EV Digest 5929
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AC vs DC?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EAA Chapter Presidnts to Cross Paths - SVEAA
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: bad boy charger questions - efficiency vs power factor
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Ranger doner
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: air conditioning for ev's
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AC vs DC?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers (and other
references)
by "Karl M. Bernard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Battery Pricing
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Did someone say cheap EV!! Re: Cheapest not most efficient ev
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC vs DC?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I believe the compass is made just like that with the GPS units I have.
They calculate it from previous plots. There is some jittering due the
accuracy but we've made it less sensitive in our SW. But generally there
is not so much use for it anyway.
We will implement map program in the system later so basicly it can act
as general navigator. Features of the existing navigators (maps and
street names) are not that cheap to get. Also sharing a screen with all
programs is not that useful. So let's see if it gets done to actual product.
-Jukka
Mark Fowler kirjoitti:
I don't think any of the external GPS units have an on board compass.
Think about it.
An external unit (serial or usb) can be oriented in ANY direction
relative to the base unit (laptop, pda, whatever), so any compass
readings would be wrong.
However, pretty much all GPS software can determine the direction (and
speed) of movement simply by comparing the current position with the
previous.
Having said that, some all-in-one GPS units may indeed have an
electronic compass built in, which would be useful when hiking through
GPS-unfriendly terrain like heavy forest or a narrow ravines, or when
the device is first turned on before it gets a satellite lock.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Wednesday, 27 September 2006 12:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
Jukka,
Can you recommend any good GPS chips/devices that are
serial/USB capable
that also have an on-board compass? And (preferrably) for cheap?
-- Eric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Major wrote:
Why would one think that GM, Toyota, Ford, Azure, ISE, etc would NOT
use experts on EV design for their EV and HEV products which use AC
motors? I believe these companies have some of the brightest minds
in the world designing and engineering these modern electric drive
systems.
I know; it seems very strange if you're not familiar with large
corporate culture. Engineers call it NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome.
Crudely stated, it means, "We are so smart that no one outside the
company could possibly teach us anything".
These large companies *do* have lots of very bright, talented people.
However, there is a corporate culture that strongly encourages them to
only look *inside the company* for ideas. Anything from outside is
viewed with suspicion. There is a strong incentive to only use OUR
patents, OUR parts, OUR ideas, OUR assembly techniques. Everyone else is
viewed as the COMPETITION (evil word).
Many, times I have talked to engineers in the major auto companies. They
very sharp, but almost totally ignorant of how things are done in the EV
world in general. They simply don't know how they work!
There is one more factor. If you want to build a show car that will
never be mass-produced, you don't need to worry about cost. You can use
parts and techniques that you know are impractical and too expensive,
just "for fun" or to experiment. I think this was the mindset at the
auto companies when they designed their EVs. They didn't really believe
they would ever have to build them profitably.
Also, the vast numbers of commercially successful EVs (fork lifts,
buses, trains, etc) which are DC owe the vast numbers to the fact
they have been around for decades, if not a century. Most, if not
all, that are currently being produced are either looking at AC
drives or offering vehicles using AC drives. Since the advent of
economic and reliable power electronic devices and information
processors, the shift from DC to AC motor systems has been
noticeable, industry wide.
Very true! The times, they are a'changing. The brushed DC motor and its
controllers are a stable, mature, predictable technology. You know what
you get. There will still be some evolutionary progress, but not much;
most of the good ideas are already in use. Companies use them because
they *know* they can make them profitably.
The AC motor is also very well developed, and unlikely to change much.
But the "wild card" is that we have new electronic controllers. They
offer the POSSIBILITY of something better. There is no proof that they
will be better in the long run; but there is hope. Certain small AC
motors and controllers have been successful in replacing DC motors --
car alternators replaced generators, for example. But starter motors,
heater fan motors, etc. are all still brushed DC.
I think the auto companies had lots of young engineers, eager to play
with the latest DSP micros and AC motors, but with no experience in
brushed DC motors or controllers. The company's old-timers remembered
that alternators were better than DC generators ("the brushes would go
bad, and they don't make the amps"). Management imagined breakthroughs
that they could patent to lock out "the competition". So, they went AC.
I think the other, smaller companies are just trying AC to see if it
works out, in the nature of all good research and development. Sometimes
it pays off; sometimes not.
