EV Digest 5941
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: (was: CE on TV)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Reliability vs. Repairability... Re: AC vs DC
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BB600 update 473 miles
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Hot, stinky motor. What does it mean?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Adaptor plate for 1999 VW Beetle
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: (was: CE on TV)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: DC-DC Converter not working
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Venturi Fetish in the news (pics)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: emeter power supply
by Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: air conditioning for ev's
by Dennis Hogan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Hot, stinky motor. What does it mean?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: DC-DC Converter not working
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: emeter power supply
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: air conditioning for ev's
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
When I see Cor tomorrow I'll give him a big smack across the head just
for you Paul ;)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You really don't need to air your kill files to the list. That is both
> immature *and* off topic.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
> On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:39 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> > /delete noconfirm message_subject contains "Why lie"
> >
> > You are no longer being heard, fellows. Take it some place else.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've fixed brushed controllers and AC controllers, both without
schematics. It's mostly knowing what each circuit does, what the
failure mode of the parts are and finding them and replacing them.
Oddly the worst part of repairing a Curtis is the end caps. They have
to be repotted to do it right. Siliconing in the old part is an option,
but they can leak. Leaky dc systems really mess up the conductive
hardware inside. It can ruin the silicone grease that conducts the heat
from the hardware to the case, making it run hotter. That's why
heatsinking the case on some units won't help.
Anyway, I think it mostly matters what you have the skill or cash for.
Philosopically it's probably more important to get into something that
does not run on fuel as it is to pick ac or dc. There is a whole
universe of things to get use to that are the same between ac and dc
cars. Batterys, charging, driving style, range, public perceptions etc.
Pick what's easy to get help and parts for and jump on it!
Mike
--- Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just fishing around for opinions and experiences here...
>
> In my observations, DC powered conversions tend to have more
> reliability
> issues than AC powered (more frequent break-downs), but AC powered
> vehicles seem to be MUCH more difficult to repair when they do break
> down. I guess it is sort of six of one, half a dozen of another, but
> what's the opinion/experiences of others on the list?
>
> Nick
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Cor van de Water wrote:
> >> Due to brush limitations, the DC implementations tend to
> >> use a voltage below 200V
> >
> > Most EV DC motors are derived from fork lift motors. Fork lifts use
> low
> > voltage packs. So, their motors are always built low voltage (like
> > 38-72vdc). EVers routinely use them at 2x rated voltage without
> > significant problems. But not surprisingly, trying to use them at
> 3x or
> > 4x rated voltage starts to cause problems.
> >
> > There are certainly no problems designing brushed motors over 200v.
>
> > There are millions of mass-produced 240v DC motors in use all over
> the
> > world. Many are built in both 120v and 240v versions (to satisfy US
> and
> > European markets), and there is no indication that the 240v version
>
> > costs more or is less reliable (or has any efficiency difference,
> for
> > that matter).
> >
> > If you are going to run at 240vdc, you need a motor that is
> *designed*
> > for that voltage -- not a 72v forklift motor! There are plenty of
> > railway, bus, and large industrial DC motors built for high
> voltages;
> > they just don't happen to be as easy to get surplus.
> >
> >> Another reason for production EVs to use AC may be the
> >> absence of brushes, or simply because they expected that in
> >> high volume the simpler AC motors would result in an overall
> >> lower cost solution, as prices of electronics tend to decrease.
> >> Or because they were already familiar with AC, as in the AC
> alternator
> >> - no car has a DC alternator.
> >
> > I think you're correct. If you don't know anything about DC motors,
> you
> > assume brushes are unreliable; so you try to design them out. If
> you
> > only look at list prices for AC vs. DC motors of a given
> horsepower, the
> > AC ones are cheaper (because they are built in higher volumes). If
> you
> > don't know much about electronics, you'll assume that it always
> gets
> > cheaper (PCs did, didn't they?)
> >
> > These are all naive assumptions. But, they are probably what led
> the
> > inexperienced auto company engineers to favor AC.
> >
> > PS: *100%* of the motors in automobiles have brushes. Even the
> > alternators have slip rings! If brushes are so bad, why do the auto
>
> > companies use them universally? Why have they never used a
> brushless DC
> > or AC motor with inverter anywhere in any car (except their EVs)?
