EV Digest 5922
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charging AGMs for Max life
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AC vs DC?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Switch protection
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Switch protection
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: AC vs DC?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT - E-Mail Threads - was: RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 1/0 and 2/0 cable
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Tesla Yahoo News Story
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Tesla Yahoo News Story
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC vs DC?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Join In! WAS : AC vs DC?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AC vs DC?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) yahoo answers: ev's
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water said:
I intend to have 3 indicators in the dashboard, isolated from
the pack through opto-couplers in the balancers:
- Red: Low voltage warning.
- Yellow: One or more batteries at max charge voltage.
- Green: All batteries are at max charge voltage.
The green indicator is the "end of charge" signal.
My fear is that the circuit will become too complex, so
it will not be used or easy to build as my current design
which is optimised in minimum component count.
I've published some very simple circuits to do this on the EV list in
the past. Your voltage sensors can be as simple as an optocoupler,
zener, and resistor. Four isolated wires from each of these modules to
your dashboard should be enough (Red, Yellow, Green, and common). The
Red and Yellow wires go to optocouplers that are normally off; when any
one turns on, you light your dashboard warning indicator. The Green wire
goes to optocouplers that are normally on; they *all* have to turn off
for the Green wire to go high, and turn your charger off.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Trefry wrote:
Is there a kind where I can engineer a stable reliable efficient car
that I can drive around AND allow for tinkering with it?
Let's compare it to regular ICE cars. If you're the sort of person that
likes tinkering with cars, then an older car (1960's or earlier) is a
good choice. No computers or secret black boxes. You can take almost
anything apart, and put it back together again. If you have the manuals,
it will even work afterward! :-)
If you're the sort of person that just wants to buy a car and drive it,
then a newer car (1990's and newer) is a better choice. It's more
reliable, works better, and you can take it to the dealer for repairs.
But, you can't fix it yourself!
I like the idea of regen. Can't you do that with a DC motor by adding
on a generator?
Of course! The only reason regen is less common on DC systems is because
most builders buy based on minimum cost, and so pick motors and
controllers without regen. You can spend a little more and get regen. Or
retrofit it to a cheaper setup, by using a separate DC generator and
controller.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
I can recall using capacitors across switches to limit
arcing on disconnect. Now I am seeing several posts
that suggest using diodes and even zener diodes across
switches to remove back emf surges on opening (and
closing?) switches. Where can I get info on this? I am
wondering how to determine what switches need the
protection and how to determine the values for the
components used.
There is a long and rich history of arc suppression techniques on
switches (and by extension, it applies to transistors as well). The
exact circuit and components used depends on the type of load.
Fundamentally, the arc suppression network's job is to shape the voltage
and current waveform to give the switch time to complete its transition
between "off" and "on".
Every type of load requires a different network. What load are you
switching, and what kind of switching device are you using?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
Got it. Thanks. How do I select the proper diode for a
particular application?
Use a diode:
- for an inductive load (motor, relay or contactor coil, etc.)
- the energy stored in the inductor is mostly dissipated in the
load itself
- when you don't care how long it takes for the load to turn off
- when the diode can be sized big enough to absorb *all* of the
load's stored energy.
