EV Digest 5945
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hot motor and a couple other newbie questions
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Karmann Ghia vs Porsche 914
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Production EV's sold to the public
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Engine swap for removal labor
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: MR2 conversion
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) My Donor car!
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DC-DC Converter not working
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Steve Clunn, motor on your website
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EV classroom kit
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: AC vs DC
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Over/under drive
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: AC vs DC
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: My Donor car!
by Pat Mackey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV from Brazil
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Engine swap for removal labor
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Better than a Xebra
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Production EV's sold to the public
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Get one of these:
<http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=33675>
Harbor freight also sells a magnetic stand for it that is very handy.
Use it to see if your flywheel is wobbling.
Since your flywheel is geared weight, taking off 2 pounds is more
like taking 6 pounds off the car elsewhere.
Also you can have your flywheel and pressure plate balanced as a unit
by a race machine shop. Be sure to keep the same bolts in the same
holes and to orient the unit in the same direction when you
reassemble it.
--- Erik Bigelow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I've also got an obvious vibration from the motor, especially above
> 4k RPM.
> I think my flywheel is out of balance. Is it possible that the
> output shaft
> is bent a bit, and if so any ideas how to check? I may have a
> little more
> cut off the flywheel while it's out, not that 2 pounds makes a HUGE
> difference in a 3000 lb car. =)
> ...
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--- Begin Message ---
My decision was Ghia vs. 911, but I think the arguments would apply
to the 914 as well.
It seemed to me one could get the battery weight lower in the
Porsche.
The Porsche has a tougher transmission and better brakes.
There are lightweight body parts and windows for the Porsche (maybe
the Ghia has this, too?).
The Porsche rims can take tire sizes more amenable to heavier loads.
Aerodynamics are a tough call. The Porsche can go pretty fast on low
horsepower, but the Ghia has a good reputation for good range.
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--- Begin Message ---
I do not have the answer. Here are a few companies that sell EV's, maybe
they could help:
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/
http://www.voltagevehicles.com/
http://www.mullenmotorco.com/ (they are trying to sell 20 a year)
http://66.218.37.153/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Condie
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:02 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Production EV's sold to the public
Something I don't have the answer to: I know Toyota sold some RAV-4 EV's
here in California. GM leased and then crushed all the EV-1's. Some Ford
pickups have found their way into the hands of the general public, but not
many, and I have the impression that they are all resales from corporate and
municipal fleets (?)
Anyway, my quetsion is this: Does anyone know how many major company
manufactured EV's have been offered to the public since the 1920's? For
example, Solectrias, Xebras and Tropica's don't count (not major
corporation); the EV-1 would count if it had ever been sold to the public
(which it wasn't.)
Does anyone know the answer? I'd like to know the facts to respond to the
"electric cars failed in the marketplace" arguments I hear all the time.
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done
faster.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am, but I'll admit to being the idiot that works here. :)
Fortunately, I may qualify as an idiot savant. (at least in my field, I'm
still an idiot when it comes to EVs, but working on it!)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark McCurdy
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Engine swap for removal labor
you DROVE the truck to them and they said it was a boat anchor?
bet you talked to the idiot that worked there
every place has an idiot working there,
just hope nobody on this list is self employed :op
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Engine swap for removal labor
> Yes, Before I began this process I drove my truck to Nissan Only
> Wreckers outside of Sacramento CA. That is when I was told it was a
> boat anchor.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> In the next year, I'd like to learn enough to do a conversion on my
> beloved 1985 Toyota MR2. It was a wonderful car from 1991 to 2001.
> I've been keeping it around knowing that I'm either going to restore it
> (rebuild engine and tranny) or convert it to electric. Seeing gas
> prices for the last year... you know why I just joined the list.
>
> I've seen a couple first generation MR2 conversions on the net...
Several MR2 EV's in the EV Album:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/TOYO/
> since I don't have a working tranny, I'd like to investigate direct
> drive or wheel motors like the ones on the PML Mini QED.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PML_Mini_QED
That was a one-of-a-kind, not-meant-for-production (no brakes besides
the regen) exercise.
> Also... I don't necessarily want to go slow. If it takes another +$2-3K
> over a basic conversion to make it really move, thats the way I'd like
> to go. The 1.6L 112hp engine was surprisingly quick and I'd like to
> once again be excited about going to get groceries. :)
An EV only needs half the ICE's peak hp to get equivalent acceleration
(at least from a stand-still), so 116hp ICE is about 45kW (the
smallest Zilla puts out 3 times that).