> >
> >> Also the perceived risk of a "full on" DC control may have
> >> caused them to sway to AC
> >
> > Perhaps; but no real DC EV has this problem with "full on" failure
> > modes; it's always designed out of any production EV. You only find
> it
> > in hobby projects or EVs designed by tiny inexperienced companies.
> >
> >> or because the professional suppliers were more in the AC camp
> >> than the DC suppliers.
> >
> > That's possible. If you go to a company that specializes in AC
> motors,
> > of course that is what you will get. To a man with a hammer, every
> > problem looks like a nail.
> >
> >> NOTE that in the Prius, the AC motor is entirely in a splash-
> >> lubrication oil bath to remove heat from the motor as well as
> >> to provide lubrication and removal of wear products.
> >> That may be difficult with a DC motor's commutator & brushes.
> >
> > Starter motors and alternators have brushes, and they are used
> under the
> > hoods of cars, and have no particular problems with their brushes.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MIke- I look forward to seeing your car tomorrow. I picked up my 07
Yaris in LA this morning and will drive it to the rally to get
feedback on my conversion. I was quite impressed with the car, I got
39MPG at 75-80MPH on a new motor!
Mark
On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:50 PM, Mike Phillips wrote:
This afternoon I checked the torque of all of the 10-32 redtop
BB600's.
They were all fine. Spot checked a bunch of the 10mm green tops and
they were fine too.
So the new pack has 473 miles on it as of this message. The Rally in
Palo Alto and the weekend in general should add another 100 miles. I'm
driving this thing like an ice.
So far the untreated/unplated copper bars are clean except for some
tiny specks. So this weekend they get coated with the "A Special WW"
compound like the redtop busbars were.
The thermal probe, a cheap lcd unit, is reading in the mid 30C range.
Once it read 42.7C which is 107F. That's still under the 120F in the
manual. The box has no ventilation. So it seems that other than hot
summer days the pack will run in a decent temperature range.
The LED monitoring system is being worked on as we speak. It looks
like
there will be 28 leds, each representing 9 cells. That's 252 cells
total. Maybe the LCD setup would be better. We'll see.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm starting to get a rather interesting smell which
I'm fairly certain is from my motor.
It happens between 30-40, and generally on an uphill
stretch.
I've tried to keep first gear just under 40, as Lynn
(similar vehicle) had a tach, and found that this
would keep the RPMs under 6000. (8" ADC).
It seems my options are:
a) pull the car out of service for a week or more, and
get the motor to a local motor rebuilder for
refurbishing.
b) Order a new Netgain, and pull the car down for a
day when the motor comes in.
c) Continue to use the vehicle until the motor fails
entirely, then worry about it.
Any idea what I'll be diagnosed with?
Thanks!
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I am trying to find an adapter plate for a 1999 Volks Wagen Beetle 2.0L
engine. I have the 02J transmission with code DQZ. This match what I
found in the service manual. Here are the number stamped on the
transmission case
DQZ024088
64 0863
I have called ElectroAutomotive twice; once last week, once this week.
I left a message both times; no return message :(
I have just emailed Don Cameron about his adapter plate maker, also.
Any help would be appreciated!
Kind Regards,
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul,
The whole thread should not have been on this list in the first place.
My statement below was a hint to indicate that everyone by now has tuned
out, so they better take the thread where it belongs.
Oh well,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Paul G.
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: (was: CE on TV)
You really don't need to air your kill files to the list. That is both
immature *and* off topic.
Paul "neon" G.
On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:39 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> /delete noconfirm message_subject contains "Why lie"
>
> You are no longer being heard, fellows. Take it some place else.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote:
>So, I replaced that battery and got a little bigger one
>just to start over, but this new battery is doing similar
>things, just not dropping as much.
You have a leaking tap and instead of fixing the leak,
you bought a bigger mop.
One easy way to test if you have DC/DC is to start your
car, then disconnect the aux battery.
If the DC/DC is working, the 12V is maintained and the
car continues to work without faltering.
If the car dies immediately, your DC/DC is dead.
