> amps for too long.
>
> Is this normal? Any suggestions on ways to run
> cooler (other than to
> go slower). If I go any slower I will get run over.
> It's bad enough
> that most of the time I'm ONLY going 60 to 65. I
> have thought about
> geting a Zilla, but don't have the money at the
> moment. Would that
> cure my problem?
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
whhaaaaattt?
$500?
shows up for $1750 for me :o(
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Hot controller
Chris,
I'm going to take some guesses:
1) Your 1221B controller (120V, IIRC) could be
replaced with a 1231-8601. Higher currents, better
heat dissipation for about $500 through ElectroAuto.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
An interesting issue, whether to allow disruptive postings and oil company
flacks.
The correct position seems to be that such folks can find other venues; it's
difficult enough to get any work done, but impossible when bickering and
concerned with philosophical questions such as this.
1. Disruptive postings just stir up trouble, and detract from the problem;
while
2. oil company adherents have lots of censored venues, such as Chevron's
"WillYouJoinUs.com".
Unless there's a lesson to be learned, or information, my rule is to not allow
the other side to create dissention. For example, this is a useless,
"meta-discussion" post, made only because this disruption caused me to waste
time noticing and answering it.
Doug
>I don't agree with some things you say and find you abrasive and uncouth
>YET, the key difference between us is that I would never ask for anyone to
>be removed from this list. In the words of Voltaire "I might not agree with
>all you say but I will defend your right to say it". You however, want
>anyone that appears to disrespect your imaginary hierarchy to be removed.
>Unlike you, I do not wish to get respect (you're projecting) however, I do
>wish to know the truth.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dmitri,
You obviously have not been following our GAIA I system development
(www.airlabcorp.com). The system treats each string independently for
recharging. And, it even makes sure every string gets to a full
charge at the same time. This further ensures that the voltages of
the strings are very close to each other even right after a recharge.
This helps them to discharge equally on the next cycle.
We are using industrial grade high drain cells as regular consumer
type cells are not designed for high drain purposes. We have a lot of
spec sheets from different vendors. Yours is the only one that show
such a low cycle life. Can you directly me to where you get your
graph from? I would like to learn more about it.
Doing a full charge on every charge does reduce the cycle life. This
is because the full charge definition on a Nimh or a NiCad infers an
over-charge. This is why you get a -dv/dt -- the cell is being
overcharged and is heating up causing a its voltage to drop. You
could do the same on an YT. In fact, Optima recommends such an
over-charge to restore its capacity once in a while. It would reduce
its cycle life though.
On 9/25/06, Dmitri Hurik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I apologize about wrong facts about YT. But ok, a Typical NiMH cell doing
800? Not fair comparison either. The typical I've seen on 99% non-ev,
low-cost cells such as SubC / D are 400-500 cycles. More costly but better
quality will do more(like Saft), but that's not "typical" Example:
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5936/cyclehy3.gif HED-9000 cell, source:
Suppo Battery, about 400 cycles.
And NiMH manuals I've seen advise AGAINST parallel charging.
And I agree with what Mike said:
Typically whoever makes a good sub-c is not a candidate for making a
good D cell. Rechargable D cells are a long forgotten cell type. So
serious testing is the only way you'll know anything.
In order to parallel nimh you must be able to separate the strings
occasionally for equalizing. So making that sub for a YT is going to
be fun.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
> Dmitri,
>
> Please check your facts before posting. You are comparing the
> theoritical best case on the lead acid with the practical worse case
> on the Nimh. It is not only unfair, it is not even realistic.
>
> 50 Ah at 1C rate for an YT?! You must be dreaming. And, you still
> get 500 cycles? I doubt that this is even possible in the ideal lab
> condition. I have tested near 200 YT's, none could do more than 45 Ah
> even after an extensive break-in. Most could only do about 30Ah if
> you do not wake them up slowly.
>
> For a fairer comparison, a typical Nimh cell could do >800 cycles at
> 100% DOD at 1C rate before dropping below 80% of its original
> capacity. And, charging them is far easier than charging LiIon. Nimh
> batteries are designed to handle some overcharge.