- the diode's current rating has to match the load current rating
- the diode's voltage rating has to be greater than the supply voltage
Use a zener:
- for inductive or resistive loads
- inductive energy dissipation is split between the zener and load
- for DC loads, a diode must also be in series
- for AC loads, use two zeners back-to-back in series
- the zener's higher voltage drop speeds load turn-off
- the zener's voltage rating should be about 2x the supply voltage
- the zener's current rating should be greater than the load current
- not good for loads that store a lot of energy
Use a resistor:
- for a highly inductive or capacitive load
- inductive energy stored in the load will mostly be dissipated
in the resistor, and the rest in the load
- the load will turn off faster
- the resistor uses power whenever the load is on, according to the
ratio of its resistance compared to the load resistance
- for a capacitive load, the resistor discharges it back to zero
- for an inductive load, the resistor allows a considerable increase
in turnoff speed
- the resistor is usually 4x or so the load's resistance, and 1/4th
its power rating
Use a resistor and diode in series:
- same as resistor, but eliminates the continuous power consumption
Use a capacitor:
- for loads with both resistive and inductive components
- when high turn-ON current is not a problem
- can achieve very fast turn-off and very low energy loss
- when you don't want to dissipate any energy in the protection device
- capacitor needs to be carefully matched to the R and L of the load
so it is critically damped
Use a resistor and capacitor in series (RC snubber):
- for inductive components
- the R is added to reduce turn-ON current, or because the load
doesn't have enough resistance by itself to be critically
damped
- widely used for AC loads, because values are very non-critical
(0.1uf and 100 ohms are common)
Use an R and C in series, plus a diode across the resistor (RCD snubber)
- for inductive or resistive loads
- used for DC loads
- more complex to design, but very versatile; can minimize turn-off
time, turn-ON current, and power consumption
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andrew Roberts wrote:
All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless DC. All
the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and power
density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that will change
with demand.
"Brushless DC" is the same thing as "Synchronous AC".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's odd -- I'd have thought OL03 would support this sort of thing.
Grigg. John wrote:
Test works. These all come back as separate conversations, even Mike's
silly reply. --- John
Eric, I have always used Conversation sorting. I just replied with this
e-mail using the old thread to test it. -- John
Eric Said:
I'm using Thunderbird 2.0a1. In OL03, If you turn on a threaded view
(View --> Arrange By --> Conversation), you'll likely see what I'm
speaking of.
It's not a problem with the email client -- it's a problem with how it's
used.If you click "reply" on a message, then you _are replying_ to that
message as far as your email client (and others) are concerned. When
using the reply button, the outgoing message actually has a
"In-Reply-To: <unique message id>" header added to it so that it is
linked to the original message. In email clients that have threaded (or
"conversation") view turned on, this shows messages _and their replies_
as a tree view of messages and their responses.
In practice, this means that someone's new thread "barges into" an
existing thread, and also (in my case) I often don't even see some
ongoing threads because they're "buried" in an existing thread that I
don't care about.
Almost all email clients have a "flat" message view turned on by default
when first installed, which simply shows messages as a flat list with no
regard to their threaded links.
I find it odd that it is immediately assumed it's a bug in the mail
client, rather than considering that a "reply" is exactly that.
Grigg. John wrote:
Eric, what e-mail client are you using? The problem you describe does
not affect Outlook 2003...
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
Mike, what does this have to do with suppression diodes?
Please make a new message for new topics rather than replying to
existing threads. Hitting reply links your reply to the message you
clicked on, and it appears in the "Switch protection" thread.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think any of the external GPS units have an on board compass.
Think about it.
An external unit (serial or usb) can be oriented in ANY direction
relative to the base unit (laptop, pda, whatever), so any compass
readings would be wrong.
However, pretty much all GPS software can determine the direction (and
speed) of movement simply by comparing the current position with the
previous.
Having said that, some all-in-one GPS units may indeed have an
electronic compass built in, which would be useful when hiking through
GPS-unfriendly terrain like heavy forest or a narrow ravines, or when
the device is first turned on before it gets a satellite lock.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 September 2006 12:45 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
>
>
> Jukka,
>
> Can you recommend any good GPS chips/devices that are
> serial/USB capable
> that also have an on-board compass? And (preferrably) for cheap?
>
> -- Eric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is 1/0 recomended for EV's or 2/0?
example 156 Volts and max 600 Amps, constant 200 Amps or 100 depending on
one's mood.
The car has been using 1/0 for 1 year from the first installer. I'm
deciding whether to start changing a few at a time to 2/0 or stick with 1/0
all around.
Roland's numbers are very helpful.
Ugly's DC resistance is
.0122 ohm / 100 ft for 1/0 and
.00967 ohm / 100 ft for 2/0 both at 167 degree F
for my need at 200 Amps,
0.8 V drop with 2/0 and
1.2 V drop with 1/0 cable
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No. That's the issue. While there are some BLDC, PMDC, PMAC synchronous
(or whatever you want to call it) systems available, none of them are
available to non-millionaires.
