EV Digest 5927
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AC vs DC?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: ZEV Cushman
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC vs DC?
by Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 2007 Battery Beach Burnout and 6th EVer Conference Announcement - Save the
date
by "Shawn Waggoner \(EV List\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Short and blunt
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Installation questions
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Window comparator for BMS
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EAA Chapter Presidnts to Cross Paths - SVEAA
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Did someone say cheap EV!! Re: Cheapest not most efficient ev
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Did someone say cheap EV!! Re: Cheapest not most efficient ev
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: 'Strange EV on eBay' round 2)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AC vs DC?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Parts worth salvaging?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Parts worth salvaging?
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Charging Woes
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Window comparator for BMS
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Like many of his countrymen similarly accused, he'll
> vanish into the shadows of Beijing's alleyways.
> His company will simply cease to exist - for now.
We *are* tapping about the same company, right?
"Established in 1978 as the first national corporation integrating
foreign trade with industry, China National Machinery & Equipment
Import & Export Corporation (CMEC) deals principally in contracting
international engineering projects, exporting complete plants and
equipment, importing and exporting mechanical and electrical products
and engaging in external economic and technical cooperation. Its
turnover in 2004 reached US$1.7 billion."
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let's look at the last opinion expressed by Mr. Hart. Why would one think that
GM, Toyota, Ford, Azure, ISE, etc would NOT use experts on EV design for their
EV and HEV products which use AC motors? I believe these companies have some
of the brightest minds in the world designing and engineering these modern
electric drive systems.
Also, the vast numbers of commercially successful EVs (fork lifts, buses,
trains, etc) which are DC owe the vast numbers to the fact they have been
around for decades, if not a centruy. Most, if not all, that are currently
being produced are either looking at AC drives or offering vehicles using AC
drives. Since the advent of economic and reliable power electronic devices and
information processors, the shift from DC to AC motor systems has been
noticeable, industry wide.
Don't get me wrong, I love the DC commutator motor. What a great machine. I
also respect the AC systems a great deal.
Jeff
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> It's true, there would have to be a divine miracle to make a inverter
> based AC system run away.
It's not quite *that* unlikely! It takes a lazy design engineer, or a
software bug, computer crash, stuck accellerator pedal, etc. These tend
to be less likely in AC systems because they cost so much that more time
gets spent thinking about such errors, and putting in backup systems to
prevent them.
In contrast, most DC systems are designed for lowest cost. They've been
around for so long that design engineers get careless and make dumb
mistakes. Or, they get thrown together by hobbyists that don't think
about failure modes.
Done right, neither AC nor DC have problems with runaways. Done wrong,
they *both* do!
>> AC motors are lighter and able handle about double the RPM
>> of a DC motor.
This only depends on the design criteria when you built the motor. There
are DC motors that run well over 10,000 rpm; and AC motors that would
fly to pieces at even half that.
The maximum power-to-weight ratio of a motor occurs at max torque and
max rpm. It's about the same for both AC and DC motors, and is most
likely set by thermal issues (how LONG can you get that much power
before something melts).
As a rule, motor torque is limited by current, which is in turn limited
by wire size. The same limits apply for either AC or DC.
And motor rpm is limited by the mechanical strength of the rotor. For
high rpm, you don't use weaker aluminum windings (like cheap induction
motors) or long skinny copper commutator bars held only by glue (like
cheap DC motors).
>> Three phase AC motors take less starting amperage then a single phase.
>> They are known to last longer than single phase AC I would assume
>> they would last longer than DC as well because of this.
All DC motors are by nature polyphase (often a lot more than 3).
The starting current of a DC motor is determined by its field design.
Actually, the same is true for AC motors.
>> All manufacturers of full speed production vehicles used AC motors
>> in the last 10 years that I know of.
True. However, these folks are hardly experts on EV design. The vast
numbers of commercially successful EVs (fork lifts, buses, trains, etc.)
are DC.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, look at all the questions Mark's gotten on that auction - and not a one
asks about a generator on the wheel.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kert, thanks, excellent links for a non-electrical type like me who
doesn't understand the principle behind some of the less common
arrangements.
Geoff
-------------------------------------
A couple nice presentations giving a good overview of all that
fundamentals
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2006/doc/presentations/Americas/AZ111.pdf
FOC or field oriented control of AC motors
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2006/doc/presentations/Americas/AZ105.pdf
It would be nice if this info ( with corrections welcome ) would be
on
a wiki somewhere. Anyone willing to take that up ?
