EV Digest 5930
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AC vs DC?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Did someone say cheap EV!! Re: Cheapest not most efficient ev
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Window comparator for BMS
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers (and other references)
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery Pricing
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Voltage rating on Heinemann GJ1P series
by Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) electrical energy storage systems new vs old pdf
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Window comparator for BMS
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery Pricing
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery Pricing
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers (and other references)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Window comparator for BMS
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) excellent comparison in many units of different energy contents of
fuels and battery types all on one easy page.
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Battery Pricing
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Voltage rating on Heinemann GJ1P series
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC vs DC?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If a failure is known to happen one in a hundred thousand or even million
times. What happens to a large corporation when they go to court and defend
the
lawsuit. If you plan on building hundreds of thousands or millions. A well
run corporation knows to avoid this as much as possible.
It is unfortunate but building the best or cheapest is not today's survival
for business as say 75 years ago. It is the attorneys who many times have the
final say today. No one on this list might do any different if you were the
one to lose everything you own.
There are a lot of factors that must be considered that individuals and
smaller companies do not deal with on a daily bases. I am not saying this is
why
the major manufacturers have decided to used AC motors in the production
electric vehicles. It is a fact though the larger the corporation the more
risks
are reviewed by the attorneys on both sides of the law suit.
A recall does not just happen when someone is ran over or killed.
If you could not build it once and make a profit could you afford to recall
all the vehicles and change them?
Don
In a message dated 9/27/2006 9:58:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL
PROTECTED]
writes:
Hi Jeff and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
>Let's look at the last opinion expressed by Mr. Hart. Why
>would one think that GM, Toyota, Ford, Azure, ISE, etc
>would NOT use experts on EV design for their EV and HEV
>products which use AC motors? I believe these companies
>have some of the brightest minds in the world designing and
>engineering these modern electric drive systems.
Bright minds?? Were they successful? Why?
Because they built expensive, gold plated EV's that
never would be cost effective. No? Also they have little EV
experience!!! We have hundreds of times more on this list!!
Now had they built a real mini pickup as an EV that
didn't weigh so much, more aero so they could use a much
smaller battery pack of golf cart batteries with a DC series
or Sep Ex EV drive, then we would have EV's right now that
would be cost competitive with ICE's.
>
> Also, the vast numbers of commercially successful EVs
>(fork lifts, buses, trains, etc) which are DC owe the vast
>numbers to the fact they have been around for decades, if
>not a centruy.
Yes they are. So why change? A DC motor can be as eff
as any AC one, especially if you need torque which we do.
And a DC controller will be a little more eff and will be
lower cost by at least a factor of 2.
Now please tell me again why AC with it's costly high
voltage battery pack/controllers is a better EV drive?
If one wants to be successful, one uses the proven,
cost effective tech. That's what I'm doing.
The cheapest AC/motor/controller I could find was $4k
while a more powerful DC system cost under $1k.
As a manufacture has to get at least 2x's it's costs
to build, it will cause an EV to be $6k more just for the
privilge to say you use AC. You are not going to be
successful with those thought processes.
Most, if not all, that are currently being
>produced are either looking at AC drives or offering
>vehicles using AC drives. Since the advent of economic and
>reliable power electronic devices and information
>processors, the shift from DC to AC motor systems has been
>noticeable, industry wide.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I love the DC commutator motor. What
>a great machine. I also respect the AC systems a great
>deal.
I don't respect AC motors with the exception of BLDC
PM disc type motors that are eff, easy, low cost to build as
are my version of their controllers. But until I can build
mine, a series/sep-ex are by far the best EV motors you can
buy and what I'll use for now.
Jerry Dycus
>
> Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I love low-cost engineering problems, because, well I can't do high-cost
ones.. but one thing you learn is there is cheap, and there is
cost-effective, you want the latter, because only cheap will end up
costing you more money. used batteries at the junk yard will work, but
not for very long.
Whenever you talk low-cost, this always involves used parts.
A motorcycle is the way to go for low cost. no reverse needed, small
motor, small batteries.