Measure the input to the DC/DC and (if there is one or
more fuses protecting the DC/DC) measure the voltage at
each side of the fuse.
If you see about 14V out of the DC/DC then something is
broken down the line from there to the battery.
If you see 120V into the DC/DC and around 12V out, that
means the DC/DC itself is dead as you are seeing the
loaded battery voltage.
If you see no 120V into the DC/DC that means it is not
connected to your pack.
If the DC/DC itself is dead, dependent on your warranty
you may want to open it (after switching the car off!)
and check if there are internal fuses or broken wiring.
>From there, it depends on your electronics skills or
the ease of getting a new one to replace it.
Several on this list are able to repair electronics.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chris Sutton
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: DC-DC Converter not working
I'm not sure my DC to DC Converter is working.
I had a small 12v battery I was using for a couple of months and last
week when driving, my 12v meter was showing the voltage slowly
dropping as I went home. When my vacuum pump went on it would blip
down to 10v, but when the voltage came back it was a little less each
time.
Also, when the main relay was engaged to let power flow to the
controller, I would notice about a 1/2v drop.
I put the 12v battery on a charger overnight, but the next day it
performed about the same.
I almost did not make it home one day as the voltage in the battery
was down to about 10v and the vacuum pump was barely working and
without vacuum stopping was much harder.
So, I replaced that battery and got a little bigger one just to start
over, but this new battery is doing similar things, just not dropping
as much.
With no load on the battery and the key on (which is turnning on the
DC-DC Converter, because the red light is light on the converter), the
12v guage says 12.0. Turning on the parking lights brings it down to
about 11.5. Turning on the headlights down to 11.25. Vacuum pump
goes on we blip down to 10ish.
The voltage going into the DC to DC is reading at full pack voltage (120v
ish).
If I unhook the output from the 12v battery, the light on the
controller fades out and there is no voltage reading on the output
from the controller. If I hook up the output to the battery, I show
the battery voltage on the output of the controller.
How can I test to make sure the DC-DC is working, and shouldn't it be
able to keep up with the demands of the car?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chuck,
You may have given me a clue, when you said your batteries were deliver with
low electrolyte.
If I remember right, is that the water to acid ratio is about 5 parts of
water to 3 parts of water.
Water being 1.0 sg and sulfuric acid is 1.8. Adding 5 (five parts of water)
to 1.8+1.8+1.8 (three parts of acid) = 10.4
Divide 10.4 by eight parts = 1.3 SG electrolyte while its hot. When cool
down it will be about 1.75 SG.
If a container (cell) is low with 1.75 SG electrolyte (reading 1.75 sg)
than adding just water might add another part of water or:
(6 x 1.0)+ 3 x 1.8) = 11.4
11.4/9 parts = 1.26 SG while hot and may have reduce it to 1.24 when cool.
So it took more over charging increase the electrolyte to 1.257 SG. even
though the plates were charge to 100%.
If the original reading of the electrolyte was at 1.75 SG and you added
water which reduce it to 1.24 SG, You may have over charge it to raise the
SG.
If new batteries are low and the factory did not fill the cell all the way
out, you must add the same SG electrolyte to the proper level.
The white floating crystals is the sulfate or SO4 from the negative plates,
meaning you are releasing the sulfate from the negative plates at a too fast
of a charge. The sulfate is ejecting from the negative plates as particles
instead of dissolving very slowly.
The red goo is the from the positive plate which is lead oxide or PbO2.
This is cause by high and deep discharges that blow out the O2 oxide which
may be a red rust color.
The problem now, is to find out what the real charge rating of the plates
are at. They may no longer correspond to the SG of the diluted acid.
One way that might work, is to let the electrolyte level get down to the
level you thought was low. Charge the batteries at a low rate as to not to
eject more material as high SG you can go.Read the SG which should be higher
now, because there is less water by removing 1 part.
Then finish adding electrolyte as should have been done in the beginning.
This is going to be better than nothing. It may not work, but I would give
it a try.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
> I guess I don't understand. We have Roland here advising 7.4V/6V
> battery, looks to be constant voltage charging with no constant
> current, so IU rather than IUI. I don't know how long the final
> U is suppose to go, or down to what amps.