> I'm going to read this list in a dedicated sort of way. Any other
> advice? Ideas about direct drive? I rather not have to buy a used
> tranny just to introduce more waste from the motor to the wheels.
>
> I saw somewhere (a month ago but can't find it now) the effective prices
> of doing the PML Mini conversion. Of course it was expensive... Mini +
> 4 Motors + Batteries + Capacitors + etc etc etc.. was something
like $55K?
Probably 10 times that - fancy motors, fancy controllers, etc, etc!
> Anyone want to give a newbie a little direction? I've started reading
> the "wikibook" on EVs.
>
>
Start reading the archives for the EVDL, especially for other links.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Picked it up today, the thing is incredibly 99.9% rust free!
http://trefry.net/blogs/michael/archive/2006/09/30/688.aspx
Ravena green :) It is a thing of beauty!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might want to look at the Iota's mentioned on this list. I just got
one a few weeks back and temporarily wired it in with no on off switch
or relay because I didn't want to deal with the precharge issue at the
moment. It turns out this dc-dc goes to sleep nicely, stays cool, and is
very quiet. I wish it was waterproof, but I have put a humidifier
filter on the end to prevent splashes from getting inside for now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dale the 11 inch motor has enough toqure ( 2 times as much as a 9" )
that it can be hooked up straight to the rear end , it's 1 to 1 and reverse
is done with a reversing contactor . This is a clip of my truck with the
11 in 4th gear. http://www.grassrootsev.com/mits.htm
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:50 AM
Subject: Steve Clunn, motor on your website
Hi Steve,
I see an 11 inch motor with a yoke for a universal joint. Is this a 1 to
1 set
up or a built-in gear reduction? Does it have a method for reverse?
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has the image of the EV1 on the pamphlets:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150041035637
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Being the newbie that I am, it seams that with a limited budget, say $2,500,
and trying to have a "Square" system, you lose in performance. I am looking
at the Odyssey PC625 batteries. I can buy 32 of them giving me 384v with
18a. With a "Square" system I only get 96v with 72a or 77v with 90a. Which
is better?
Curtis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 1:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Yes, mathematically losses are the same. But, thinner cable is so much
> easier to crimp, route, bend and otherwise to work with.
That's true. There are lots of incidental reasons why a given designer
might prefer a low-current to a high-current system. I'm just saying
efficiency isn't one of them.
Assume you want a certain amount of power, and that you can pick the
system voltage. It usually works out best to have a "square" system,
with roughly equal voltage and current levels. Then round off the
voltage to the nearest standard level. For example:
for 300w, use 17v and 17a
examples: 24v 12a (electric bike)
for 1000w, use 33v and 33a
examples: 36v 30a (scooter)
for 3000w, use 55v and 55a
examples: 36v 75a (golf cart)
for 10kw, use 100v and 100a
examples: 72v 150a (NEV), 120v 80a (Geo Metro EV)
for 30kw, use 173v and 173a
examples: 96v 300a (VW Rabbit EV), 144v 200a (Solectria Force)
for 100kw, use 300v and 330a
examples: 120v 500a (hobbyist EV), 330v 300a (GM EV1)
In most cases, the normal voltages and currents are about equal. The
only cases where they are significantly different (more than 2:1) is for
a hobbyist EVs. That's because hobbyists are not engineers, and
generally use whatever is expedient and available, rather than a
carefully optimized choice.
A "square" system tends to be the best compromise between extremes. It
optimizes the various tradeoffs between cost, reliability, ease of use,
safety, etc.
If you try a much higher voltage than current, then you have problems
with insulation, leakage, arcing, shock hazard, expensive components,
large numbers of parts which lowers reliability, etc. Small increases in
voltage makes these problems get a lot worse.
If you try for a much higher current than voltage, you have problems
with overheated connections, physically large parts, expensive
components, it's harder to wire, etc. Each further small increase in
current makes these problems get a lot worse.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perusing eBay, found this overdrive unit
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130032585709) -
seems they do get used in EV racing (http://www.gearvendors.com/racing.html),
so can you get a wide enough over/under drive to use like a 2-speed tranny?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee,
>
> Being the newbie that I am, it seams that with a limited budget, say
$2,500,
> and trying to have a "Square" system, you lose in performance. I am
looking
> at the Odyssey PC625 batteries. I can buy 32 of them giving me 384v
with
> 18a. With a "Square" system I only get 96v with 72a or 77v with
90a. Which
> is better?
