EV Digest 5926
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) stand down on EV rescue mission
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Installation questions
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Getting the garage electrical up to EV snuff
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Installation questions
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: AC vs DC?
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Installation questions
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Join In! WAS : AC vs DC?
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Review of belktronix?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) BB600 USE pack update
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) bad boy charger questions
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC vs DC?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Charging Woes
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: AC vs DC?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Cheapest not most efficient ev
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) ZEV Cushman
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AC vs DC?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/27/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How do I know it's illegal? If you borrow your friend's DVD
and make a bunch of copies that you sell on Ebay, what do
you think if that's illegal?
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think that's a reasonable comparison.
I'd say this is more like a PC which looks like an iMac (those
existed) or any lawnmower that looks like a Flymo.
Thanks for the web link but it only says "Alternativer HTML-Inhalt
sollte hier platziert werden.Für diesen Inhalt ist der Macromedia
Flash Player erforderlich.Flash installieren" - so I'm none the wiser.
Do DaimlerChrylser offer a smart car in the US? How about an
electric one?
Note that the initial ads for this electric car not only
mentioned that is was a "Smart" but also had a fake VIN (!)
Have you ever sold a vehicle on ebay? You have to put something in
the VIN box. These cars apparently don't have one.
Look, I'm not trying to defend the way they've been offered on ebay -
that looks very poor, but let's concentrate on the vehicle. After
all, they'd hardly go to the bother of manufacturing a working EV just
to rip off a few gullible ebay customers.
Since the cars likely have not been imported into the US,
they cannot be allowed on public streets, I do not
understand why you say they can.
So they don't have "public streets" in China? That's where the photos
showed the vehicle. No claim has been made to whether they are legal
for use on US roads as far as I can see, and anyone with a bit of
sense would realise that they are probably not, straight off the boat.
You may not care and consider it none of your business,
that is your right. But do not be mistaken about the
intentions of this business, or it will do much damage.
So, who is interested in a cheap, city-car grade EV, and finding out
if it can be registered to use on the road?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got a message from Calvin King that although he was still having problems, he
had made prior out-of-town commitments this weekend, so not to plan on making a
trip this weekend. Hopefully he will get back with us soon to let us know if
he does need to have someone come over/down. Thanks to all who volunteered.
David Brandt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric wrote -
> You'll often see good deals on Heinemann breakers on Ebay, although you
> should do your research thoroughly, or ask the list before purchasing.
> In fact, this is the model I bought: http://tinyurl.com/qxyd7
> Be sure to confirm with the seller that it is the "slow trip" curve (-01
> suffix for Heinnemans)
I'm glad the Ebay Heinemann's came up...
I've been checking them out, and rating them according to an email that someone
put up on the list, I don't rem who.
Here it is...
>GJ1-B3-DU0250-01C
> GJ = Breaker Series
> 1 = Single pole
> B = Freq: DC, Rear terminals
> 3 = Series Trip
> DU = Rating, UL 489
> 0250 = 250A
> 01 = Time Delay is "Long"
>The GJ1 vs GJ2 vs GJ3 portion of the part number, this identifies the number
>of poles that the breaker has (1, 2, or 3, repectively).
>The 3 means "series trip" and refers to the internal configuration of the
>circuit breaker. Series trip refers to the internal current sense element
>being electrically in series with the switch contacts. There is no value of
>"1" for this parameter.
>The last bit of the part number "-01"specifies the trip curve for the breaker.
>
>- 01 is a long delay curve intended to avoid nuisance trips in motor
>applications and works well for EV applications.
>- 03 is a short delay curve and is unlikely to work well in an EV because the
>breaker will open quickly when its rated current is exceeded rather than
>riding out the brief high current excursions typical in EV use.
Now when you look at the model # on ebay, it is GJ1P-Z36-1 or GJ1P-B3-P-E-DU,
and when you compare the picture and the info above something doesn't match.
'IP' supposedly denotes 1 pole, but 2 are shown in the picture; 'B' denotes
rear teminals and the picts show front terminals.
Can anybody shed some light on this?
Does this one on ebay have the same specs as the one on evparts?