The key point on this list is to help people find solutions that work
right now, today, with the problems they are actually having. Often, a
DC system is the most cost-effective way to proceed. But for some
people, cost is less important, and the nature of the problem recommends
an AC system; these are available, too. BOTH are going to survive in the
market for a very long time.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have has bad experience with Sony chips with Linux. Instead I stay
with SIRF II or III chips.
The manufacturer is unknown yet but I see it sold with Navibe and
G.Mouse names. The Navibe had different chip earlier but then they
changed to Sony. It used 12 chanel receiver.
G.Mouse has 20 channel and is more accurate.
Not the exact site but gives something.
http://zydq.en.alibaba.com/product/50111031/50503563/GPS_Receivers/G_Mouse.html
It depends on the driver also if all the functions are available.
these go generally from $20 up to $70. Depends a lot where you buy.
-Jukka
Eric Poulsen kirjoitti:
Jukka,
Can you recommend any good GPS chips/devices that are serial/USB capable
that also have an on-board compass? And (preferrably) for cheap?
-- Eric
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
I have it acutally implemented already and it works quite nicely.
There are few different GPS chips which can give out already
calculated data. So not that much to be done on CPU.
The "range left" function is very useful as soon as you have very
accurate capacity calculation/estimation too.
But it takes some time to get used to 4 decimal ah count which looks
like some sort of code cracker from movies :) . Drops faster than it
actually does. I think "more information adds pain" applies here (a
saying?).
At least here (Finland) the GPS shows accurate enough numbers. Every
second I get several samples and from them the position. With one
sample I can get 4 feet off. With three samples I get it near one
feet. The route gets plotted if I wish and I can see the elevations
affect on consumption. I think we can come out with a route
calcualtion/optimization Sw for it too.
Also driving direction and speed comes out automaticly from selected
chips. Cheapest stuff ($20) USB ones might have less options to play
with. Better ones have more than you can even use.
All this is part of the Lion CCS (BMS) I'm working on.
What it comes to 0-60 things I have not yet started with that. There
will be some sort of error margin. How big... dunno yet. At least it
does not matter anymore if the front wheels does not touch ground
until 100 ft after launch...
Afterall this drag racing stuff can and should be done on track where
you have all the required equipment installed and secured enviroment.
But... so far I have not been able to drive nicely all the time with
1400 lbs car with 1k Zilla... eh..
-Jukka
fevt.com
Eric Poulsen kirjoitti:
This is a bit like measuring shaft diameter to the nearest 1/100th
using a wooden yardstick.
Why not use a racing timer?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Can a GPS be used to give 0 to 60 times? If so it could also be
used to log
altitude, distance etc. for purposes of range calculation. Hell if
you
could get it to talk to your emeter & a few other sensors like
temperature
you could get some real good data to figure energy usage. Real range
estimate before you go on your trip. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're so right here. Help they need.
If this car could be sold in EU as an road legal EVehicle it would help
EV cause.
Traditional car companies have shown their interest on EVs already. Right ?
-Jukka
Evan Tuer kirjoitti:
On 9/27/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Lock,
The issue here is that this Chinese company made an
unauthorized (illegal) copy of the Mercedes Smart car
styling.
Cor, who says it's "illegal"?
There may be a breach of copyright in "look and feel" terms, but that
car is no carbon copy of the Smart. It's DaimlerChrysler by the way,
not Mercedes. And as for them offering it for sale in North America,
is the real Smart car even available there? If not, I don't really
see the problem, as long as they don't try to pass it off as a real
Smart.
and are trying to sell it without providing any
proof that it can be driven on US highways
This is true, but what of it? They are not *hiding* the fact that it
doesn't have a VIN number and so on.
or even that the cars are actually available (the answer by the rep
indicated that they can be imported by the containerload)
Available means "item exists".
and they ave deliberately mis-represented these cars by
putting "Smart City car" in the advertisement text, which
has since been modified.
I agree that's a bit cheeky, the ebay ads do look a bit fishy in general.
Thay show the car on the street, suggesting that it can
be driven on public streets,
But it can. What's the problem?
The buyers (if they receive a car at all) will likely have
to wait until their money order has financed the import
from China by container, after which they can enjoy
driving their $15,000 golf cart around on their own property
$5360 isn't it?
That is a far cry from the claims in the advertisement and
the image that the Smart Car has, which is a Freeway capable
vehicle, manufactured by a very reliable company (Mercedes).