Jack
jerryd wrote:
Hi Dave and all,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Did someone say cheap EV!! Re: Cheapest not
most efficient ev
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:55:23 -0700 (PDT)
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
from something dead like a VW bug one, any series motor
of 3 hp or more like 2 from golfcarts or a forklift motor
for a
Jerry
I misread you comment, but that got me thinking about
another approach to the NEV 3 wheeler. I started thinking
about 2 wheel motors in the front without any steering
mechanism. Use the two motors to steer like a Big mowing
deck, like Steve C. uses. The downside is you'd need two
motors and two controllers, but they could be lighter duty.
The rear wheel is just a caster to keep your butt off the
ground. Might not be great on the highway, but would be
excellent for tight parking. Almost zero turning radius. Or
has this already been shown to be a bad idea?
It's excellent for tight manuvering like inside a
home but once over about 10 mph, things can go very bad,
very quickly so you really don't want to go that way.
A MC front wheel with a golf cart transaxle makes a
great up to 50mph EV at a very low cost would be a much
better bet.
And as a MC, you are not limited to the restrited
areas a NEV must stay in. I'd never build an NEV, rather the
GC trke or a EV bike/trike instead so I can go anywhere
legally. One of my EV bike size trike had a 50 mile range at
20 mph!
Jerry Dycus
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gotcha. In this case it would probably be better to have a magnetic
compass, as using just points to calculate direction may not work well when
moving slow (like in a parking lot).
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: September 27, 2006 1:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
I know, but if you want the map to orient itself to the direction you're
facing, then you need a compass or something equivalent. When system first
starts up, I suppose it can "remember" the direction it was pointed from
last time, then re-compute as it get differential coordinates.
Don Cameron wrote:
> A compass is not needed for plotting points on a screen.
>
> The screen has x/y coordinates. The GPS gives points back in x & y.
> In UTM, higher X values are up, meaning north (above the equator).
> Higher Y values mean east.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: September 27, 2006 11:45 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
>
>> The other alternative is to question what use is the compass anyways?
>>
>>
> Think computerized mapping. Most of the time the map is oriented so
> that your direction of travel is up on the screen.
>
>> Don
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.geocities.com/cor_van_de_water/USE/window_comparater_BMS.gif
I changed the offset to 7.5V from the + input to reduce
asymmetry in LED currents with battery voltages between
10 and 14V, max LED current is around 4mA, good for a
high brightness efficient red LED.
(I have a bag full, let me know if you need some)
With an opamp that has very low standby current,
(well below 1 mA at 12V) this circuit will draw around
5 mA constantly, 12mA peak when the battery goes to 15V.
The opamp needs to be able to drive the output close
to the supply voltage, less than 1V preferred.
(5mA is approx 4Ah per month, this is around the
self-discharge current of good EV batteries so it
nothing to worry about)
NOTE: I have not tested this circuit yet - use at
your own risk, best build a breadboard version first
before ordering production quantities ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Window comparator for BMS
Mike,
This is rather easy with discrete components, though there
may be more elegant integrated versions.
The basic premise is that you should start with a voltage
amplifier and a configurable offset voltage, for example an
overall 3x gain amplifier having an offset at 12V that makes
its output zero when the battery is at 12V and have an output
of +3V when the battery is one volt higher at 13V and an
output of -3V when the battery is one volt lower at 11V.
Then all you need is a Red LED in a diode bridge to light up
when the output is about + or - 3V (1.5V for the LED and 0.7V
for each of the two low-voltage diodes in the path)
Obviously we need a resistor in series with the LED to limit
the current, as the output of the opamp will increase with
larger difference from the 12V offset.
To avoid separate symmetrical voltages to power the opamp,
the whole operation can be shifted to work at an offset
around 5V and use a resistor divider to measure the battery
voltage, while the battery also powers this circuit.
Let me know if you want a sketch of such a circuit, it should
need only:
- one opamp
- one zener of approx 5V
- one red LED
- four diodes (or one low voltage bridge rectifier)
- five resistors
If the zener has the proper temperature profile that it gets
a lower voltage at high temps with the same percentage as the
battery voltage changes over temperature then this circuit's
indication will even be temp compensated.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:41 AM
To: EVDL
Subject: Window comparator for BMS
I'm looking to build a set of window comparators for the display side
of my bms. The older ACP cars have one led per battery. The led lights
when the battery's voltage goes above 13v. It gets brighter the further
above 13v it goes.