Thanks,
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry for that, I had no idea it was specificly illeagal based on wire
size. I always thought that maybe if one wire came disconnected during
use, you would have twice rated current through conductor. I guess they
are smart enough to disallow it where not necessary. Cool
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GI wish you'd stop talking about this! :) (I'm the
high bidder) It is a J1P-B3-P-E-DU Although it has
two bodies , it is a single pole switch. The two are
in parallel. Description at
http://www.fundamentalbaptistministries.com/ebay/250.pdf
--- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Eric wrote -
>
> > You'll often see good deals on Heinemann breakers
> on Ebay, although you
> > should do your research thoroughly, or ask the
> list before purchasing.
> > In fact, this is the model I bought:
> http://tinyurl.com/qxyd7
> > Be sure to confirm with the seller that it is the
> "slow trip" curve (-01
> > suffix for Heinnemans)
>
> I'm glad the Ebay Heinemann's came up...
>
> I've been checking them out, and rating them
> according to an email that someone put up on the
> list, I don't rem who.
>
> Here it is...
> >GJ1-B3-DU0250-01C
> > GJ = Breaker Series
> > 1 = Single pole
> > B = Freq: DC, Rear terminals
> > 3 = Series Trip
> > DU = Rating, UL 489
> > 0250 = 250A
> > 01 = Time Delay is "Long"
>
> >The GJ1 vs GJ2 vs GJ3 portion of the part number,
> this identifies the number of poles that the breaker
> has (1, 2, or 3, repectively).
> >The 3 means "series trip" and refers to the
> internal configuration of the circuit breaker.
> Series trip refers to the internal current sense
> element being electrically in series with the switch
> contacts. There is no value of "1" for this
> parameter.
> >The last bit of the part number "-01"specifies the
> trip curve for the breaker.
> >- 01 is a long delay curve intended to avoid
> nuisance trips in motor applications and works well
> for EV applications.
> >- 03 is a short delay curve and is unlikely to work
> well in an EV because the breaker will open quickly
> when its rated current is exceeded rather than
> riding out the brief high current excursions typical
> in EV use.
>
> Now when you look at the model # on ebay, it is
> GJ1P-Z36-1 or GJ1P-B3-P-E-DU, and when you compare
> the picture and the info above something doesn't
> match. 'IP' supposedly denotes 1 pole, but 2 are
> shown in the picture; 'B' denotes rear teminals and
> the picts show front terminals.
>
> Can anybody shed some light on this?
> Does this one on ebay have the same specs as the one
> on evparts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Huh, to have a meaningful discussion, it would help to clarify some terms.
There are quite few different kinds of AC motors ( and drive systems)
, and there are very few systems that run really on "straight DC"
which would mean battery->potentiometer->motor setup.
AC motors, relevant to EV apps include ( and are probably not limited to )
Asynchronous, three-phase squirrel-cage motors
Asynchronous, three-phase wound rotor motors
Syncrhonous three-phase PM motors ( often found in industrial servos )
Synchronous "trapezoidal" PM motors
BLDC or "brushless DC" motors are often trapezoidal PM motors with
commutator electronics built into motor.
Each of the types above has its strengths and weaknesses
ACIM squirrel-cages would potentially be very cheap and suitable for
EVs, but most of the off the shelf motors are built for industrial
apps and have abysmal power density bevause of heavy cases.
Tesla Motors is using wound-rotor motor, most of the hybrids on the
market are using synchronous three-phase motors.
Currently i believe PM motors of any type win in power density but
have their problems ( fixed magnetic field strenth, meaning iron
losses meaning efficiency losses ) and are more expenive
Control system for induction motors are a bit more complicated ( not
much nowadays as all the heavy lifting is done on dedicated DSP chip
anyway )
AC motors of each type can be driven sensorless with varying
difficulty which means cheaper overall system but getting better
control characteristics requires more tuning. More efficient method is
running with encoder or resolver feedback which means more parts but
better characteristics.
A couple nice presentations giving a good overview of all that
fundamentals
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2006/doc/presentations/Americas/AZ111.pdf
FOC or field oriented control of AC motors
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2006/doc/presentations/Americas/AZ105.pdf
It would be nice if this info ( with corrections welcome ) would be on
a wiki somewhere. Anyone willing to take that up ?