-kert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a spam free email account - Visit http://www.bluebottle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
The dates are now set for both the 2007 Battery Beach Burnout and the EAA
6th EVer Conference!
The FL EAA chapter will be holding the second annual Battery Beach Burnout
Friday January 26th & 27th and the 6th EVer Conference Sunday January 28th
2007. The Battery Beach Burnout is the Southeasts premier EV competition.
Events will include drag racing, autcrossing, show-n-shine, technical
competitions and new for this year, range events and scootercross! The EVer
conference is the National conference for all the EAA chapters.
Both events will be organized by the FL EAA and held in Jupiter, FL. Jupiter
is located in the West Palm Beach area of South FL.
Tentative Schedule of Events:
Friday January 26th 6PM BBB Drag Race at Moroso Motorsports Park in Jupiter,
FL.
- EV Drag Racing from 6PM till 1AM, Midnight Madness type event.
Saturday January 27th BBB other events at Florida Atlantic University (FAU),
Jupiter Campus (All Day starting at 9:30AM)
- EV Autocross
- EV Scootercross
- EV Show-N-Shine
- EV Range Event
- Other competitions to be announced
- Saturday night will be a EV Social Event and possible cookout
Sunday January 28th Conference Florida Atlantic University (FAU), Jupiter
Campus (All Day starting at 9:30AM)
- EVer Conference
- EV Displays
The theme for this years Conference will be Education. This will encompass
Programs for High Schools and Colleges, Public Education and Awareness, and
EV Workshops. There is talk of adding a couple of other topics, but the
overall focus will be education. If you are interested in speaking at the
Conference or have suggestions, please contact me (address and phone listed
below).
If you are interested in being a sponsor, or are interested in competing at
any of the BBB events, please contact Matt Graham (772-215-6180 or matt at
suncoast.net).
More information will be posted on the FL EAA website (www.floridaeaa.org)
in the next few days. Please keep checking the website for updates. There
will be a registration form on the website for both events in the next week.
Thanks look forward to seeing everyone in January!!!
Shawn M. Waggoner
President, Florida EAA
www.floridaeaa.org
8343 Blue Cypress Dr.
Lake Worth, FL 33467
USA
Mobile: (561) 543-9223
Fax: (888) 909-8785
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your arrogance Befuddles our Brilliance..
It certainly was not your technical Bandwidth that Offended me..
It clearly is your attitude.
This is a technical list not a Old English literature list.
Voltaire would understand.. it's not the freedoms that I wish to limit it's
your heavy handedness and lack of regard for those of us who DO.
Do meaning.. Do stuff for a living instead of talk about it.
Dissent?? More Like BS detector.
I am proud of that, and the list, in general, is happy to have me lay down
some heavier handedness when required.
By the way this is the second direct personal attack on this list.. for no
real good reasons.
How many do you think you are going to get away with??
You certainly are not taking the behavior hints very well.
So..Shall we get back to EV issues..
Or will I endure a Spelling and Grammar check???
OK just for you, I will run the spelling checker...
ya Know .. I don't know what my true status on Mg was, Besides Jesse's and
the Camera crews whipping boy, But the check stub said Build team leader...
So.. I kinda have stuck with that.
Read into it what you will...
Enough of this Fluffy waste of Bits,
lets get back to EV stuff.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: Short and blunt
> Hi "Build leader"
>
> Friendly place this. Especially when the matter had been put to bed, yet
> your little man syndrome kicked it. Seems anyone that dissents and dares
to
> question anything on this list is open to attack. Poor Jack just got a
dose
> for daring to point out some new NiMH cells.
>
> I don't agree with some things you say and find you abrasive and uncouth
> YET, the key difference between us is that I would never ask for anyone to
> be removed from this list. In the words of Voltaire "I might not agree
with
> all you say but I will defend your right to say it". You however, want
> anyone that appears to disrespect your imaginary hierarchy to be removed.
> Unlike you, I do not wish to get respect (you're projecting) however, I do
> wish to know the truth.
>
> I might have appeared to come from nowhere but I've been here a while and
as
> you can tell, I've seen you pull these outbursts before, "build leader".
