EV Digest 5946
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Vectrix scooter review video.
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Engine swap for removal labor
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Bringing electric cars into the country as a kit???
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Raging Grannies at the EV Rally
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) BB600 drive/charge data
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: article: Electric Harley
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BB600 drive/charge data
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: AC vs DC
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Over/under drive
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Mounting Netgain Warp 9 in an S10
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Would LiIons like these work?
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Steve Clunn, motor on your website
by Scott Serr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Power Technology, Inc. Batteries
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Would LiIons like these work?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) new conversion
by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: new conversion
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Vectrix scooter review video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI8k0c9diyE&eurl=
I wants.
-Mike
Nice, well-produced vid, but putting the top speed of 62mph in the
same statement as the 68mi range claim is deceptive: that range was
based on a test run at 25mph (equates to <30mi at top speed).
From what I've heard, range testing in New Bedford on the 50 final prodution
version bikes has surpassed earlier expectations, which had been based on
that seen in the 18 earlier prototypes. In the case of the final production
version bikes, range testing is apparently achieving around 55 miles at
40-50 mph in hard driving, mixed city/ex-urban, with lots of stop and goes,
quick acceleration, and up and down hills. I'm not sure if they have tested
the range of the final production version bikes specifically at the top
speed of 62mph in constant-speed highway driving; haven't heard anything on
that.
Although it was indeed a pretty nice, slick, well-produced video, they
definitely got a few things wrong. First, Vectrix is an American company,
not a European company. The producers of the video may have been confused
on that point because the CEO of European operations (where the bike will
first be launched -- in Europe) is the former CEO of Ducati, Carlo di
Biagio. But the rest of senior management, including the corporate CEO and
Chairman, are American, with headquarters based in Newport, Rhode Island and
the main engineering facility (where the bike was developed) and adjacent US
factory in New Bedford, Massachusetts, as shown in the video.
The second thing I think they got wrong is the price. I believe that target
price is out of date, from about a year ago, before the recent tripling in
the price of nickel (the bike has a NiMH battery pack) that occurred in the
short span of 9 months from 11/05 to 8/06, when the target MSRP had to be
adjusted upward to reflect this tripling in the price of nickel plus price
rises in other raw materials such as aluminum (the frame), copper, etc., as
well as some key components. I'm not sure what the MSRP will be at launch,
but I'm pretty sure it will be well above the price quoted in that video.
(Now, of course, in just the last few weeks, however, we are starting to see
some economic softening with commodity prices starting to ease off and drop
a bit. Don't know how that will affect the MSRP target, if it will be
readjusted again just prior to European production launch in the next few
months or whether large commodity purchases were made over the summer near
the peak. Haven't heard and just don't know. Sure lots of volatility
though on world commodity markets.)
Charles Whalen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right now I bought a Honda VT700 Shadow motorcycle. I paid 200 for it with
a running but knocking motor. I am now selling the exhaust, cooling system
and whole motor to a guy putting together a 700 for his girlfriend. He paid
me 150 dollars for all the shinny parts & he will dispose of the motor. So
I paid 50 bucks for the glider. Depending on where you live you might find
someone on Craigs List that will take out the motor and pay you money for
the motor. That is better than the professional mechanic. They get too
many freebies because of their knowledge. I bet somebody with some skills
and a gasser with a blown motor is a better bet. They will come over and
take out the engine for you & maybe take some other parts from you & pay.
The professional mechanic may not pay you a cent. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: Engine swap for removal labor
> Local salvage yards are asking about 650 for a used 4.0l V6 for a ~1998
> ranger(car-part.com). That is good for about 10 hours labor. I am not
> sure what the book labor hours is to remove an engine from a ranger but
> I would thing it would be 5 or 6 hours. So the trade seems fairly
> reasonable on both sides if you take into account the hassle you are
> saving yourself and work the mechanic will need to do in order to sell
> the motor.
>
> But.... The mechanic needs to want the motor or needs to want to put the
> effort into selling it. I don't think the local shop owners I know would
> go for it.
>
> My Opinion
> Matt
>
> Steve Kobb wrote:
>
> >I had AN idea... but I'm a newbie, so I don't know if it's a GOOD idea.
Perhaps the EVDL can give me some insight.
> >
> >Here's the concept:
> >
> >What if go to a neighborhood mechanic or engine re-builder and make him
this offer: I will go out and buy a running, decent, not-too-old Ford
Ranger...
> >
> >...and then GIVE him for FREE the entire engine and all associated ICE
hardware, IF...