The same is true during discharge. The Led comes on at about 11 volts
and gets brighter the further below 11 volts it goes.
Both of these functions apply to the same led. The variable brightness
portion of the circuit I don't grasp as windoow comparators I've found
are solidly on or off.
Ideas?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
THANKS Karl!
Emerson's site is perfect for our high school engineering meetings once a
month.
Pedroman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl M. Bernard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers (and other
references)
For specific info about AC control, you might try looking at MicroChip's
Application Notes at their "AC Induction Motor Overview":
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1500
Freescale (another chip company) has some good AC 3-Phase notes here:
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=02nQXGrrlPglzQMszY
NEC (Europe) has some more App Notes:
http://www.ee.nec.de/applications/industrial/motor_control/030_general_motor_control/020_3_phase_asynchronous/index.html
For a decent overview about electric motors and other mechanical topics,
you can download free pdf's from Emerson's website:
http://www.emerson-ept.com/eptroot/public/schools/PT.htm
All Titles:
Basic Engineering
Bearings
Belt and Chain Drives
Adjustable Speed Drives
Clutches and Brakes
Couplings and U Joints
Gearing
Motors
The "Motors" document includes sections for:
DC MOTORS
AC MOTORS
SERVOMOTORS
STEP MOTORS
MINIATURE MOTORS
GEARMOTORS
MOTOR ENCLOSURES
MOTOR PROTECTION
MOTOR EFFICIENCIES
INDUCED BEARING CURRENTS
Hope that helps,
Karl Bernard
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers
Try Electric Motors and Control Techniques (Paperback) ISBN 0070240124
I got it from Amazon for about 17.00 and it covers ac & dc in some detail.
good primer
Pedroman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:31 PM
Subject: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers
Can anyone recommend books or websites on an introduction to AC motors
and
controllers. I am technically capable so no problem with basic
electronics,
microcontrollers and mathematics.
thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jukka,
The photos show that too many things are different, such
as door handles (not the halfround moons, but they "closed"
this are and inserted an ordinary straight handle right
throught that design) and other features which show that
they took one of their cars, scaled to Smart size,
then took the Smart styling and literally inserted their
own standard components into the unique Smart design.
Certainly no licensed Smart production and BTW - if this
would be a licensed Smart then they would now REALLY be
in trouble for importing it into a market where Smart is
already selling.
Manufacturers are very sensitive to limit the geographic
area where a license is allowed to be used.
But your findings could be interesting nonetheless - they
may not be fully aware in what wasp nest they have gotten
with their attempts to do Ebay sales.
Unfortunately this is not the same as selling bright LEDs
from a far east location, there is something more involved
with getting a car on the road.
Their attempts to circumvent the systems to dupe some
Ebay buyers into spending a lot of money without getting
what they were promised is still a big no-no, showing
lack of integrity and well-meaning, which is required to
gain my trust and support.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jukka Järvinen
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
Cor van de Water kirjoitti:
> Evan,
>
> They can't get it right after they copied the looks of a Smart,
> which is a very severe infringement and any time they do
> establish a business in the US trying to sell these fancy
> looking golf cars, DaimlerChrysler will sue the heck out of them.
Have we got a confirmation that they do NOT have a permission to make
this vehicle in China ? You can buy BMWs and Audis and Toyotas in China
with completely different name and logo. They are licensed to make for
China markets. This might be the case here too.
I've decided to arrange a meeting with this company for my next China
trip.(few weeks to go). Let's see if they agree :)
If I can get near this EV I will shoot my flash disk full and share them
in my private site.
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIMÄKI
jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If a failure is known to happen one in a hundred thousand or
> even million times. What happens to a large corporation
> when they go to court and defend the lawsuit. If you plan
> on building hundreds of thousands or millions. A well
> run corporation knows to avoid this as much as possible.
