EV Digest 5950
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Ranger doner
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Ranger doner
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery boxes
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery boxes
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery boxes
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Ranger doner
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) useful links on EV costs, surplus equipment
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Charging Woes
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Heh, Russell beat me to the punch.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 11:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Ranger doner
Oh, you wanted DATA!
Just say so.
Results: up is better than down, tonneau is better than up,
mesh is worst of all, sometimes increasing the Cd from
0.48 to 0.53 by replacing solid with mesh tailgate:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200405/ai_n9439015
(Article showing the results of windtunnel tests.)
>From the article:
"The wind tunnel balance-measured all six components of aerodynamic force
and moment. Drag coefficients (Cd) for die trucks were normalized so the
focus could be kept on box aerodynamics. All the measurements showed the
same basic results-a small increase in drag with the tailgate down and a
larger increase with the tailgate off. These measurements were made with the
vehicle directly aligned with the stream of air."
Other studies and articles:
- Keep Your Tailgate Shut (Indiana University)
http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/tailgate.html
- Aerodynamic Characteristics of General Motors Truck (University of
Michigan)
(no longer available) http://sitemaker.umich.edu/um.gm.truck
- Ford Engineer Says Tonneau Covers Provide 5 % Fuel Savings
http://www.truckgadgets.com/fuel.htm
- PUTC Interview with Honda Ridgeline Chief Engineer, Gary Flint
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/2006/honda/ridgeline/interview.html
source: egnralnc's post at 3/22/06 on
http://www.ontariogasprices.com/Forum_MSG.aspx?topic=170702
after a lengthy up! down! shouting match
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Ranger doner
Rush wrote:
> Yes I have had stock tailgates, but in any case I wasn't
> talking about *me*, I was referring to *other full timers*
I understood this; I just wondered if you had actually measured and
difference/improvement since you had the means available, or if you had
just accepted the other full-timers' anecdotal claims.
> I wouldn't be too *sure* about that Roger... lots of those
> old timers are retired machinists, electricans, engineers
> etc, who are used to being able to *prove* what they say. I'm
> sure that some of them have logs with orders of precision to
> the hundredths... They love to discuss how many mpg they get
> with a headwind and with a tailwind, going down a hill and up
> a hill. They have lots of experience as a collective whole.
Great! Did any of them share any data with you *quantifying* the
difference between a stock tailgate and a vented one *without* a 5th
wheel attached?
> > It is entirely possible that the open tailgate mileage is
> > *worse* than either of the alternatives.
>
> And the opposite is true also, it is entirely possible that
> the open tailgate milage is *better* that the alternative.
> Many things are *possible* Grasshopper... <G>
Well said! ;^>
> Roger, what do mesh/screen tailgate/loading ramps have to do
> with tailgates?
Just that one should not assume that just because one can largely see
through something it will offer no resistance to the passage of air,
especially at highway speeds.
Obviously, the mesh tailgate/loading ramp on a trailer is about 3-4x the
crossectional area as a tailgate, so the effect will be much more
apparent, however, the mesh truck tailgate will also exhibit resistance
to airflow that an open tailgate will not.
The suggestion here is that the aerodynamics will be different; a mesh
tailgate will exhibit *some* resistance to airflow and so while air may
pass through it, the air will slow somewhat and slower/still air may
accumulate in front of the tailgate, similar to what might happen with a
solid tailgate, though perhaps to a lesser degree.
> As usual the thread has veered off in another direction, they
> have a tendancy to do that <G>. But the intent is there, to
> give *evidence*, however unreliable you may deem it to be
> that either supports or does not support your *assumption*.
The only issue I have is that (with the notable exception of Lynn's
recent post) the *evidence* offered has either been unsubtantiated
opinion or anecdotal in nature. This is fine for those who are
satisfied with such, but I'm the sort that requires *quantitative* data
to be convinced one way or the other. (And I'm not asking for anyone to
convince me, I'm just observing that *if* quantitative data were offered
I would find it more convincing ;^)
> If you are pissed that the thread is not following your
> direction, then that is another matter..
Naa, I don't particularly care where the thread goes; I just wanted to
make sure that people were aware that the tailgate thing was only
mentioned as an example of why one should seek *quantitative* proof that
something results in an efficiency improvement rather than assuming that
it will.