>
> Let's be clear: the point of your post was to stamp your authority and
> reinforce the hieratical structure you have built in your head of the EV
> world, with you somewhere near the top.
>
> Cliff's mails did bother me; I tried to debate the issue yet he turned
> nasty, however, you don't really bother me at all and I have even less
> respect for you now for trying to jump on someone you thought was new to
EVs
> and attempt to scare them away from what you appear to consider your list.
>
> P.s. Seam is a noun, as in a line of stitching, I think you wanted the
word
> "seem" which is a verb. As in: "I seem to be a verb" :-)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2006 1:56 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Short and blunt
>
>
> Oh It looks like we have a short timer...... abusing a long time Ev
> lister....
>
> First David... treading ligher might give you a little better respect here
> on this list.
>
> Cliff has been on this list for a long time sharing his experiences with
> Kokam's.. this is very usefull information.
>
> You Seam to have come out of no where and know more than Guy who has years
> of abusive racing on Said Batteries.
> Guess who we are going to lilsten to???
> Clearly not the Sqeaky voiced Punk that has some nasty things to say about
> some pretty good batteries.
>
> So I cast my vote to the list Gods to send you on your way.
>
> If you have something to say, Say it cleanly and clearly and back it up
> with data.. or don't say it all.
>
> have a nice Day..
> On some other list please.
>
> Madman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:45 AM
> Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
>
>
> > I'm sorry you chose to run away from the debate especially without
> > addressing any of the issues but instead did the equivalent of sticking
> your
> > fingers in your ears and singing "I'm can't hear you", is this a mature
> > response?
> >
> > Now, for the record and for the list - as you're not listening ;-), I
> posted
> > what are called OPINIONS, sorry that you don't like them but I have that
> > right. You responded to my own personal OPINIONS with a highly
> inflammatory
> > mail (which you stated yourself) and raised tired old fallacies. You
acted
> > like a dick and I called you on it, your first reply to my OPINIONS was
an
> > inelegant attempt at a put down and if you were honest with yourself you
> > would admit that, although by running away you obviously know you are
not
> on
> > a sure footing.
> >
> > You might not know Kokam have had problems with the large packs, and
> > something else you don't know: my brother was the sole importer for
Kokams
> > in the UK for over a year and they had scaling problems then.
> >
> > I'm above your ad hominem attacks so let's clarify some real points:
> >
> > My comment about Kokam claiming 500 cycles: I refer to the fact that
they
> > make this claim when it is false, has been proven false by independent
> > testers and that is with smaller packs. 800 cycles? BWWaaahhh, sure, and
I
> > also have a rather nice bridge for sale. With batteries, all
manufactures
> > make claims, many outrageous and Kokam have a record of this, they were
> the
> > first manufacture to start using capacity rating with a discharge
current
> of
> > 0.2c while most other manufactures at the time used 1C, sneaky. Who
> > initially denied LiPo cells had a shelf life? Why, that would be Kokam.
> >
> > I believe there is always things to learn from everybody and have found
> this
> > to be the case throughout my life, in fact everyone I've met I have
learnt
> > something from, or at least I can not thing of anyone I have not learnt
> > anything from. Take Cor's excellent response, he quoted verifiable facts
> and
> > simply put the thread to rest, of course, until you had your tantrum.
> >
> > One thing I find absolutely stunning is your attempt to have the last
> word,
> > simply amazing. Anyone with a rational mind knows exactly what you are
up
> > to; you see, rational people that truly believe that "life's too short"
> > would simply deleted the mail and block the sender. You on the other
hand
> > waste your "too short life" sending a response! Unbelievable. Further,
> I've
> > seen you pull the exact same stunt with others on this list and had 2
> > private emails after your first outburst stating that you are "arrogant
> > without any cause to be" and "not just a dick, an elitist dick" so it
> > appears you have upset others as well.
> >
> > Your behaviour is transparent and from it, I can be certain you will
read
> > this mail; ironically though you have prevented yourself from even
> replying,
> > oh my.