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I triped this breaker at 50 mph with the 1221B upgrade
in 3rd gear.
Perhaps I need something more than 250 amp?
--- Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> GI wish you'd stop talking about this! :) (I'm the
> high bidder) It is a J1P-B3-P-E-DU Although it has
> two bodies , it is a single pole switch. The two are
> in parallel. Description at
>
http://www.fundamentalbaptistministries.com/ebay/250.pdf
>
> --- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Eric wrote -
> >
> > > You'll often see good deals on Heinemann
> breakers
> > on Ebay, although you
> > > should do your research thoroughly, or ask the
> > list before purchasing.
> > > In fact, this is the model I bought:
> > http://tinyurl.com/qxyd7
> > > Be sure to confirm with the seller that it is
> the
> > "slow trip" curve (-01
> > > suffix for Heinnemans)
> >
> > I'm glad the Ebay Heinemann's came up...
> >
> > I've been checking them out, and rating them
> > according to an email that someone put up on the
> > list, I don't rem who.
> >
> > Here it is...
> > >GJ1-B3-DU0250-01C
> > > GJ = Breaker Series
> > > 1 = Single pole
> > > B = Freq: DC, Rear terminals
> > > 3 = Series Trip
> > > DU = Rating, UL 489
> > > 0250 = 250A
> > > 01 = Time Delay is "Long"
> >
> > >The GJ1 vs GJ2 vs GJ3 portion of the part number,
> > this identifies the number of poles that the
> breaker
> > has (1, 2, or 3, repectively).
> > >The 3 means "series trip" and refers to the
> > internal configuration of the circuit breaker.
> > Series trip refers to the internal current sense
> > element being electrically in series with the
> switch
> > contacts. There is no value of "1" for this
> > parameter.
> > >The last bit of the part number "-01"specifies
> the
> > trip curve for the breaker.
> > >- 01 is a long delay curve intended to avoid
> > nuisance trips in motor applications and works
> well
> > for EV applications.
> > >- 03 is a short delay curve and is unlikely to
> work
> > well in an EV because the breaker will open
> quickly
> > when its rated current is exceeded rather than
> > riding out the brief high current excursions
> typical
> > in EV use.
> >
> > Now when you look at the model # on ebay, it is
> > GJ1P-Z36-1 or GJ1P-B3-P-E-DU, and when you compare
> > the picture and the info above something doesn't
> > match. 'IP' supposedly denotes 1 pole, but 2 are
> > shown in the picture; 'B' denotes rear teminals
> and
> > the picts show front terminals.
> >
> > Can anybody shed some light on this?
> > Does this one on ebay have the same specs as the
> one
> > on evparts?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Rush
> > Tucson AZ
> > www.ironandwood.org
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in Storrs, next to UCONN.
So how many people show up at those? Are there a lot of cars?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Join In! WAS : AC vs DC?
Mike
You're not entirely alone. Bob Rice is down in Killingly (Killingworth?),
one of those places. I'm up in Canton. You can't be too far. Where in the
state are you? Bob has been hosting the local EAA meeting lately, about once
a month. That's a good place to meet your EV neighbors.
Dave Cover
--- Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm in CT.
>
> I haven't seen much of an EV movement up here. Not much in the way of
> alternative energy at all.
>
> The only thing I've seen in this area is NG vehicles.
>
> Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
Has anyone used the stuff that this guy sells?
http://www.belktronix.com
Thanks
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, But no need to apologize. As soon as I received your message I
understood what you meant and I can understand your frustration.
Although I had no idea that ANY email client supported threaded views, I
know what it's like when newsgroup users bury new topics under unrelated
messages and it can be frustrating.
I promise. New messages from this point forward.
Come to think of it, in this type of mailing list a threaded view would be
REALLY nice!
What's your email client again?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
Mike,
In light of John Griggs discovery, I think I'm the one that owes you (and
others, such as Mr. Willmon) an apology. It hadn't occurred to me that
Outlook doesn't (properly) support threading. There's no way you could have
been aware.
Sorry about that.
-- Eric
[N.B. Outlook _does_ indeed put "in-reply-to" and "references" headers in
it's outgoing messages when replying, but it does not honor them in messages
it receives. Yahoo mail seems to not set these fields at all.]