>
384V*18A=96V*72A, but now go price the components. Those batteries can
easily supply 500A or more, but you really don't want to make 4-way
buddies or even 4 parallel strings (what balance problems!) Best to go
with the largest battery you can fit at your selected system voltage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What a BEAUTY!
I'm quite jealous.
BTW I'm still grinning after my ride with Ian Wright in the Wrightspeed this
afternoon.
He was showing it off at the Silicon Valley EV club event and started taking
people out for rides.
Can't believe I got to ride in that monster machine - we hit 80 in less than a
block!
Pat Mackey
----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:43:31 PM
Subject: My Donor car!
Picked it up today, the thing is incredibly 99.9% rust free!
http://trefry.net/blogs/michael/archive/2006/09/30/688.aspx
Ravena green :) It is a thing of beauty!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 12:07 PM
Subject: EV from Brazil
> Electric version - model 012E - preliminary specifications
>
> Range 200 – 240 miles
> Acceleration 0 to 60 < 4.5 secs with 200HP's and CVT transmission system
> Top Speed 120 mph
> Charge rate 30 minutes for 20 – 50 miles
> Full Charge 2 hrs (fast), 5 hrs (normal)
> Electric Propulsion
> Drive system 120 kW, 220 Nm, 13,000 rpm
> Regenerative braking
> Battery Li Ion, 39 kWh, 580 lb
> Charger Onboard, plug in anywhere - up to 20 kW
> Vehicle to grid (V2G) Bi-directional grid interface
>
> Targeted price 012E will be US$59,000.
>
> http://www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/012.htm
>
> Hi EVerybody;
Wow! I'm impressed! Never think of Brazil as a Car Country. Yeah, I know
they make them there, but for ,mostly local consumption. It sure is
different! WHY do they have the frowning, angry looking GRILLES!? Fiberglas
all that over for a "no face" look?At 59k it sure would be a head turner in
traffic, and EV-1 guyz, now suffering from EV withdrawl syndromes, could be
helped? And drive it home, up the Pan Am Hiway. now THAT would be a trip!
Seeya
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 9/29/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It really depends on the engine that you want to get rid of. If its in demand
it will go, if its a boat anchor you probably can't
give it away. I ran mine on Craigslist for a month for sale, not one call. I
listed it for Free, lots of calls and gone right
away. So it turns out mine was somewhere between "I wouldn't pay $100 for that
engine" to "hey for free I'll take it". And I
really wanted it off my garage floor. I did my whole conversion with it there
and it took up a lot of room. It was turning out to
be worth it for someone to just come get it.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of John
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:23 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Engine swap for removal labor
>
>
> Yes, I drove the truck there. Apparently they had more of these than
> they needed. And this is a place that specializes in Nissan's so I
> figured they would be my best bet. I was also I bit surprised that my
> ad on craigs list offering it for FREE did not attract more attention.
>
> This is why I commented that getting rid of a used engine is not as
> easy as I would have thought.
>
>
> On Friday, September 29, 2006, at 09:47 PM, Mark McCurdy wrote:
> > you DROVE the truck to them and they said it was a boat anchor?
> > bet you talked to the idiot that worked there
> > every place has an idiot working there, just hope nobody on this list
> > is self employed :op
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: Engine swap for removal labor
> >
> >
> >> Yes, Before I began this process I drove my truck to Nissan Only
> >> Wreckers outside of Sacramento CA. That is when I was told it was a
> >> boat anchor.
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:23 PM
Subject: Better than a Xebra
> Maybe I should have titled this "The Chinese are coming". Check out the
> specs and looks of this new three wheeler from China. They have a US
> distributor already and a showroom in Los Angeles.. It looks very
> interesting. Has anyone seen one in person yet or can someone in the area
> stop by and check it out?
> http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
>
> Roderick Wilde
> EV Parts, Inc.
> www.evparts.com
>
> Yeah, Rod, I hope somebody checks it out, maybe even drinve it some!
These guyz need a proofreader, they are as bad as I<g>!Looking over the
specs I think anybody will be underwhelmed by the Gient 5 KW "Engine" A
romping stomping EIGHT horsepower? I probably could blow its doors in with
most Amtrak trains I have run.Think ten minutes O to 60?No, not the
train!With a TAI(Great) Foong(wind)behind it? But it LOOKS sharp, though. If
it was cheep enough you could soup it up for hiway use. Don't want to Diss
it too bad, I like the looks. Jerry D.? Check this one out!