As my note stated it was within the context of: "comparing the currently
available hobbyists AC and DC systems"
Are there any brushless DC systems available today for hobbyist EVs that
don't cost $30k?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
Sent: September 26, 2006 9:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: AC vs DC?
All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless DC. All
the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and power
density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that will change
with demand.
Since this does not seem like the typical AC vs DC debate, I thought I would
weigh in. One thing to note though: we are not really comparing "purely"
AC to DC motors, but comparing the currently available hobbyists AC and DC
systems. So here is my pro and con list based on what we can readily
purchase today:
AC
- regen
- can use higher voltages - smaller wires, but more batteries and more
connections
- wider power band
- can hold on hills without causing brush burnout
- somewhat more expensive
- Siemens, MES and Solectria are all AC systems
DC
- most powerful available to hobbyists (current leader in drag racing cars)
- can get higher power systems cheaper
- entry level is inexpensive on a weight & power basis
- lower voltage means less batteries and connections, but bigger wires,
fuses, contactors and breakers
- huge torque off the get go
- Warp and ADC are DC motors
- ADC and Zilla are controllers
Then there is looking at manufacturers:
Siemens AC motor/controllers
- OEM quality, water proof, well built, made for automotive applications
- liquid cooled
- programmable
- easy to set up
Zilla Controllers
- made for EVs
- programmable
- can drive dual motors for electronic transmission
- very powerful
- liquid cooled
Warp/ADC Motors
- the "standard" dc motor
- air cooled
- fork list motor used successfully in many, many EVs
Hmm, well that should get a few replies!
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Trefry
Sent: September 25, 2006 5:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AC vs DC?
Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who emailed me
personally.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this, although
I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I want to
understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific technology.
>From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient
>than
DC in an EV.
Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
expensive? Are there other limitations?
It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this talk I'm
seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
cost/performance battery solution is.
Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to get up to
at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
seconds car would drive me insane.
Suggestions anyone?
Thanks,
Mike (the new guy)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to TI, that's not necessarily true anymore. FOC and FWC control
leads to better efficiency everywhere on the curve.
Brushless DC is an AC system, usually the term refers to permanent
magnet rotor AC system. It is not nescesarily more efficient than an
induction AC system. At peak power it's usually more efficient but at
partial load it's less efficient due to the inability to control the
field strength (permanent magnet) which leads to excessive iron
losses. The permanent magnet rotor can be made lighter than a
induction rotor though.
On 9/26/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As my note stated it was within the context of: "comparing the currently
> available hobbyists AC and DC systems"
>
> Are there any brushless DC systems available today for hobbyist EVs that
> don't cost $30k?
>
> Don
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
> Sent: September 26, 2006 9:59 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: AC vs DC?
>
> All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless DC.
All
> the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and power
> density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that will
change
> with demand.
>
>
> Since this does not seem like the typical AC vs DC debate, I thought I
would
> weigh in. One thing to note though: we are not really comparing "purely"
> AC to DC motors, but comparing the currently available hobbyists AC and DC
> systems. So here is my pro and con list based on what we can readily
> purchase today:
>
> AC
> - regen
> - can use higher voltages - smaller wires, but more batteries and more
> connections
> - wider power band
> - can hold on hills without causing brush burnout
> - somewhat more expensive
> - Siemens, MES and Solectria are all AC systems
>
>
> DC
> - most powerful available to hobbyists (current leader in drag racing
cars)
> - can get higher power systems cheaper
> - entry level is inexpensive on a weight & power basis
> - lower voltage means less batteries and connections, but bigger wires,
> fuses, contactors and breakers
> - huge torque off the get go
> - Warp and ADC are DC motors
> - ADC and Zilla are controllers
>
>
> Then there is looking at manufacturers:
>
> Siemens AC motor/controllers
> - OEM quality, water proof, well built, made for automotive applications
> - liquid cooled
> - programmable
> - easy to set up
>
>
> Zilla Controllers
> - made for EVs
> - programmable
> - can drive dual motors for electronic transmission
> - very powerful
> - liquid cooled
>
> Warp/ADC Motors
> - the "standard" dc motor
> - air cooled
> - fork list motor used successfully in many, many EVs
>
>
> Hmm, well that should get a few replies!