>
> On 9/25/06, Dmitri Hurik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Well at $5 a piece I get $462 per kwh for these.
>> Yellowtops 24ah? Whaat? From the numbers I've seen they are about 50ah at
>> 1
>> hour rate.
>> If they are $160, then I get $266 per kwh for YTs.
>>
>> And these NIMH cells typically don't last longer than 500 cycles, which
>> is
>> not really any longer than lead acid. So your NIMH will cost about twice
>> as
>> much as lead acid. Is it worth the weight savings, but double price? Your
>> call.
>>
>> And competitive with A123? I say no. Bare IB9000 cells you say are $5 a
>> piece so $462/kwh. You can get A123 cells on eBay for $1350 per kwh in
>> DeWalt packs right now. That is not 3-4, more like 2-3 times the cost.
>> Then,
>> say you actually buy these A123 cells in bulk without those DeWalt packs,
>> you might have $1000/kwh or less. And then, the IB9000 cells will last
>> about
>> 500 cycles, where the A123 cells will easily last 2000 cycles according
>> to
>> a123, and should even last 3000+ cycles, are lighter and way more
>> powerful(30C cont and 80C long pulse, 100C short pulse). So the A123
>> cells
>> actually come out cheaper over their lifetime. And keep in mind these are
>> D
>> size NiMH cells, which are usually way less powerful than the Sub-C cells
>> per kg. If you are smart, you should pick A123 instead. No point at all
>> in
>> these NiMHs. And charging NiMH isn't going to be any easier. They need a
>> different charging algorithm, unlike the CC/CV of Li-ion and lead acid.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:42 AM
>> Subject: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
>>
>>
>> > Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
>> > I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
>> >
>> > They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge rates,
>> > weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
>> >
>> > This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1 cells at
>> > much
>> > less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells) for
>> > 9Ah,
>> > the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are roughly
>> > half
>> > the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
>> >
>> > Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys tell me
>> > not
>> > to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price is
>> > about $160.
>> > 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
>> > That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>> >
>> > I will be testing, and will probably be importing some quantity of them
>> > if they perform as advertised.
>> >
>> > Jack
>> >
>> > Dmitri Hurik wrote:
>> >> Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
>> >>
>> >> Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
>> >> already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars.
>> >> Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with
>> >> increased battery weight.
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts"
>> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
>> >> Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
>> >>> What kind of power output?
>> >>>
>> >>> How about on the battery front?
>> >>>
>> >>> How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
>> >>> energy storage devices?
>> >>>
>> >>> Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge of
>> >>> actually being released?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris, what gear are you in at highway speeds? It sounds like you
may be in too high a gear. Try to work out what your motor rpm is at
cruising speed.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The current edition of "Renew" has an article on two EVs (one of them is
mine). Renew is a 3 monthly magazine that deals with alternative lifestyle
issues similar to US "Homepower" David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry not to be clearer. Curtis used to have an
_upgrade_ program, not a replacement-- sorry... to
_swap_ one for the other via Mike.
TTYL,
--- Mark McCurdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> whhaaaaattt?
> $500?
> shows up for $1750 for me :o(
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Hot controller
>
>
> > Chris,
> > I'm going to take some guesses:
> > 1) Your 1221B controller (120V, IIRC) could be
> > replaced with a 1231-8601. Higher currents,
> better
> > heat dissipation for about $500 through
> ElectroAuto.
> >
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Theres Rob Mathis in Sandersville, and Dave, and Matt, and who knows who
else.
Sounds like a rescue to me, there may be help yet. HOWEVER
I have to go to Saginaw for the next two weekends to rescue another
one of my interests. (Railroad)
good luck
Joe Kidd in Cincinnati
If there's to be a southeast EV'ers search-and-rescue gathering, count
me in. Atlanta is only about four hours away from Nashville.
Matt
On 9/25/06, David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Calvin, you are near Atlanta, correct?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I drove in the wrong gear and did the same thing...
USB was able to melt on a new post, but due to plastic
melting around it, always got acid vapor (corrosion)
around it just a smidge faster than all of the rest.
Would imagine trojan would want to claim the same.
Check with your distributor. It was $5 for me, but
that was 8 years ago.