My 3 wheels worth
Bob
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 9/29/2006
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 9/29/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
look thru the http://www.econogics.com/ev/evhistry.htm
website it has a good list thru the ages of electric
vehicle manufacturers.
--- Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I do not have the answer. Here are a few companies
> that sell EV's, maybe
> they could help:
>
> http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
> http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/
> http://www.voltagevehicles.com/
> http://www.mullenmotorco.com/ (they are trying to
> sell 20 a year)
> http://66.218.37.153/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steve Condie
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:02 PM
> To: EV List
> Subject: Production EV's sold to the public
>
> Something I don't have the answer to: I know Toyota
> sold some RAV-4 EV's
> here in California. GM leased and then crushed all
> the EV-1's. Some Ford
> pickups have found their way into the hands of the
> general public, but not
> many, and I have the impression that they are all
> resales from corporate and
> municipal fleets (?)
>
> Anyway, my quetsion is this: Does anyone know how
> many major company
> manufactured EV's have been offered to the public
> since the 1920's? For
> example, Solectrias, Xebras and Tropica's don't
> count (not major
> corporation); the EV-1 would count if it had ever
> been sold to the public
> (which it wasn't.)
>
> Does anyone know the answer? I'd like to know the
> facts to respond to the
> "electric cars failed in the marketplace" arguments
> I hear all the time.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email
> and get things done
> faster.
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland,
That is quite an explanation! I think this is basically
high-school chemistry, but that was a loooong time ago for me, so
it will take awhile for me to wrap myself around it.
When the batteries were delivered, the electrolyte levels were
the lowest I ever recall seen in new batteries, and I've
previously had one pack each of US2300 and Trojan T125, the
former being my starter pack in 1994. I think both those packs
had, new, electrolyte levels much closer to the meniscus level
than this one I have now, and the Trojans started at about 1245
before I put a charge on them, and they snapped up to 1260 or
better in short order. Back in 1994, I was just learning how to
handle a hydrometer, so I have don't have an extensive collection
of readings (I wish I did - that was my best pack so far when it
peaked after about two to three years of use, and I several times
went over 60 miles on a charge in hilly country).
I have thought about "burning down" the electrolyte levels in the
cells to about where they were at the start, and then slowly (or
should I do it all at once?) fill back up over several months
with 1270sg electrolyte. I have "spiked" batteries before with
96% H2SO4, but I doubt that's quite what I want to do here.
Would the battery supply shop be the place to ask about 1270sg
electrolyte? The 96% H2SO4 was given to me by an EV friend, and
I've passed it on to another EV'er.
This idea of the sg not reflecting the true state of charge is
interesting, and I think I've seen it on this list before. That
gives me some hope that I can do something about it (probably
paragraph above).
The batteries seem to motivate the car down the road just fine,
it's just the voltage is down about a volt or two across the
entire pack under load. I really don't get that ugly sagging
feeling like when there is a dead cell.
After I ran the 75A load test, right at the end, once I pulled
the "plug" and was at no-load, there were a couple of things I
remember. Had a look in some of the cells, and it was very
cloudy, and as best I could tell, all the white sugar coating
that had been there up to that point was gone off the tops of the
plates. Also, the electrolyte level did not drop significantly -
here I was under the impression that you don't add water to
discharged batteries because the electrolyte level will rise as
you charge them back up, which didn't seem to happen
significantly in my case either. Or is the dropping of
electrolyte something that takes awhile (several hours)? I had
my pack on the charger in about 40 minutes from the time I
finished the load test.
I don't have a red goo issue, that was on Bob Bath's post.
Also, I didn't mean to hijack the thread from Bob. It looked
like he was done, and the Subject was right on for me. Sorry!
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger &
Roland
> Hello Chuck,
>
> You may have given me a clue, when you said your batteries were
deliver with
> low electrolyte.
>
> If I remember right, is that the water to acid ratio is about 5
parts of
> water to 3 parts of water.
>
> Water being 1.0 sg and sulfuric acid is 1.8. Adding 5 (five
parts of water)
> to 1.8+1.8+1.8 (three parts of acid) = 10.4
>
> Divide 10.4 by eight parts = 1.3 SG electrolyte while its hot.
When cool
> down it will be about 1.75 SG.