>
> Bruce Parmenter seems to have been following an IU charging
> regime on his US125s, going to about 2.57V/cell, which is about
> 7.7V/6V battery. I guess his batteries are going ok, this pack.
>
> I, on the other hand, everytime I discharge the batteries fairly
> deeply seem to get a new layer of sugarcoating white sulfate
> crystals on top of my negative plates. My 1.25-year old
> batteries (US125) were delivered with rather low electrolyte
> levels and low specific gravity readings. I worked to get the
> electrolyte levels up by adding water over several months. I had
> one rather deep discharge in Oct 2005 that started the sugar
> crystal layering. In the meantime, I have been following Roger's
> advice of moving the constant voltage up towards 14.4V/12V and
> then after reading further posts and US Batteries' page (+ Bruce
> Parmenter's postings) final U went to the 2.57V/cell (15.6V/12V).
> I also had a final 3-hr constant I phase for awhile at 4A, then
> on advice of Greg McCrea moved it to 5.5A. I finally got the
> average of the pack to 1257sg.
>
> Then earlier (9/2) this month I ran a 75A load test to 5.25V, and
> the batteries did better than I expected. But then last weekend
> I was rather floored during my battery maint. / hydrometer
> readings. Lots more sugar coating on the plates. sg readings
> way down (I haven't finished the spreadsheet). Now my batteries
> will no longer taper off into final I, resulting in the
> hot/stinky battery post of a few days / week ago.
>
> All that I'm reading leaves me to wonder, can these batteries be
> charged and last? Most everybody seems to have problems with
> batteries, and they ain't cheap. I've never seen this sugar
> coating on my previous two packs. Appears Bob Bath has lost his
> pack, Bruce had one fail after only a year, etc., etc. I am
> definitely having my doubts...
>
> I'll post my data (spreadsheets - jpg capture I think) in the
> next few days. I hope someone can help me pull my pack out of
> the hole. I can't see replacing a pack that is only 5K and 1.25
> years old. That's 24 cents/mile, not to speak of the gas hauling
> around a set and time installing them.
>
> Chuck
>
> PS: What's the red goo, Bob?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger &
> Roland
>
>
> > That's what's such a bummer: I followed US Battery's
> > advice (see website), and wound up murdering the pack.
> > Yes, I do believe this was a case of EQ'ing the pack
> > on practically every charge...
> > Trojan, meanwhile, sticks more to your regimen.
> > Now I'm curious to try the red goo that you've sworn
> > by before!
> >
> > --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Bob,
> > >
> > > On your next pack of 144 volts. Try to not charge
> > > over 177.6 volts when the
> > > batteries are at 80 degrees F. This is 7.4 volts per
> > > 6 volts or 14.8 per 12
> > > volts. If the battery temperature is lower, than
> > > the maximum I charge at is
> > > 7.5 volts per 6 volt or 15 volts per 12 volt.
> > >
> > > Any time I see any one of the batteries have more
> > > than a 0.04 volt
> > > difference from the highest battery to the lowest
> > > battery, than I will do a
> > > equalization charge which is 7.73 volts per 6 volts
> > > or 15.46 volts per 12
> > > volt. I only do this equalization charge now every
> > > three or more months.
> > >
> > > 15.46 x 12 = 185.52 volts! Its look like you were
> > > doing balance or
> > > equalization charging everytime which really cooks
> > > the batteries, instead of
> > > doing bulk charging which would be between 177 to
> > > 180 volts.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 1:15 PM
> > > Subject: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to
> > > Roger & Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well about a year ago, I started writing as I was
> > > > frustrated that my batteries were no longer
> > > hitting
> > > > 186-189V.
> > > >
> > > > Battery experts got me to understand that while
> > > 186
> > > > may have been satisfactory for brand new, they
> > > were
> > > > not so anymore. The mystery, was why wouldn't the
> > > > batteries taper down?
> > > >
> > > > Over time, I cut the charger to a rate that would
> > > > gently bubble, (but not heat) the batteries. This
> > > is
> > > > around 173-175V for my 144V pack. Sure enough,
> > > the
> > > > charger tapers down to 6-7A.
> > > >
> > > > At this point (2 yrs. on the pack), I have 3
> > > batteries
> > > > that each have a cell that won't go past 1200 SG.