FWIW, you might consider Bellville washers. Mike
Brown at ElectroAuto sells them for dirt cheap, and
the goal is to maintain tight contact.
peace,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Today was my first break down.
>
> I was 7 miles from home towards work, and upon
> accelerating at a traffic
> light lost motor power. I quickly pulled into the
> first available lot, and
> discovered one of my battery posts completely melted
> the post down to
> molten nothingness.
>
> I learned my lesson for sure. I should have watered
> my batteries 10 days
> ago, so would have naturally checked for loose
> connections at the same
> time.
>
> I was able to jumper past the battery in 40 minutes
> and get on my way. I
> won't have automatic charging (Zivan will overcharge
> a pack with one less
> battery) until I replace fix.
>
> ???QUESTIONS:???
>
> 1. Can a Trojan T-125 battery post be rebuilt?
> 2. If not, how can I get a similar (1 year old)
> battery?
> 3. If not, how should I order a new battery to have
> it match the others
> most closely
>
>
>
> 2nd set of questions.
> In my vehicle, both battery post clamps and battery
> copper lugs are used.
> Today, I learned I should have long ago replaced the
> post clamp with copper
> lugs.
> However, I'm also baffled.
> battery post clamps have been around forever, and I
> doubt loosen in
> gasoline vehicle environments. So, why have I had
> trouble with this. It
> was fairly tight 2 months ago.
> I had problem with another clamp 5 months ago that
> partially melted a post
> (not too much), I caught it in time, so that it is
> really tight.
>
> ??Are clamps inferior to lugs, or is it just the
> installation that is
> inferior?
>
> For the rest of you, tighten your connections if you
> don't already.
> I learned the $100 way
>
> BTW. I've never been able to fix my gas car when it
> died. This is proof
> that this is the great technology!! (one that can be
> fixed by the average
> Joe)
>
> I'll keep you POSTED,
> Ben
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who emailed me
personally.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this, although
I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I want to
understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific technology.
>From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient than
DC in an EV.
Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
expensive? Are there other limitations?
It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this talk I'm
seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
cost/performance battery solution is.
Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to get up to
at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
seconds car would drive me insane.
Suggestions anyone?
Thanks,
Mike (the new guy)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know, I sure wish they would play that more than just once and quit
doing it so randomly. I caught the last 5 minutes of it a couple of years
ago and sure enough it was not scheduled to come on again according to their
website. It drove me crazy that I missed it! So I figured OK I'll just keep
an eye out for it but still nothing for months so I gave up. Seems like this
is the same thing. Just play it once, enough that a few people might
actually see it, but dont play it enough to get broad exposure to people
other than the odd housewives and children staying home sick from school..
All I can say is that I am glad I have good enough connections to get my
hands on a VHS copy so I could at least watch the show. If there is enough
interest, I could convert to Xvid/Divx and share via torrent (~700 megs). I
am guessing its likely they will not replay that show again for another year
or more. All I ask is for 5 people to say they are interested ;-) (off list
please).
Dave O.
On 9/25/06, Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I went home for lunch at Noon, here on the west coast, and it was
playing on the Discovery Channel.
bruce parmenter wrote:
> Roderick,
>
> Looks like it was this morning at 9am PST, or 12:00 PM (noon) EDT:
>
>
> -
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/25/06, Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Where do you get confidence that a123 cells have a 2000 cycle life?
That takes over 6 months to test with 24x7 charge/discharge (if my sons
& I math is right :)
Dewalt warranties their A123 packs to 2000 cycles if I recall
correctly, so that number is probably quite accurate.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I probably would not make it to the end of the strip if I
stomp on the throttle as if I'd race, but this is pure guess and
I didn't want to try to get stuck in the middle of the run.
But I certainly would have enough energy to make it to the end
"normally". Calculation showed the 16.8F cap bank can move me
exactly 1.6 miles at low (30 mph) speeds before voltage drops
below inverter's lowest cutoff.
When I returned to the pits, the voltage was 276V (down from 360V),
so I regretted I didn't do twice as long and impressive
burnout. Oh, well, there is always next time...