>
> If a container (cell) is low with 1.75 SG electrolyte (reading
1.75 sg)
> than adding just water might add another part of water or:
>
> (6 x 1.0)+ 3 x 1.8) = 11.4
>
> 11.4/9 parts = 1.26 SG while hot and may have reduce it to
1.24 when cool.
>
> So it took more over charging increase the electrolyte to 1.257
SG. even
> though the plates were charge to 100%.
>
> If the original reading of the electrolyte was at 1.75 SG and
you added
> water which reduce it to 1.24 SG, You may have over charge it
to raise the
> SG.
>
> If new batteries are low and the factory did not fill the cell
all the way
> out, you must add the same SG electrolyte to the proper level.
>
> The white floating crystals is the sulfate or SO4 from the
negative plates,
> meaning you are releasing the sulfate from the negative plates
at a too fast
> of a charge. The sulfate is ejecting from the negative plates
as particles
> instead of dissolving very slowly.
>
> The red goo is the from the positive plate which is lead oxide
or PbO2.
> This is cause by high and deep discharges that blow out the O2
oxide which
> may be a red rust color.
>
> The problem now, is to find out what the real charge rating of
the plates
> are at. They may no longer correspond to the SG of the diluted
acid.
>
> One way that might work, is to let the electrolyte level get
down to the
> level you thought was low. Charge the batteries at a low rate
as to not to
> eject more material as high SG you can go.Read the SG which
should be higher
> now, because there is less water by removing 1 part.
>
> Then finish adding electrolyte as should have been done in the
beginning.
>
> This is going to be better than nothing. It may not work, but
I would give
> it a try.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger &
Roland
>
>
> > I guess I don't understand. We have Roland here advising
7.4V/6V
> > battery, looks to be constant voltage charging with no
constant
> > current, so IU rather than IUI. I don't know how long the
final
> > U is suppose to go, or down to what amps.
> >
> > Bruce Parmenter seems to have been following an IU charging
> > regime on his US125s, going to about 2.57V/cell, which is
about
> > 7.7V/6V battery. I guess his batteries are going ok, this
pack.
> >
> > I, on the other hand, everytime I discharge the batteries
fairly
> > deeply seem to get a new layer of sugarcoating white sulfate
> > crystals on top of my negative plates. My 1.25-year old
> > batteries (US125) were delivered with rather low electrolyte
> > levels and low specific gravity readings. I worked to get
the
> > electrolyte levels up by adding water over several months. I
had
> > one rather deep discharge in Oct 2005 that started the sugar
> > crystal layering. In the meantime, I have been following
Roger's
> > advice of moving the constant voltage up towards 14.4V/12V
and
> > then after reading further posts and US Batteries' page (+
Bruce
> > Parmenter's postings) final U went to the 2.57V/cell
(15.6V/12V).
> > I also had a final 3-hr constant I phase for awhile at 4A,
then
> > on advice of Greg McCrea moved it to 5.5A. I finally got the
> > average of the pack to 1257sg.
> >
> > Then earlier (9/2) this month I ran a 75A load test to 5.25V,
and
> > the batteries did better than I expected. But then last
weekend
> > I was rather floored during my battery maint. / hydrometer
> > readings. Lots more sugar coating on the plates. sg
readings
> > way down (I haven't finished the spreadsheet). Now my
batteries
> > will no longer taper off into final I, resulting in the
> > hot/stinky battery post of a few days / week ago.
> >
> > All that I'm reading leaves me to wonder, can these batteries
be
> > charged and last? Most everybody seems to have problems with
> > batteries, and they ain't cheap. I've never seen this sugar
> > coating on my previous two packs. Appears Bob Bath has lost
his
> > pack, Bruce had one fail after only a year, etc., etc. I am
> > definitely having my doubts...
> >
> > I'll post my data (spreadsheets - jpg capture I think) in the
> > next few days. I hope someone can help me pull my pack out
of
> > the hole. I can't see replacing a pack that is only 5K and
1.25
> > years old. That's 24 cents/mile, not to speak of the gas
hauling
> > around a set and time installing them.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > PS: What's the red goo, Bob?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 5:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger &
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > > That's what's such a bummer: I followed US Battery's
> > > advice (see website), and wound up murdering the pack.
> > > Yes, I do believe this was a case of EQ'ing the pack
> > > on practically every charge...
> > > Trojan, meanwhile, sticks more to your regimen.
