EV Digest 5951
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor size questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Motor size questions
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Ranger doner
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: article: Electric Harley
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 06LNN Videos-n-such Was: Last Saturday's Oregonian 'Electric Drag
Racer' Article
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) NEDRA welcomes new Tech Director
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hot, stinky motor. What does it mean?
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Nedra Record Setting
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery boxes
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Battery boxes
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: NEDRA welcomes new Tech Director
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery boxes
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Nanosafe batteries
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Battery boxes
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery boxes
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Multi Meter Recommendation Needed!
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Electric HP to tow a 81" reel mower?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Multi Meter Recommendation Needed!
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Battery boxes
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
>> That's not quite right. If you use too large a motor, then the amount
>> of
>> power you need ends up being so far down on the curve that you run in
>> the
>> low efficiency zone for that motor.
>>
> When you say curve here, you are saying (electrical) power curve not RPM
> curve... right?
Nope, what I'm talking about has both. Usually called "torque curve" or
"motor curves", like this:
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2119/mt2119torquecurvefancooled.PDF
It shows torque vs RPM vs current vs efficiency, at a given applied
voltage. The above chart also shows a couple more curves for a couple
more 'calculated' voltages.
A proper curve would actually be a three dimensional plot showing all of
the above at various applied voltages. It's a bit difficult to publish
three dimensional charts though, and most manufacturers don't even provide
enough test points to draw one. However, they normally do enough tests to
figure out what are called the "motor constants", which are basically some
figures you can punch into an equation and calculate the motors
performance at various points.
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but a fellow named Uve has
published a web page that will calculate motor (and battery, etc.)
performance for just about any vehicle at just about any speed, on any
slope, with just about any head wind.
You could punch in the figures for your proposed vehicle and see what
effect changing motors would have on battery current, range, etc.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/8679/evcalc.html
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: Motor size questions
The extra 50 pounds or so of the bigger motor would displace a
battery, or be an extra 1% to 2% more weight for the vehicle.
So if you have to lose a battery to free up weight for the motor,
sounds like the smaller motor wins (provided it is still big enough
for the job). If the number of batteries remains the same, and the
bigger motor is 2% or more more efficient, then the bigger motor wins
in city driving. If you do mostly high speed driving, then the better
efficiency of the bigger motor probably makes it the winner.
There are so many things that effect how much power a EV is using , 2 %
would be 2 amps if your using 100 , I see a 10% drop in power used just from
thing getting warmed up after 10 miles . I had both a 9 and a 11 in the same
truck , It was a light truck 3200 lbs and I couldn't tell the difference
between the two , But Roland , with a heaver car said he could see a
difference between the 9 and 11 and the 11 used less. I had a car with a 6.7
and replaced it with a 9 and the 9 used a lot less , but the 6.7 would get
so hot you couldn't touch it . Heat is probable a good way to tell if your
losing eff in the motor .
--- Scott Serr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
It sounds like going from a 9" motor to a 11" motor has no inherent
downside on range. What really matters is if you are running a
motor
(any motor) in it's efficient RPM range. There is no inherent loss
in efficiency with a larger motor. ...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry"
So I've decided to go DC to allow the maximum flexibility of tweaking and
tuning.
I just visited the Zilla web-site, and it looks like the controllers are
backordered over 6 months.
It kind of like the EV1 we got a taste of something so good , but now the
well seem dry .
What are the chances of finding a used Zilla, and would I want to?
I'd like to see one on e bay , just to see how much it goes for . As they
say everything has a price ,
I'd sell my used 1k 156v used zilla for 4k , ya I wouldn't buy a use one for
that , maybe 2500 , . My 2 k , $10,000 , ,, maybe ,
Its like oil , when you can't get it , the price goes to the moon . Thing is
, hi prices like this would stop allot of people from getting into Ev's ,
Are there any other controllers AS good for the EV hobbyist?
not that I've seen , maybe if I paint a curtis green it will work better,
got to do something .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks!