Yes, these caps would be prohibitively expensive if purchased
"normally" (if I recall, about $200/cap and I have 160 of them),
but PC2500 were out of production and Maxwell got rid of
them at $45/piece. So I go away with less than $10k bank.
If you want range, don't use the caps. Spend these money
rather on extra batteries containing energy.
Power - different story - with allowed discharge rates you
*may* get ahead with caps vs LiPo or lead, but if it worth
the expense I can't judge.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Danny Miller wrote:
Victor's capacitor burnout can be viewed here:
http://www.haritech.com/
He did not do a proper run because I believe the caps would have petered
out before getting him up to an impressive speed. That was an
enormously expensive capacitor bank too, Maxwell Boostcaps I believe.
But hey, just ask Victor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark wrote, "we're waiting on someone to scan a better
version, lots of the pages have illegible spots like
this one
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/controller/page12.gif";.
No need -- Internet Explorer 6 butches these larger
GIFs on small display resolution settings, but if you
hover around the upper left corner, a little box comes
up, goes away, then a little box comes up along the
bottom that, when clicked, expands the picture, which
makes all the pages as clear as decent photocopies,
except for this page 12, but the last 4 pages are
enlargements that are readable. Incidentally page 12
is repeated at page position 26.
I saved and inserted these pages in to a 5 MB Word
document and it reads fine. If anyone wants me to
send it to them, whole or cut up in a few pieces, let
me know.
Chris Jones
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I find this statement hard to believe...:) If this is true I have a very
nice 11.5 inch motor.
Mike G.
The 11's will pull twice the torque at 1500 rpm at half the ampere as with a
Warp 9 or a ADC 9 which would be the same torque and ampere at about 3000
rpm.
My GE 11 pulls 175 motor and battery amperes at 60 mph in 3rd gear ratio of
5.57:1.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:16 AM 9/25/2006, you wrote:
If I build a 288V pack and I want to put a breaker and/or an emergency
cutoff switch in the middle of it, what voltage do those need to be
rated for? Do they need to be able to break the whole pack voltage? Or
half of it? Or some other magic number?
Thanks,
Jake Oshins
Depends on your motor & controller. The Azure Dynamics system DOES
NOT want a circuit breaker. There are safety features handled
internally in the controller, but breaking the circuit under load
could damage the controller.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water said:
I intend to have 3 indicators in the dashboard,
isolated from
the pack through opto-couplers in the balancers:
- (RED) low voltage warning
- (Yellow) one or more batteries at max charge voltage
- (Green) all batteries are at max charge voltage
The yellow warning will tell the charger to back off
the
current to avoid gassing a battery that is higher in
SOC
than others.
The green indicator is the "end of charge" signal.
My fear is that the circuit will become too complex,
so it
will not be used or easy to build as my current design
which is optimised in minimum component count.
Did you consider using red/green leds to lower the
count?
storm
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Firefox with the ImageZoom extension handles this just fine, as well.
Chris Jones wrote:
Mark wrote, "we're waiting on someone to scan a better
version, lots of the pages have illegible spots like
this one
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/controller/page12.gif";.
No need -- Internet Explorer 6 butches these larger
GIFs on small display resolution settings, but if you
hover around the upper left corner, a little box comes
up, goes away, then a little box comes up along the
bottom that, when clicked, expands the picture, which
makes all the pages as clear as decent photocopies,
except for this page 12, but the last 4 pages are
enlargements that are readable. Incidentally page 12
is repeated at page position 26.
I saved and inserted these pages in to a 5 MB Word
document and it reads fine. If anyone wants me to
send it to them, whole or cut up in a few pieces, let
me know.
Chris Jones
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
800 cycles, okay, good. So tell me about your project you are planning on
using these cells for. Where can I buy these for $5-$6? I can't find these
on their site.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
Where do you get confidence that a123 cells have a 2000 cycle life?
That takes over 6 months to test with 24x7 charge/discharge (if my sons &
I math is right :)
Frankly, by the time the NiMH cells are dying in 2-3 years, new battery
technology and lower prices would almost certainly be the case so you'd
want to replace them anyway, with some 3500v caps :) so I'm not too
concerned about cycle life over a lower initial cost. I liken this to
compact florescents last "3 years", but I replace them within a few months
in some cases..or I smash them on accident and my "investment" is gone.