I don't *know* which tailgate option is most efficient (or if a flatdeck
is more efficient than a stock box), because I haven't measured it for
myself. However, the Mythbusters episode (however imperfect) provides
sufficient evidence for me that should I convert a pickup, I will
certainly measure the various tailgate options rather than assuming the
open tailgate is better.
> It's not that you are not trusted Roger, you have contributed
> a great deal of your knowledge and we respect your words.
Thanks for the kind words, however, in this case there really is no
reason to trust me! I haven't claimed *anything* (open/closed/vented
tailgate or flatdeck/stock box) is more efficient than something else;
all I've done is offer reasons illustrating why it is important to
question one's assumptions and evaluate the options for oneself.
> But others also have experiences and knowledge and have the
> right to express it without being told that we are sticking
> our heads in the sand...
My 'head-in-the-sand' comment was really made with Joe Strubner (sp?) in
mind, not yourself or others in this thread.
I really am hoping that if this thread doesn't just die off, *someone*
will offer up some nice hard data showing which option ws measurably
more efficient for them.
So far we've just had a couple people saying they either do or don't
believe the Mythbusters result that the closed tailgate is more
efficient, yourself reporting that 'full timers' believe their 5th wheel
vented/mesh tailgates result in improved mileage (but no indication if
this is with or without the 5th wheel attached, nor is any quantitative
data offered and you don't seem to have measured to see if your own
tailgate results in an improvement for you or not), one person
suggesting that racers have found the tailgate up to be more efficient
at high speeds, and Lynn reporting quantitative data supporting his
assertion that a partial tonneau cover improves the efficency of his
E10.
Even though some are questioning if Lynn's data is the best it could
possibly be, what speaks volumes to me is that GM originally fitted an
unusual partial tonneau cover to the vehicle. Clearly *they* believed
this was an improvement over the open box, and, one would suspect, over
an open box without tailgate. Since the partial tonneau cover is an
unusual item, and represents additional cost, I expect GM engineers
measured enough of an improvement with this arangement to justify it to
the bean counters.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Money is not the issue at this point in time. I am just trying to get
> different ideas from different people. Price will came later.
>
No, money is the *primary* issue - if you have enough, you *can* get a
>95%-efficient motor and controller, you *can* buy cutting-edge
lithium batteries and BMS, you *can* afford all the other unobtainium
that other listees can only dream about for a ground-up creation, like
access to a wind tunnel, or exotic body materials. That's what many
hundreds of thousands of dollars can buy.
Bottom line: are you a hobbiest who wants to get as much as possible
out of as little money as possible, a converter who wants to do this
as a business, or someone with deep pockets who wants to know what he
can do with all that cash (or somewhere in between)?
There are, of course, those that don't even exist on that continuum,
who are just seeing how much output the list can generate, but have no
desire to do anything with the information supplied. The EVDL gets
them from time to time, as well as argumentative trolls (anyone
remember Troy?) who don't even like EVs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Heh, Russell beat me to the punch.
>
Hey, Cor, we'll just keep deluging them with data 'til they agree...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Check this out...
> http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_PDFs/EAASV_101803.pdf
Someone posted it a few years ago - are lithium batteries now $500/kwh
like they show in their price graph, or is that only for 18650 cells?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Answers next to questions..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 4:17 PM
Subject: Build EV For Someone Else
> If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
> requirements:
>
> No future upgrades. This can't be promised but using the best Zilla
controller & the Best Rudman charger with regulators would be a start. I'd
use a 240v Iota dc/dc or a Vicor product. At least a 9" ADC.
>
> All new parts
>
> Total weight, 2500 lbs This will be hard. One of the proven cars that
can do this is the Datxun 1200. NOt many left. Another candidate would be
a VW Bug or Kit car. Festiva. Aspire. Fiesta. Justy. Starlet. Metro.
Maybe a VW Rabbit. Fiat 600. Fiat 850. Many of these might work with the
back seat taken out if you don't mind losing the back seat. Can't speak for
the drivelines on these little cars. The Datsun will take it. Not sure of
the others.
>
> 0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
>
> 60 mile range
>
> Using Lead Acid Batteries Use just enough batteries to get your range.
It will be in the 240 to 300 volt range using Optimas or Exides..
>
>
>
> What components and how many would you use? Listed above. Lawrnece
Rhodes.....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Oct 2006 at 8:26, Roland Wiench wrote:
> It is normal when some batteries get over 4 or more years, that the finish
> voltage will be higher than when new.