-Ralph
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 12:53:47 -0700
"Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you go to our website, www.TEVA2.com , clik on the projects link on the
> left, and scoll down to
> "Mark Brueggemann's S-10 Bed Lift Details", you'll see one way of making a
> tilt bed work.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Ranger doner
>
>
> > See http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/et/tilt_bed.html
> > and ask them how they did it.
> >
> > Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lyle,
That's it!! If its a one of a kind then this is the very bike that I saw. The
other explanation is that they made more than one. I saw the bike about 10
years ago- it might be before the museum aquired it, but at any rate that's
what it looked like- the batteries, color, tail section, etc.
All the Best,
-Ralph
On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 07:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ralph,
>
> I did some more searching and found this one. Is it
> similar to the one you saw? A Harley conversion done
> in 1978? This one-of-a-kind is stored at the Wheels
> Through Time Museum. Photos were taken during the
> BuRP Rally 2006.
>
> Photo of Plans
> http://motorcycles.about.com/od/rallies/ig/BuRP-2006-Rally-Pics/bp0644.htm
> Photo of rear
> http://motorcycles.about.com/od/rallies/ig/BuRP-2006-Rally-Pics/bp0645.htm
> Photo of Front
> http://motorcycles.about.com/od/rallies/ig/BuRP-2006-Rally-Pics/bp0646.htm
>
> --- Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Definately not it!
> >
> > The Harley was orange, for starters. I got the
> > impression that it was a one-off as an experiment
> > that got out into the public.
> >
> > -Ralph
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
> > lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > No, Ralph knew that I wasnt talking about Karl
> > Vogel's
> > > Electracruiser and before it comes up Myers
> > motors'
> > > cycle. But, thank you.
> > >
> > > --- Mike Willmon wrote:
> > >
> > > > isn't it this one?
> > > > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/392
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ralph wrote:
> > > No- What I found interesting was that Harley had
> > > actually built such a
> > > prototype! I'm not a Harley fan so despite it
> > being
> > > electric, I gave it
> > > only passing interest.
> > >
> > > -Ralph
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:58:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > > lyle sloan wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do you have anymore info on this bike and
> > perhaps a
> > > > photo?
> > > >
> > > > Lyle
> > > > --- Ralph wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Harley actually built an electric cycle back
> > in
> > > the
> > > > > 70s. I saw one (the same one) at the
> > Farmington,
> > > MN
> > > > > antique motorbike rally and then later the
> > same
> > > year
> > > > > at the Davenport antique rally- about 8 years
> > ago
> > > or
> > > > > so.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ralph
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of which, shouldnt we all be voting for killacycle at dragtimes.com?!
It still has a chance to be vehicle of the month!
http://www.dragtimes.com/Dragster-Motorcycle-Timeslip-7621.html
I just cast my vote. Now if we can just get the word Electric
in the title of Bill's bike. It currently reads "Dragster Motorcycle Killacycle"
and it would be nice if everyone knew at a glance that it was electric,
especially with the blistering 152 mph speed posted, faster than just about
all of the gassers. Hmmm, I see a Mustang coming up the list that does
159 in the 1/8th mile and 204 in the quarter! We should be able to beat
that with a capictor-stiffened pack of lithiums.
So there's no more EVs left after Bill's (that I'm aware of), who
wants to be next? How about Father Time......
I don't know if it's how I have my monitor set or what, but the
confirmation numbers are extremely easy to read. I keep my Contrast
cranked up all the way, then adjust the Brightness until I just barely
achieve a velvety black on the color palette.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does the >car< need to be a new part as well?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Build EV For Someone Else
Answers next to questions..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 4:17 PM
Subject: Build EV For Someone Else
> If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
> requirements:
>
> No future upgrades. This can't be promised but using the best Zilla
controller & the Best Rudman charger with regulators would be a start. I'd
use a 240v Iota dc/dc or a Vicor product. At least a 9" ADC.
>
> All new parts
>
> Total weight, 2500 lbs This will be hard. One of the proven cars that
can do this is the Datxun 1200. NOt many left. Another candidate would be
a VW Bug or Kit car. Festiva. Aspire. Fiesta. Justy. Starlet. Metro.