> >
> >...he does the labor to remove all that stuff from the vehicle. In other
words, he gets an engine; I get his time.
> >
> >The attraction to me, of course, is that it would get me to a completed
conversion much faster than if I removed the equipment myself.
> >
> >Now here's my question to you: If this IS a good idea, who is it good
FOR? Both me and the mechanic? Or just him? Or just me?
> >
> >Let's say that it's just good for him. That would mean that I'm giving
away something MUCH more valuable than what he's giving me.
> >
> >Or maybe it's the reverse. I just don't know.
> >
> >Your comments are welcome.
> >
> >Steve Kobb
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if Zap will sell just the glider w/o the controller and
batteries????? Has anyone tried? Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: Bringing electric cars into the country as a kit???
> > I know that Xebra has it's controller installed in the USA. That may
make
> > it qualify for Made in USA status. It is then also a kit. If the car
was
> > sent here without a controller that might work but if it is an AC drive
it
> > could be expensive. I think the two parts concept sounds good.
> > Lawrence.......
>
> I think they said the Xebra is imported that way to get around some import
> laws (complete vehicle vs parts.) It's just a plus that the controller and
> batts are of better quality than China would probably install.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A great time at the EV rally with the Tango/Wrightspeed/.Tesla. On the
Scooter many showed Scooters. Greenscooters brought a Lambretta clone &
Todd from www.electricmotorsports.com brought Oxygen and EVT models. There
was also a dirt bike that was very peppy. I saw three scooter wrecks. Two
down & one of the Raging Grannies jumped a 8inch curb twice. Once hitting
it and going ten feet partly airborne and comming down from the curb making
a perfect two point landing and just sitting there with a shocked look on
her face. Many were watching because she was dressed in turn of the century
granny clothes with a big hat. That blew off and then the fun ensued.
There has to be a little more instruction on these test rides. The granny
didn't have a helmet and that was for the photo opp. Big mistake. It could
have been a tragic. Fetcher brought his Vego modified to 48v & the first
thing I did was pop a wheelie. I couldn't punch it without the pucker
factor. Very fast and in Wayland condition.with lots of attention to
detail. It really looked as good as it drove. I'm sure there will be lots
of other posts. The EV scooter thing is happening big time. Lawrence
Rhodes..............
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has been a good thread, however it does leave me
in the same spot I started:
Either I set my charger at a lower voltage, and the
batts. force a current taper-down, or
I set my charger at USB spec, and never get the
taper-down effect. That means that I finish off at
about 16A. 16A finish current would normally dictate
that your batteries are about done. In my case, it
indicates some whiskers (shorts) as near as I can
figure, and the batteries are otherwise fine (so far;
at this point).
Stay tuned/charged...
--- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Roland,
>
> That is quite an explanation! I think this is
> basically
> high-school chemistry, but that was a loooong time
> ago for me, so
> it will take awhile for me to wrap myself around it.
>
> When the batteries were delivered, the electrolyte
> levels were
> the lowest I ever recall seen in new batteries, and
> I've
> previously had one pack each of US2300 and Trojan
> T125, the
> former being my starter pack in 1994. I think both
> those packs
> had, new, electrolyte levels much closer to the
> meniscus level
> than this one I have now, and the Trojans started at
> about 1245
> before I put a charge on them, and they snapped up
> to 1260 or
> better in short order. Back in 1994, I was just
> learning how to
> handle a hydrometer, so I have don't have an
> extensive collection
> of readings (I wish I did - that was my best pack so
> far when it
> peaked after about two to three years of use, and I
> several times
> went over 60 miles on a charge in hilly country).
>
> I have thought about "burning down" the electrolyte
> levels in the
> cells to about where they were at the start, and
> then slowly (or
> should I do it all at once?) fill back up over
> several months
> with 1270sg electrolyte. I have "spiked" batteries
> before with
> 96% H2SO4, but I doubt that's quite what I want to
> do here.
> Would the battery supply shop be the place to ask
> about 1270sg
> electrolyte? The 96% H2SO4 was given to me by an EV
> friend, and
> I've passed it on to another EV'er.
>
> This idea of the sg not reflecting the true state of
> charge is
> interesting, and I think I've seen it on this list
> before. That
> gives me some hope that I can do something about it
> (probably
> paragraph above).
>
> The batteries seem to motivate the car down the road
> just fine,
> it's just the voltage is down about a volt or two
> across the
> entire pack under load. I really don't get that
> ugly sagging
> feeling like when there is a dead cell.