As EV community, we should put some effort in exposing and
even stopping scams like this, enabling the victims to
be informed beforehand and pointing them to the infringements
so they can file their case if it is already too late.
I think this case actually allows both Mercedes to file for
infringement on their styling as well as any unhappy buyers
to file with the FBI for misleading representation of goods.
I am not a lawyer, though and if this would happen to me,
then I would certainly like to know in advance if anyone
has more info on the background of the seller and the
You know, they're offering an EV which may suit some peoples needs and
budget.
An *affordable* city EV. Why try to stop it? What do you care
whether DaimlerChrysler might be upset about it?
I agree that anyone considering getting one should consider what
they're doing carefully, and research whether they will be able to
register it if they need to first.
But rather than try to shut them out, personally I think "we" should
offer to help the factory - tell them that their sales tactics have
been rubbish so far. Advise them about registration options and what
they should be telling potential customers. Help them get it right.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A compass is not needed for plotting points on a screen.
The screen has x/y coordinates. The GPS gives points back in x & y. In
UTM, higher X values are up, meaning north (above the equator). Higher Y
values mean east.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: September 27, 2006 11:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
Don Cameron wrote:
> The other alternative is to question what use is the compass anyways?
>
Think computerized mapping. Most of the time the map is oriented so that
your direction of travel is up on the screen.
> Don
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
>Thanks for the web link but it only says "Alternativer HTML-Inhalt
>sollte hier platziert werden.Für diesen Inhalt ist der Macromedia
>Flash Player erforderlich.Flash installieren" - so I'm none the wiser.
> Do DaimlerChrylser offer a smart car in the US? How about an
>electric one?
So, get Flash already.
The info I got was that an Electric Smart should come next year,
while the usual Smart (modified for the US) is already selling here
so yes - Mercedes (one of the companies sucked into DaimlerChrysler)
who has their logo on the front of every real Smart, certainly has
an interest in this scam.
>So, who is interested in a cheap, city-car grade EV, and finding out
>if it can be registered to use on the road?
You do not want to find out it can't be registered AFTER you have
paid $15,000 to a Chinese company, believing the presentation of
the car in the ad.
I'll stop this discussion now - I am sure that in the future we will
see very successful Chinese NEVs and even nimble freeway-capable cars
and in fact I would love to contribute to bringing smaller cars to
the US, because the bloated death traps not only cause too many
fatalities and hide that too many people are obese (who have grown
into the size of their SUV, like a plant grows when put in a larger
pot) but the waste of so many resources for so little net payload
(6000 lbs for a 200 lbs load is a 3% loading factor)
So any time that a car is offered that has true specs like range
and speed and so on) and can be sold without getting into a tangle
of litigation and registration, then I would happily consider one
and bring them under other people's attention.
The lithmus test: would you recommend the car to your best friend?
These Ebay scams certainly not.
The ZAP, Tango and Xebra? much more likely.
We'll see what the future brings.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water kirjoitti:
Evan,
They can't get it right after they copied the looks of a Smart,
which is a very severe infringement and any time they do
establish a business in the US trying to sell these fancy
looking golf cars, DaimlerChrysler will sue the heck out of them.
Have we got a confirmation that they do NOT have a permission to make
this vehicle in China ? You can buy BMWs and Audis and Toyotas in China
with completely different name and logo. They are licensed to make for
China markets. This might be the case here too.
I've decided to arrange a meeting with this company for my next China
trip.(few weeks to go). Let's see if they agree :)
If I can get near this EV I will shoot my flash disk full and share them
in my private site.
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIMÄKI
jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven,
In case you prefer not to use the Rental - Caltrain stops
within a few hundred feet from the show.
The Stanford station in Palo Alto is at 100 Embarcadero Rd,
at the other end of the block where the show is.
http://www.caltrain.com/caltrain_stations.html
You get to Caltrain from the SF Airport via BART (don't ask
why Caltrain does not hook up directly with the airport)
So you can take BART from the airport to Millbrae, then
switch to Caltrain direction San Jose (south) and in the
second zone you will find your stop after about 17 miles.
Total travel time should be under 1 hour with the
connection waiting time.
In case you prefer not to have to deal with the bus to the
rental place and the other hassles!
You might even find someone at the show that can drop you
off at the airport in the evening.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steven Lough
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:32 AM
To: Jerry Pohorsky; Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EAA Chapter Presidnts to Cross Paths - SVEAA
EAA Chapter Presidents to Cross Paths ??