Hmmm, I've never seen this. My finish voltage has always declined as the
batteries aged. Has anyone else ever seen a >rising< finish voltage as
batteries age, when all else is held equal? I wonder what would cause it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think, Bob, that you will have to bring down your finish
voltage. I have seen Lee mention this many times - older
batteries have to turn down the voltage. ? is how far. I guess
to the point where the taper off occurs as you want it. Another
thing is if your pack is out-of-balance (I suppose that would be
in the charging voltage measurement), then you may have troubles
achieving taper off. At least that's been my experience. Either
taper off or throw a timer on it so you don't get into thermal
runaway.
I think I have heard from HomePower magazine that Richard Perez
was able to revive a set of batteries (Trojan L16?) where the
lights had been left on when the owners went away. The batteries
were dead, dead, dead, and so sulphated. I believe the L16s have
the same tops as the US125s and the others. Richard was able to
flush those batteries out, put in new electrolyte, and use them
for many more years, although I recall hearing they never had
full capacity, but at least enough capacity. Would be a messy
job I bet. I'm not sure where to put the finger on the story
(find it), but I might be able to track it down. According to
how I read Roland's post below, it would imply that Richard
would've had to put rather weak electrolyte into those batteries,
right?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger &
Roland
> Hello Bob,
>
> It is normal when some batteries get over 4 or more years, that
the finish
> voltage will be higher than when new. There is more SO4 and O2
particles in
> the electrolyte as it ages.
>
> In large industrial cells, that the tops can be remove, we
remove the old
> electrolyte, filter it, or replace it with new electrolyte that
has the
> exact same specific gravity reading of the old electrolyte that
was removed.
>
> At the same time, we would wash the separators, plates with
distill water
> and may replace some separators.
>
> You never install a electrolyte S.G. lower or higher than the
original
> electrolyte S.G.
>
> The problem with seal tops, is that you cannot do this. If you
tip the
> battery to remove the electrolyte, this makes it worst, because
the SO4 and
> O2 particles that have settle on the bottom may causing
additional shorting
> of the grids.
>
> If I do equalization charging (2.57V) of my Trojan 260 AH
batteries, about
> every three months, the finishing voltage will be between 10
and 15 volts.
>
> I will stop charging at that point, because my batteries are at
99.99%
> anyway according to the E-meter and the S.G. reading.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 6:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger &
Roland
>
>
> > This has been a good thread, however it does leave me
> > in the same spot I started:
> > Either I set my charger at a lower voltage, and the
> > batts. force a current taper-down, or
> > I set my charger at USB spec, and never get the
> > taper-down effect. That means that I finish off at
> > about 16A. 16A finish current would normally dictate
> > that your batteries are about done. In my case, it
> > indicates some whiskers (shorts) as near as I can
> > figure, and the batteries are otherwise fine (so far;
> > at this point).
> >
> > Stay tuned/charged...
> >
> > --- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Roland,
> > >
> > > That is quite an explanation! I think this is
> > > basically
> > > high-school chemistry, but that was a loooong time
> > > ago for me, so
> > > it will take awhile for me to wrap myself around it.
> > >
> > > When the batteries were delivered, the electrolyte
> > > levels were
> > > the lowest I ever recall seen in new batteries, and
> > > I've
> > > previously had one pack each of US2300 and Trojan
> > > T125, the
> > > former being my starter pack in 1994. I think both
> > > those packs
> > > had, new, electrolyte levels much closer to the
> > > meniscus level
> > > than this one I have now, and the Trojans started at
> > > about 1245
> > > before I put a charge on them, and they snapped up
> > > to 1260 or
> > > better in short order. Back in 1994, I was just
> > > learning how to
> > > handle a hydrometer, so I have don't have an
> > > extensive collection
> > > of readings (I wish I did - that was my best pack so
> > > far when it
> > > peaked after about two to three years of use, and I
> > > several times
> > > went over 60 miles on a charge in hilly country).
> > >
> > > I have thought about "burning down" the electrolyte
> > > levels in the
> > > cells to about where they were at the start, and
> > > then slowly (or
> > > should I do it all at once?) fill back up over
> > > several months
> > > with 1270sg electrolyte. I have "spiked" batteries
> > > before with
> > > 96% H2SO4, but I doubt that's quite what I want to
> > > do here.
> > > Would the battery supply shop be the place to ask
> > > about 1270sg
> > > electrolyte? The 96% H2SO4 was given to me by an EV
> > > friend, and
> > > I've passed it on to another EV'er.