> > > Now I'm curious to try the red goo that you've sworn
> > > by before!
> > >
> > > --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello Bob,
> > > >
> > > > On your next pack of 144 volts. Try to not charge
> > > > over 177.6 volts when the
> > > > batteries are at 80 degrees F. This is 7.4 volts per
> > > > 6 volts or 14.8 per 12
> > > > volts. If the battery temperature is lower, than
> > > > the maximum I charge at is
> > > > 7.5 volts per 6 volt or 15 volts per 12 volt.
> > > >
> > > > Any time I see any one of the batteries have more
> > > > than a 0.04 volt
> > > > difference from the highest battery to the lowest
> > > > battery, than I will do a
> > > > equalization charge which is 7.73 volts per 6 volts
> > > > or 15.46 volts per 12
> > > > volt. I only do this equalization charge now every
> > > > three or more months.
> > > >
> > > > 15.46 x 12 = 185.52 volts! Its look like you were
> > > > doing balance or
> > > > equalization charging everytime which really cooks
> > > > the batteries, instead of
> > > > doing bulk charging which would be between 177 to
> > > > 180 volts.
> > > >
> > > > Roland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 1:15 PM
> > > > Subject: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to
> > > > Roger & Roland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Well about a year ago, I started writing as I was
> > > > > frustrated that my batteries were no longer
> > > > hitting
> > > > > 186-189V.
> > > > >
> > > > > Battery experts got me to understand that while
> > > > 186
> > > > > may have been satisfactory for brand new, they
> > > > were
> > > > > not so anymore. The mystery, was why wouldn't the
> > > > > batteries taper down?
> > > > >
> > > > > Over time, I cut the charger to a rate that would
> > > > > gently bubble, (but not heat) the batteries. This
> > > > is
> > > > > around 173-175V for my 144V pack. Sure enough,
> > > > the
> > > > > charger tapers down to 6-7A.
> > > > >
> > > > > At this point (2 yrs. on the pack), I have 3
> > > > batteries
> > > > > that each have a cell that won't go past 1200 SG.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is my perception that with active material
> > > > flaked
> > > > > around the cell, I am faced with that favorite
> > > > > dilemma; replace whole pack, or replace the poor
> > > > > cells.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am leaning toward replacing the pack at this
> > > > point.
> > > > > Interstate is 90x18 or $1620 for the pack. I will
> > > > go
> > > > > with 165Ah, not 178Ah. Just don't think it's
> > > > worth
> > > > > the extra money; can use the extra weight, too.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will do a load test on a satisfactory battery
> > > > (ie,
> > > > > one where all of the cells are leaning to 1265
> > > > SG),
> > > > > and make a final decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > So despite having 6 years experience with EVs
> > > > under my
> > > > > belt, my understanding of EVs has been unmatched
> > > > with
> > > > > my understanding of batteries. Bummer.
> > > > >
> > > > > To those who responded then to my post, I continue
> > > > to
> > > > > be grateful to you for contributing to this list.
> > > > > Let's see if I can get more mileage/years under my
> > > > > belt next time/next pack...
> > > > > peace,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > > > > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch
> > > > too!
> > > > > Learn more at:
> > > > > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > > > > ____
> > > > > __/__|__\ __
> > > > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > > > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > > > > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> > > > came out of the steering
> > > > > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > > protection around
> > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > > Learn more at:
> > > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > > ____
> > > __/__|__\ __
> > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of
the
> > steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote Friday, September 29, 2006 4:10 PM:
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> > In the meantime, I have been following Roger's
> > advice of moving the constant voltage up towards 14.4V/12V
and
>
> I sure hope I didn't suggest 14.4V/12V battery (2.40V/cell) for
US125s;
> I'm one of the oddballs on the list who consistently recommends
using
> the 2.583V/cell (15.5V/12V or 7.75V/6V battery) value
recommended by
> USBMC for their product.
I was going to 7.05V/6V battery, or 14.10V/12V for my constant
voltage phase, and I think you were trying to tell me that was
too low. I was at 14.10V, because I wanted to avoid gassing the
batteries and causing grid corrosion. I do know one EV'er in the
Bay Area told me he rarely gasses his batteries, and he is
running US125s, and he has run several packs upwards of five
years each. This person is Scott Cornell, who runs a converted
VW Kharmann Ghia, and is a well-known EV'er, but I don't think he
is on the EVDL; he was one of my EV mentors during the years I
was getting started, and I still talk with him on occasion. I
was impressed by what he said (about not gassing), but I have not
discussed it much more than that with him, so I am probably the
blind man examining the "elephant" that is his charging regime.
