EV Digest 5923
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AC vs DC?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AC vs DC?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Tell me about the point of diminishing returns (motors)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AC vs DC?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Lawn mower motor upgrade help?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: yahoo answers: ev's
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Blue Xebra on Ebay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Lawn mower motor upgrade help?
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: yahoo answers: ev's
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC vs DC?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Installation questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
20) To David Roden
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: AC vs DC?
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: AC vs DC?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
BTW, Toyota uses PM motors and generators, not AC induction for all of it's
hybrids.
I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the controller
fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it
just
shuts down?
AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC motor.
Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase. They
are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they would last
longer than DC as well because of this. Less starting amperage is also
easier
on the batteries.
All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in the
last 10 years that I know of.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sort of. This can happen with DC, though modern controllers rarely
suffer this problem, as there are ample safety interlocks. I'm not sure
if this has ever happened to a Zilla. Otmar?
Thing is, you can have the same sort of failure (shorted power module)
in an AC system. Doesn't mean your controller doesn't smoke.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the controller
fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it just
shuts down?
AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC motor.
Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase. They
are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they would last
longer than DC as well because of this. Less starting amperage is also easier
on the batteries.
All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in the
last 10 years that I know of.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been told that if the AC controller fails the vehicle will not go to
maximum power as a DC system does. Is this not true?
By the time you react it could be a very bad accident not a smoked
controller that I would be worried about.
Don
In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:34:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sort of. This can happen with DC, though modern controllers rarely
suffer this problem, as there are ample safety interlocks. I'm not sure
if this has ever happened to a Zilla. Otmar?
Thing is, you can have the same sort of failure (shorted power module)
in an AC system. Doesn't mean your controller doesn't smoke.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the controller
> fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it
just
> shuts down?
>
> AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC motor.
>
> Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase.
They
> are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they would
last
> longer than DC as well because of this. Less starting amperage is also
easier
> on the batteries.
>
> All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in the
> last 10 years that I know of.
>
> Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We all know about 1 motor. And a little about having two motors on a
shaft or two coupled together.
Now how about 3 on a shaft? How about 4?
At what point of piling motors onto the car do we start to not get
improved results?
The whole situation reminds me of tractor pulling in the sense that we
have to run so many because 1 just isn't powerful
enough...(apparently)
4 turbines?
http://www.just4fun.lu/tp/tractor_pulling_bettborn_120.jpg
http://www.trecker-treck-deutschland.de/galleries/Bakel/images/img_9931.jpg
Looks like 5 motors on this one..
http://www.tractorpulling.freeserve.co.uk/GGTS06-2.jpg
?
http://www.pullingworld.com/images/neue_s6.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ahh, the old FWC inverter fault issue. We're working on it. As for AC
motors being lighter, I cannot agree with that as the rotors are typically
much heavier while stators are fairly similar. I've never seen AC power
densities even close to that of the PM machines. And since when was higher
speed desirable? Higher rpm means higher gear reduction and even more
efficiency losses. If you can get the same output power at half the speed,
isn't that a better alternative?
I should probably mention that I work for a motor manufacturer. I am not
here to sell anything or to champion my own cause. I am here to stay
current on the state of EV systems and the issues that people are currently
encountering. All in all this is good discussion.
I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the controller
fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it
just
shuts down?
AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC motor.
Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase. They
are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they would last
longer than DC as well because of this. Less starting amperage is also
easier
on the batteries.
All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in the
last 10 years that I know of.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just about every GPS has a "fake" compass which calculates the compass
direction based on movement of position. This is OK for faster moving
vehicles, but useless for hiking and possibly slower electric bikes.
Some GPS have built in magnetic compasses which are much more accurate for
slow moving hikers and such.
So you do not really need to have a built in magnetic compass, if you have
the ability to calculate the direction based upon your GPS points. Doing
the calc in lat/long will probably be accurate enough. Doing the calc in
UTM may be off a bit as UTM north (aka grid north) tends to point to the CM
of the zone the further from centre, rather than pointing to true north. If
this doesn't make sense, just get a GPS with a builtin magnetic compass.
The other alternative is to question what use is the compass anyways?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Fowler
Sent: September 26, 2006 12:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
I don't think any of the external GPS units have an on board compass.
Think about it.
An external unit (serial or usb) can be oriented in ANY direction relative
to the base unit (laptop, pda, whatever), so any compass readings would be
wrong.