> > >
> > > This idea of the sg not reflecting the true state of
> > > charge is
> > > interesting, and I think I've seen it on this list
> > > before. That
> > > gives me some hope that I can do something about it
> > > (probably
> > > paragraph above).
> > >
> > > The batteries seem to motivate the car down the road
> > > just fine,
> > > it's just the voltage is down about a volt or two
> > > across the
> > > entire pack under load. I really don't get that
> > > ugly sagging
> > > feeling like when there is a dead cell.
> > >
> > > After I ran the 75A load test, right at the end,
> > > once I pulled
> > > the "plug" and was at no-load, there were a couple
> > > of things I
> > > remember. Had a look in some of the cells, and it
> > > was very
> > > cloudy, and as best I could tell, all the white
> > > sugar coating
> > > that had been there up to that point was gone off
> > > the tops of the
> > > plates. Also, the electrolyte level did not drop
> > > significantly -
> > > here I was under the impression that you don't add
> > > water to
> > > discharged batteries because the electrolyte level
> > > will rise as
> > > you charge them back up, which didn't seem to happen
> > > significantly in my case either. Or is the dropping
> > > of
> > > electrolyte something that takes awhile (several
> > > hours)? I had
> > > my pack on the charger in about 40 minutes from the
> > > time I
> > > finished the load test.
> > >
> > > I don't have a red goo issue, that was on Bob Bath's
> > > post.
> > >
> > > Also, I didn't mean to hijack the thread from Bob.
> > > It looked
> > > like he was done, and the Subject was right on for
> > > me. Sorry!
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:28 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to
> > > Roger &
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello Chuck,
> > > >
> > > > You may have given me a clue, when you said your
> > > batteries were
> > > deliver with
> > > > low electrolyte.
> > > >
> > > > If I remember right, is that the water to acid
> > > ratio is about 5
> > > parts of
> > > > water to 3 parts of water.
> > > >
> > > > Water being 1.0 sg and sulfuric acid is 1.8.
> > > Adding 5 (five
> > > parts of water)
> > > > to 1.8+1.8+1.8 (three parts of acid) = 10.4
> > > >
> > > > Divide 10.4 by eight parts = 1.3 SG electrolyte
> > > while its hot.
> > > When cool
> > > > down it will be about 1.75 SG.
> > > >
> > > > If a container (cell) is low with 1.75 SG
> > > electrolyte (reading
> > > 1.75 sg)
> > > > than adding just water might add another part of
> > > water or:
> > > >
> > > > (6 x 1.0)+ 3 x 1.8) = 11.4
> > > >
> > > > 11.4/9 parts = 1.26 SG while hot and may have
> > > reduce it to
> > > 1.24 when cool.
> > > >
> > > > So it took more over charging increase the
> > > electrolyte to 1.257
> > > SG. even
> > > > though the plates were charge to 100%.
> > > >
> > > > If the original reading of the electrolyte was at
> > > 1.75 SG and
> > > you added
> > > > water which reduce it to 1.24 SG, You may have
> > > over charge it
> > > to raise the
> > > > SG.
> > > >
> > > > If new batteries are low and the factory did not
> > > fill the cell
> > > all the way
> > > > out, you must add the same SG electrolyte to the
> > > proper level.
> > > >
> > > > The white floating crystals is the sulfate or SO4
> > > from the
> > > negative plates,
> > > > meaning you are releasing the sulfate from the
> > > negative plates
> > > at a too fast
> > > > of a charge. The sulfate is ejecting from the
> > > negative plates
> > > as particles
> > > > instead of dissolving very slowly.
> > > >
> > > > The red goo is the from the positive plate which
> > > is lead oxide
> > > or PbO2.
> > > > This is cause by high and deep discharges that
> > > blow out the O2
> > > oxide which
> > > > may be a red rust color.
> > > >
> > > > The problem now, is to find out what the real
> > > charge rating of
> > > the plates
> > > > are at. They may no longer correspond to the SG
> > > of the diluted
> > > acid.
> > > >
> > > > One way that might work, is to let the electrolyte
> > > level get
> > > down to the
> > > > level you thought was low. Charge the batteries at
> > > a low rate
> > > as to not to
> > > > eject more material as high SG you can go.Read the
> > > SG which
> > > should be higher
> > > > now, because there is less water by removing 1
> > > part.