One word for you: Pinto. ;^>
It is well documented that Ford was aware of simple, low-cost measures
that would have dramatically reduced or eliminated the risk associated
with this vehicle's fuel tank, yet those measures were not implemented
because the cost of doing so was determined to be greater than the cost
associated with the expected lawsuits. What hurt Ford most in this case
was not the unsafe design of the vehicle, but that they allowed their
cost-benefit analysis involving the value of human lives to be
documented...
It is unfortunate, but the reality is that what drives corporations is
profit. Yes, the risks will be carefully considered, but at the end of
the day if it is deemed to be more costly to install AC drives in every
vehicle than to pay out a lawsuit or two per X units sold with DC
drives, then the DC drives will be installed.
Having said that, let me observe that I do believe that AC drives strike
me as having worthwhile advantages in a vehicle built for Joe or Jane Q.
Public that would justify their use over presently available DC drives.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
I've having a "fun" time dealing with my Insurance Co after my fire.
So, anyone know where I can get pricing on 30AH flooded NiCd cells? or
90AH LiIon cells?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
Sure. SG-Photo will sell them to you for $10 each. That is what I would
consider as a fair price.
However it's an interesting insurance question: Is this the value you
paid for them, or the amount it will cost to make your loss whole?
CZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--------- Original Message --------
> The recent discussion on Heinemann breakers caught my interest.
> Has anyone else used these breakers at above rated voltage. Comments?
>
Obviously, the safe answer is to not go above the ratings. But most of us
do push the limits with parts like the Albright contactors.
I haven't really ventured into the high-voltage parts market yet (besides
chargers and controllers). It's in my near-future plans to offer such
components to the general EV crowd. I'm really curious what others are
using and feeling comfortable with on a safety level.
Plasma Boy ... let's hear what you have to say!
-Ryan
__________________________________________________________________
http://www.evsource.com - Professional EV components and resources
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
interesting reading
http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/ei/Public/publications/EIWP01-04.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll breadboard it right up!
I will need 28 of them, so simple rules the day!
BTW this circuit will be fet by an optocoupler as the pack voltage
will be isolated.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/cor_van_de_water/USE/window_comparater_BMS.gif
>
> I changed the offset to 7.5V from the + input to reduce
> asymmetry in LED currents with battery voltages between
> 10 and 14V, max LED current is around 4mA, good for a
> high brightness efficient red LED.
> (I have a bag full, let me know if you need some)
>
> With an opamp that has very low standby current,
> (well below 1 mA at 12V) this circuit will draw around
> 5 mA constantly, 12mA peak when the battery goes to 15V.
> The opamp needs to be able to drive the output close
> to the supply voltage, less than 1V preferred.
>
> (5mA is approx 4Ah per month, this is around the
> self-discharge current of good EV batteries so it
> nothing to worry about)
>
> NOTE: I have not tested this circuit yet - use at
> your own risk, best build a breadboard version first
> before ordering production quantities ;-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:20 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Window comparator for BMS
>
>
> Mike,
>
> This is rather easy with discrete components, though there
> may be more elegant integrated versions.
>
> The basic premise is that you should start with a voltage
> amplifier and a configurable offset voltage, for example an
> overall 3x gain amplifier having an offset at 12V that makes
> its output zero when the battery is at 12V and have an output
> of +3V when the battery is one volt higher at 13V and an
> output of -3V when the battery is one volt lower at 11V.
>
> Then all you need is a Red LED in a diode bridge to light up
> when the output is about + or - 3V (1.5V for the LED and 0.7V
> for each of the two low-voltage diodes in the path)
>
> Obviously we need a resistor in series with the LED to limit
> the current, as the output of the opamp will increase with
> larger difference from the 12V offset.
>
> To avoid separate symmetrical voltages to power the opamp,
> the whole operation can be shifted to work at an offset
> around 5V and use a resistor divider to measure the battery
> voltage, while the battery also powers this circuit.
>
> Let me know if you want a sketch of such a circuit, it should
> need only:
> - one opamp
> - one zener of approx 5V
> - one red LED
> - four diodes (or one low voltage bridge rectifier)
> - five resistors
>
> If the zener has the proper temperature profile that it gets
> a lower voltage at high temps with the same percentage as the
> battery voltage changes over temperature then this circuit's
> indication will even be temp compensated.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:41 AM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: Window comparator for BMS
>
>
> I'm looking to build a set of window comparators for the display side
> of my bms. The older ACP cars have one led per battery. The led lights
> when the battery's voltage goes above 13v. It gets brighter the further
> above 13v it goes.