Michael Trefry wrote:
> Sorry, I thought that changing the Subject would de-link it from the
> previous message.
>
> I will create new mails from this point.
>
> Sorry :(
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:05 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
>
> Mike, what does this have to do with suppression diodes?
>
> Please make a new message for new topics rather than replying to
> existing threads. Hitting reply links your reply to the message you
> clicked on, and it appears in the "Switch protection" thread.
>
> Michael Trefry wrote:
>
>> I found my donor car!!!!
>>
>> And I'm picking it up this weekend.
>>
>> A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust,
>> just
>>
> a
>
>> spot on the engine mount bar.
>>
>> Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without
>> more knowledge and info, but winter is coming soon and one of the few
>> things
>>
> that
>
>> is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
>>
>> So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
>> installing an electric heater.
>>
>> What do you folks use in your EVs?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/27/06, Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Come to think of it, in this type of mailing list a threaded view would be
REALLY nice!
If you use Gmail it gives you a threaded view, AND splits off a new
thread if someone presses "reply" but makes a new subject line. I
thought that was how most mail readers worked but apparently not.
It works really well, apart from where people arbitrarily change the
topic line as the thread progresses - that messes things up.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yesterday I finally got the rest of the copper busbars machined and
installed to allow the 27 redtop BB600's to be connected in circuit.
They were already installed into the battery box, just not connected.
They have a 10-32 screw terminal and the greentops have a 10mm stud.
The 4 places that the BB600 redtops and BB600 greentops came together
there was a height different of 1/8". So those 4 bars had to have one
oval hole machined and one 10-32 slot added, then the 1/8" step added.
Whew! Normally a busbar gets 2 oval 10mm holes or 2 10-32 clearance
slots.
The truck has been running on a reduced voltage pack of 225 greentop
cells, 1.2v nominal. But now with 252 cells the old truck has a little
gitty up. The first thing I noticed is that the amperage at any given
speed is quite a bit lower. Usually at 60 mph it's about 60-65 amps.
Now it's about 45 amps. That should help the Peukert factor a bit more.
Yes there is a little Peukert factor with these nicads.
I've mastered the use of my torque wrench on the 504 nuts I tightened
over the 245+ busbars installed. At least I can replace a cell when one
goes bad. Speaking of which, that one cracked cell did not have any
drop damage on it. The picture made it look that way. It was actually
dried KOH. That really bugs me. How does a cell just up and explode?
This morning I drove the truck to work. It used 248 wh/mile. Which was
very easy to do with the extra pack voltage. Usually I go 50-55. That's
not my best, but I was going 60-65 the whole way in a cool and
breezeless morning with the headlights on. No truckers to draft this
morning!
The redtop BB600's that were added into the pack circuit are using the
same 3/4" x 1/8" x 2.135" copper busbars as the greentops. It's
overkill, as the redtop's terminal is only .400" wide but then again it
was easier to just make the same busbar over and over on the cnc with
just different hole sizes. Back in the dot com days when everyone was
buying sports cars I bought a Bridgeport and a lathe :) Then added cnc
to the mill. I'm still realizing the gains :) Anyway, I machined the
busbars to look just like the milspec ones that came with the nicads.
Took a while but now that it's done, I think it looks good. Since we
have our vehicles on display fairly often I wanted it to at least look
decent.
I am using the "A Special WW" compound on the redtop bare copper bars
for corrosion protection. The green tops have plated hardware except
for a few bare bars. They have not corroded at all in 400 miles
uncoated. But I think that the greentops are much less likely to
vent/leak due to a better sealing design and that the truck does not
charge or discharge at a very high rate. I should have them plated. But
I want to see if I can get away with it ;)
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was desperate so I used a bridge to charge my
batteries.
It seems to be working fine.
Im not using any capacitors or coils.
Im I missing something?
I think using it in Alaska will keep it cool enough. I
mounted it on a 3x4 ¼ sheet of aluminum that sits
behind the seat in my truck.
It does blow the breaker when it pulls too many
amps
like 22.5amps.
Last night I got it going at 18amps, and about 6 hours
later it was putting in 9amps and charging at 141volts
according to the emeter.