However, pretty much all GPS software can determine the direction (and
speed) of movement simply by comparing the current position with the
previous.
Having said that, some all-in-one GPS units may indeed have an electronic
compass built in, which would be useful when hiking through GPS-unfriendly
terrain like heavy forest or a narrow ravines, or when the device is first
turned on before it gets a satellite lock.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 September 2006 12:45 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
>
>
> Jukka,
>
> Can you recommend any good GPS chips/devices that are serial/USB
> capable that also have an on-board compass? And (preferrably) for
> cheap?
>
> -- Eric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's true, there would have to be a divine miracle to make a inverter
based AC system run away.
On 9/26/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have been told that if the AC controller fails the vehicle will not go to
maximum power as a DC system does. Is this not true?
By the time you react it could be a very bad accident not a smoked
controller that I would be worried about.
Don
In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:34:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sort of. This can happen with DC, though modern controllers rarely
suffer this problem, as there are ample safety interlocks. I'm not sure
if this has ever happened to a Zilla. Otmar?
Thing is, you can have the same sort of failure (shorted power module)
in an AC system. Doesn't mean your controller doesn't smoke.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the controller
> fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it
just
> shuts down?
>
> AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC motor.
>
> Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase.
They
> are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they would
last
> longer than DC as well because of this. Less starting amperage is also
easier
> on the batteries.
>
> All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in the
> last 10 years that I know of.
>
> Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking to upgrade my sears mower that has a single etek running a hydro
and a 42" deck.
I found the following 24VDC mower PM motor as surplus center.
http://tinyurl.com/gyt5s
I was thinking two of those might run the deck better then the belt system that
is currently in there. Shoudl I be able to reliably put them in series so I can
run them off the same 48 volt pack as the drive?
They hydromatic tranny is really dying so I was considering getting something
like a go cart axle and hooking it to the two rear tires. Then I'd need a
controller to run the etek hooked up to the rear but at least least it would be
direct drive.
I have been really looking for a rear/front ATV mower deck that has no ICE but
haven't had any luck and a new one is far too much to just gut. It would
however allow me to up the Etek to to just the deck and put together something
to just carry me and batteries around in a more ideal fashion then a no room
Craftsman Tractor. if anyone has any thoughts or ideas I'm really open to
anything right now. My deck is going bad and my tranny is dead so I'm almost
starting from scratch.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Pat,
Also try to make it to the day before - the EV show and rally
in Palo Alto this coming Saturday, as there will be people
over there that have Porsche conversions, which could result
in some good advice ;-)
For location, time and directions: see Silicon VAlley EAA
website:
www.eaasv.org
See you there,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Pat Mackey
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
Mike,
I'm also a newbie on the list and considering a 914 conversion.
AC seems to fit the bill for me, so that's where I'm leaning...
I'm in the SF Bay Area and for that reason going with the Electro Automotive
kit - since they are local I can save on shipping and drop in for occasional
advice.
If you are in the area, Electro Automotive is giving a free workshop on
conversions October 1st in Cupertino.
http://www.electroauto.com/workshop.shtml
Hope to see you there.
=Pat
----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:34:10 AM
Subject: Found my donor car - needs heat
I found my donor car!!!!
And I'm picking it up this weekend.
A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust, just a
spot on the engine mount bar.
Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without more
knowledge and info, but winter is coming soon and one of the few things that
is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
installing an electric heater.
What do you folks use in your EVs?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 26, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Michael Trefry wrote:
I found my donor car!!!!
And I'm picking it up this weekend.
A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust,
just a
spot on the engine mount bar.
Great! You'll be much happier with a car you like.
Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without more
knowledge and info,
Running is also great because you can sell the ICE components and get
more money from them if they're in running condition.
but winter is coming soon and one of the few things that
is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
installing an electric heater.
What do you folks use in your EVs?
I purchased an electric heater from Canadian EV <http://www.canev.com>.
It's not listed on their website, though. The website only shows the
PTC heating element. Try contacting them directly and asking about it.
The heater is a unit with a steel enclosure around one of the PTC
heating elements, a mounting bracket, and a three-speed blower. It
also includes two dashboard vents and some heater hose to connect them
to the heater.
I'll be connecting full pack voltage (192VDC) to the heating element,
and 12v to the blower. I think that many other EV heaters are designed
the same way. You won't have a pack until you convert the car, so I
don't think an "EV" heater is going to do you much good in an ICE.
Unless you run it on house current via an extension cord.