>
> After I ran the 75A load test, right at the end,
> once I pulled
> the "plug" and was at no-load, there were a couple
> of things I
> remember. Had a look in some of the cells, and it
> was very
> cloudy, and as best I could tell, all the white
> sugar coating
> that had been there up to that point was gone off
> the tops of the
> plates. Also, the electrolyte level did not drop
> significantly -
> here I was under the impression that you don't add
> water to
> discharged batteries because the electrolyte level
> will rise as
> you charge them back up, which didn't seem to happen
> significantly in my case either. Or is the dropping
> of
> electrolyte something that takes awhile (several
> hours)? I had
> my pack on the charger in about 40 minutes from the
> time I
> finished the load test.
>
> I don't have a red goo issue, that was on Bob Bath's
> post.
>
> Also, I didn't mean to hijack the thread from Bob.
> It looked
> like he was done, and the Subject was right on for
> me. Sorry!
>
> Chuck
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to
> Roger &
> Roland
>
>
> > Hello Chuck,
> >
> > You may have given me a clue, when you said your
> batteries were
> deliver with
> > low electrolyte.
> >
> > If I remember right, is that the water to acid
> ratio is about 5
> parts of
> > water to 3 parts of water.
> >
> > Water being 1.0 sg and sulfuric acid is 1.8.
> Adding 5 (five
> parts of water)
> > to 1.8+1.8+1.8 (three parts of acid) = 10.4
> >
> > Divide 10.4 by eight parts = 1.3 SG electrolyte
> while its hot.
> When cool
> > down it will be about 1.75 SG.
> >
> > If a container (cell) is low with 1.75 SG
> electrolyte (reading
> 1.75 sg)
> > than adding just water might add another part of
> water or:
> >
> > (6 x 1.0)+ 3 x 1.8) = 11.4
> >
> > 11.4/9 parts = 1.26 SG while hot and may have
> reduce it to
> 1.24 when cool.
> >
> > So it took more over charging increase the
> electrolyte to 1.257
> SG. even
> > though the plates were charge to 100%.
> >
> > If the original reading of the electrolyte was at
> 1.75 SG and
> you added
> > water which reduce it to 1.24 SG, You may have
> over charge it
> to raise the
> > SG.
> >
> > If new batteries are low and the factory did not
> fill the cell
> all the way
> > out, you must add the same SG electrolyte to the
> proper level.
> >
> > The white floating crystals is the sulfate or SO4
> from the
> negative plates,
> > meaning you are releasing the sulfate from the
> negative plates
> at a too fast
> > of a charge. The sulfate is ejecting from the
> negative plates
> as particles
> > instead of dissolving very slowly.
> >
> > The red goo is the from the positive plate which
> is lead oxide
> or PbO2.
> > This is cause by high and deep discharges that
> blow out the O2
> oxide which
> > may be a red rust color.
> >
> > The problem now, is to find out what the real
> charge rating of
> the plates
> > are at. They may no longer correspond to the SG
> of the diluted
> acid.
> >
> > One way that might work, is to let the electrolyte
> level get
> down to the
> > level you thought was low. Charge the batteries at
> a low rate
> as to not to
> > eject more material as high SG you can go.Read the
> SG which
> should be higher
> > now, because there is less water by removing 1
> part.
> >
> > Then finish adding electrolyte as should have been
> done in the
>
=== message truncated ===
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So here's data from my notebook. Readings are from the Emeter.
Watt hours are zeroed at the beginning of each trip.
9/27 -3730 wh, 13.3mi from work to home. 280 wh/mile.
9/27 +3130 wh, charged at home on 240vac. 6860 wh charge to 366v.
9/30 Charged to 386v.
9/30 -5520 wh, 23.3 miles to Palo Alto EAA Rally. 300v pack at 1.5a
load, end of drive. 238 wh/mile, 55-60mph. 37.5 centigrade pack.
9/30 +2630 wh to 386v, charged at PA Rally on 208vac.
9/30 -6480 wh, 22.1 miles from P.A. Rally. 291v pack at 1.5a load, end
of drive. Headlights, heater. 293 wh/mile.
10/1 +2500 wh to 386v, charged at home on 240vac.
386v is the same overcharge as an initialization charge to 150%. I did
this to
cram all I could into the pack before a long drive. Since I'm flying
blind without a monitoring system I wanted the depth of discharge to
be impacted as little as possible by over filling the pack.