> > > >
> > > > Then finish adding electrolyte as should have been
> > > done in the
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > Learn more at:
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of
the steering
> > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > I'll post my data (spreadsheets - jpg capture I think) in the
> > next few days.
>
> Looking forward to it!
>
> If you get yourself of a copy of pdf995
<http://www.pdf995.com/> (free),
> then you can print your spreadsheet plots, etc. to it just as
you would
> to any printer and have a nice .pdf format document to share.
Printing
> Excel plots, etc. to pdf995 results in compact files that you
can zoom
> in on to see data without the image falling apart like a jpg or
other
> capture will.
Roger,
I tried printing the spreadsheet with pdf995, and as I feared the
spreadsheet was way down about page 24 of the pdf file, after
other stuff I tried printing with pdf995 many months ago. I
looked at C:\pdf995\res\pdf995.ini, and there is a Combine
Documents entry set to 1. However, changing stuff in this file
probably won't do me any good, since the file is created by
pdf995 on the fly when I create the pdf file. I don't see any
settings in Page Setup of Microsoft Works that would affect this
(nor have I in any other app trying to use pdf995. And I don't
think I have any other way to modify the pdf file. It's
conceivable that the Presentation Manager program that came with
my scanner might have a route, but I'll have to explore that.
Any hints?
Thanks,
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would say it is a specialty item and a supply /demand thing, and a well
constructed 914 battery box ready to install is not something your gonna buy
at walmart so they sell for what the market will pay.No reason I know of you
cant use plastic to house batteries Mike y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 1:26 AM
Subject: Battery boxes
What are the function of battery boxes/racks other than holding the
batteries in place? Why would a box cost over $2000? (box and rack set for
914 at electroauto.com)
I've seen sites mention making these from steel, aluminum, even wood. Why
not plastic or fiberglass to reduce weight?
Thanks,
Mike Trefry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike
My battery boxes are made of fiberglass over plywood. The primary concerns are
carrying the weight
and surviving exposure to the electrolyte. I'm not concerned with keeping them
warm in the winter
but the box will be exposed to road salt and dirt. I have incorporated venting
to remove H2 and
hopefully supply cooling.
How well will they work? I'll let you know.
Dave Cover
--- Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What are the function of battery boxes/racks other than holding the
> batteries in place? Why would a box cost over $2000? (box and rack set for
> 914 at electroauto.com)
>
>
>
> I've seen sites mention making these from steel, aluminum, even wood. Why
> not plastic or fiberglass to reduce weight?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Trefry
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Michael,
Make it out of a non conductive material so the batteries are isolated from
the frame of the EV. My battery enclosures are made out of 1/4 inch thick
fiberglass sheets that I got from a local fiberglass company.
My sheets were 4 foot by 8 foot which was smooth on one side (the inside of
the box) and rough on the outside. I pick up 2 x 2 inch fiber glass angles
for the top lip for the cover to seal down on.
Also install 4 large fiber glass angles at the bottom of the box, for
bolting it down.
You can pick up all the bonding compound, resin, fiberglass putty, and cloth
from the a fiberglass company. They will show you how to assemble these
boxes with this material.
Instead of making one large hinge cover that would not swing up high enough
(would hit the hatch back cover) I used two battery box covers. Also I
stall a partition across the box and angle for installing a stainless steel
piano hinge for the front cover.
I the glue on 2 inch thick Dow Corning Blue foam and than cover it with a
marine rug to protect the foam.
The interior of the box was then coated with gross white epoxy from those
sink and tub recoating kits you can get from a hardware store.
This is a lot of work and time consuming and it cost me in materials about
$500.00 back in 1985.
I use batteries that the tops are 1/8 inch wider then the sides of the
batteries. I install batteries where the tops touch together which leaves
1/4 space between the battery cases. I also leave 1/2 space between the
wall of the box and the batteries.
This 1/2 space was used at one time for a series of Kat's battery heater
blankets.
These batteries are not bolted down in a battery box. I never had any
batteries move around in the three sets of batteries in 30 years.
The only way they would come out, is if I tip the vehicle upside down.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 11:26 PM
Subject: Battery boxes
> What are the function of battery boxes/racks other than holding the
> batteries in place? Why would a box cost over $2000? (box and rack set for
> 914 at electroauto.com)
>
>
>
> I've seen sites mention making these from steel, aluminum, even wood. Why
> not plastic or fiberglass to reduce weight?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Trefry
>
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:29 PM
Subject: RE: Ranger doner
> Rush wrote:
>
> > Yes I have had stock tailgates, but in any case I wasn't
> > talking about *me*, I was referring to *other full timers*
Big snip
> all I've done is offer reasons illustrating why it is important to
> question one's assumptions and evaluate the options for oneself.