I have not installed and tested it yet, so I don't yet know how well it
will work. However, I'm confident that it will work very well.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go to the web site directory:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/controller/
and save all the pictures that do not have the addition _small
then you will be able to open the top right corner in your favorite
gif displayer and see that diode is an 1N5818
(Schottky Barrier Rectifier)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
On 9/26/06, Mark McCurdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 0-o
> I saved the gif and opened it in photoshop
> I clipped the top right corner and made a jpg out of it
Jpeg compression generally makes this kind of thing a lot worse. Use
GIF or PNG which gives you back the same bitmap that you put in.
> I didn't change the resolution
> http://members.cox.net/junkymagi/page12-toprightcorner.jpg
> tell me, you can really read that 1N number? the resistor value to the
left
> of it?
1N6818. 0.6 Ohms.
Yeah, some of it's a little fuzzy, but if you were actually going to
build it, it's useable.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just as was POSTed this China company is making a Smart looking
knock-off with a nEV performance:
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/cp_detail.php?id=1993&nowmenuid=23&cpath=0272:0275:0280:&catid=280
If one did buy it, would the owner's local DMV register it?
Could they drive it on U.S. streets?
...
What is next? Knock-off EV parts/components for sale?
www.evparts.cn ???
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sheesh. You'd think the group was fronting the ICE industry. Most of this seems
like misinformation...
-Ralph
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:19:48 -0500
"Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AnDR3SaGVHGiKBbpMpueJ27sy6IX?qid=20060926101918AAgwFcI
>
> I signed up for Yahoo answers the other day. I decided to probe the
> zeigeist on EV's. I thought the results were a bit disappointing, but
> was happy to see that no one says they are slow.
>
> --------------------------------------
> Question: What are the largest obstacles to the adoption of pure
> electric vehicles in the consumer market?
> -------------------------------------
> Thomas: Cost, design and in the long run, efficiency. Yes, the car may
> not produce any emissions but think about the energy source, which is
> still mainly fossil fuels burned in a factory.
>
> A gasoline car gets about 25% efficiency out of the gasoline it burns.
> A power plant may get roughly the same efficiency but then as the
> electricity is transported along power lines some of it is lost. By
> the time it reaches the car battery, it is only about at 8%
> efficiency. So, if both energy sources are coming from fossil fuels,
> which one is better?
> -------------------------------------
> SPONGEBOB: THE BATTERIES, AND POWER STATIONS, AND DISTANCE.
> -------------------------------------
> ekstreem8: price of the technology, the distance the car can go on a
> single charge, the price to insure such a vehicle, the fact that they
> would have to retrain the entire fire department on how to deal with
> car fires with batteries the size of a coffee table.
> -------------------------------------
> douglas z: They are not much more cost efficient than gas powered
> cars, after you consider everything. And distance is limited.
> -------------------------------------
> SigmundS of Yew: Batteries,
> with the advent of hydrogen cell batteries we may soon have a viable
> alternative to the big ole lead acid ones .. but the technology just
> isnt efficient enough yet. The cost of the power isn't cheep enough
> yet. would you pay 1.40 $ per mile ??
> -------------------------------------
> David W: Battery tech is about 10yrs behind were it should be. I think
> this is the limitation.
> -------------------------------------
> brian l: The cars ranges are too short and the recharging time is too
> long if you stayed in the city the car would be just fine. replacing
> bad batteries are very expensive and disposal of the old batteries is
> a problem as they are considered toxic waste. In cold climates the
> batteries lose a lot of there charge and thus there range shortens
> even more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, that is the same CMEC that was reported earlier this week.
NOTE that the contact for this company is the same Jerry Chen
that answered the email to the Ebay listing!
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/htm.php?nowmenuid=29
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:03 PM
To: evlist
Subject: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
Just as was POSTed this China company is making a Smart looking
knock-off with a nEV performance:
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/cp_detail.php?id=1993&nowmenuid=23&cpath=027
2:0275:0280:&catid=280
If one did buy it, would the owner's local DMV register it?
Could they drive it on U.S. streets?
...
What is next? Knock-off EV parts/components for sale?
www.evparts.cn ???
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Item 330033199453
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you checked your local landfill/recycling center
or whatever they call the rubbish disposal area in
your town? There are 2 or 3 available all the time
here. In the springtime there are lots whose only
problem is plugged carbs.
--- Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am looking to upgrade my sears mower that has a
> single etek running a hydro and a 42" deck.