So in round numbers I'm putting back 150% each time I charged
yesterday. The energy put back would be a little less when I charge to
my normal level of 366v instead of 386v. The BB600a.pdf manual, page
12, recommends overcharging by 20-40%. But my goal is to do daily
charging at a rate that won't cause a lot of watering.
Odd how the work commute numbers show I'm putting back 200%. When the
Emeter was setup in ah's, this would not have looked like a 200%
charge. But for some reason in kwhr's it looks to be way over
charging. Hmmm.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
Hello Chuck,
Your plates may be charge, but the conductivity of the electrolyte may not
match your plate chemistry because there was too much water add to the
electrolyte or more than 5 parts of water.
If you want to match the plate charge to a specific gravity level of a
higher value, then it is best to boil off the water to the level it was at
when you received the batteries, which you thought was too low a level above
the grids and finish adding the electrolyte to the level that was not done
in the first place.
The low SG level of 1.245 may be normal for batteries that were in storage
or setting for a long time. Remember that the acid sinks to the bottom
making the electrolyte weaker on top. It is best to charge the battery
before you take a final SG reading.
Its best to mix you own acid. Take a heavy thick glass container and add 5
parts of distill water first and than slowly pour 3 parts of acid on top of
the water. Do not pour the water on top of the acid, because there is too
much volume of acid at that time.
You can get pure 99.99% H2SO4 from some drug stores thay are listed under
chemicals supplies in the yellow pages.
Or at one time, about 20 years ago, I could get 1.265 SG electrolyte from
the NAPA stores to fill my battery cells, that came dry at that time. I
added a little more H2SO4 to bring that up to 1.275 SG which was recommended
for my 300 ah cells.
The 2.57V per cell in the US Battery site, is too high for bulk or normal
charging. This is a equalization charge. The battery chemistry of the US
Battery which I ran a sample pack back in the 80's was only charge to
maximum of 2.50 volts per cell for a bulk charge.
These batteries only lasted 1 second after I started up my EV, which blew 10
of these tops right off. The problem, these 10 batteries were setting in a
warehouse for 9 months and was add to 20 batteries that were sent in.
I could see that the negative plates were so sulfated so hard, that the
pressure of 500 to 600 amp startup broke the sulfated loose causing a short.
I then look at the battery dates, and the other 20 were over 4 months old,
so I had the dealer replace them all with Exide 235 AH which were only two
weeks old from the manufacturer date, or in the same month.
So anytime I order batteries, I will only received batteries dated in the
same month I received. This means you must order a pallet load from the
factory, check out the dates, test out the best batteries out of the group
for voltage balance, SG, battery capacity and terminal post color and have
the dealer take the rest.
Note: If a battery terminal post color which normally be the positive one,
this means the seal of the plastic top around the post is not tight.
Normally cause by the weight of a pallet pack pushing down on the plastic
around the post, even if these use those card board spacers.
The life and performance of a battery will be determined by the original
condition and maintenance.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
I did some more searching and found this one. Is it
similar to the one you saw? A Harley conversion done
in 1978? This one-of-a-kind is stored at the Wheels
Through Time Museum. Photos were taken during the
BuRP Rally 2006.
Photo of Plans
http://motorcycles.about.com/od/rallies/ig/BuRP-2006-Rally-Pics/bp0644.htm
Photo of rear
http://motorcycles.about.com/od/rallies/ig/BuRP-2006-Rally-Pics/bp0645.htm
Photo of Front
http://motorcycles.about.com/od/rallies/ig/BuRP-2006-Rally-Pics/bp0646.htm
--- Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Definately not it!
>
> The Harley was orange, for starters. I got the
> impression that it was a one-off as an experiment
> that got out into the public.
>
> -Ralph
>
>
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
> lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > No, Ralph knew that I wasnt talking about Karl
> Vogel's
> > Electracruiser and before it comes up Myers
> motors'
> > cycle. But, thank you.
> >
> > --- Mike Willmon wrote:
> >
> > > isn't it this one?
> > > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/392
> > >
> >
> > Ralph wrote:
> > No- What I found interesting was that Harley had
> > actually built such a
> > prototype! I'm not a Harley fan so despite it
> being
> > electric, I gave it
> > only passing interest.
> >
> > -Ralph
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:58:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > lyle sloan wrote:
> >
> > > Do you have anymore info on this bike and
> perhaps a
> > > photo?
> > >
> > > Lyle
> > > --- Ralph wrote:
> > >
> > > > Harley actually built an electric cycle back
> in
> > the
> > > > 70s. I saw one (the same one) at the
> Farmington,
> > MN
> > > > antique motorbike rally and then later the
> same
> > year
> > > > at the Davenport antique rally- about 8 years
> ago
> > or
> > > > so.