Maybe a VW Rabbit. Fiat 600. Fiat 850. Many of these might work with the
back seat taken out if you don't mind losing the back seat. Can't speak for
the drivelines on these little cars. The Datsun will take it. Not sure of
the others.
>
> 0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
>
> 60 mile range
>
> Using Lead Acid Batteries Use just enough batteries to get your range.
It will be in the 240 to 300 volt range using Optimas or Exides..
>
>
>
> What components and how many would you use? Listed above. Lawrnece
Rhodes.....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to take this opportunity to welcome NEDRA's new Tech Director
whom I know many of you already know. His name is Ken Koch. He owns and
operates KTA Services in Upland California which has been in business 22
years now. Ken brings with him an exceptional knowledge of EVs in all forms
from street to racing. His extensive engineering background will be an asset
to this position. Ken has a reputation in the industry for his honesty and
level headedness. He is one of the old timers, one of the pioneers. He was
good friends with Ed Rannberg, another EV legend. He will bring much talent
with him to the NEDRA board. We are honored that he has chosen to volunteer
his valuable time to help NEDRA move forward.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA Marketing Director
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--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Oct 2006 at 20:54, Chuck Hursch wrote:
> revive a set of batteries ...
The EV old-timers used to dump out the electrolyte (inverting the
batteries), flush them with clear water to remove some of the shed lead
sulfate crystals and other nasty stuff, and refill with fresh 1.280SG
electrolyte. This would get a little more mileage out of them.
There are some big problems with this scheme, though.
One is that you now have more electrolyte capacity than active material in
the grids. So even on relatively shallow cycles, the grids are over-
discharged, and they degrade that much faster.
The other is that the stuff you drain from that battery is toxic waste. So
is the rinse water. You can neutralize the acid, but it still contains lead
compounds. You can't just dump it on the ground or down the drain; it's not
only unethical, it's illegal in most places. You have to find a household
hazardous waste disposal site, or a battery recycler, to dispose of it for
you. You may have to pay to get rid of it.
I know new batteries are pricey right now, but I still think that if your
batteries are so far gone that you're contemplating something like this,
you're really better off to send them to the guys who can recycle them
properly, and get nice new ones with >real< capacity.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Oct 2006 at 6:30, Bob Bath wrote:
> However Nawaz has indicated that because of the
> amount of antimony used in these batteries, it is not
> necessary to lower the voltage as these batteries age.
I have a great deal of respect for Nawaz, but that is just not what I have
found to be the case with any 6v or 8v lead batteries, including USBMC
batteries (which I use and like). Maybe it falls less than it would in some
batteries, but as the number of cycles gets over 150 or so, the finish
voltage does inexorably fall. You can charge and charge until you run the
electric meter around past zero, and you'll still never get them to the
voltage they achieved when they were new (adjusting for temperature).
They're kinda like people that way. ;-)
Using an adjustable manual charger (or better yet a programmable uP
controlled one), charge your batteries at a low rate (C/80 or so) until the
specific gravity stops rising in every cell (equalize). Now raise the
current to C/40. Measure the voltage. That's your highest possible finish
voltage at the current temperature. You won't normally achieve this voltage
unless you equalize on every cycle (not recommended) so knock 1-2% off that
for routine charging.
That's my recommendation, but if Lee Hart says differently, listen to him.
He knows a lot more than I do about this stuff. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote "I'm starting to get a rather
interesting smell which I'm fairly certain is from my
motor. It happens between 30-40, and generally on an
uphill stretch."
Do you have a motor current gage? I don't see one in
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/542.html, but if you
do, have you been keeping your motor current below its
5 minute and one hour ratings? I don't see 8" specs
for 144V like you are running, but since the 96V and
120V specs are similar between 8" and 9", you should
probably be staying below 320A over 5 minutes and
below 185A over 1 hour, per the 9" 144V specs.
I find that even when I keep the RPMs high, it's tough
to climb long, steep, or high speed hills within these
parameters. I also find that motor current is usually
much higher than 144V battery current, which I assume
your E-meter gives you, although the two do get closer
at higher RPMs.