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michael Trefry
> Sent: September 25, 2006 5:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: AC vs DC?
>
> Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who emailed me
> personally.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this,
although
> I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
>
> I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I want
to
> understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific technology.
>
>
> >From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient
> >than
> DC in an EV.
>
> Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
> expensive? Are there other limitations?
>
> It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this talk I'm
> seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
> cost/performance battery solution is.
>
> Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to get up
to
> at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
> seconds car would drive me insane.
>
> Suggestions anyone?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike (the new guy)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?&vid=c860df3ccf66c83fb61bb2ffd934330b.889183&cache=1>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOW
0-60 in 4 secs
looks HOOOOTTT
ouch, 100k dollars
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:03 PM
Subject: Tesla Yahoo News Story
<http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?&vid=c860df3ccf66c83fb61bb2ffd934330b.889183&cache=1>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If this ultracaps do what they claim, wouldn't it be a lot simpler to
simply have a large but separate accessory pack. I mean, you've
already saved so much weight, and got so much more power to move the
accessory pack weight, why not?
-If what they say is true.
Mike
On 9/15/06, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
Even if this ultracap becomes commercially available at the sort of
costs that have been predicted, there will still be the cost associated
with a DC/DC that can accept perhaps 1000-3500V in and deliver a useful
voltage and current output. The press release states that a 17kWh pack
could be recharged in 4-6min; at the 6min rate, this means the pack can
accept charge at a rate of 170kW, and if we assume it can therefore
deliver it at a similar rate, then the DC/DC would need to be capable of
something like 560A at 300VDC output.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Agreed, but you still can't get away from the fact that you have a
fixed field strength in a PM motor and so you end up with constant
ironlosses.
On 9/26/06, Andrew Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks to TI, that's not necessarily true anymore. FOC and FWC control
leads to better efficiency everywhere on the curve.
Brushless DC is an AC system, usually the term refers to permanent
magnet rotor AC system. It is not nescesarily more efficient than an
induction AC system. At peak power it's usually more efficient but at
partial load it's less efficient due to the inability to control the
field strength (permanent magnet) which leads to excessive iron
losses. The permanent magnet rotor can be made lighter than a
induction rotor though.
On 9/26/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As my note stated it was within the context of: "comparing the currently
> available hobbyists AC and DC systems"
>
> Are there any brushless DC systems available today for hobbyist EVs that
> don't cost $30k?
>
> Don
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
> Sent: September 26, 2006 9:59 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: AC vs DC?
>
> All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless DC.
All
> the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and power
> density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that will
change
> with demand.
>
>
> Since this does not seem like the typical AC vs DC debate, I thought I
would
> weigh in. One thing to note though: we are not really comparing "purely"
> AC to DC motors, but comparing the currently available hobbyists AC and DC
> systems. So here is my pro and con list based on what we can readily
> purchase today:
>
> AC
> - regen
> - can use higher voltages - smaller wires, but more batteries and more
> connections
> - wider power band
> - can hold on hills without causing brush burnout
> - somewhat more expensive
> - Siemens, MES and Solectria are all AC systems
>
>
> DC
> - most powerful available to hobbyists (current leader in drag racing
cars)
> - can get higher power systems cheaper
> - entry level is inexpensive on a weight & power basis
> - lower voltage means less batteries and connections, but bigger wires,
> fuses, contactors and breakers
> - huge torque off the get go
> - Warp and ADC are DC motors
> - ADC and Zilla are controllers
>
>
> Then there is looking at manufacturers:
>
> Siemens AC motor/controllers
> - OEM quality, water proof, well built, made for automotive applications
> - liquid cooled
> - programmable
> - easy to set up
>
>
> Zilla Controllers
> - made for EVs
> - programmable
> - can drive dual motors for electronic transmission
> - very powerful
> - liquid cooled
>
> Warp/ADC Motors
> - the "standard" dc motor
> - air cooled
> - fork list motor used successfully in many, many EVs
>
>
> Hmm, well that should get a few replies!