So following your advice, Roger, and seeing what others were
saying, I did up voltages and currents, rather aggressively, till
I arrived at USBMC's recommendations, and my sg readings very
slowly started coming up. Those USBMC recommendations appear to
be IU, no final constant I mentioned. I settled on 5.5A constant
I. The Zivan K2 (that I have) is an IUI charger, final I for a
non-adjustable 3 hours. However, this Zivan K2 can be tricked
into being an IU charger by just setting the final I way low, so
the batteries never reach that I setting; however, no timed
shutoff will occur then.
>
> I will add the caution, however, that if you do use this value,
you
> really need to keep an eye on the battery temperature and
adjust the
> charge voltage accordingly because if you use just a bit higher
charge
> voltage than appropriate you could find that the current is
unable to
> taper off as it should. (The 2.583V/cell value is for 26.7C.)
The Zivan has a thermal probe. The charger is mounted in the
same place that the K&W BC-20 (from the VoltsRabbit kit) was, and
that is adjacent to the rear pack (2x4 array of batts), which is
in a polypropolene case. Currently the probe is duct-taped to
the side of the polypro case, and I realize that may not reflect
the temperature of the batts, but it is as good as I can do till
I decide how I want to drill a hole in the case and pass the
probe (that was one of my posts some months ago - ? on how to
drill polypro cases). I had thought that that probe being on the
side of that massive pack (even with the polypro) might be close
enough to temp, but now I'm thinking otherwise from some of what
I've seen the charger do recently, if it's pretty cool outside
and the batteries are warm from driving.
Currently I have a 15A timer (and I threw on a Killa-Watt meter),
so I estimate the charge time, and the timer does a dump. This
keeps me out of thermal runaway for now, although I've had to
dial down the bulk charge amps to 8.5-9.0 DC into the pack,
whereas I had it at about 11A before, which was comfortable with
my 20A line.
>
> > then after reading further posts and US Batteries' page (+
Bruce
> > Parmenter's postings) final U went to the 2.57V/cell
(15.6V/12V).
> > I also had a final 3-hr constant I phase for awhile at 4A,
then
> > on advice of Greg McCrea moved it to 5.5A. I finally got the
> > average of the pack to 1257sg.
>
> 4A might be a bit too low for these batteries, although they
might well
> taper to that level or below when new. USBMC recommends a
finish rate
> of C/40 (5.9A for your US125s), and suggests not exceeding this
level.
So this (USBMC) here looks like a final constant I suggestion.
But it doesn't appear to say for how long. I've seen you and
Mark Hanson mention stopping when the voltage stops rising. Wish
I could do that, but I get three hours on the K2, take it or
leave it. However, when I've monitored voltage, the voltage
stops rising at 1 to 2 hours, somewhere in there, so that means
the batts are being driven another hour (and heating up)
unneccessarily.
At this point, I think the timer is doing the dump. I doubt the
current is ramping back far enough on amps during the constant
voltage phase to fall into the K2's final I setting. I don't
want 120-degF batts for breakfast, although it wouldn't be quite
so hot at 8.5-9A as 11A.
>
> > Lots more sugar coating on the plates.
>
> Is it possible that you topped the batteries up with something
other
> than distilled water at some point?
That thought has crossed my mind. I don't think I added cake
frosting :-), sooo, sometimes (even before my current troubles) I
wonder whether the purified water I buy at Safeway (do you have
those in BC?) is really purified. At one time the label they had
said it was suitable for batteries and other distilled water
uses, and was created by reverse osmosis. I think it is ok.
There was some discussion on the EVDL a while back about this
topic, I believe (distilled vs purified or somesuch).
One other item that has bothered me a bit is that a year or two
ago I changed to a siphon water feed off of my apt deck one story
down to the car port. The EV friend who put the beginnings of
that together used a copper pipe or two and some brass fittings
that go down into a 3-gallon plastic container (formerly used for
distilled water) and attach to a long plastic hose I bought at
the hardware store. The water is stored with just a rubber
stopper on top of the container, and the siphon feed would only
be in there for a few hours while I'm doing the monthly battery
chores. Hopefully not a problem, right? Since there are no
shelves down in the carport, when I had Mike Brown's plastic
water bag approach, I would go get the ladder out of the storage
closet and put the bag on the paint shelf of the ladder next to
the car. Prior to that, before I had the car painted/bodywork
back in 1996, I just put the bag on the car's roof, but I don't
want to scratch the paint or take a chance on bending that thin
roof down. That bag started leaking after many years (I cut it
on a sharp edge on the ladder and the plastic was getting hard),
so I went to the approach I have now.