> > > >
> > > > It is my perception that with active material
> > > flaked
> > > > around the cell, I am faced with that favorite
> > > > dilemma; replace whole pack, or replace the poor
> > > > cells.
> > > >
> > > > I am leaning toward replacing the pack at this
> > > point.
> > > > Interstate is 90x18 or $1620 for the pack. I will
> > > go
> > > > with 165Ah, not 178Ah. Just don't think it's
> > > worth
> > > > the extra money; can use the extra weight, too.
> > > >
> > > > I will do a load test on a satisfactory battery
> > > (ie,
> > > > one where all of the cells are leaning to 1265
> > > SG),
> > > > and make a final decision.
> > > >
> > > > So despite having 6 years experience with EVs
> > > under my
> > > > belt, my understanding of EVs has been unmatched
> > > with
> > > > my understanding of batteries. Bummer.
> > > >
> > > > To those who responded then to my post, I continue
> > > to
> > > > be grateful to you for contributing to this list.
> > > > Let's see if I can get more mileage/years under my
> > > > belt next time/next pack...
> > > > peace,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > > > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch
> > > too!
> > > > Learn more at:
> > > > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > > > ____
> > > > __/__|__\ __
> > > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > > > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> > > came out of the steering
> > > > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > Learn more at:
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/venturi/super-electric-potential-venturi-launches-new-fetish-two-ev-upandcomers-204214.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just the night before last, I was going through the Link-10-related
circuits in my Sparrow. Corbin used a tiny 12VDC-to-12VDC converter to
provide isolation between the 12V system and the Link-10 (at least in
the later part of the Sparrow run.) The part was an NTE1212. It can
only handle 1W, but that's plenty. These are very cheap.
- Jake Oshins
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: emeter power supply
No, Look at the diagrams in your E-meter diagrams. You should isolated
the
on board 12 volt battery circuits from the E-meter.
If you do not, than the negative of the 12 volt battery is connected to
the
negative of the battery pack, which would be connected to the frame of
the
EV by the 12 volt negative grounding system.
The E-meter has a optional module which In my case for a Link-10, is a
DC-DC
converter No. DC2410 you can get from www.evparts.com.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:32 AM
Subject: emeter power supply
> which dc-dc power supplies are isolated enough to
> power the emeter?
>
> I was wondering if I hooked up an iota dc charger to
> my 120vdc pack to charge my 12volt accessory battery,
> and then ran an inverter to 120vac and then used a
> wall-box to go to 12vdc...would there be any isolation
> there?
>
> Since I own all those components all ready...I
> wouldn't have to purchase a $150 dc-dc power supply...
>
> but your ideas are welcome.
>
> thanks!
>
> Michael Golub
> 86 toyota
> fairbanks
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 2nd link was a dead link. Can you summarize what it would have said?
=====================
From: Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2006/09/27 Wed PM 11:26:23 CDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: air conditioning for ev's
Has anyone looked into these:
http://www.digit-life.com/articles/peltiercoolers/
http://sustainablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/high-school-students-create-high.ht
ml
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:16 PM
To: Green VW
Subject: Re: air conditioning for ev's
Ben,
Your Bus is a seriously nice conversion. With two ac clutches you
literally have a mechanical regen! Very sweet. The whole thing is just
too neat and tidy. You should be banned :)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Green VW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> i have had success with my configuration. I use an AC clutch on the
> compressor and the motor shaft, so that energy is not used to turn the
> belt when not in use. The compressor is set up to engage whenever the
> throttle is lifted (shift changes, braking). Helps slow the vehicle
> when coming to a stop and slow the motor between gear shifts. I used
> the largest condensor that I could find and two electric cooling fans.
> In typical use the AC only uses the battery pack to power the fans.
> The compressor is only powered by momentum normally lost to brake heat.
> I put a thermometer in the AC vent to check performance. In stop and
> go traffic, it will maintain 45 deg on a hot florida summer day. I
> also installed an override switch to power the compressor on the
> highway, though I don't use it, as the VW has Safari Windshields and
> allows plenty of air in
>
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/384
>
> On Sep 27, 2006, at 3:13 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > MikePhillips wrote (some time ago):
> > Does anyone know if it's possible and what it takes to bring Air
> > Conditioning
> > to a EV?