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michael Trefry
> Sent: September 25, 2006 5:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: AC vs DC?
>
> Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who emailed me
> personally.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this,
although
> I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
>
> I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I want
to
> understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific technology.
>
>
> >From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient
> >than
> DC in an EV.
>
> Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
> expensive? Are there other limitations?
>
> It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this talk I'm
> seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
> cost/performance battery solution is.
>
> Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to get up
to
> at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
> seconds car would drive me insane.
>
> Suggestions anyone?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike (the new guy)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:05 AM
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
> > See I told you I know next to nothing.
> >
> > So these DC 9s are not 9v, but 9 What? Amps? Inches?
> > Hi EVerybody, especially you newbees;
Mike , you didn't say WHERE you are? If you are neer a EAA(Electric
Auto Assoc.) chapter, might be one right in YOUR 'hood! If so, check them
out on the Web, go over to a meeting, if you're lucky you will get to meet a
few cars, driven in by their loving owners. THEN you can go crazy with the
queations, and EVen get to take a spin in an EV for your First EV Grin!"EV
Grin" is part of our language here. You will get/ have it, especially if you
are in Portland OR and get a ride in John Wayland's White Zombie, race car
0-105MPH in the quarter. You WILL have an EV grin, especially when he blew
away a Corvette at the light!
All kidding aside, the List, we're here to help and have a fun time. Get
out to the EVents, say hello and join in in a fun society.
> My two watts worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard there is a safety factory in the AC vs DC. If the controller
fails on a DC you have a full power situation? If this happens in AC it just
shuts down?
AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM of a DC motor.
Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase. They
are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume they would last
longer than DC as well because of this. Less starting amperage is also easier
on the batteries.
All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors in the
last 10 years that I know of.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
and again
120034842609
I reported the listing and put a link to the website below
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
I emailed the company and received a reply. I have posted this at:
http://www.electricsmart.com/knockoff.htm
Interesting to say the least. I'll keep everyone updated.
Pedroman
----- Original Message -----
From: "MARK DUTKO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
There is a link at the bottom of the item to report the item- Ihave
reported him several times, I guess ebay does not care.
On Sep 25, 2006, at 11:03 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
Something really isn't right here!
I found out after trying to contact the seller of earlier ebay add
that lhscheer91 the seller has disappeared now there is another name
that comes up ... I think he had hijacked the account and got caught!
he has now migrated to the other id(probably also hijacked!)jayreal50
(0) the same ID who bid on the earlier add and I'd bet the first
few(or maby all) bids on these new adds were from other hijacked
accounts of his... imagine buying a car for 7000 that you can't look
at and the seller has 0 rating! and he never reply's to the questions
through ebay! He has taken his photo's from a chinese web page. he
fudges his discription and again gives no vin number. he also doubles
his adds and he want's to be paid by certified check or money order.
I hope no one has gotten caught up in the bs from this guy. Yikes!
Does anybody know what those knockoff smart cars sell for from that
chinese company? he is obviously fishing trying to put together a
realistic add that won't be realized(notice his "adjustments")
T
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Now we know where the images were taken. All the e-bay photos are on
their website. Why would they advertise the car in Kansas, unless
they import them 1 at a time under personal exemption and are trying
to sell them individually. Of course this country wouldn't be
friendly to them flooding our streets with cheap efficient vehicles.
If they don't cost $1million to build our big manufacturers think
they shouldn't be on the street. I hope that if someone looks at
this
car in Kansas they can get a feel if the marketing tactic is legit.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:10 am
Subject: Re: If you liked the "Strange EV on eBay" thread...