> > > >
> > > > -Ralph
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
It is normal when some batteries get over 4 or more years, that the finish
voltage will be higher than when new. There is more SO4 and O2 particles in
the electrolyte as it ages.
In large industrial cells, that the tops can be remove, we remove the old
electrolyte, filter it, or replace it with new electrolyte that has the
exact same specific gravity reading of the old electrolyte that was removed.
At the same time, we would wash the separators, plates with distill water
and may replace some separators.
You never install a electrolyte S.G. lower or higher than the original
electrolyte S.G.
The problem with seal tops, is that you cannot do this. If you tip the
battery to remove the electrolyte, this makes it worst, because the SO4 and
O2 particles that have settle on the bottom may causing additional shorting
of the grids.
If I do equalization charging (2.57V) of my Trojan 260 AH batteries, about
every three months, the finishing voltage will be between 10 and 15 volts.
I will stop charging at that point, because my batteries are at 99.99%
anyway according to the E-meter and the S.G. reading.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 6:43 AM
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
> This has been a good thread, however it does leave me
> in the same spot I started:
> Either I set my charger at a lower voltage, and the
> batts. force a current taper-down, or
> I set my charger at USB spec, and never get the
> taper-down effect. That means that I finish off at
> about 16A. 16A finish current would normally dictate
> that your batteries are about done. In my case, it
> indicates some whiskers (shorts) as near as I can
> figure, and the batteries are otherwise fine (so far;
> at this point).
>
> Stay tuned/charged...
>
> --- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Roland,
> >
> > That is quite an explanation! I think this is
> > basically
> > high-school chemistry, but that was a loooong time
> > ago for me, so
> > it will take awhile for me to wrap myself around it.
> >
> > When the batteries were delivered, the electrolyte
> > levels were
> > the lowest I ever recall seen in new batteries, and
> > I've
> > previously had one pack each of US2300 and Trojan
> > T125, the
> > former being my starter pack in 1994. I think both
> > those packs
> > had, new, electrolyte levels much closer to the
> > meniscus level
> > than this one I have now, and the Trojans started at
> > about 1245
> > before I put a charge on them, and they snapped up
> > to 1260 or
> > better in short order. Back in 1994, I was just
> > learning how to
> > handle a hydrometer, so I have don't have an
> > extensive collection
> > of readings (I wish I did - that was my best pack so
> > far when it
> > peaked after about two to three years of use, and I
> > several times
> > went over 60 miles on a charge in hilly country).
> >
> > I have thought about "burning down" the electrolyte
> > levels in the
> > cells to about where they were at the start, and
> > then slowly (or
> > should I do it all at once?) fill back up over
> > several months
> > with 1270sg electrolyte. I have "spiked" batteries
> > before with
> > 96% H2SO4, but I doubt that's quite what I want to
> > do here.
> > Would the battery supply shop be the place to ask
> > about 1270sg
> > electrolyte? The 96% H2SO4 was given to me by an EV
> > friend, and
> > I've passed it on to another EV'er.
> >
> > This idea of the sg not reflecting the true state of
> > charge is
> > interesting, and I think I've seen it on this list
> > before. That
> > gives me some hope that I can do something about it
> > (probably
> > paragraph above).
> >
> > The batteries seem to motivate the car down the road
> > just fine,
> > it's just the voltage is down about a volt or two
> > across the
> > entire pack under load. I really don't get that
> > ugly sagging
> > feeling like when there is a dead cell.
> >
> > After I ran the 75A load test, right at the end,
> > once I pulled
> > the "plug" and was at no-load, there were a couple
> > of things I
> > remember. Had a look in some of the cells, and it
> > was very
> > cloudy, and as best I could tell, all the white
> > sugar coating
> > that had been there up to that point was gone off
> > the tops of the
> > plates. Also, the electrolyte level did not drop
> > significantly -
> > here I was under the impression that you don't add
> > water to
> > discharged batteries because the electrolyte level
> > will rise as
> > you charge them back up, which didn't seem to happen
> > significantly in my case either. Or is the dropping
> > of
> > electrolyte something that takes awhile (several
> > hours)? I had
> > my pack on the charger in about 40 minutes from the
> > time I
> > finished the load test.
> >
> > I don't have a red goo issue, that was on Bob Bath's
> > post.
> >
> > Also, I didn't mean to hijack the thread from Bob.
> > It looked
> > like he was done, and the Subject was right on for
> > me. Sorry!