>
> > But others also have experiences and knowledge and have the
> > right to express it without being told that we are sticking
> > our heads in the sand...
>
> My 'head-in-the-sand' comment was really made with Joe Strubner (sp?) in
> mind, not yourself or others in this thread.
I'll have you know that MY head is not stuck in the sand!!! I am also not
willing to accept what someone else says (including government-funded
studies) as gospel truth without verifiable facts to substantiate their
assertions. I have had friends that did try both open and closed tailgate
driving in the past, and they claimed "open" tailgate had better gas
mileage, but it was so long ago that I don't even remember who it was; it
had to be full-sized pickups, though, as it was before mini-pickups were
available in the States.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> I really am hoping that if this thread doesn't just die off, *someone*
> will offer up some nice hard data showing which option ws measurably
> more efficient for them.
>
> So far we've just had a couple people saying they either do or don't
> believe the Mythbusters result that the closed tailgate is more
> efficient, yourself reporting that 'full timers' believe their 5th wheel
> vented/mesh tailgates result in improved mileage (but no indication if
> this is with or without the 5th wheel attached, nor is any quantitative
> data offered and you don't seem to have measured to see if your own
> tailgate results in an improvement for you or not), one person
> suggesting that racers have found the tailgate up to be more efficient
> at high speeds, and Lynn reporting quantitative data supporting his
> assertion that a partial tonneau cover improves the efficency of his
> E10.
>
> Even though some are questioning if Lynn's data is the best it could
> possibly be, what speaks volumes to me is that GM originally fitted an
> unusual partial tonneau cover to the vehicle. Clearly *they* believed
> this was an improvement over the open box, and, one would suspect, over
> an open box without tailgate. Since the partial tonneau cover is an
> unusual item, and represents additional cost, I expect GM engineers
> measured enough of an improvement with this arangement to justify it to
> the bean counters.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
However Nawaz has indicated that because of the
amount of antimony used in these batteries, it is not
necessary to lower the voltage as these batteries age.
As it stands now, the batteries will hit 175, 15A,
not current taper, and on some days I lower the
current, and it will hit 180V; closer to what they
should be charged to.
This gets me to an SG of 1265, and so far, doesn't
appear to affect the longevity of the batteries.
Stay tuned; I'll keep the list apprised...
--- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think, Bob, that you will have to bring down your
> finish
> voltage. I have seen Lee mention this many times -
> older
> batteries have to turn down the voltage. ? is how
> far. I guess
> to the point where the taper off occurs as you want
> it. Another
> thing is if your pack is out-of-balance (I suppose
> that would be
> in the charging voltage measurement), then you may
> have troubles
> achieving taper off. At least that's been my
> experience. Either
> taper off or throw a timer on it so you don't get
> into thermal
> runaway.
>
> I think I have heard from HomePower magazine that
> Richard Perez
> was able to revive a set of batteries (Trojan L16?)
> where the
> lights had been left on when the owners went away.
> The batteries
> were dead, dead, dead, and so sulphated. I believe
> the L16s have
> the same tops as the US125s and the others. Richard
> was able to
> flush those batteries out, put in new electrolyte,
> and use them
> for many more years, although I recall hearing they
> never had
> full capacity, but at least enough capacity. Would
> be a messy
> job I bet. I'm not sure where to put the finger on
> the story
> (find it), but I might be able to track it down.
> According to
> how I read Roland's post below, it would imply that
> Richard
> would've had to put rather weak electrolyte into
> those batteries,
> right?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to
> Roger &
> Roland
>
>
> > Hello Bob,
> >
> > It is normal when some batteries get over 4 or
> more years, that
> the finish
> > voltage will be higher than when new. There is
> more SO4 and O2
> particles in
> > the electrolyte as it ages.
> >
> > In large industrial cells, that the tops can be
> remove, we
> remove the old
> > electrolyte, filter it, or replace it with new
> electrolyte that
> has the
> > exact same specific gravity reading of the old
> electrolyte that
> was removed.
> >
> > At the same time, we would wash the separators,
> plates with
> distill water
> > and may replace some separators.