>
> The same is true during discharge. The Led comes on at about 11 volts
> and gets brighter the further below 11 volts it goes.
>
> Both of these functions apply to the same led. The variable brightness
> portion of the circuit I don't grasp as windoow comparators I've found
> are solidly on or off.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:03 PM 9/27/2006, Christopher Zach wrote:
Sure. SG-Photo will sell them to you for $10 each. That is what I
would consider as a fair price.
However it's an interesting insurance question: Is this the value
you paid for them, or the amount it will cost to make your loss whole?
In my case it is "Replacement Value" insurance. So they will pay to
replace the items at the current prices.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to barge in on this thread, but these batteries are for an EV?
There is a current (meaning available to the hobbyist) solution for using
LiIon batteries in an EV?
And if so, how many of those batteries would it take at $10 a piece?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Pricing
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> I've having a "fun" time dealing with my Insurance Co after my fire.
> So, anyone know where I can get pricing on 30AH flooded NiCd cells? or
> 90AH LiIon cells?
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
Sure. SG-Photo will sell them to you for $10 each. That is what I would
consider as a fair price.
However it's an interesting insurance question: Is this the value you
paid for them, or the amount it will cost to make your loss whole?
CZ
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Try looking into a HIP4086 chip. It's AC up to 95v. I've used the
HIP4081 in our H-Bridges for years, from Intersil.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> THANKS Karl!
> Emerson's site is perfect for our high school engineering meetings
once a
> month.
>
> Pedroman
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karl M. Bernard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers (and
other
> references)
>
>
> > For specific info about AC control, you might try looking at
MicroChip's
> > Application Notes at their "AC Induction Motor Overview":
> >
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1500
> >
> > Freescale (another chip company) has some good AC 3-Phase notes here:
> >
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=02nQXGrrlPglzQMszY
> >
> > NEC (Europe) has some more App Notes:
> >
http://www.ee.nec.de/applications/industrial/motor_control/030_general_motor_control/020_3_phase_asynchronous/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> > For a decent overview about electric motors and other mechanical
topics,
> > you can download free pdf's from Emerson's website:
> > http://www.emerson-ept.com/eptroot/public/schools/PT.htm
> >
> > All Titles:
> >
> > Basic Engineering
> > Bearings
> > Belt and Chain Drives
> > Adjustable Speed Drives
> > Clutches and Brakes
> > Couplings and U Joints
> > Gearing
> > Motors
> >
> > The "Motors" document includes sections for:
> > DC MOTORS
> > AC MOTORS
> > SERVOMOTORS
> > STEP MOTORS
> > MINIATURE MOTORS
> > GEARMOTORS
> > MOTOR ENCLOSURES
> > MOTOR PROTECTION
> > MOTOR EFFICIENCIES
> > INDUCED BEARING CURRENTS
> >
> >
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> >
> > Karl Bernard
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers
> >
> >
> > Try Electric Motors and Control Techniques (Paperback) ISBN
0070240124
> > I got it from Amazon for about 17.00 and it covers ac & dc in some
detail.
> > good primer
> >
> > Pedroman
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:31 PM
> > Subject: Books or References on AC Motors and Controllers
> >
> >
> >> Can anyone recommend books or websites on an introduction to AC
motors
> >> and
> >> controllers. I am technically capable so no problem with basic
> >> electronics,
> >> microcontrollers and mathematics.
> >>
> >> thanks
> >> Don
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
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Cor,
Cost not withstanding, a dual color led could be sub'd for the 5
led/diode parts producing less parts and a smaller population.
I plan on smt parts for this.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/cor_van_de_water/USE/window_comparater_BMS.gif
>
> I changed the offset to 7.5V from the + input to reduce
> asymmetry in LED currents with battery voltages between
> 10 and 14V, max LED current is around 4mA, good for a
> high brightness efficient red LED.