> >
> > Cliff, be especially careful when talking about items you have a vested
> > interest in, such as being sponsored - firstly you must be aware that
you
> > can easily come across as a bought and paid for shill out to mislead and
> > suppress other peoples OPINIONS that don't match what you are trying to
> > promote. Secondly, what you do on this public list also reflects on the
> > company that sponsors you. Now, go and think about how badly you have
> > handled this, in front of a lot of the EV community and how that
reflects
> on
> > Kokam and their choice to be represented by you. You can't learn
anything
> > from me? You just did ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of ProEV
> > Sent: Monday, 25 September 2006 10:32 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto
enthusiasts)-Long
> >
> > David,
> >
> > I am on the EV list to learn from other's experiences and knowledge and
to
> > share my experience and knowledge. It is often a fun and educational
> > experience.
> >
> > But I do not enjoy being called 'a dick'. Life is too short. It is also
> > against the list charter
> >
> > Luckily there is a quick technological fix. I just added your name to my
> > blocked list.
> >
> > I often hesitate to do this because there are some abrasive
personalities
> on
> > the list who do contribute excellent information. Blocking them cuts me
> off
> > from things I would like to learn.
> >
> > In your case, I feel there is little danger of that. Statements like <
> This
> > has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago.> does not tell me
> > anything except that you were convinced by someone's argument. It does
not
> > help me learn anything.
> >
> > You pose vague argumentative statements, < Kokam still have the same
> > problems with larger packs failing? > which seem designed to put Kokam
in
> > the position of "When did they stop beating their wives". For the
record,
> I
> > have not heard anything about any Kokam packs failing despite exchanging
> > information with a lot of Kokam users. ProEV posts our experiences in
> public
> > to help others learn from our mistakes. We have had cells fail because
we
> > have chosen to run the cells outside of what is recommended.
> >
> > Specifically our 70 amp-hr cells were rate for 5 C (350 amps)
continuously
> > but on the track, we would run them closer to their peak rating (700
> amps).
> > Kokam had no experience under these conditions but suggested that if we
> kept
> > the cell below 60 degree Celsius, we might just lose some cycle life.
Our
> > cooling scheme was inadequate and many cells went over 70 degree
Celsius.
> We
> > have learned that Kokam is right. High heat can kill a cell.
> >
> > We have also shorted cells and killed cells by over-discharging them but
> not
> > on purpose.
> >
> > Other of your statements are just poorly written and hard to understand
> > <Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles pack life! > .
I
> > think you mean that the latest Kokam cells last for only 500 cycles .
This
> > would be wrong. The new cells ( called High Power and Ultra High Power )
> are
> > conservatively rated for over 800 cycles.
> >
> > http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html has a graph of
the
> > 100% discharge test at over 1,400 cycles. (Everyone should keep in mind
> that
> > no manufacture has given us a solid answer of calendar life since each
new
> > cell formulation has not been around long enough for anything but
> simulated
> > calendar life testing, so cycle life might not be our biggest concern.)
> >
> > Good bye, David.
> >
> > If anyone else has questions about David's arguments that I did not
> address,
> > please feel free to ask them.
> >
> > Cliff
> > www.ProEV.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
Eric wrote -
You'll often see good deals on Heinemann breakers on Ebay, although you
should do your research thoroughly, or ask the list before purchasing.
In fact, this is the model I bought: http://tinyurl.com/qxyd7
Be sure to confirm with the seller that it is the "slow trip" curve (-01
suffix for Heinnemans)
I'm glad the Ebay Heinemann's came up...
I've been checking them out, and rating them according to an email that someone
put up on the list, I don't rem who.
Here it is...
GJ1-B3-DU0250-01C
GJ = Breaker Series
1 = Single pole
B = Freq: DC, Rear terminals
3 = Series Trip
DU = Rating, UL 489
0250 = 250A
01 = Time Delay is "Long"
The GJ1 vs GJ2 vs GJ3 portion of the part number, this identifies the number of
poles that the breaker has (1, 2, or 3, repectively).
The 3 means "series trip" and refers to the internal configuration of the circuit
breaker. Series trip refers to the internal current sense element being electrically in series
with the switch contacts. There is no value of "1" for this parameter.
The last bit of the part number "-01"specifies the trip curve for the breaker.
- 01 is a long delay curve intended to avoid nuisance trips in motor applications and works well for EV applications.
- 03 is a short delay curve and is unlikely to work well in an EV because the breaker will open quickly when its rated current is exceeded rather than riding out the brief high current excursions typical in EV use.