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to
> > Roger &
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > > Hello Chuck,
> > >
> > > You may have given me a clue, when you said your
> > batteries were
> > deliver with
> > > low electrolyte.
> > >
> > > If I remember right, is that the water to acid
> > ratio is about 5
> > parts of
> > > water to 3 parts of water.
> > >
> > > Water being 1.0 sg and sulfuric acid is 1.8.
> > Adding 5 (five
> > parts of water)
> > > to 1.8+1.8+1.8 (three parts of acid) = 10.4
> > >
> > > Divide 10.4 by eight parts = 1.3 SG electrolyte
> > while its hot.
> > When cool
> > > down it will be about 1.75 SG.
> > >
> > > If a container (cell) is low with 1.75 SG
> > electrolyte (reading
> > 1.75 sg)
> > > than adding just water might add another part of
> > water or:
> > >
> > > (6 x 1.0)+ 3 x 1.8) = 11.4
> > >
> > > 11.4/9 parts = 1.26 SG while hot and may have
> > reduce it to
> > 1.24 when cool.
> > >
> > > So it took more over charging increase the
> > electrolyte to 1.257
> > SG. even
> > > though the plates were charge to 100%.
> > >
> > > If the original reading of the electrolyte was at
> > 1.75 SG and
> > you added
> > > water which reduce it to 1.24 SG, You may have
> > over charge it
> > to raise the
> > > SG.
> > >
> > > If new batteries are low and the factory did not
> > fill the cell
> > all the way
> > > out, you must add the same SG electrolyte to the
> > proper level.
> > >
> > > The white floating crystals is the sulfate or SO4
> > from the
> > negative plates,
> > > meaning you are releasing the sulfate from the
> > negative plates
> > at a too fast
> > > of a charge. The sulfate is ejecting from the
> > negative plates
> > as particles
> > > instead of dissolving very slowly.
> > >
> > > The red goo is the from the positive plate which
> > is lead oxide
> > or PbO2.
> > > This is cause by high and deep discharges that
> > blow out the O2
> > oxide which
> > > may be a red rust color.
> > >
> > > The problem now, is to find out what the real
> > charge rating of
> > the plates
> > > are at. They may no longer correspond to the SG
> > of the diluted
> > acid.
> > >
> > > One way that might work, is to let the electrolyte
> > level get
> > down to the
> > > level you thought was low. Charge the batteries at
> > a low rate
> > as to not to
> > > eject more material as high SG you can go.Read the
> > SG which
> > should be higher
> > > now, because there is less water by removing 1
> > part.
> > >
> > > Then finish adding electrolyte as should have been
> > done in the
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kwh shows not only the extra AH going in, but the difference between the
charge and discharge voltage. With your pack this could be, what over 100
volts?
> So here's data from my notebook. Readings are from the Emeter.
>
> Watt hours are zeroed at the beginning of each trip.
>
> 9/27 -3730 wh, 13.3mi from work to home. 280 wh/mile.
> 9/27 +3130 wh, charged at home on 240vac. 6860 wh charge to 366v.
>
> 9/30 Charged to 386v.
> 9/30 -5520 wh, 23.3 miles to Palo Alto EAA Rally. 300v pack at 1.5a
> load, end of drive. 238 wh/mile, 55-60mph. 37.5 centigrade pack.
> 9/30 +2630 wh to 386v, charged at PA Rally on 208vac.
> 9/30 -6480 wh, 22.1 miles from P.A. Rally. 291v pack at 1.5a load, end
> of drive. Headlights, heater. 293 wh/mile.
> 10/1 +2500 wh to 386v, charged at home on 240vac.
>
> 386v is the same overcharge as an initialization charge to 150%. I did
> this to
> cram all I could into the pack before a long drive. Since I'm flying
> blind without a monitoring system I wanted the depth of discharge to
> be impacted as little as possible by over filling the pack.
>
> So in round numbers I'm putting back 150% each time I charged
> yesterday. The energy put back would be a little less when I charge to
> my normal level of 366v instead of 386v. The BB600a.pdf manual, page
> 12, recommends overcharging by 20-40%. But my goal is to do daily
> charging at a rate that won't cause a lot of watering.
>
> Odd how the work commute numbers show I'm putting back 200%. When the
> Emeter was setup in ah's, this would not have looked like a 200%
> charge. But for some reason in kwhr's it looks to be way over
> charging. Hmmm.
>
> Mike
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WIth such an extreemly limited EV budget, you are going to loose something
no matter what you do.