The SVEAA (9/30)is shaping up to be a Really Big SHEEEEWWWW....
Am spending my Christmas money to come down and take it all in.
Any suggestions !!. Have Maps, directins, Rental Car
( sorry no EVs or PHEVs or Hybrids available )
See you all round 11 am.
Must be back at the SF Air Port to return to Seattle, before 9:30 ..but
looking forward to any Post-EVents Social happenings untill then...
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Wow, I'm even more confused.
>
> With an AC motor, you need an external electronic inverter, right? So
> what's
> the benefit?
Well, there are quite a few. The brushes on a DC motor eventually wear
down. This means that eventually they need to be replaced, and your motor
ends up with carbon dust floating around inside it.
This makes it harder to build a sealed motor, which means that you run a
risk of getting foriegn objects inside the motor (perhaps rare, but
possible)
So AC motors have an advantage in lower maintenance and higher
reliability. Granted Auto Makers make their money on repairs/maintenance,
but it has to at least last through the warranty period.
AC controllers can also have better control over what is happening inside
the motor, so you can potentially get higher efficiency over a wider RPM
range.
The flip side is that AC motor controllers are more complicated and
require more of the expensive high power silicon (since the comutation is
done in silicon rather than at the brushes). This makes the controllers
more expensive.
Theoretically, AC motors are simpler and cheaper to build than DC motors,
though not significantly so. Because AC motors don't usually have to
worry about carbon build up, they can be sealed and many of the EV
specific AC motors are even water cooled (somewhat more difficult to do on
DC motors). This tends to make the motors MORE expensive than DC motors,
but helps improve reliability.
>
> And do you need an external inverter with something like the Brushless DC
> if
> it's simply a Syncronous AC? Or do you not need a inverter with the
> Syncronous AC? And if either is the case then why differentiate the motors
> at all????
>
> Nobody has to answer this. I just really need to bone up on electrical
> engineering.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:37 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
>
> Michael Trefry wrote:
>> Please excuse my ignorance, I'm just trying to understand.
>>
>> How can DC be the same thing as AC?
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken, DC is direct current, meaning a steady stream of
>> electrons going in a single direction, while AC is alternating meaning
> that
>> it's constantly going back and forth. Right?
>>
>> There is no +/- with AC right?
>
> All motors are AC. There has to be AC in the coils, or the motor is very
> inefficient and awkward. What you think of as a DC motor is really an AC
> motor with a mechanical inverter (the commutator and brushes) that
> converts the incoming DC power into AC.
>
> Surprising, but true!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: bad boy charger questions
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:51:57 -0400
Mike,
Congrats on the charger. If you go to the evalbum tech files section it
shows the light dimmer charger. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/
I used a similar design with an autotransformer. Mike hasn't put the page
up yet, but I can email you the jpg schematic if you like.
Either one is inefficient and won't properly charge the batteries, but is
good in an emergency. Battery's cost $2K - $3K. A good charger will keep
them going for years. This charger will probably not. I recommend saving
up for a Zivan or Russco, but ideally the PFC 20 at the least.
In my setup, I choose the input tap so that I keep the current draw under
15 Amps (the house breaker setting) using the Sears amp clamp.
I got 65% efficiency. THis number only goes down as the vehicle charges.
Comparison. The Zivan got 85%-90% efficiency if I recall.
Do you really mean 65% efficiency? Or, are you talking about the power
factor?
If you're really getting only 65% efficiency, then, since you're putting
about 2350 watts into the batteries (156V x 15 amps), you would be
dissipating half of that, or about 1200 watts, in heat somewhere in the
charger. That's a lot of heat- about what you would get from a space
heater.
If you're basing that 65% number on measuring AC amps into the charger, and
comparing it to DC power into the batteries, then you're talking about power
factor, and not efficiency. In that case, the poor power factor limits the
charging current you can produce before tripping the breaker, but it isn't
really low efficiency, where a lot of power would be wasted as heat.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just got my doner vehicle today. 1990 extended cab w/5 speed transmission.
I've probably not been looking in the right places, but does anyone have tips
for what *not* to do? I'm not sure about keeping the clutch right now, and I've
thought about removing unused gears in the transmission (sounds like 1st-3rd
are useful) to reduce weight and drag from lubricant splash.