I have 20 of those 6 volts from sams club.
I dont see the harm. I think Im blowing the breaker
because I plug in right away. Perhaps if I let the car
sit for awhile after use it will take a lesser
charger?
Thanks in advance
I realize this topic has been
discussed before, but I feel it hasnt really focus on
going bare
Michael
Fairbanks Alaska
86 toyota pickup
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For clarification, induction motors are AC asynchronous motors. I have never
heard of a wound rotor induction motor used in an EV. My understanding was the
Tesla uses an AC Propulsion Company motor system, which is a squirrel-cage
machine, unless they have changed it recently.
You could also add to your list Switched Reluctance Drives. I guess it would
be classified as a synchronous non-PM AC machine. You don't see many, but I
think there was an electric motorcycle using a SRD several years ago.
Jeff
Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Huh, to have a meaningful discussion, it would help to clarify some terms.
There are quite few different kinds of AC motors ( and drive systems)
, and there are very few systems that run really on "straight DC"
which would mean battery->potentiometer->motor setup.
AC motors, relevant to EV apps include ( and are probably not limited to )
Asynchronous, three-phase squirrel-cage motors
Asynchronous, three-phase wound rotor motors
Syncrhonous three-phase PM motors ( often found in industrial servos )
Synchronous "trapezoidal" PM motors
BLDC or "brushless DC" motors are often trapezoidal PM motors with
commutator electronics built into motor.
Each of the types above has its strengths and weaknesses
ACIM squirrel-cages would potentially be very cheap and suitable for
EVs, but most of the off the shelf motors are built for industrial
apps and have abysmal power density bevause of heavy cases.
Tesla Motors is using wound-rotor motor, most of the hybrids on the
market are using synchronous three-phase motors.
Currently i believe PM motors of any type win in power density but
have their problems ( fixed magnetic field strenth, meaning iron
losses meaning efficiency losses ) and are more expenive
Control system for induction motors are a bit more complicated ( not
much nowadays as all the heavy lifting is done on dedicated DSP chip
anyway )
AC motors of each type can be driven sensorless with varying
difficulty which means cheaper overall system but getting better
control characteristics requires more tuning. More efficient method is
running with encoder or resolver feedback which means more parts but
better characteristics.
A couple nice presentations giving a good overview of all that
fundamentals
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2006/doc/presentations/Americas/AZ111.pdf
FOC or field oriented control of AC motors
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2006/doc/presentations/Americas/AZ105.pdf
It would be nice if this info ( with corrections welcome ) would be on
a wiki somewhere. Anyone willing to take that up ?
-kert
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tim,
I think that US battery wants you to charge that high, so they can sell you
more batteries. The 2.583V or 7.749 is a equalization charge voltage.
The normal bulk charge should be at 7.4 to 7.5 volts depending on
temperature.
Even though you fully charge the battery and add water to it, it will be
weak for a couple of cycles. Why?, because the water sets on top of the
acid, making the electrolyte weak at the top of the plates and stronger at
the bottom.
Testing the S.G. of the electrolyte just after you water it, will show the
sample off the top is weaker than the electrolyte before you add the water.
When I add water to a battery, I first charge the battery up from 60-70% SOC
to 20% DOD or 80% State of Charge, then I add the water. I then charge the
batteries to 95 to 99% State of charge, this mixes the water and
electrolyte, but it may take several cycles to get a full 100% charge.
Its takes to long to cook the batteries, bubble factor to mix the water
added with the electrolyte, so I stop the charge at that time.
I also discharge to about 79-80% State of Charge, but only charge them to
95-99% SOC for my normal bulk charging at 2.5 volts per cell, because I
don't need to add every drop of current in the batteries to get where I am
going.
About every 3 months I let the batteries discharge in the 60-70% SOC, charge
to 80%, add water and then do a equalization charge to 2.58V per cell and
then clean the batteries.
I wait on watering them until the electrolyte level gets to 1/4 inch above
the plates at 50% DOD. I then charge them, which will rise the electrolyte
and than water them.
It takes twice as long to get to 98-99%, I will never try to get 100% after
I water them.