> >
> > and the list came up with many ideas and suggestions.
> >
> > I would like for Steve Clunn and others who have DONE IT
> > to way in on the pro's and con's of running the compressor off of the
> > secondary
> > shaft of the Traction motor vs. a separate motor ??
> > If you had a clutch couldn't you "idle" if you had to ?
> > I figure its hot in Fla.so steve should have some good advice ?
> >
> > (OH I forget _ Steve said that he prefers two windows down at 40 mph)
> >
> > Joe in Cincinnati
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stop now if you want to save the motor. The motor enamel is burning. You can
keep going, but carry some means to put the fire out when it burst into
flames as my did at one time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: Hot, stinky motor. What does it mean?
> I'm starting to get a rather interesting smell which
> I'm fairly certain is from my motor.
> It happens between 30-40, and generally on an uphill
> stretch.
> I've tried to keep first gear just under 40, as Lynn
> (similar vehicle) had a tach, and found that this
> would keep the RPMs under 6000. (8" ADC).
>
> It seems my options are:
> a) pull the car out of service for a week or more, and
> get the motor to a local motor rebuilder for
> refurbishing.
> b) Order a new Netgain, and pull the car down for a
> day when the motor comes in.
> c) Continue to use the vehicle until the motor fails
> entirely, then worry about it.
>
> Any idea what I'll be diagnosed with?
> Thanks!
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/29/06, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is there a fuse between the DC/DC output and the 12V battery?
No, but there is a fuse in the DC/DC (now that I went in looked), and
it's blown. Always check the obvious.
Not sure of the model, but it came with the electroauto kit. Looks
like I need to find a F5AL250V fuse now...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 29, 2006, at 10:32 AM, mike golub wrote:
which dc-dc power supplies are isolated enough to
power the emeter?
[snip]
Since I own all those components all ready...I
wouldn't have to purchase a $150 dc-dc power supply...
I suggest an isolated 12 VDC to 12 VDC converter. These can be had for
little money. I use an older non-regulated C&D product for my battery
monitor, but it doesn't put out enough power for an E-meter.
I would suggest an Astrodyne ASD03-12S12H or ASD03-12S12M. These take
an input between 9 and 18 volts DC and put out an isolated 12 volts DC.
They only cost $18 each direct from Astrodyne in single unit
quantities. They are likely available from electronics distributers
too.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When you click on the second link, the extension (.html) is
incomplete, because the link is cut in two in the email.
Tyle the "ml" after the link when you get the error and
you can view the article.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dennis Hogan
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: air conditioning for ev's
The 2nd link was a dead link. Can you summarize what it would have said?
=====================
From: Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2006/09/27 Wed PM 11:26:23 CDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: air conditioning for ev's
Has anyone looked into these:
http://www.digit-life.com/articles/peltiercoolers/
http://sustainablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/high-school-students-create-high.ht
ml
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:16 PM
To: Green VW
Subject: Re: air conditioning for ev's
Ben,
Your Bus is a seriously nice conversion. With two ac clutches you
literally have a mechanical regen! Very sweet. The whole thing is just
too neat and tidy. You should be banned :)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Green VW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> i have had success with my configuration. I use an AC clutch on the
> compressor and the motor shaft, so that energy is not used to turn the
> belt when not in use. The compressor is set up to engage whenever the
> throttle is lifted (shift changes, braking). Helps slow the vehicle
> when coming to a stop and slow the motor between gear shifts. I used
> the largest condensor that I could find and two electric cooling fans.
> In typical use the AC only uses the battery pack to power the fans.
> The compressor is only powered by momentum normally lost to brake heat.
> I put a thermometer in the AC vent to check performance. In stop and
> go traffic, it will maintain 45 deg on a hot florida summer day. I
> also installed an override switch to power the compressor on the
> highway, though I don't use it, as the VW has Safari Windshields and
> allows plenty of air in
>
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/384
>
> On Sep 27, 2006, at 3:13 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > MikePhillips wrote (some time ago):
> > Does anyone know if it's possible and what it takes to bring Air
> > Conditioning
> > to a EV?