I plan to block off the radiator opening, fair in the bottom and look at ways
to reduce weight overall. It will probably be a gradual process, as I really
want to get down to the conversion itself.
Does anyone who has done a Ranger run into anything that really comes to mind?
Thanks!
-Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MikePhillips wrote (some time ago):
Does anyone know if it's possible and what it takes to bring Air
Conditioning
to a EV?
and the list came up with many ideas and suggestions.
I would like for Steve Clunn and others who have DONE IT
to way in on the pro's and con's of running the compressor off of the
secondary
shaft of the Traction motor vs. a separate motor ??
If you had a clutch couldn't you "idle" if you had to ?
I figure its hot in Fla.so steve should have some good advice ?
(OH I forget _ Steve said that he prefers two windows down at 40 mph)
Joe in Cincinnati
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Trefry wrote:
Thanks, But no need to apologize. As soon as I received your message I
understood what you meant and I can understand your frustration.
Although I had no idea that ANY email client supported threaded views, I
know what it's like when newsgroup users bury new topics under unrelated
messages and it can be frustrating.
I promise. New messages from this point forward.
Come to think of it, in this type of mailing list a threaded view would be
REALLY nice!
What's your email client again?
Mozilla Thunderbird
Threading is off by default. You have to turn it on for each folder via
View --> Sort By --> Threaded
http://www.mozilla.com/thunderbird/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know, but if you want the map to orient itself to the direction you're
facing, then you need a compass or something equivalent. When system
first starts up, I suppose it can "remember" the direction it was
pointed from last time, then re-compute as it get differential coordinates.
Don Cameron wrote:
A compass is not needed for plotting points on a screen.
The screen has x/y coordinates. The GPS gives points back in x & y. In
UTM, higher X values are up, meaning north (above the equator). Higher Y
values mean east.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: September 27, 2006 11:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
Don Cameron wrote:
The other alternative is to question what use is the compass anyways?
Think computerized mapping. Most of the time the map is oriented so that
your direction of travel is up on the screen.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:52:12 -0700 (PDT)
>Hi Jerry and All,
>
> Times, they are a changin'. And time will tell as to the
>AC vs DC issue.
At the moment the time is now, not some vaporware
away. And now DC beats the pants off of AC on cost,
relability, power by a large factor, No? If not please show
me the AC units that can beat a series on these things?
I want actual new pieces you can buy for you to prove
your point. If you can't, it kind of blows your arguement to
shreads. So where are they? Inquiring minds want to know?
I am a relative short timer to the list.
>I suspect this is not the first time the issue has been
>addressed here. But I have had a lot of experience with
>both DC and AC systems in EVs. Just trying to share some
>of it.
You obviously have little experience pricing systems
out for production or you wouldn't say such things. While AC
sounds good, in real life it's just a toy for those with too
much or other peoples money or bought it used.
If I were to use AC in my EV, I'd have to charge $19k
for it instead of $13k. Now which would you rather spend?
What would most people? Do you think it would slow
it's sales at the higher price?
>
> Bright minds? Successful? My take is YES.
Then you are rather niave.
Those gold
>plated EVs may have been successful had it not been for bad
>business decisions. But design success, I say yes.
Where? I want sucessful examples? You keep saying all
this stuff but no examples. And no a run of a few hundred is
not successful unless it makes an unsubsidized profit. An EV
with a $3-5k+ battery pack that needs changing every 3-4 yrs
is not successful. You may think just saying something over
and over makes it true but we are experinced here, not
newbies.
I could care less which EV drive system will do the
job, just that it do it in a cost effective manor. Adding
$6k to $15k to the price of an EV is a sure way to not be
sucessful. Yet you keep ignoring that. Why?
Look
>at Toyota. Better business decisions, better EV (HEV)
>success.
Barely better. And they are not really hybrids as
they just run from gas.
>
> In the mean time, anyone wants to market an EV with DC
>commutator motor and golfcar batteries, more power to them.
> I'm behind it.
>
> Why change? Better functionality, reliability and
>efficiency.
That is not true. Tell me one thing you can't do
with a DC motor/controller that you can an AC one? Either
can be made as eff, reliable, functional as the other except
the additional parts counts in the AC controller.
But the thing you can't do is build a cost
effective, as reliable given the same developement, AC
controller because you will always need 3 power stages
instead of the one for DC.
And AC does not necessarily have to be high
>voltage.