To: [email protected]
Well then, you might wet yourself here:
www.cmec-sz.com
Nice to see the GM Electric Car in production
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
--- Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
you'll love these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=120034842609
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=120034844199
(or http://tinyurl.com/qzdff and http://tinyurl.com/q7fcr)
Check out the "new" images. Enough said.
Cheers,
Claudio
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh no doubt, it's just that it hasn't become a limiting factor yet. PM's
are still more efficient and more powerful. With the cost of rare earth
continuing to decrease while copper increases, we may even see the day when
PM's are cheaper..
Agreed, but you still can't get away from the fact that you have a
fixed field strength in a PM motor and so you end up with constant
ironlosses.
On 9/26/06, Andrew Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks to TI, that's not necessarily true anymore. FOC and FWC control
> leads to better efficiency everywhere on the curve.
>
>
>
>
> Brushless DC is an AC system, usually the term refers to permanent
> magnet rotor AC system. It is not nescesarily more efficient than an
> induction AC system. At peak power it's usually more efficient but at
> partial load it's less efficient due to the inability to control the
> field strength (permanent magnet) which leads to excessive iron
> losses. The permanent magnet rotor can be made lighter than a
> induction rotor though.
>
>
>
> On 9/26/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > As my note stated it was within the context of: "comparing the
currently
> > available hobbyists AC and DC systems"
> >
> > Are there any brushless DC systems available today for hobbyist EVs that
> > don't cost $30k?
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
> > Sent: September 26, 2006 9:59 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: AC vs DC?
> >
> > All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless DC.
> All
> > the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and
power
> > density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that will
> change
> > with demand.
> >
> >
> > Since this does not seem like the typical AC vs DC debate, I thought I
> would
> > weigh in. One thing to note though: we are not really comparing
"purely"
> > AC to DC motors, but comparing the currently available hobbyists AC and
DC
> > systems. So here is my pro and con list based on what we can readily
> > purchase today:
> >
> > AC
> > - regen
> > - can use higher voltages - smaller wires, but more batteries and more
> > connections
> > - wider power band
> > - can hold on hills without causing brush burnout
> > - somewhat more expensive
> > - Siemens, MES and Solectria are all AC systems
> >
> >
> > DC
> > - most powerful available to hobbyists (current leader in drag racing
> cars)
> > - can get higher power systems cheaper
> > - entry level is inexpensive on a weight & power basis
> > - lower voltage means less batteries and connections, but bigger wires,
> > fuses, contactors and breakers
> > - huge torque off the get go
> > - Warp and ADC are DC motors
> > - ADC and Zilla are controllers
> >
> >
> > Then there is looking at manufacturers:
> >
> > Siemens AC motor/controllers
> > - OEM quality, water proof, well built, made for automotive applications
> > - liquid cooled
> > - programmable
> > - easy to set up
> >
> >
> > Zilla Controllers
> > - made for EVs
> > - programmable
> > - can drive dual motors for electronic transmission
> > - very powerful
> > - liquid cooled
> >
> > Warp/ADC Motors
> > - the "standard" dc motor
> > - air cooled
> > - fork list motor used successfully in many, many EVs
> >
> >
> > Hmm, well that should get a few replies!
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Michael Trefry
> > Sent: September 25, 2006 5:46 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: AC vs DC?
> >
> > Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who emailed
me
> > personally.
> >
> > I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this,
> although
> > I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
> >
> > I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I want
> to
> > understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific
technology.
> >
> >
> > >From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient
> > >than
> > DC in an EV.
> >
> > Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
> > expensive? Are there other limitations?
> >
> > It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this talk
I'm
> > seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
> > cost/performance battery solution is.
> >
> > Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to get up
> to
> > at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
> > seconds car would drive me insane.
> >
> > Suggestions anyone?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike (the new guy)
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW Pedroman...
this vehicle with variants will maybe start showing up in various
places under diff. names. I expect this CMEC co. is a recent
acquisition. See it's other products as TMC Machinery here:
http://tmc9.manufacturer.globalsources.com/
See also the "City Angel" from Tongsheng Innovation, here:
http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11087627/Electric_Car.html
Point is only that, like the NA auto industry, much of the part mfgring
is farmed out... And the parts folks will sell to anyone. I'm guessing
these assemblers work like the Chinese scooter makers.