> >
> > and the list came up with many ideas and suggestions.
> >
> > I would like for Steve Clunn and others who have DONE IT
> > to way in on the pro's and con's of running the compressor off of the
> > secondary
> > shaft of the Traction motor vs. a separate motor ??
> > If you had a clutch couldn't you "idle" if you had to ?
> > I figure its hot in Fla.so steve should have some good advice ?
> >
> > (OH I forget _ Steve said that he prefers two windows down at 40 mph)
> >
> > Joe in Cincinnati
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
When you say 1.75 do you mean 1.275 SG when cool?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
Hello Chuck,
You may have given me a clue, when you said your batteries were deliver with
low electrolyte.
If I remember right, is that the water to acid ratio is about 5 parts of
water to 3 parts of water.
Water being 1.0 sg and sulfuric acid is 1.8. Adding 5 (five parts of water)
to 1.8+1.8+1.8 (three parts of acid) = 10.4
Divide 10.4 by eight parts = 1.3 SG electrolyte while its hot. When cool
down it will be about 1.75 SG.
If a container (cell) is low with 1.75 SG electrolyte (reading 1.75 sg)
than adding just water might add another part of water or:
(6 x 1.0)+ 3 x 1.8) = 11.4
11.4/9 parts = 1.26 SG while hot and may have reduce it to 1.24 when cool.
So it took more over charging increase the electrolyte to 1.257 SG. even
though the plates were charge to 100%.
If the original reading of the electrolyte was at 1.75 SG and you added
water which reduce it to 1.24 SG, You may have over charge it to raise the
SG.
If new batteries are low and the factory did not fill the cell all the way
out, you must add the same SG electrolyte to the proper level.
The white floating crystals is the sulfate or SO4 from the negative plates,
meaning you are releasing the sulfate from the negative plates at a too fast
of a charge. The sulfate is ejecting from the negative plates as particles
instead of dissolving very slowly.
The red goo is the from the positive plate which is lead oxide or PbO2.
This is cause by high and deep discharges that blow out the O2 oxide which
may be a red rust color.
The problem now, is to find out what the real charge rating of the plates
are at. They may no longer correspond to the SG of the diluted acid.
One way that might work, is to let the electrolyte level get down to the
level you thought was low. Charge the batteries at a low rate as to not to
eject more material as high SG you can go.Read the SG which should be higher
now, because there is less water by removing 1 part.
Then finish adding electrolyte as should have been done in the beginning.
This is going to be better than nothing. It may not work, but I would give
it a try.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
> I guess I don't understand. We have Roland here advising 7.4V/6V
> battery, looks to be constant voltage charging with no constant
> current, so IU rather than IUI. I don't know how long the final
> U is suppose to go, or down to what amps.
>
> Bruce Parmenter seems to have been following an IU charging
> regime on his US125s, going to about 2.57V/cell, which is about
> 7.7V/6V battery. I guess his batteries are going ok, this pack.
>
> I, on the other hand, everytime I discharge the batteries fairly
> deeply seem to get a new layer of sugarcoating white sulfate
> crystals on top of my negative plates. My 1.25-year old
> batteries (US125) were delivered with rather low electrolyte
> levels and low specific gravity readings. I worked to get the
> electrolyte levels up by adding water over several months. I had
> one rather deep discharge in Oct 2005 that started the sugar
> crystal layering. In the meantime, I have been following Roger's
> advice of moving the constant voltage up towards 14.4V/12V and
> then after reading further posts and US Batteries' page (+ Bruce
> Parmenter's postings) final U went to the 2.57V/cell (15.6V/12V).
> I also had a final 3-hr constant I phase for awhile at 4A, then
> on advice of Greg McCrea moved it to 5.5A. I finally got the
> average of the pack to 1257sg.
>
> Then earlier (9/2) this month I ran a 75A load test to 5.25V, and
> the batteries did better than I expected. But then last weekend
> I was rather floored during my battery maint. / hydrometer
> readings. Lots more sugar coating on the plates. sg readings
> way down (I haven't finished the spreadsheet). Now my batteries
> will no longer taper off into final I, resulting in the
> hot/stinky battery post of a few days / week ago.