As the voltage drops, the eff of the AC controller
goes down as it has larger voltage drops compared to DC. And
the unit becones larger with it's 3 power stages at lower
voltages, higher amps.
AC also has to be rated 2x's as high to get the same
starting torque needed, upping the price higher. Many times
AC's high rpm needs, to lighten it's weight, a double
reduction gearbox, eating more power making it less eff,
less cost effective, higher weight. No?
Many fork lifts are offered, DC or AC, same
>voltage battery pack. As for the cost issue, it is far
>more than just that of the controller. Especially with an
>EV for the masses. You'll have to account for validation,
>tooling, warranty, etc. The big companies see an advantage
>for AC here.
How? This I got to hear as something 2x's as
complicated is going to cost less than something that's much
more simple, been around for yrs!! Just what have you been
smoking? Come on, you can think of some way to spin this ;^D
>
> The first hand held calculators were much more expensive
>than slide rules. And not even as functional. Why change?
When AC can match DC I'll have no problem switching.
It just isn't anywhere near close. Best now is for the same
power, DC costs 1/4 of AC. Now repeat that until you
understand it Jeff.
Jerry Dycus
> Jeff
>
>jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hi Jeff and All,
>
>----- Original Message Follows -----
>From: Jeff Major
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
>Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
>
>>Let's look at the last opinion expressed by Mr. Hart. Why
>>would one think that GM, Toyota, Ford, Azure, ISE, etc
>>would NOT use experts on EV design for their EV and HEV
>>products which use AC motors? I believe these companies
>>have some of the brightest minds in the world designing
>>and engineering these modern electric drive systems.
>
>Bright minds?? Were they successful? Why?
>Because they built expensive, gold plated EV's that
>never would be cost effective. No? Also they have little EV
>experience!!! We have hundreds of times more on this list!!
>Now had they built a real mini pickup as an EV that
>didn't weigh so much, more aero so they could use a much
>smaller battery pack of golf cart batteries with a DC
>series or Sep Ex EV drive, then we would have EV's right
>now that would be cost competitive with ICE's.
>
>>
>> Also, the vast numbers of commercially successful EVs
>>(fork lifts, buses, trains, etc) which are DC owe the vast
>>numbers to the fact they have been around for decades, if
>>not a centruy.
>
>Yes they are. So why change? A DC motor can be as eff
>as any AC one, especially if you need torque which we do.
>And a DC controller will be a little more eff and will be
>lower cost by at least a factor of 2.
>Now please tell me again why AC with it's costly high
>voltage battery pack/controllers is a better EV drive?
>If one wants to be successful, one uses the proven,
>cost effective tech. That's what I'm doing.
>The cheapest AC/motor/controller I could find was $4k
>while a more powerful DC system cost under $1k.
>As a manufacture has to get at least 2x's it's costs
>to build, it will cause an EV to be $6k more just for the
>privilge to say you use AC. You are not going to be
>successful with those thought processes.
>
>Most, if not all, that are currently being
>>produced are either looking at AC drives or offering
>>vehicles using AC drives. Since the advent of economic and
>>reliable power electronic devices and information
>>processors, the shift from DC to AC motor systems has been
>>noticeable, industry wide.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, I love the DC commutator motor. What
>>a great machine. I also respect the AC systems a great
>>deal.
>
>I don't respect AC motors with the exception of BLDC
>PM disc type motors that are eff, easy, low cost to build
>as are my version of their controllers. But until I can
>build mine, a series/sep-ex are by far the best EV motors
>you can buy and what I'll use for now.
>Jerry Dycus
>>
>> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
> All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and
>get things done faster.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For specific info about AC control, you might try looking at MicroChip's
Application Notes at their "AC Induction Motor Overview":
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1500
Freescale (another chip company) has some good AC 3-Phase notes here:
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=02nQXGrrlPglzQMszY
NEC (Europe) has some more App Notes:
http://www.ee.nec.de/applications/industrial/motor_control/030_general_motor_control/020_3_phase_asynchronous/index.html
For a decent overview about electric motors and other mechanical topics, you
can download free pdf's from Emerson's website:
http://www.emerson-ept.com/eptroot/public/schools/PT.htm
All Titles:
Basic Engineering
Bearings
Belt and Chain Drives
Adjustable Speed Drives
Clutches and Brakes
Couplings and U Joints
Gearing
Motors
The "Motors" document includes sections for:
DC MOTORS
AC MOTORS
SERVOMOTORS
STEP MOTORS
MINIATURE MOTORS
GEARMOTORS
MOTOR ENCLOSURES
MOTOR PROTECTION
MOTOR EFFICIENCIES
INDUCED BEARING CURRENTS
Hope that helps,
Karl Bernard
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers
Try Electric Motors and Control Techniques (Paperback) ISBN 0070240124
I got it from Amazon for about 17.00 and it covers ac & dc in some detail. good
primer
Pedroman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:31 PM
Subject: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers
> Can anyone recommend books or websites on an introduction to AC motors and
> controllers. I am technically capable so no problem with basic electronics,
> microcontrollers and mathematics.