Think City of Yong Kang, population over 500,000 persons, with over 300
companies all making parts and assembling the same basic few models of
scooters. Yong Kang is the largest center for the manufacture of
battery electric vehicles in the world AFAIK.
When they're not assembling scoots, they go back to hammering out
cooking pots or making wire brushes.
With the scooters, components are basically spec'ed by the middle
people who actually buy the containers full and import them, designed
to a price point I think.
Maybe you're just a smart fan, but if you're interested in the Chinese
electric product, why not go for luxury:
http://tinyurl.com/es34u
:)
This one's kinda fun too:
http://tinyurl.com/zqv22
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Sorry, try again
>
> Pedroman
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:49 PM
> Subject: RE: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
>
>
> > Dead Link...
> >
> > Pedroman:
> > I emailed the company and received a reply. I have posted this at:
> > http://www.electricsmart.com/knockoff.htm
> > Interesting to say the least. I'll keep everyone updated.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AnDR3SaGVHGiKBbpMpueJ27sy6IX?qid=20060926101918AAgwFcI
I signed up for Yahoo answers the other day. I decided to probe the
zeigeist on EV's. I thought the results were a bit disappointing, but
was happy to see that no one says they are slow.
--------------------------------------
Question: What are the largest obstacles to the adoption of pure
electric vehicles in the consumer market?
-------------------------------------
Thomas: Cost, design and in the long run, efficiency. Yes, the car may
not produce any emissions but think about the energy source, which is
still mainly fossil fuels burned in a factory.
A gasoline car gets about 25% efficiency out of the gasoline it burns.
A power plant may get roughly the same efficiency but then as the
electricity is transported along power lines some of it is lost. By
the time it reaches the car battery, it is only about at 8%
efficiency. So, if both energy sources are coming from fossil fuels,
which one is better?
-------------------------------------
SPONGEBOB: THE BATTERIES, AND POWER STATIONS, AND DISTANCE.
-------------------------------------
ekstreem8: price of the technology, the distance the car can go on a
single charge, the price to insure such a vehicle, the fact that they
would have to retrain the entire fire department on how to deal with
car fires with batteries the size of a coffee table.
-------------------------------------
douglas z: They are not much more cost efficient than gas powered
cars, after you consider everything. And distance is limited.
-------------------------------------
SigmundS of Yew: Batteries,
with the advent of hydrogen cell batteries we may soon have a viable
alternative to the big ole lead acid ones .. but the technology just
isnt efficient enough yet. The cost of the power isn't cheep enough
yet. would you pay 1.40 $ per mile ??
-------------------------------------
David W: Battery tech is about 10yrs behind were it should be. I think
this is the limitation.
-------------------------------------
brian l: The cars ranges are too short and the recharging time is too
long if you stayed in the city the car would be just fine. replacing
bad batteries are very expensive and disposal of the old batteries is
a problem as they are considered toxic waste. In cold climates the
batteries lose a lot of there charge and thus there range shortens
even more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would expect the external unit would have an arrow printed on it to
point forward, but your point is well taken.
Mark Fowler wrote:
I don't think any of the external GPS units have an on board compass.
Think about it.
An external unit (serial or usb) can be oriented in ANY direction
relative to the base unit (laptop, pda, whatever), so any compass
readings would be wrong.
However, pretty much all GPS software can determine the direction (and
speed) of movement simply by comparing the current position with the
previous.
Having said that, some all-in-one GPS units may indeed have an
electronic compass built in, which would be useful when hiking through
GPS-unfriendly terrain like heavy forest or a narrow ravines, or when
the device is first turned on before it gets a satellite lock.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Wednesday, 27 September 2006 12:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
Jukka,
Can you recommend any good GPS chips/devices that are
serial/USB capable
that also have an on-board compass? And (preferrably) for cheap?
-- Eric
--- End Message ---