Performance, longevity, reliability, ??? or all of the above.
Have you considered an EV motorcycle/bike?
> Lee,
>
> Being the newbie that I am, it seams that with a limited budget, say
> $2,500,
> and trying to have a "Square" system, you lose in performance. I am
> looking
> at the Odyssey PC625 batteries. I can buy 32 of them giving me 384v with
> 18a. With a "Square" system I only get 96v with 72a or 77v with 90a.
> Which
> is better?
>
> Curtis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 1:59 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: AC vs DC
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>> Yes, mathematically losses are the same. But, thinner cable is so much
>> easier to crimp, route, bend and otherwise to work with.
>
> That's true. There are lots of incidental reasons why a given designer
> might prefer a low-current to a high-current system. I'm just saying
> efficiency isn't one of them.
>
> Assume you want a certain amount of power, and that you can pick the
> system voltage. It usually works out best to have a "square" system,
> with roughly equal voltage and current levels. Then round off the
> voltage to the nearest standard level. For example:
>
> for 300w, use 17v and 17a
> examples: 24v 12a (electric bike)
> for 1000w, use 33v and 33a
> examples: 36v 30a (scooter)
> for 3000w, use 55v and 55a
> examples: 36v 75a (golf cart)
> for 10kw, use 100v and 100a
> examples: 72v 150a (NEV), 120v 80a (Geo Metro EV)
> for 30kw, use 173v and 173a
> examples: 96v 300a (VW Rabbit EV), 144v 200a (Solectria Force)
> for 100kw, use 300v and 330a
> examples: 120v 500a (hobbyist EV), 330v 300a (GM EV1)
>
> In most cases, the normal voltages and currents are about equal. The
> only cases where they are significantly different (more than 2:1) is for
> a hobbyist EVs. That's because hobbyists are not engineers, and
> generally use whatever is expedient and available, rather than a
> carefully optimized choice.
>
> A "square" system tends to be the best compromise between extremes. It
> optimizes the various tradeoffs between cost, reliability, ease of use,
> safety, etc.
>
> If you try a much higher voltage than current, then you have problems
> with insulation, leakage, arcing, shock hazard, expensive components,
> large numbers of parts which lowers reliability, etc. Small increases in
> voltage makes these problems get a lot worse.
>
> If you try for a much higher current than voltage, you have problems
> with overheated connections, physically large parts, expensive
> components, it's harder to wire, etc. Each further small increase in
> current makes these problems get a lot worse.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several years ago, I contacted Gear Vender on one of there over/under drive
to give me a 30 percent reduction. The standard type, need at least 500 rpm
idling or are use after automatics, so that did not work for me at the time.
You can get into racing types that are stackable which have one gear per
stack. If you have 6 of these stack up, then you have 6 gear levers looking
at you.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:43 PM
Subject: Over/under drive
> Perusing eBay, found this overdrive unit
> (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130032585709)
> -
> seems they do get used in EV racing
> (http://www.gearvendors.com/racing.html),
> so can you get a wide enough over/under drive to use like a 2-speed
> tranny?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mohlere" <
I ordered the motor mount and
adaptor kit, but it appears that the "lifting hole" for the ADC 9" is not
present on the Netgain Warp 9, which is also the spot where the motor
mount is designed to bolt into......
Hi Michael , The motor mount you have goes around the motor ? and the
lifting bolt is used to stop the motor from twisting in the "clam shell" ?
With this clam shell set up all you need now is a way to keep the motor form
twisting , a arm coming from a strong part of the frame to the front ( where
the tail shaft is ) of the motor will do . Are you going to have a/c or
power steering running off the front of the motor . I can send you a Steel
plate that will fit on the front of the motor so you can attach this stuff
and the arm to keep things from twisting if you like .
BTW, how am I supposed to lift the Netgain Warp 9?? I guess I could do it
w/ straps, but then I am still left w/ how to mount it....I'm starting to
feel like I should have stuck w/ the ADC 9.....
When you look at the brushes of a ADC and the Net gain motor and see how
much bigger the net gain brushes are , you may feel different :-). Net
gain motors are 1/2 inch longer and that 1/2 inch is all brush .. As for
lifting it a chain around the motor is what I use , when the tranny is on ,
the chain will be close to the tranny to balance it .
Steve Clunn
Thx, Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have no idea how expensive these are, but before I would call the company,
I'd want to know if something like this would work for an EV, and how many
it might take?
http://www.ocean-server.com/largebattery.html
Obviously I'm looking for the smallest, and lightest power source I can
find.