Also the charging current should be about 20% of the ampere-hour of the
batteries, so the electro motive force of the charging current will bring
out the sulfate that is deep in the negative plates and opens up more grid
passages. For my 260 ampere-hour batteries this would be 52 amp charging
for about 60 minutes when the batteries are discharge to 80% SOC.
After the initial charging of 50 amps for the first 100 cycles, I then
charge at 35 to 40 amps which is recommended for my Trojan batteries.
The ampere hour rating of the battery went from 245 AH to 260 AH during this
initial break in period as per my battery company data.
When battery plates are pasted, the compound is lay over like shingles. It
takes several charge cycles to open these up to form a larger plate area,
thus increase in ampere-hour. If very lite long charges, these new passages
may never be form and the sulfate may have harden deep inside the cell
grids.
My batteries have now be running just over 5 years and should be able to go
to 10 years or more.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:58 PM
Subject: Charging Woes
> OK, I have a 144V pack of US 145s that is about a year
> old. I've been using the 2.583Vper cell number
> provided by US battery at 80C to get a finish voltage
> of 186V. I'm using a PFC-20 and all has been well for
> about a year. The pack sees light cycles, 8 miles each
> way with a charge at both ends. It has seen a dozen
> or so deeper cycles but never below 80% discharge.
> Last week I charged the pack to 186, no problem,
> constant voltage entered, timer started and the
> charger shut down. The next morning I watered the
> batteries and drove two or three miles on the pack and
> fired the charger up figuring it would be a equalizing
> charge. The charger never shut off, it ran all night
> at 10 amps. I drove it to work and back the next
> morning, and fired the charger up again. I kept an eye
> on things and the voltage never reached 186V to
> trigger the CV stage. I ended up having to lower the
> voltage set point to 175V. It was OK for a couple of
> days and then again wouldn't reach the CV stage. I had
> been charging @ 10 to 12 amps. The voltage would go up
> if I cranked the current up. I charged without
> incident to 175V using the higher amperage setting of
> 18 to 20 amps. This worked OK for a week, today I ran
> into the same problem even with the higher current
> setting. The rest voltage is typically 154V, it rises
> to 173 or so volts and stops. I checked the voltage
> right after an 8 mile run, all the batteries read 6.3V
> +/- .03.
> Any guesses? I know I'm supposed to kill my first
> pack, but I've been being careful. I've limited the
> current draw to 350A max and the voltage to 130V
> minimum. I have run the truck at the low voltage limit
> occasionally, but not for any extended period of time
> and the voltage always comes back immediately after
> the load is taken off.
>
> Any and all help would be appreciated.
>
> TiM '61 Rampside pickup
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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True, and from what I have been able to read about the Toyota hybrid electric
machines, they are a work of art. Very nicely engineered. However, PM vs
induction for electric propulsion is a design choice. I see no clear winner.
Both will work well. GM used induction motor in the EVone. Great application.
Also, most heavier electric and hybrid vehicles like trucks and buses use
induction motors.
Jeff
Andrew Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
BTW, Toyota uses PM motors and generators, not AC induction for all of it's
hybrids.
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I would like to put together a plan for the cheapest way to homebuild an
ev.
I mean by using off the shelf mass manufactured parts like motors that
aren't the most efficient but rather the most short range roadable
vehicle for the dollar.
Any ideas what motors and batteries could be used in such a case?
For example what about homemade lead acid or other metals batteries
using sheets of lead and an acid.
What about using many cheap electric motors like toy motors of very
small size bound together in each wheel. What of price performance can
you get using that philosopy?
Any thoughts?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folk's,
If interested, here's my ZEV Cushman I was thinking of selling to convert a
Karmann Ghia since the job has moved further away from my solar house. As Dave
noticed, it has the eee at 1.5kHz (lamination flabulation) to reduce road kill
(and for controller efficiency). battery scanner, onboard iso charger, E-F &
batt/motor current guages.
Mark in Roanoke, VA 540-473-1248
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
Shortcut to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230031709162
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--- Begin Message ---
I know of many heavy vehicles that use PM machines. That's our largest
market segment. I don't know the exact market division, but my guess would
be close to 50/50. So you're right, it's potatoe vs potatto. The
efficiency difference is pretty substantial, as is the current cost
difference. The question now becomes how much are customers willing to pay
for increased efficiency and lighter weight. For the enthusiast, my guess
would be not much. If you can get the same functionality out of an
induction machine at half the price, the choice is clear.