>
> All that I'm reading leaves me to wonder, can these batteries be
> charged and last? Most everybody seems to have problems with
> batteries, and they ain't cheap. I've never seen this sugar
> coating on my previous two packs. Appears Bob Bath has lost his
> pack, Bruce had one fail after only a year, etc., etc. I am
> definitely having my doubts...
>
> I'll post my data (spreadsheets - jpg capture I think) in the
> next few days. I hope someone can help me pull my pack out of
> the hole. I can't see replacing a pack that is only 5K and 1.25
> years old. That's 24 cents/mile, not to speak of the gas hauling
> around a set and time installing them.
>
> Chuck
>
> PS: What's the red goo, Bob?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger &
> Roland
>
>
> > That's what's such a bummer: I followed US Battery's
> > advice (see website), and wound up murdering the pack.
> > Yes, I do believe this was a case of EQ'ing the pack
> > on practically every charge...
> > Trojan, meanwhile, sticks more to your regimen.
> > Now I'm curious to try the red goo that you've sworn
> > by before!
> >
> > --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Bob,
> > >
> > > On your next pack of 144 volts. Try to not charge
> > > over 177.6 volts when the
> > > batteries are at 80 degrees F. This is 7.4 volts per
> > > 6 volts or 14.8 per 12
> > > volts. If the battery temperature is lower, than
> > > the maximum I charge at is
> > > 7.5 volts per 6 volt or 15 volts per 12 volt.
> > >
> > > Any time I see any one of the batteries have more
> > > than a 0.04 volt
> > > difference from the highest battery to the lowest
> > > battery, than I will do a
> > > equalization charge which is 7.73 volts per 6 volts
> > > or 15.46 volts per 12
> > > volt. I only do this equalization charge now every
> > > three or more months.
> > >
> > > 15.46 x 12 = 185.52 volts! Its look like you were
> > > doing balance or
> > > equalization charging everytime which really cooks
> > > the batteries, instead of
> > > doing bulk charging which would be between 177 to
> > > 180 volts.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 1:15 PM
> > > Subject: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to
> > > Roger & Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well about a year ago, I started writing as I was
> > > > frustrated that my batteries were no longer
> > > hitting
> > > > 186-189V.
> > > >
> > > > Battery experts got me to understand that while
> > > 186
> > > > may have been satisfactory for brand new, they
> > > were
> > > > not so anymore. The mystery, was why wouldn't the
> > > > batteries taper down?
> > > >
> > > > Over time, I cut the charger to a rate that would
> > > > gently bubble, (but not heat) the batteries. This
> > > is
> > > > around 173-175V for my 144V pack. Sure enough,
> > > the
> > > > charger tapers down to 6-7A.
> > > >
> > > > At this point (2 yrs. on the pack), I have 3
> > > batteries
> > > > that each have a cell that won't go past 1200 SG.
> > > >
> > > > It is my perception that with active material
> > > flaked
> > > > around the cell, I am faced with that favorite
> > > > dilemma; replace whole pack, or replace the poor
> > > > cells.
> > > >
> > > > I am leaning toward replacing the pack at this
> > > point.
> > > > Interstate is 90x18 or $1620 for the pack. I will
> > > go
> > > > with 165Ah, not 178Ah. Just don't think it's
> > > worth
> > > > the extra money; can use the extra weight, too.
> > > >
> > > > I will do a load test on a satisfactory battery
> > > (ie,
> > > > one where all of the cells are leaning to 1265
> > > SG),
> > > > and make a final decision.
> > > >
> > > > So despite having 6 years experience with EVs
> > > under my
> > > > belt, my understanding of EVs has been unmatched
> > > with
> > > > my understanding of batteries. Bummer.
> > > >
> > > > To those who responded then to my post, I continue
> > > to
> > > > be grateful to you for contributing to this list.
> > > > Let's see if I can get more mileage/years under my
> > > > belt next time/next pack...
> > > > peace,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > > > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch
> > > too!
> > > > Learn more at:
> > > > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > > > ____
> > > > __/__|__\ __
> > > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > > > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> > > came out of the steering
> > > > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > Learn more at:
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