> (I have a bag full, let me know if you need some)
>
> With an opamp that has very low standby current,
> (well below 1 mA at 12V) this circuit will draw around
> 5 mA constantly, 12mA peak when the battery goes to 15V.
> The opamp needs to be able to drive the output close
> to the supply voltage, less than 1V preferred.
>
> (5mA is approx 4Ah per month, this is around the
> self-discharge current of good EV batteries so it
> nothing to worry about)
>
> NOTE: I have not tested this circuit yet - use at
> your own risk, best build a breadboard version first
> before ordering production quantities ;-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:20 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Window comparator for BMS
>
>
> Mike,
>
> This is rather easy with discrete components, though there
> may be more elegant integrated versions.
>
> The basic premise is that you should start with a voltage
> amplifier and a configurable offset voltage, for example an
> overall 3x gain amplifier having an offset at 12V that makes
> its output zero when the battery is at 12V and have an output
> of +3V when the battery is one volt higher at 13V and an
> output of -3V when the battery is one volt lower at 11V.
>
> Then all you need is a Red LED in a diode bridge to light up
> when the output is about + or - 3V (1.5V for the LED and 0.7V
> for each of the two low-voltage diodes in the path)
>
> Obviously we need a resistor in series with the LED to limit
> the current, as the output of the opamp will increase with
> larger difference from the 12V offset.
>
> To avoid separate symmetrical voltages to power the opamp,
> the whole operation can be shifted to work at an offset
> around 5V and use a resistor divider to measure the battery
> voltage, while the battery also powers this circuit.
>
> Let me know if you want a sketch of such a circuit, it should
> need only:
> - one opamp
> - one zener of approx 5V
> - one red LED
> - four diodes (or one low voltage bridge rectifier)
> - five resistors
>
> If the zener has the proper temperature profile that it gets
> a lower voltage at high temps with the same percentage as the
> battery voltage changes over temperature then this circuit's
> indication will even be temp compensated.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:41 AM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: Window comparator for BMS
>
>
> I'm looking to build a set of window comparators for the display side
> of my bms. The older ACP cars have one led per battery. The led lights
> when the battery's voltage goes above 13v. It gets brighter the further
> above 13v it goes.
>
> The same is true during discharge. The Led comes on at about 11 volts
> and gets brighter the further below 11 volts it goes.
>
> Both of these functions apply to the same led. The variable brightness
> portion of the circuit I don't grasp as windoow comparators I've found
> are solidly on or off.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Mike
>
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excellent comparison in many units of different energy contents of fuels
and battery types all on one easy page.
http://au.geocities.com/daveclarkecb/EnergyUnits.html#Energy%20content%20of%20fuels
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At 04:32 PM 9/27/2006, Michael Trefry wrote:
Sorry to barge in on this thread, but these batteries are for an EV?
There is a current (meaning available to the hobbyist) solution for using
LiIon batteries in an EV?
And if so, how many of those batteries would it take at $10 a piece?
The $10 batteries are NiCd, not LiIon. These are 34AH @ 1.2V flooded
NiCd cells.
It takes as many as you need. 100 for 120V at 34AH, 200 for 240V at
34AH, 200 for 120V at 68AH, etc...
I'm still trying to find the current pricing on ThunderSky 90AH
cells. (Not that I really want any, but I do need the current price for them.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Hello Ryan,
Go to a wholesale electrical supply house and pick up a component catalog
for circuit breakers and molded case switches that look like a enclose
circuit breaker, but does not have the magnetic trips in it. You can install
a trip size of 300 amp to 1200 amp into the same molded case.
You have to get up into the Type M Frame Thermal-Magnetic Molded case
switches either in manual or automatic that will have a continuous rating of
300 to 1200 amp at 250 VDC rating.
The whole sale cost on these types of enclose switches range from $2500.00
for the 300 amp unit to $5000.00 for the 1200 amp unit.
The next best thing to do, is to go to a savage company that is dropping a
building and see if you can find a type L, M, or N frame circuit breaker.
To convert it to a switch, you can remove the front cover and remove the
trips and install a solid bar kit, or make a bar yourself.
That why I use the very outstanding CableForm contactors as a disconnect
between the batteries and controller circuit. I Only use a Bussman Co.