True, and from what I have been able to read about the Toyota hybrid
electric machines, they are a work of art. Very nicely engineered.
However, PM vs induction for electric propulsion is a design choice. I see
no clear winner. Both will work well. GM used induction motor in the
EVone. Great application. Also, most heavier electric and hybrid vehicles
like trucks and buses use induction motors.
Jeff
Andrew Roberts wrote:
BTW, Toyota uses PM motors and generators, not AC induction for all of
it's
hybrids.
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Ferrari successfully stopped some kit car makers because their kits
were copies of Ferrari bodies. No, the kits were not being passed off
as real Ferraris. As a side note, there is alot of copying of
out-of-production vehicles (like Cobras).
I saw people having their copycat Rolex watches, purchased in Mexico,
seized at the airport.
I'd be nervous about buying something that so blatantly copies
another product.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
On 9/27/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Lock,
>
> The issue here is that this Chinese company made an
> unauthorized (illegal) copy of the Mercedes Smart car
> styling.
Cor, who says it's "illegal"?
There may be a breach of copyright in "look and feel" terms, but that
car is no carbon copy of the Smart. It's DaimlerChrysler by the way,
not Mercedes. And as for them offering it for sale in North
America,
is the real Smart car even available there? If not, I don't really
see the problem, as long as they don't try to pass it off as a real
Smart.
> and are trying to sell it without providing any
> proof that it can be driven on US highways
This is true, but what of it? They are not *hiding* the fact that it
doesn't have a VIN number and so on.
> or even that the cars are actually available (the answer by the
rep
> indicated that they can be imported by the containerload)
Available means "item exists".
> and they ave deliberately mis-represented these cars by
> putting "Smart City car" in the advertisement text, which
> has since been modified.
I agree that's a bit cheeky, the ebay ads do look a bit fishy in
general.
> Thay show the car on the street, suggesting that it can
> be driven on public streets,
But it can. What's the problem?
> The buyers (if they receive a car at all) will likely have
> to wait until their money order has financed the import
> from China by container, after which they can enjoy
> driving their $15,000 golf cart around on their own property
$5360 isn't it?
> That is a far cry from the claims in the advertisement and
> the image that the Smart Car has, which is a Freeway capable
> vehicle, manufactured by a very reliable company (Mercedes).
>
> As EV community, we should put some effort in exposing and
> even stopping scams like this, enabling the victims to
> be informed beforehand and pointing them to the infringements
> so they can file their case if it is already too late.
>
> I think this case actually allows both Mercedes to file for
> infringement on their styling as well as any unhappy buyers
> to file with the FBI for misleading representation of goods.
> I am not a lawyer, though and if this would happen to me,
> then I would certainly like to know in advance if anyone
> has more info on the background of the seller and the
You know, they're offering an EV which may suit some peoples needs
and
budget.
An *affordable* city EV. Why try to stop it? What do you care
whether DaimlerChrysler might be upset about it?
I agree that anyone considering getting one should consider what
they're doing carefully, and research whether they will be able to
register it if they need to first.
But rather than try to shut them out, personally I think "we" should
offer to help the factory - tell them that their sales tactics have
been rubbish so far. Advise them about registration options and what
they should be telling potential customers. Help them get it right.
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--- Begin Message ---
This is clearly a shady deal, but it does give us an idea of what lies
ahead.
This seller is either ignorant of IP laws or utterly brazen. D-C will
surely go after him - but they aren't likely to catch him. Like many of his
countrymen similarly accused, he'll vanish into the shadows of Beijing's
alleyways. His company will simply cease to exist - for now.
That's the way these things work. In spite of their promises and a few high-
profile exceptions, the Chinese government seldom gives more than token
support to other nations' claims against their entrepreneurs' infringment.
But they DO help their entrepreneurs compete on a global level.