>
> > Appears Bob Bath has lost his pack,
>
> Nope; I didn't see an on-list follow up from Bob, but he did an
> equalising charge on his pack and those 2 stragglers popped
right back
> in line with the others.
Good show Bob!
>
> > Bruce had one fail after only a year
>
> Keep in mind that Bruce subjects his batteries to fairly
extreme duty as
> a result of his penchant for quick charging. Driving some
distance in a
> heavy vehicle such as his and then hooking up multiple chargers
and
> pumping 50-100A or more into the pack pretty much ensures an
elevated
> internal battery temperature, and with non-temperature
compensated
> chargers...
Yes, he does "rock" his batteries. However, the few times I've
been able to dump close to 30A into a pack in my car, boy, the
batteries sure do perk up. Yeehaw!, down the freeway at 65mph,
and they would barely break a sweat for the first ten miles on
the flats out of Calstart over in East Bay, and that's in a 96V
car. I can only imagine what 100A would make them do ;->
Also, Bruce had that downtime when he wasn't driving due to
injury, and his pack may have kinda rotted on the vine. However,
I was rather surprised he did replace it so early, since he has a
very short commute distance to work, but maybe he felt he had to
make classes, etc. That's a lotta lead to send to Battery
Heaven.
>
> > I'll post my data (spreadsheets - jpg capture I think) in the
> > next few days.
>
> Looking forward to it!
>
> If you get yourself of a copy of pdf995
<http://www.pdf995.com/> (free),
> then you can print your spreadsheet plots, etc. to it just as
you would
> to any printer and have a nice .pdf format document to share.
Printing
> Excel plots, etc. to pdf995 results in compact files that you
can zoom
> in on to see data without the image falling apart like a jpg or
other
> capture will.
I do have pdf995, and I will try that. I had the impression from
previous fiddling with it that the output wasn't very sharp or
something (oh, now I remember, when I was trying to print from
Internet Explorer, it seemed like it was also printing stuff out
from previous pdf995 runs). Well, I'll try it again and see if I
can make it behave.
I will be out of town Oct. 3-8, so if I don't make it before
then, I'll post after.
>
> > I hope someone can help me pull my pack out of the hole.
>
> I suspect the first (and perhaps only) remedial option you have
is to
> try an equalise charge; fully charge the pack, top up the
water, and
> then let it simmer away at 5-6A until the voltage quits rising
(2 or 3
> measurements taken 1hr apart remain essentially unchanged), or
until the
> s.g. quits rising over a similar observation interval. Bear in
mind
> that your s.g. will drop as the batteries age, and it also
varies with
> electrolyte temperature, so you may want to place more emphasis
on the
> observed capacity at 75A discharge rate than on the absolute
s.g. values
> you observe.
I did do an equalize charge just before (about a day) the last
set of hydrometer readings. The usual voltage top occurred at
two hours in at 6A.
I do have one other possibility. I bought four spares with this
pack (20 total), as I did with my last pack. These four have
been charged once a month, running them up at constant current
(4A) till their voltage quits rising. I may have added some
water to them once (I'd have to check my notes) and did take some
hydrometer readings early on (they were in the 1250s temperature
compensated), along with some light cycling. They have no
"sugarcoating". My thought was with the current "problem" I
could start cycling them for a couple of weeks shortly after my n
ext hydrometer readings towards the end of October, transplant
them into the car's pack, and bring the four batts with the
lowest sg from the car up to the deck closet container and put
them on 1/2-amp charge nearly ad-infinitum. See if the sugar
coating would go away. But from what Roland says, this may not
be the best idea, aside from the fact that I might hammer these
four in the car's pack.
My purpose with the "closet pack" was to provide four spares for
the car, and in the meantime I would cycle it by using it to
provide power as a super UPS for the computer (and get the
computer off the grid), and to provide lighting and some fridge
power when the power goes out during some of our inestimable
winter storms. One of my "bright" (yeah, right!) ideas. That
whole UPS scene is slowly pulling together. One of these
years...
Thanks for your help!
Chuck
--- End Message ---