>
> I found the following 24VDC mower PM motor as
> surplus center.
> http://tinyurl.com/gyt5s
>
> I was thinking two of those might run the deck
> better then the belt system that is currently in
> there. Shoudl I be able to reliably put them in
> series so I can run them off the same 48 volt pack
> as the drive?
>
> They hydromatic tranny is really dying so I was
> considering getting something like a go cart axle
> and hooking it to the two rear tires. Then I'd need
> a controller to run the etek hooked up to the rear
> but at least least it would be direct drive.
>
> I have been really looking for a rear/front ATV
> mower deck that has no ICE but haven't had any luck
> and a new one is far too much to just gut. It would
> however allow me to up the Etek to to just the deck
> and put together something to just carry me and
> batteries around in a more ideal fashion then a no
> room Craftsman Tractor. if anyone has any thoughts
> or ideas I'm really open to anything right now. My
> deck is going bad and my tranny is dead so I'm
> almost starting from scratch.
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is VERY hard to de-bunk billions of dollars worth of mis-info.
We can only publish the best info we have >with verifyable sources<
and let the readers decide who to believe.
But we will need to continue to point the *reporters* to our
solid info, so they stop repeating the nonsense from politically
biased or misinformed sources.
Power plant efficiency 25%? maybe first half of last century.
8% of power plant input reaches the battery?
Please read a verifyable well-to-wheels analysis.
And so on...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: yahoo answers: ev's
Sheesh. You'd think the group was fronting the ICE industry. Most of this
seems like misinformation...
-Ralph
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:19:48 -0500
"Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AnDR3SaGVHGiKBbpMpueJ27sy6IX?qi
d=20060926101918AAgwFcI
>
> I signed up for Yahoo answers the other day. I decided to probe the
> zeigeist on EV's. I thought the results were a bit disappointing, but
> was happy to see that no one says they are slow.
>
> --------------------------------------
> Question: What are the largest obstacles to the adoption of pure
> electric vehicles in the consumer market?
> -------------------------------------
> Thomas: Cost, design and in the long run, efficiency. Yes, the car may
> not produce any emissions but think about the energy source, which is
> still mainly fossil fuels burned in a factory.
>
> A gasoline car gets about 25% efficiency out of the gasoline it burns.
> A power plant may get roughly the same efficiency but then as the
> electricity is transported along power lines some of it is lost. By
> the time it reaches the car battery, it is only about at 8%
> efficiency. So, if both energy sources are coming from fossil fuels,
> which one is better?
> -------------------------------------
> SPONGEBOB: THE BATTERIES, AND POWER STATIONS, AND DISTANCE.
> -------------------------------------
> ekstreem8: price of the technology, the distance the car can go on a
> single charge, the price to insure such a vehicle, the fact that they
> would have to retrain the entire fire department on how to deal with
> car fires with batteries the size of a coffee table.
> -------------------------------------
> douglas z: They are not much more cost efficient than gas powered
> cars, after you consider everything. And distance is limited.
> -------------------------------------
> SigmundS of Yew: Batteries,
> with the advent of hydrogen cell batteries we may soon have a viable
> alternative to the big ole lead acid ones .. but the technology just
> isnt efficient enough yet. The cost of the power isn't cheep enough
> yet. would you pay 1.40 $ per mile ??
> -------------------------------------
> David W: Battery tech is about 10yrs behind were it should be. I think
> this is the limitation.
> -------------------------------------
> brian l: The cars ranges are too short and the recharging time is too
> long if you stayed in the city the car would be just fine. replacing
> bad batteries are very expensive and disposal of the old batteries is
> a problem as they are considered toxic waste. In cold climates the
> batteries lose a lot of there charge and thus there range shortens
> even more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So you not only lose a controller but in a DC system you would lose the
motor as well because it would blow up in a full power no load situation.
If your in gear you would not lose the motor but that puts you in a very
dangerous situation that could happen at anytime.
This is enough for me to alone to go with an AC drive motor. You can still
play around with different batteries and the rest of the vehicle if you get
bored.
Don
In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:57:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It's true, there would have to be a divine miracle to make a inverter
based AC system run away.
On 9/26/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have been told that if the AC controller fails the vehicle will not go
to
> maximum power as a DC system does. Is this not true?
>
> By the time you react it could be a very bad accident not a smoked
> controller that I would be worried about.