Now when you look at the model # on ebay, it is GJ1P-Z36-1 or GJ1P-B3-P-E-DU, and when you compare the picture and the info above something doesn't match. 'IP' supposedly denotes 1 pole, but 2 are shown in the picture; 'B' denotes rear teminals and the picts show front terminals.
I was the one who originally posted this info, but I feel I need to
explain it better. Heinemann's method of numbering it's parts can lead
to some confusion.
When I originally bought from this seller, I confirmed the model number
is a GJ1P-B3-P-E-DU-0250-01 (250 Amps; extra 01 is the slow trip
curve). Anyone buying from them should make sure this is the case, as
it's not listed on the auction. The other part number might be the part
# for the original customer that ordered it, since these are surplus. I
can't really say.
The "GJ1P" series of breakers electrically have a single pole.
Internally, they have up to 6 poles, depending on how much current they
can carry. The individual poles are physically attached, and
electrically joined into one pole. Additionally, the GJ1P breakers have
"Precision Current Equalization" to eliminate the problems normally
associated with paralleling breakers. The 250A breakers are _physically
two poles wide_, and are two pole _internally_, but electrically, and
mechanically they're one pole.
Heinemann also makes the "GJ Series," which is different from the "GJ1P
Series." As near as I can tell, GJ1P breakers are made up of GJ
breakers which are ganged, wired as a single pole, mechanically linked,
and current-balanced to make a single high-capacity circuit breaker.
Look at page 11 of this PDF:
http://www.eatonelectrical.com/unsecure/cms1/PG01100001E.PDF
I wouldn't put too much stock in the photo on Ebay. If you like, I can
take a hi-res picture of mine next to a ruler so that you can see what
you're getting. IIRC, it came with a mounting hardware set that allows
different mounting configurations.
From the GJ1P datasheet:
"GJ1P breakers rated 250 to 1200A are built in parallel construction.
Conventional parallel pole breakers can experience uneven current
distribution because of variations in internal resistances. This
condition can result in nuisance tripping since the higher current in
one parallel branch has the same effect as an overload on the sensing
element in that branch. Proprietary Precision Current Equalization
(PCE) circuit breakers, on the other hand, allow for differences in
internal resistances by automatically distributing the current equally
through the parallel current sensing elements, minimizing the danger of
nuisance tripping."
Can anybody shed some light on this?
Does this one on ebay have the same specs as the one on evparts?
Thanks,
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking to build a set of window comparators for the display side
of my bms. The older ACP cars have one led per battery. The led lights
when the battery's voltage goes above 13v. It gets brighter the further
above 13v it goes.
The same is true during discharge. The Led comes on at about 11 volts
and gets brighter the further below 11 volts it goes.
Both of these functions apply to the same led. The variable brightness
portion of the circuit I don't grasp as windoow comparators I've found
are solidly on or off.
Ideas?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EAA Chapter Presidents to Cross Paths ??
The SVEAA (9/30)is shaping up to be a Really Big SHEEEEWWWW....
Am spending my Christmas money to come down and take it all in.
Any suggestions !!. Have Maps, directins, Rental Car
( sorry no EVs or PHEVs or Hybrids available )
See you all round 11 am.
Must be back at the SF Air Port to return to Seattle, before 9:30 ..but
looking forward to any Post-EVents Social happenings untill then...
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi ? and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Cheapest not most efficient ev
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:53:08 -0700
>I would like to put together a plan for the cheapest way to
>homebuild an ev.
As one of the cheapest EV'ers here, it depends on what
you mean by cheap and EV.
I like using plywood/wood/epoxy to build a very strong
but light boat/plane style low cost body, using a front end
from something dead like a VW bug one, any series motor of 3
hp or more like 2 from golfcarts or a forklift motor for a
single rear chain/belt driven wheel or a golfcart
motor/transaxle for under 40 mph, more with a bigger motor
would be inexpensive ideas that can be done cheap with reg
hand tools.
And finished clear epoxy, the wood grained body can be
rather builtiful.
Another is a CG transaxle with a MC front end can be
done for under $500 easily for those inclined to scrounge.
If we know what you want it to do in more detail, we
could find your least cost solution.
>
>I mean by using off the shelf mass manufactured parts like
>motors that aren't the most efficient but rather the most
>short range roadable vehicle for the dollar.
You can find eff motors like PM ones surplus, at
scrap metal yards. Just take a 12dc battery with you to make
sure they work.