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've having a "fun" time dealing with my Insurance Co after my fire.
So, anyone know where I can get pricing on 30AH flooded NiCd
cells? or 90AH LiIon cells?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave and all,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Did someone say cheap EV!! Re: Cheapest not
most efficient ev
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:55:23 -0700 (PDT)
>--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> from something dead like a VW bug one, any series motor
>> of 3 hp or more like 2 from golfcarts or a forklift motor
>for a
>
>Jerry
>
>I misread you comment, but that got me thinking about
>another approach to the NEV 3 wheeler. I started thinking
>about 2 wheel motors in the front without any steering
>mechanism. Use the two motors to steer like a Big mowing
>deck, like Steve C. uses. The downside is you'd need two
>motors and two controllers, but they could be lighter duty.
>The rear wheel is just a caster to keep your butt off the
>ground. Might not be great on the highway, but would be
>excellent for tight parking. Almost zero turning radius. Or
>has this already been shown to be a bad idea?
It's excellent for tight manuvering like inside a
home but once over about 10 mph, things can go very bad,
very quickly so you really don't want to go that way.
A MC front wheel with a golf cart transaxle makes a
great up to 50mph EV at a very low cost would be a much
better bet.
And as a MC, you are not limited to the restrited
areas a NEV must stay in. I'd never build an NEV, rather the
GC trke or a EV bike/trike instead so I can go anywhere
legally. One of my EV bike size trike had a 50 mile range at
20 mph!
Jerry Dycus
>
>Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Jerry,
I guess you got me with this cost issue. I cannot give you an "off the self"
AC system price to compete with a DC system. This doesn't mean AC systems are
not of value and everyone should stop messing with them. I'll keep working on
it and maybe someday it will become affordable.
Can't the same arguments used in favor of DC and against AC motor systems
apply to batteries? For example, NiMH and Lithium batteries vs the old tried
and true, lower cost PbAcid.
Jeff
jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jeff and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Major
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:52:12 -0700 (PDT)
>Hi Jerry and All,
>
> Times, they are a changin'. And time will tell as to the
>AC vs DC issue.
At the moment the time is now, not some vaporware
away. And now DC beats the pants off of AC on cost,
relability, power by a large factor, No? If not please show
me the AC units that can beat a series on these things?
I want actual new pieces you can buy for you to prove
your point. If you can't, it kind of blows your arguement to
shreads. So where are they? Inquiring minds want to know?
I am a relative short timer to the list.
>I suspect this is not the first time the issue has been
>addressed here. But I have had a lot of experience with
>both DC and AC systems in EVs. Just trying to share some
>of it.
You obviously have little experience pricing systems
out for production or you wouldn't say such things. While AC
sounds good, in real life it's just a toy for those with too
much or other peoples money or bought it used.
If I were to use AC in my EV, I'd have to charge $19k
for it instead of $13k. Now which would you rather spend?
What would most people? Do you think it would slow
it's sales at the higher price?
>
> Bright minds? Successful? My take is YES.
Then you are rather niave.
Those gold
>plated EVs may have been successful had it not been for bad
>business decisions. But design success, I say yes.
Where? I want sucessful examples? You keep saying all
this stuff but no examples. And no a run of a few hundred is
not successful unless it makes an unsubsidized profit. An EV
with a $3-5k+ battery pack that needs changing every 3-4 yrs
is not successful. You may think just saying something over
and over makes it true but we are experinced here, not
newbies.
I could care less which EV drive system will do the
job, just that it do it in a cost effective manor. Adding
$6k to $15k to the price of an EV is a sure way to not be
sucessful. Yet you keep ignoring that. Why?