> >
> > You never install a electrolyte S.G. lower or
> higher than the
> original
> > electrolyte S.G.
> >
> > The problem with seal tops, is that you cannot do
> this. If you
> tip the
> > battery to remove the electrolyte, this makes it
> worst, because
> the SO4 and
> > O2 particles that have settle on the bottom may
> causing
> additional shorting
> > of the grids.
> >
> > If I do equalization charging (2.57V) of my Trojan
> 260 AH
> batteries, about
> > every three months, the finishing voltage will be
> between 10
> and 15 volts.
> >
> > I will stop charging at that point, because my
> batteries are at
> 99.99%
> > anyway according to the E-meter and the S.G.
> reading.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 6:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks
> to Roger &
> Roland
> >
> >
> > > This has been a good thread, however it does
> leave me
> > > in the same spot I started:
> > > Either I set my charger at a lower voltage, and
> the
> > > batts. force a current taper-down, or
> > > I set my charger at USB spec, and never get the
> > > taper-down effect. That means that I finish off
> at
> > > about 16A. 16A finish current would normally
> dictate
> > > that your batteries are about done. In my case,
> it
> > > indicates some whiskers (shorts) as near as I
> can
> > > figure, and the batteries are otherwise fine (so
> far;
> > > at this point).
> > >
> > > Stay tuned/charged...
> > >
> > > --- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Roland,
> > > >
> > > > That is quite an explanation! I think this is
> > > > basically
> > > > high-school chemistry, but that was a loooong
> time
> > > > ago for me, so
> > > > it will take awhile for me to wrap myself
> around it.
> > > >
> > > > When the batteries were delivered, the
> electrolyte
> > > > levels were
> > > > the lowest I ever recall seen in new
> batteries, and
> > > > I've
> > > > previously had one pack each of US2300 and
> Trojan
> > > > T125, the
> > > > former being my starter pack in 1994. I think
> both
> > > > those packs
> > > > had, new, electrolyte levels much closer to
> the
> > > > meniscus level
> > > > than this one I have now, and the Trojans
> started at
> > > > about 1245
> > > > before I put a charge on them, and they
> snapped up
> > > > to 1260 or
> > > > better in short order. Back in 1994, I was
> just
> > > > learning how to
> > > > handle a hydrometer, so I have don't have an
> > > > extensive collection
> > > > of readings (I wish I did - that was my best
> pack so
> > > > far when it
> > > > peaked after about two to three years of use,
> and I
> > > > several times
> > > > went over 60 miles on a charge in hilly
> country).
> > > >
> > > > I have thought about "burning down" the
> electrolyte
> > > > levels in the
> > > > cells to about where they were at the start,
> and
> > > > then slowly (or
> > > > should I do it all at once?) fill back up over
> > > > several months
> > > > with 1270sg electrolyte. I have "spiked"
> batteries
> > > > before with
> > > > 96% H2SO4, but I doubt that's quite what I
> want to
> > > > do here.
>
=== message truncated ===
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery
> On 1 Oct 2006 at 8:26, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > It is normal when some batteries get over 4 or more years, that the
> > finish
> > voltage will be higher than when new.
>
> Hmmm, I've never seen this. My finish voltage has always declined as the
> batteries aged. Has anyone else ever seen a >rising< finish voltage as
> batteries age, when all else is held equal? I wonder what would cause it.
It is cause by the "SOME" battery plates compound be coming too soft and is
ejecting SO4 and O2 into the electrolyte making it more conductive.
This is why "SOME" have to turn the charging current down to prevent more
battery plates erosion.
Doing long finish low ampere charges, it may change the battery chemistry to
PB + H2O + H2SO4 + PBO2, but not all of it which will leave "SOME" SO4 +
SO4 + H2O + H2SO4 + O2 + O2 in solution.
Also "SOME" batteries in the very high ampere-hour range that have very hard
plates, that are design for fast super charging at 2.8 volt per cell, ends
up with a higher finishing voltage. I never took these above 90% which was
recommended, which got me to 11 years of usage.
Roland
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Although I still have the interior to put back together, the tunnel rack to
install, and am waiting on my charger, I’m otherwise done with the build of my
EV (Phase I anyway, where I can drive it out of the garage, clean up the garage
and wash the car). I’m still waiting on some parts, though, and the interior
isn’t done yet, so I don’t have pictures yet.