So next year the same guy will be back with a different company and a
restyled car that's no longer "Smart." Perhaps it will be called "Micro,"
or "Clack," after the Nissan Micra or the Hyundai Click. (If you doubt his
ability to do this, notice how blithely he said his engineers could whack
off 10cm in length so more cars would fit in a shipping container.) He'll
have learned some lessons and the new car will be better - maybe not yet
something he can legitimately sell in the US, but better. Iterate a few
more times, and he'll have a salable product.
I'm no fan of Chinese sweatshop products, but let's face it, for every
Chinese entrepreneur developing (or copying) a product, there's a Western
entrepreneur who's ready and eager to sign up for the US distribution
rights. This little car may not be legal and it may not be fast, but it's
reasonably attractive and it could be priced affordably. All it needs is a
little adjustment to remove the Smart references, NEV certification, and a
modest dealer network courtesy of our enthusiastic local business leader.
Make it cheap enough and good enough, and you can bet that within 6 months
of introduction, the 'net would be buzzing with schemes to make it go
faster, handle better, and ride smoother. Dozens or hundreds of this list's
members would gleefully snap them up and soup them up.
AFAIK, the most successful road EV in the US was the Citicar / Comuta-Car.
Jim Tervort once told me that about 2600 cars were sold in all (although
I've also seen "over 3000" and "over 4000" mentioned). That was despite its
ugly-duckling looks, indifferent support, and a price tag that was fairly
steep for the time and for what the car was.
It wouldn't be difficult for a marginally decent Chinese-made city car to
exceed these numbers. They'll probably never sell like Ford pickups, and
they aren't apt to scare GM much (yet ;-). But with decent marketing and a
US backer providing sales and service support, something similar to this
little bug could establish a quite respectable presence on US streets.
I've been saying for years that when there are small, inexpensive, practical
EVs offered in the US, the great likelihood is that the door jambs will say
"Made in China." Maybe we're seeing the first awkward runt pup in this
litter. This one may not make it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see
another one take "best of show" in a few years.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Tesla does indeed use a squirrel cage rotor. here's a picture
http://blog.wired.com/teslacar/index.album?i=19&s=1
-Peter
On 9/27/06, Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For clarification, induction motors are AC asynchronous motors. I have never
heard of a wound rotor induction motor used in an EV. My understanding was the
Tesla uses an AC Propulsion Company motor system, which is a squirrel-cage
machine, unless they have changed it recently.
You could also add to your list Switched Reluctance Drives. I guess it would
be classified as a synchronous non-PM AC machine. You don't see many, but I
think there was an electric motorcycle using a SRD several years ago.
Jeff
Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Huh, to have a meaningful discussion, it would help to clarify some terms.
There are quite few different kinds of AC motors ( and drive systems)
, and there are very few systems that run really on "straight DC"
which would mean battery->potentiometer->motor setup.
AC motors, relevant to EV apps include ( and are probably not limited to )
Asynchronous, three-phase squirrel-cage motors
Asynchronous, three-phase wound rotor motors
Syncrhonous three-phase PM motors ( often found in industrial servos )
Synchronous "trapezoidal" PM motors
BLDC or "brushless DC" motors are often trapezoidal PM motors with
commutator electronics built into motor.
Each of the types above has its strengths and weaknesses
ACIM squirrel-cages would potentially be very cheap and suitable for
EVs, but most of the off the shelf motors are built for industrial
apps and have abysmal power density bevause of heavy cases.
Tesla Motors is using wound-rotor motor, most of the hybrids on the
market are using synchronous three-phase motors.
Currently i believe PM motors of any type win in power density but
have their problems ( fixed magnetic field strenth, meaning iron
losses meaning efficiency losses ) and are more expenive
Control system for induction motors are a bit more complicated ( not
much nowadays as all the heavy lifting is done on dedicated DSP chip
anyway )
AC motors of each type can be driven sensorless with varying
difficulty which means cheaper overall system but getting better
control characteristics requires more tuning. More efficient method is
running with encoder or resolver feedback which means more parts but
better characteristics.
A couple nice presentations giving a good overview of all that
fundamentals
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2006/doc/presentations/Americas/AZ111.pdf
FOC or field oriented control of AC motors
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2006/doc/presentations/Americas/AZ105.pdf
It would be nice if this info ( with corrections welcome ) would be on
a wiki somewhere. Anyone willing to take that up ?
-kert
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