>
> Don
>
> In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:34:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Sort of. This can happen with DC, though modern controllers rarely
> suffer this problem, as there are ample safety interlocks. I'm not sure
> if this has ever happened to a Zilla. Otmar?
>
> Thing is, you can have the same sort of failure (shorted power module)
> in an AC system. Doesn't mean your controller doesn't smoke.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the
controller
> > fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it
> just
> > shuts down?
> >
> > AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC
motor.
> >
> > Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase.
> They
> > are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they would
> last
> > longer than DC as well because of this. Less starting amperage is also
> easier
> > on the batteries.
> >
> > All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in
the
> > last 10 years that I know of.
> >
> > Don
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Storm:
1 inch PVC conduits worked great for me.
The long radius bends work really well.
Heat gun can get you some odd bends.
You will have to soap up the cables for if you have a couple bends or a long
pull.
They have PVC to copper pipe couplings with rubber sleeves that seal nice
around the cable.
Yep, the fans work nice too. Remember that you have to let air in somewhere if
the boxes are sealed.
Without a doubt, the most practical, safe and useful item I have in my car is
the mid-pack switch.
It's a big 250 amp DC curcuit breaker I bought off Ebay for not much money -
can't remember exactly - like $50.00, I think.
And, yes, I actually found a DC rated two pole knife switch that I didn't use.
A little too rough and big. The blades pull up between an insulated slit.
Would hate to actually pull that thing under load. It would be like a
Frankenstein movie.
The 250 amp Heinneman (spelling?) breaker has a long delay before it trips.
It's seen 500 amps and some long loads and never tripped.
There are a lot of surplus DC Airpax breakers out there but some need to be
mounted vertically or they won't reset.
All my battery boxes are folded 16 guage steel and epoxy coated.
I drilled holes in the front boxes that I thought might somehow see water.
I wipe my batteries down.
The mid-pack switch helps a lot with that.
Good luck with your project.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I painted the 86 Suzuki Samurai yesterday which marks
> the turning point. I'm nearing the point where I can
> stop repairing and restoring an old car and start
> building an electric. I'd like to run several ideas by
> you folks with some experience before I do something
> dumb.
>
> I have 5 battery boxes made of 1/16" sheet steel
> installed under the floor of the cabin. One holds 4
> batteries, one holds one battery and 3 hold 2
> batteries each. (That should cure the tipiness!) The
> plan is to connect them with 1" PVC conduit since some
> of the wire will be inside the cabin and the rest
> exposed beneath the car.
>
> I located some computer slot 45 CFM squirrel cage fans
> which would seem to be ideal as exhaust fans while
> charging. One on each box venting under the car.
>
> I would like a manual disconnect for the battery pack.
> The two thoughts are a breaker or a way of pulling the
> fuse out of the fuseholder. Some seem to feel that the
> breaker is not a great idea (and they are expensive.)
> I have not been able to locate a fuseholder, and am
> wondering if it would create a connection problem-
> like extra resistance, heating or whatever. Perhaps
> there is a manual switch that will handle the
> amperage? I don't anticipate engaging or disengaging
> it under load unless there is an emergency. How big
> would a knife switch have to be to carry the 400 amps?
>
>
> After seeing the battery boxes in the car, I'm
> thinking I had better drill some drain holes in them.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave, we have an old web site, it was a free be and has it band with used up,
and im not going to spring for paying for a nother one. We still get hits and
calls and mails from this one. http://electricblue14.tripod.com , I read the
post, and dont have anything to add, seems to keep running the same thing over
and over and over again
us in Kansas LOL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar is out of town so I'll jump in and answer this for him-
There has never been a full-on failure of a Zilla.
Also, if such an unlikely failure should occur, the Hairball (brains of the
Zilla) will send out a signal to automatically open the Contactor.
Richard Rau
Northwest Electric Vehicles
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
Sort of. This can happen with DC, though modern controllers rarely
suffer this problem, as there are ample safety interlocks. I'm not sure
if this has ever happened to a Zilla. Otmar?
Thing is, you can have the same sort of failure (shorted power module)
in an AC system. Doesn't mean your controller doesn't smoke.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the controller
> fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it
just
> shuts down?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The way I understand it is sometimes the silicon switching devices
(MOSFET or IGBT) can fail in the conductive state. This does not mean
they always fail in this state. In a DC system with a Zilla the Zilla
controls the main solenoid so IF this were to happen for what ever
reason the Zilla should open the main contactor and dis-allow it to
energize again. On a DC system that does not watch for shorted silicon
you have to rely on your main contactor to open under load and this
system may allow you to re-energize your contactor which would allow
power to the motor. Again this is if the silicon fails in the ON state.