I do, however, have information that could prove helpful to someone. The links
are in the “technical” section of the table on my EV page,
http://www.davesevs.com/electriccar.htm
The first item is a nauseatingly detailed table of expenses, with vendor
listings. Here’s the direct link.
http://www.davesevs.com/squirrel/Cost%20Table.htm
The second is this same data in a pie chart broken down by category (such as EV
components, donor vehicle, tools, etc.). The categories are listed on both the
chart and the table. Here’s the direct link.
http://www.davesevs.com/squirrel/cost%20graph.jpg
Lastly, I found what we usually tell people they need in order to build an EV
to be somewhat lacking, when I realized I kept having to buy more stuff. Here
is a more complete list, though I realize that some will need more, and some
less. This table is also compiled in nauseating detail, with possible vendors
listed.
http://www.davesevs.com/squirrel/stuff%20you%20need.htm
When I get the main page up for this new EV, I’ll formally announce it and
explain the name, but I thought this might interest someone in the meantime.
I’m also putting together an inventory of excess material that I want GONE.
Local pickup is preferred (in fact, I’m still considering whether I’ll ship ANY
of this stuff), and the price is $50 for all of it. Here’s a partial list:
*Variac, twinned 120V units. Takes 240V input or each unit can be wired
independently – 20A rating. Currently wired for 240V in, 0-280V out.
*Box of misc. parts wired to work with the variac to make a vari-bad boy
charger. Fully instrumented. Monitors AC volts, AC amps (but I have to put
that meter back on), DC volts, and DC amps. (nice 0-100A ammeter that doesn’t
use a shunt). Includes 35A rectifier.
*about 6 feet of 1 X 1 X 1/8” angle iron
*about 6 feet of 1 X 1 X 1/8” square steel tube
*two 6 ft. lengths of 3/8-16 threaded rod – B7 steel
*several misc. pieces of aluminum skin/aluminum core honeycomb panels and
fiberglass skin/nomex core honeycomb panels. Odd shapes and sizes.
*88 1” long stainless steel 5/16 FINE THREAD nuts and bolts. These came with
my batteries, and they aren’t long enough to go through the post, the lug, a
ring terminal, 2 washers, and a lockwasher.
*A whole bunch of red and black battery boots – these are the round “alternator
style” for L lugs, and are rated for 2/0 cable. I find that they are really
too small to fit over the heatshrink, though, and I typically slit them on the
bottom and ty-wrap them onto the cable end.
*Misc. Cable lengths – 4/0 black, 2/0 orange, 1 gage black.
*A large section of clear 0.080” thick acrylic – use for covers, etc. About 3’
X 4’, but with a notch cut out of one end.
*One heater relay – P & B, magnetic blowout. – no snubber network
*One class T fuse of unknown heritage – 350A, I think. The guy I got my
contactors from threw it in with the shipment as a bonus. Not sure of the
voltage rating, but is was suitable for a lower voltage EV (mine comes in at
252V).
*If you want them, I’ve also got a lot of various wood scraps that can be used
as spacers, or a bookshelf to hold your EV technical files, etc.
*Also misc. fiero parts – ’86 GT V6 ECU, radiator, A/C condenser and compressor
(with tubing), chrome valve cover bolts, red valve covers and intake manifold,
spare tire. I’ll separate these from the rest of the items since most people
aren’t doing a fiero, so won’t have use for these.
If anyone is interested, let me know. I’m near Savannah, Georgia.
David Brandt
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--- Begin Message ---
I had two stinkers in my lawn mower pack , as I have a 10 postion switch
with I can switch around and look at each battery voltage i can see better
what's going on . The new batterys I put in have taken alot of playing
around to get them working with the rest . They charge faster then the
others , ,
Will it hurt anything if I continue to drive
light cycles with the bad battery?
can you see the voltage on the one bad battery , could you run some wires to
it and see its voltage when driving . Of course you have to be carful as
those wired will have pack voltage on them
Would it be better
to remove the stinker and jumper it until I get the
replacement?
can you adjust your charge to a lower voltage , if so then just pull it and
go with one less . If you put a new one in , you could put some kind of
shunt regulator to pass the extra current that the other need . I put a few
Lee Hart regulators on my new one ,
How bad is it going to be to put one new
battery in with the ~14 month old pack? What other
option do I have? I'm hoping the one dead battery is
an anomaly, I was hoping to get 4 or more years out of
this pack.
TiM
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