IB says 800 cycles for the D-Cells, did they make it up? Or we trust
A123, but not IB to give valid numbers?
Jack
Dmitri Hurik wrote:
I apologize about wrong facts about YT. But ok, a Typical NiMH cell doing
800? Not fair comparison either. The typical I've seen on 99% non-ev,
low-cost cells such as SubC / D are 400-500 cycles. More costly but
better quality will do more(like Saft), but that's not "typical"
Example: http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5936/cyclehy3.gif HED-9000
cell, source: Suppo Battery, about 400 cycles.
And NiMH manuals I've seen advise AGAINST parallel charging.
And I agree with what Mike said:
Typically whoever makes a good sub-c is not a candidate for making a
good D cell. Rechargable D cells are a long forgotten cell type. So
serious testing is the only way you'll know anything.
In order to parallel nimh you must be able to separate the strings
occasionally for equalizing. So making that sub for a YT is going to
be fun.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps
available?
Dmitri,
Please check your facts before posting. You are comparing the
theoritical best case on the lead acid with the practical worse case
on the Nimh. It is not only unfair, it is not even realistic.
50 Ah at 1C rate for an YT?! You must be dreaming. And, you still
get 500 cycles? I doubt that this is even possible in the ideal lab
condition. I have tested near 200 YT's, none could do more than 45 Ah
even after an extensive break-in. Most could only do about 30Ah if
you do not wake them up slowly.
For a fairer comparison, a typical Nimh cell could do >800 cycles at
100% DOD at 1C rate before dropping below 80% of its original
capacity. And, charging them is far easier than charging LiIon. Nimh
batteries are designed to handle some overcharge.
On 9/25/06, Dmitri Hurik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well at $5 a piece I get $462 per kwh for these.
Yellowtops 24ah? Whaat? From the numbers I've seen they are about 50ah
at 1
hour rate.
If they are $160, then I get $266 per kwh for YTs.
And these NIMH cells typically don't last longer than 500 cycles, which
is
not really any longer than lead acid. So your NIMH will cost about
twice as
much as lead acid. Is it worth the weight savings, but double price?
Your
call.
And competitive with A123? I say no. Bare IB9000 cells you say are $5 a
piece so $462/kwh. You can get A123 cells on eBay for $1350 per kwh in
DeWalt packs right now. That is not 3-4, more like 2-3 times the cost.
Then,
say you actually buy these A123 cells in bulk without those DeWalt
packs,
you might have $1000/kwh or less. And then, the IB9000 cells will last
about
500 cycles, where the A123 cells will easily last 2000 cycles according
to
a123, and should even last 3000+ cycles, are lighter and way more
powerful(30C cont and 80C long pulse, 100C short pulse). So the A123
cells
actually come out cheaper over their lifetime. And keep in mind these
are D
size NiMH cells, which are usually way less powerful than the Sub-C
cells
per kg. If you are smart, you should pick A123 instead. No point at all
in
these NiMHs. And charging NiMH isn't going to be any easier. They need
a
different charging algorithm, unlike the CC/CV of Li-ion and lead acid.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:42 AM
Subject: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps
available?
> Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
> I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
>
> They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge rates,
> weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
>
> This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1 cells
at > much
> less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells)
for > 9Ah,
> the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are roughly
> half
> the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
>
> Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys tell
me > not
> to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price
> is
> about $160.
> 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
> That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>
> I will be testing, and will probably be importing some quantity of
them
> if they perform as advertised.
>
> Jack
>
> Dmitri Hurik wrote:
>> Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
>>
>> Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
>> already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC
cars.
>> Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with
>> increased battery weight.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" >>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
>> Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
>>
>>
>>> Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
>>> What kind of power output?
>>>
>>> How about on the battery front?
>>>
>>> How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
>>> energy storage devices?
>>>
>>> Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge
>>> of
>>> actually being released?
>>>
>>
>>
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
![http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/controller/page12.gif"](http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/controller/page12.gif"){kind=link}