>
>Any ideas what motors and batteries could be used in such a
>case?
>
>For example what about homemade lead acid or other metals
>batteries using sheets of lead and an acid.
Not worth it. Good batts last and homebuilts and most
other batts don't. Being cheap here is buying new of they
correct type. Though many places sell AGM/Gel batter
takeouts from cell towers, ect that while a pain to keep
balanced, are cheap.
>What about using many cheap electric motors like toy motors
>of very small size bound together in each wheel.
Costs to put them together. Larger dia motors are
more eff so better to have just 1 or 2 motors. And if you
hunt them down, a used motor should cost you less than $100.
What of
>price performance can you get using that philosopy?
>
>Any thoughts?
There is such a thing as being too cheap which is
really expensive. Better to go with good stuff and keep it
simple to have a god EV. Mine was built, driven for 10 yrs
onless than $1k for everything, batts, taxes. liences, ect!!
That's only $100/yr for a 60 mph/30 mile range EV.
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
>www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about
>hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
>www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> from something dead like a VW bug one, any series motor of 3
> hp or more like 2 from golfcarts or a forklift motor for a
Jerry
I misread you comment, but that got me thinking about another approach to the
NEV 3 wheeler. I
started thinking about 2 wheel motors in the front without any steering
mechanism. Use the two
motors to steer like a Big mowing deck, like Steve C. uses. The downside is
you'd need two motors
and two controllers, but they could be lighter duty. The rear wheel is just a
caster to keep your
butt off the ground. Might not be great on the highway, but would be excellent
for tight parking.
Almost zero turning radius. Or has this already been shown to be a bad idea?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Thay show the car on the street, suggesting that it can
>> be driven on public streets,
>
> But it can. What's the problem?
Not legally, at least not in the USA. It states that it's top speed is
55kmh. That means it's to fast to be a NEV.
It's obviously not a full up street legal EV (the lack of VIN for one
thing, as well as the required safety items).
If it's not one, and it's not the other, then you can't legally drive it
on public roads.
> But rather than try to shut them out, personally I think "we" should
> offer to help the factory - tell them that their sales tactics have
> been rubbish so far. Advise them about registration options and what
> they should be telling potential customers. Help them get it right.
>
Not just rubbish, but unethical and a violation of ebay policies. Shill
bidding and so forth. Personally I have no intention of helping someone
like that, even if it doesn't turn out to be a scam.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
>Let's look at the last opinion expressed by Mr. Hart. Why
>would one think that GM, Toyota, Ford, Azure, ISE, etc
>would NOT use experts on EV design for their EV and HEV
>products which use AC motors? I believe these companies
>have some of the brightest minds in the world designing and
>engineering these modern electric drive systems.
Bright minds?? Were they successful? Why?
Because they built expensive, gold plated EV's that
never would be cost effective. No? Also they have little EV
experience!!! We have hundreds of times more on this list!!
Now had they built a real mini pickup as an EV that
didn't weigh so much, more aero so they could use a much
smaller battery pack of golf cart batteries with a DC series
or Sep Ex EV drive, then we would have EV's right now that
would be cost competitive with ICE's.
>
> Also, the vast numbers of commercially successful EVs
>(fork lifts, buses, trains, etc) which are DC owe the vast
>numbers to the fact they have been around for decades, if
>not a centruy.
Yes they are. So why change? A DC motor can be as eff
as any AC one, especially if you need torque which we do.
And a DC controller will be a little more eff and will be
lower cost by at least a factor of 2.
Now please tell me again why AC with it's costly high
voltage battery pack/controllers is a better EV drive?
If one wants to be successful, one uses the proven,
cost effective tech. That's what I'm doing.
The cheapest AC/motor/controller I could find was $4k
while a more powerful DC system cost under $1k.
As a manufacture has to get at least 2x's it's costs
to build, it will cause an EV to be $6k more just for the
privilge to say you use AC. You are not going to be
successful with those thought processes.
Most, if not all, that are currently being
>produced are either looking at AC drives or offering
>vehicles using AC drives. Since the advent of economic and
>reliable power electronic devices and information
>processors, the shift from DC to AC motor systems has been
>noticeable, industry wide.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I love the DC commutator motor. What
>a great machine. I also respect the AC systems a great
>deal.