Limitron 200,000 amp interrupting fuse in the circuit.
These contactors now have been going over 30 years and the contacts today
are still highly polish. I had to disconnect one time when my accelerator
circuit would not shut down. Just had to wipe the blacking off the
contacts.
A pair of these contactors which are specially design for EV's run over
$1000.00 factory cost. But that is the last contactor you ever have to buy.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: Voltage rating on Heinemann GJ1P series
> --------- Original Message --------
> > The recent discussion on Heinemann breakers caught my interest.
>
> > Has anyone else used these breakers at above rated voltage. Comments?
> >
>
> Obviously, the safe answer is to not go above the ratings. But most of us
> do push the limits with parts like the Albright contactors.
>
> I haven't really ventured into the high-voltage parts market yet (besides
> chargers and controllers). It's in my near-future plans to offer such
> components to the general EV crowd. I'm really curious what others are
> using and feeling comfortable with on a safety level.
>
> Plasma Boy ... let's hear what you have to say!
>
> -Ryan
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> http://www.evsource.com - Professional EV components and resources
>
>
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Is their significant difference in power to weight performance of ac vs
dc?
Also could a home builder build a geared ac controller using external
brushes that was synched to the crankshaft of an ac motor and thus get
around expensive silicon and yet keeping the fast wearing carbon dust
emitting brushes out of the motor itself?
The mechanical controller could be cheaper right and simpler for a home
builder to build and just linked to the crankshaft like a camshaft is to
a gas engine.
Well, there are quite a few. The brushes on a DC motor eventually wear
down. This means that eventually they need to be replaced, and your
motor
ends up with carbon dust floating around inside it.
This makes it harder to build a sealed motor, which means that you run
a
risk of getting foriegn objects inside the motor (perhaps rare, but
possible)
So AC motors have an advantage in lower maintenance and higher
reliability. Granted Auto Makers make their money on
repairs/maintenance,
but it has to at least last through the warranty period.
AC controllers can also have better control over what is happening
inside
the motor, so you can potentially get higher efficiency over a wider
RPM
range.
The flip side is that AC motor controllers are more complicated and
require more of the expensive high power silicon (since the comutation
is
done in silicon rather than at the brushes). This makes the
controllers
more expensive.
Theoretically, AC motors are simpler and cheaper to build than DC
motors,
though not significantly so. Because AC motors don't usually have to
worry about carbon build up, they can be sealed and many of the EV
specific AC motors are even water cooled (somewhat more difficult to do
on
DC motors). This tends to make the motors MORE expensive than DC
motors,
but helps improve reliability.
And do you need an external inverter with something like the
Brushless DC
if
it's simply a Syncronous AC? Or do you not need a inverter with the
Syncronous AC? And if either is the case then why differentiate the
motors
at all????
Nobody has to answer this. I just really need to bone up on electrical
engineering.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
Michael Trefry wrote:
Please excuse my ignorance, I'm just trying to understand.
How can DC be the same thing as AC?
If I'm not mistaken, DC is direct current, meaning a steady stream of
electrons going in a single direction, while AC is alternating meaning
that
it's constantly going back and forth. Right?
There is no +/- with AC right?
All motors are AC. There has to be AC in the coils, or the motor is
very
inefficient and awkward. What you think of as a DC motor is really an
AC
motor with a mechanical inverter (the commutator and brushes) that
converts the incoming DC power into AC.
Surprising, but true!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
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The two sources that I have found to have fairly accurate forecasts
http://www.kcbs.com/topic/weather.php?submitted=1&pands=palo+alto%2C+ca
http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/USCA0830.html
state this Saturday is going to be typical SF Pennisula Fall
weather: 70 F Fair and mild = perfect weather for the Silicon
Valley Rally.
Map:
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?newFL=Use+Address+Below&addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=94301
Caltrain from SF:
Stanford 30.8 miles, 100 Embarcadero Road, Palo Alto
(within walking distance from station to EVent)
EV charging at the EVent: 14-50 40amp 208 VAC, 6-20 20 amp 208 VAC,
5-20 110 VAC.
See you there :-)
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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