With AC your shorted silicon kills the AC timing and usually results in
smoke or a rotor that acts like a brake, I don't see how it could lock
the rotor unless it was a BLDC and an energized motor field had enough
power hold the magnet in the rotor from turning.
Nate
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
I have been told that if the AC controller fails the vehicle will not
go to maximum power as a DC system does. Is this not true?
By the time you react it could be a very bad accident not a smoked
controller that I would be worried about.
Don
In a message dated 9/26/2006 2:34:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sort of. This can happen with DC, though modern controllers rarely
suffer this problem, as there are ample safety interlocks. I'm not
sure if this has ever happened to a Zilla. Otmar?
Thing is, you can have the same sort of failure (shorted power module)
in an AC system. Doesn't mean your controller doesn't smoke.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the
> controller fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this
> happens in AC it
just
> shuts down?
>
> AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC
motor.
>
> Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single
phase.
They
> are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they
> would
last
> longer than DC as well because of this. Less starting amperage is
> also
easier
> on the batteries.
>
> All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in
> the last 10 years that I know of.
>
> Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got a bright idea and contacted Smart USA,
they will pass this infringement on to Mercedes.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
Yep, that is the same CMEC that was reported earlier this week.
NOTE that the contact for this company is the same Jerry Chen
that answered the email to the Ebay listing!
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/htm.php?nowmenuid=29
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:03 PM
To: evlist
Subject: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
Just as was POSTed this China company is making a Smart looking
knock-off with a nEV performance:
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/cp_detail.php?id=1993&nowmenuid=23&cpath=027
2:0275:0280:&catid=280
If one did buy it, would the owner's local DMV register it?
Could they drive it on U.S. streets?
...
What is next? Knock-off EV parts/components for sale?
www.evparts.cn ???
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:39 PM 26/09/06 -0400, Don wrote:
I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the controller
fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it just
shuts down?
A properly designed DC controller like a Zilla, is supposed to shut down on
fault. Curtis controllers and their kin can short their power stage and it
is up to the operator to drop off the contactors to remove power. AC
systems if they fully short a power stage and put DC on the rotor attempts
to lock the rotor, but only 1 of the 6 transistors in the bridge shorting
will (if designed right) cause the drive to shut down safely. Both AC and
DC could develop a system fault that results in the controller "thinking"
you have just floored the accelerator, and responding to that.
But, that said AC systems are "safer" if you are buying the 10-year
warranty on a Siemens, as the reliability is (should be) there. A Curtis is
"not so safe" as you need to add your own safety systems. A Zilla has many
of the safety attributes of an AC system, but the risk of runaway is higher
with a Zilla than with a siemens AC system, as a Zilla system is spect by
hobbyists, where a Siemens system is a package designed by engineering teams.
To get a Zilla to runaway would require the power stage to fault AND the
traction contactor/s to weld shut. Since the Zilla tests the B+ traction
contactor each power-up and self tests itself a lot, it is an unlikely
scenario.
AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC motor.
For a given power rating AC motors are generating half the torque and rev
twice as hard to develop the same horsepower.
Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase.
They
are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they would last
longer than DC as well because of this.
3-phase motors spread the load around 3 phases to draw less current, but
the same size/same load motors DOL started will draw a similar amount of
power. DC motors burn up for the same reason as AC motors - too much
amperage for too long. How long do DC motors last? I have a late 1950s (as
near as I can tell) motor that will be in my truck soon. I wouldn't think
of putting an AC motor of that age in a vehicle (but not due to its age,
due to design and engineering reasons)
Less starting amperage is also easier
on the batteries.
Less starting amperage is an irrelevant comment, since most AC systems use
high voltage, with lower battery Ah, (i.e. the current may be 3x less, but
the cells are 3x smaller so the stress is the same). For a given horsepower
being delivered, if a vehicle and battery pack are the same mass, the
stress on the cells will be equal
All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in the
last 10 years that I know of.
Because AC is "Sexy" technology, but I think you are wrong in that Phillipe
(IIRC) commented that some French manufactured cars (probably by percentage
of production EVs more than half of those made recently) use sep-ex DC
systems, from a manufacturer that produces reliable, safe. proven controllers.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