I'm sure if this were feasible, someone would have done this already though.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve, Do you have a link of the original movie... something with better
resolution and sound?
I'm guessing that since it's in 4th gear that you are using the WarP11?
I'm wondering if anyone has experience with the TransWarP11...
Anyone, I have a couple questions on the TransWarP11:
1. I'm guessing that you get a slip yoke on both ends.
2. Any ideas about how existing (MR2) CV joints would work? Do you have
to do everything custom from the yoke to the wheel?
Thanks,
Scott
On 09/30/06 21:16, steve clunn wrote:
> Hi Dale the 11 inch motor has enough toqure ( 2 times as much as a 9"
> ) that it can be hooked up straight to the rear end , it's 1 to 1 and
> reverse is done with a reversing contactor . This is a clip of my
> truck with the 11 in 4th gear. http://www.grassrootsev.com/mits.htm
> steve clunn
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:50 AM
> Subject: Steve Clunn, motor on your website
>
>
>> Hi Steve,
>> I see an 11 inch motor with a yoke for a universal joint. Is this a
>> 1 to 1 set
>> up or a built-in gear reduction? Does it have a method for reverse?
>>
>> Dale Curren
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How is this technology different from what Firefly Energy is doing with
their foam/lead collectors?
JLC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:15 PM
Subject: Power Technology, Inc. Batteries
> What is the opinion of the group with regards to Power Technology, Inc.
> batteries? http://www.pwtcbattery.com/technology/
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on the EV. These aren't very powerful, max current is less than
1C, in fact it looks like it's less than .85C. That's max current.
Continuous current is probably somewhere around .25C (I can't be bothered
to dig through their website to find out where the've hidden the battery
specs, if it's even available.)
Anyway, that means that you'll need a bunch of these for any decent power.
Each module is good for 80 watts maximum. If you are doing a full size EV
and are willing to live with really poor performance (0-60 mph in over a
minute) you could get away with only 400 modules. If you want medium
performance (similar to an economy car) you'll need 800-100 modules.
Seems like an awful low of hassle and probably really expensive.
If you are going with an e-bike, then you'd only need perhaps 8-10 of
these. While that would give you great range, I'm guessing that it would
be prohibitively expensive.
> I have no idea how expensive these are, but before I would call the
> company,
> I'd want to know if something like this would work for an EV, and how many
> it might take?
>
>
>
> http://www.ocean-server.com/largebattery.html
>
>
>
> Obviously I'm looking for the smallest, and lightest power source I can
> find.
>
>
>
> I'm sure if this were feasible, someone would have done this already
> though.
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have any thoughts on converting a Scion xA? No - not "the
box". It's a more aerodynamic 5-dr with the same chassis as "the box"
(otherwise called the xB). I was thinking of the Mazda3 but since
weight and price are major considerations, the Scion is 2340 lbs curb
(3305 gross) vs. the Mazda3 at 2930 lbs curb (for comparison, the new
Beetle at 2884 and Honda Civic at 2600, both much more expensive). I
can find used Mazda3's for $12-15K, or new at $18K. No used Scion xA's
around, but new at only $13.5K. I drove one yesterday and it feels
surprisingly nice and solid. Not much room under the hood but hopefully
enough, and decent space in back. Pretty roomy car inside for it's
size.
gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary,
I am pulling the engine from an 07 Yaris, perhaps today as I just
jacked it up. This car has the exact motor as the XA, based on the
experience of others you will only be able to get about 450lbs off
the car total due to the fact that the engine is very light. Not sure
if the Xa has the electric power steering? The good part is I will
be doing an adaptor plate with electro auto so they will have a
template if needed. The car is easy to work on but the parts are
very light weight.
Mark
www.electricyaris.com
On Oct 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, gary wrote:
Does anyone have any thoughts on converting a Scion xA? No - not "the
box". It's a more aerodynamic 5-dr with the same chassis as "the
box"
(otherwise called the xB). I was thinking of the Mazda3 but since
weight and price are major considerations, the Scion is 2340 lbs curb
(3305 gross) vs. the Mazda3 at 2930 lbs curb (for comparison, the new
Beetle at 2884 and Honda Civic at 2600, both much more expensive). I
can find used Mazda3's for $12-15K, or new at $18K. No used Scion
xA's
around, but new at only $13.5K. I drove one yesterday and it feels
surprisingly nice and solid. Not much room under the hood but
hopefully
enough, and decent space in back. Pretty roomy car inside for it's
size.
gary
--- End Message ---