I don't respect AC motors with the exception of BLDC
PM disc type motors that are eff, easy, low cost to build as
are my version of their controllers. But until I can build
mine, a series/sep-ex are by far the best EV motors you can
buy and what I'll use for now.
Jerry Dycus
>
> Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim if you could take a look. I suspect gear reduction but what do I know.
I would think 72v forklift motors could really be overvolted. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: Parts worth salvaging?
> At 09:23 PM 26/09/06 -0700, John wrote:
> >I have permission to salvage parts off of a Hyster Hi-Racker that is
> >destined for the scrap dealer. It is a 72 volt unit with 2 motor in
wheel
> >units and three hydraulic pump motors.
>
> Yes, yes, get!!
>
> Wheel motors are probably too much trouble to use, but the EV1,
Contactors,
> non-wheel motors, look for a DC/DC converter, too. Cables may be useful,
if
> not too corroded.
>
> EV1 will do for a light car, a bike or a trike, not necessarily with one
of
> the motors from this, though. But yes, get, if not for yourself, then
> another EVer.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Get the batteries too.
Think core-charge *shudder*
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: Parts worth salvaging?
At 09:23 PM 26/09/06 -0700, John wrote:
I have permission to salvage parts off of a Hyster Hi-Racker that is
destined for the scrap dealer. It is a 72 volt unit with 2 motor in wheel
units and three hydraulic pump motors.
Yes, yes, get!!
Wheel motors are probably too much trouble to use, but the EV1,
Contactors, non-wheel motors, look for a DC/DC converter, too. Cables may
be useful, if not too corroded.
EV1 will do for a light car, a bike or a trike, not necessarily with one
of the motors from this, though. But yes, get, if not for yourself, then
another EVer.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Gentlemen:
From what I know, I cannot agree with
"I think that US battery wants you to charge that high, so they can sell you
more batteries. The 2.583V or 7.749 is a equalization charge voltage."
USBMC recommendations are based on real world experiences with the objective maximizing the product performance both in terms of life and capacity. The differences fro the competition are owing to the differences in the materials used particularly the lead alloys in the positive grids. For ideal equalization, USBMC recommends constant current mode.
USBMC also recommends watering after charging, never before, to eliminate the
electrolyte overflow.
USBMC recommend the charging numbers to make sure the electrolyte is well mixed and that the battery is charged to its optimum level for longevity and capacity. 100% charged is a relative term: i.e. you can get a little more than 100% of the rated capacity by severe overcharging which we do not recommend. Undercharging will also shorten the product life by creating lead sulfate seed crystals on which large less chargeable crystals can grow.
Charging to 98 - 99 % is not significantly different from 100% and is hard to determine precisely anyway, so it is OK.
Please see the following link for useful information on charging and
maintenance.
Also please contact me for any specific findings, questions, or clarifications.
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm
Nawaz
Hello Tim,
I think that US battery wants you to charge that high, so they can sell you
more batteries. The 2.583V or 7.749 is a equalization charge voltage.
The normal bulk charge should be at 7.4 to 7.5 volts depending on
temperature.
Even though you fully charge the battery and add water to it, it will be
weak for a couple of cycles. Why?, because the water sets on top of the
acid, making the electrolyte weak at the top of the plates and stronger at
the bottom.
Testing the S.G. of the electrolyte just after you water it, will show the
sample off the top is weaker than the electrolyte before you add the water.
When I add water to a battery, I first charge the battery up from 60-70% SOC
to 20% DOD or 80% State of Charge, then I add the water. I then charge the
batteries to 95 to 99% State of charge, this mixes the water and
electrolyte, but it may take several cycles to get a full 100% charge.
Its takes to long to cook the batteries, bubble factor to mix the water
added with the electrolyte, so I stop the charge at that time.
I also discharge to about 79-80% State of Charge, but only charge them to
95-99% SOC for my normal bulk charging at 2.5 volts per cell, because I
don't need to add every drop of current in the batteries to get where I am
going.
About every 3 months I let the batteries discharge in the 60-70% SOC, charge
to 80%, add water and then do a equalization charge to 2.58V per cell and
then clean the batteries.
I wait on watering them until the electrolyte level gets to 1/4 inch above
the plates at 50% DOD. I then charge them, which will rise the electrolyte
and than water them.
It takes twice as long to get to 98-99%, I will never try to get 100% after
I water them.