Look
>at Toyota. Better business decisions, better EV (HEV)
>success.
Barely better. And they are not really hybrids as
they just run from gas.
>
> In the mean time, anyone wants to market an EV with DC
>commutator motor and golfcar batteries, more power to them.
> I'm behind it.
>
> Why change? Better functionality, reliability and
>efficiency.
That is not true. Tell me one thing you can't do
with a DC motor/controller that you can an AC one? Either
can be made as eff, reliable, functional as the other except
the additional parts counts in the AC controller.
But the thing you can't do is build a cost
effective, as reliable given the same developement, AC
controller because you will always need 3 power stages
instead of the one for DC.
And AC does not necessarily have to be high
>voltage.
As the voltage drops, the eff of the AC controller
goes down as it has larger voltage drops compared to DC. And
the unit becones larger with it's 3 power stages at lower
voltages, higher amps.
AC also has to be rated 2x's as high to get the same
starting torque needed, upping the price higher. Many times
AC's high rpm needs, to lighten it's weight, a double
reduction gearbox, eating more power making it less eff,
less cost effective, higher weight. No?
Many fork lifts are offered, DC or AC, same
>voltage battery pack. As for the cost issue, it is far
>more than just that of the controller. Especially with an
>EV for the masses. You'll have to account for validation,
>tooling, warranty, etc. The big companies see an advantage
>for AC here.
How? This I got to hear as something 2x's as
complicated is going to cost less than something that's much
more simple, been around for yrs!! Just what have you been
smoking? Come on, you can think of some way to spin this ;^D
>
> The first hand held calculators were much more expensive
>than slide rules. And not even as functional. Why change?
When AC can match DC I'll have no problem switching.
It just isn't anywhere near close. Best now is for the same
power, DC costs 1/4 of AC. Now repeat that until you
understand it Jeff.
Jerry Dycus
> Jeff
>
>jerryd wrote:
>
>Hi Jeff and All,
>
>----- Original Message Follows -----
>From: Jeff Major
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
>Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
>
>>Let's look at the last opinion expressed by Mr. Hart. Why
>>would one think that GM, Toyota, Ford, Azure, ISE, etc
>>would NOT use experts on EV design for their EV and HEV
>>products which use AC motors? I believe these companies
>>have some of the brightest minds in the world designing
>>and engineering these modern electric drive systems.
>
>Bright minds?? Were they successful? Why?
>Because they built expensive, gold plated EV's that
>never would be cost effective. No? Also they have little EV
>experience!!! We have hundreds of times more on this list!!
>Now had they built a real mini pickup as an EV that
>didn't weigh so much, more aero so they could use a much
>smaller battery pack of golf cart batteries with a DC
>series or Sep Ex EV drive, then we would have EV's right
>now that would be cost competitive with ICE's.
>
>>
>> Also, the vast numbers of commercially successful EVs
>>(fork lifts, buses, trains, etc) which are DC owe the vast
>>numbers to the fact they have been around for decades, if
>>not a centruy.
>
>Yes they are. So why change? A DC motor can be as eff
>as any AC one, especially if you need torque which we do.
>And a DC controller will be a little more eff and will be
>lower cost by at least a factor of 2.
>Now please tell me again why AC with it's costly high
>voltage battery pack/controllers is a better EV drive?
>If one wants to be successful, one uses the proven,
>cost effective tech. That's what I'm doing.
>The cheapest AC/motor/controller I could find was $4k
>while a more powerful DC system cost under $1k.
>As a manufacture has to get at least 2x's it's costs
>to build, it will cause an EV to be $6k more just for the
>privilge to say you use AC. You are not going to be
>successful with those thought processes.
>
>Most, if not all, that are currently being
>>produced are either looking at AC drives or offering
>>vehicles using AC drives. Since the advent of economic and
>>reliable power electronic devices and information
>>processors, the shift from DC to AC motor systems has been
>>noticeable, industry wide.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, I love the DC commutator motor. What
>>a great machine. I also respect the AC systems a great
>>deal.
>
>I don't respect AC motors with the exception of BLDC
>PM disc type motors that are eff, easy, low cost to build
>as are my version of their controllers. But until I can
>build mine, a series/sep-ex are by far the best EV motors
>you can buy and what I'll use for now.
>Jerry Dycus
>>
>> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
> All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and
>get things done faster.
>
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
--- End Message ---