Also the charging current should be about 20% of the ampere-hour of the
batteries, so the electro motive force of the charging current will bring
out the sulfate that is deep in the negative plates and opens up more grid
passages. For my 260 ampere-hour batteries this would be 52 amp charging
for about 60 minutes when the batteries are discharge to 80% SOC.
After the initial charging of 50 amps for the first 100 cycles, I then
charge at 35 to 40 amps which is recommended for my Trojan batteries.
The ampere hour rating of the battery went from 245 AH to 260 AH during this
initial break in period as per my battery company data.
When battery plates are pasted, the compound is lay over like shingles. It
takes several charge cycles to open these up to form a larger plate area,
thus increase in ampere-hour. If very lite long charges, these new passages
may never be form and the sulfate may have harden deep inside the cell
grids.
My batteries have now be running just over 5 years and should be able to go
to 10 years or more.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:58 PM
Subject: Charging Woes
OK, I have a 144V pack of US 145s that is about a year
old. I've been using the 2.583Vper cell number
provided by US battery at 80C to get a finish voltage
of 186V. I'm using a PFC-20 and all has been well for
about a year. The pack sees light cycles, 8 miles each
way with a charge at both ends. It has seen a dozen
or so deeper cycles but never below 80% discharge.
Last week I charged the pack to 186, no problem,
constant voltage entered, timer started and the
charger shut down. The next morning I watered the
batteries and drove two or three miles on the pack and
fired the charger up figuring it would be a equalizing
charge. The charger never shut off, it ran all night
at 10 amps. I drove it to work and back the next
morning, and fired the charger up again. I kept an eye
on things and the voltage never reached 186V to
trigger the CV stage. I ended up having to lower the
voltage set point to 175V. It was OK for a couple of
days and then again wouldn't reach the CV stage. I had
been charging @ 10 to 12 amps. The voltage would go up
if I cranked the current up. I charged without
incident to 175V using the higher amperage setting of
18 to 20 amps. This worked OK for a week, today I ran
into the same problem even with the higher current
setting. The rest voltage is typically 154V, it rises
to 173 or so volts and stops. I checked the voltage
right after an 8 mile run, all the batteries read 6.3V
± .03.
Any guesses? I know I'm supposed to kill my first
pack, but I've been being careful. I've limited the
current draw to 350A max and the voltage to 130V
minimum. I have run the truck at the low voltage limit
occasionally, but not for any extended period of time
and the voltage always comes back immediately after
the load is taken off.
Any and all help would be appreciated.
TiM '61 Rampside pickup
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
This is rather easy with discrete components, though there
may be more elegant integrated versions.
The basic premise is that you should start with a voltage
amplifier and a configurable offset voltage, for example an
overall 3x gain amplifier having an offset at 12V that makes
its output zero when the battery is at 12V and have an output
of +3V when the battery is one volt higher at 13V and an
output of -3V when the battery is one volt lower at 11V.
Then all you need is a Red LED in a diode bridge to light up
when the output is about + or - 3V (1.5V for the LED and 0.7V
for each of the two low-voltage diodes in the path)
Obviously we need a resistor in series with the LED to limit
the current, as the output of the opamp will increase with
larger difference from the 12V offset.
To avoid separate symmetrical voltages to power the opamp,
the whole operation can be shifted to work at an offset
around 5V and use a resistor divider to measure the battery
voltage, while the battery also powers this circuit.
Let me know if you want a sketch of such a circuit, it should
need only:
- one opamp
- one zener of approx 5V
- one red LED
- four diodes (or one low voltage bridge rectifier)
- five resistors
If the zener has the proper temperature profile that it gets
a lower voltage at high temps with the same percentage as the
battery voltage changes over temperature then this circuit's
indication will even be temp compensated.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:41 AM
To: EVDL
Subject: Window comparator for BMS
I'm looking to build a set of window comparators for the display side
of my bms. The older ACP cars have one led per battery. The led lights
when the battery's voltage goes above 13v. It gets brighter the further
above 13v it goes.
The same is true during discharge. The Led comes on at about 11 volts
and gets brighter the further below 11 volts it goes.
Both of these functions apply to the same led. The variable brightness
portion of the circuit I don't grasp as windoow comparators I've found
are solidly on or off.
Ideas?
Mike
--- End Message ---