Chris Jones
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/733
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I proposed Dennis' suggestion to the Board of Directors of NEDRA and we
voted on the two time slip requirement. It was passed with 100% agreement
including a vote of support from our newest member Ken Koch. The rule is
posted here: http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA Marketing Director
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Nedra Record Setting
Dennis, I agree with you on this issue for the most part and I am sure
this will come about at some point. The original rule that stands at the
moment is that at a sanctioned NEDRA event we allowed a record with only
one pass. Realizing that with NEDRA observers they would be able to tell
if the car was going 314 mph or not. It also had to do with people
traveling great distances for an event and when you are pushing the limits
of your vehicle sometimes things may break and even though you got in one
good run it wouldn't count if it was that rule. The actual reason was to
encourage people to come to events. Now that we have several events around
the country it may be time to revisit this issue. Even though you are not
a NEDRA member I will bring the issue before the board.
Disclaimer: This is only my opinion and not that of the entire board at
NEDRA
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Nedra Record Setting
I would like again to suggest to nedra that any record runs be backed up
the
same day with a like run as per nhra rules.Any 1 timeslip can be a
mistake as
I have a timeslip with a 314mph #...... Dennis
Berube
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--- Begin Message ---
At 10:26 PM 10/1/2006, you wrote:
What are the function of battery boxes/racks other than holding the
batteries in place? Why would a box cost over $2000? (box and rack set for
914 at electroauto.com)
I've seen sites mention making these from steel, aluminum, even wood. Why
not plastic or fiberglass to reduce weight?
This is not A box, it is a SET of boxes and racks. The front trunk
holds 6 batteries in a T-shaped box, the gas tank area holds 3 in a
rectangular box, the engine compartment holds 9 in a two-part
T-shaped box. (While it FITS in the engine compartment, it is not
possible to get it INTO the engine compartment in one piece, so it is
made in two pieces that bolt together in place.) And there are 2
single battery "saddle bag" boxes in the rear trunk. The boxes are
made of welded polypropylene. They are supported by welded steel
rack and holddowns, which have been epoxy powdercoated. The set
includes ventilation fans.
Welding costs of both plastic and steel are determined more by the
complexity of the shape than the size. Since two of these boxes are
complex shapes, the welding costs are higher than for a plain square box.
These are units we have productionized by paying the welders to
create jigs for easier and consistent reproducibility. Getting a
single set made like this without the jigs would cost much more.
Certainly, cheaper boxes can be built from cheaper materials such as
plywood, and it is of course cheaper to build your own (if you have
the skills and/or equipment) since you don't charge yourself for your
own time.
Containing the batteries is only part of the design equation. They
also need to be secured to the chassis in such a way as to KEEP them
in place in case of a collision.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for the explanation Shari.
I certainly wasn't suggesting that these boxes weren't quality construction.
I was just wondering what the requirements for boxes were. I am trying to
cut down the costs on my project and just wondering what I might be able to
do on my own to help with that, while not sacrificing the things that are
most important to me as I'm sure is with anyone, range and performance.
I'd rather dump a ton of money into the motor, controller and batteries, if
I can cut back costs by fabricating some of the other stuff myself.
At a full 1/4 price of the whole conversion kit, the price of that box set,
no matter how it's made seems steep to me.
Thanks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Electro Automotive
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
At 10:26 PM 10/1/2006, you wrote:
>What are the function of battery boxes/racks other than holding the
>batteries in place? Why would a box cost over $2000? (box and rack set for
>914 at electroauto.com)
>
>I've seen sites mention making these from steel, aluminum, even wood. Why
>not plastic or fiberglass to reduce weight?
This is not A box, it is a SET of boxes and racks. The front trunk
holds 6 batteries in a T-shaped box, the gas tank area holds 3 in a
rectangular box, the engine compartment holds 9 in a two-part
T-shaped box. (While it FITS in the engine compartment, it is not
possible to get it INTO the engine compartment in one piece, so it is
made in two pieces that bolt together in place.) And there are 2
single battery "saddle bag" boxes in the rear trunk. The boxes are
made of welded polypropylene. They are supported by welded steel
rack and holddowns, which have been epoxy powdercoated. The set
includes ventilation fans.
Welding costs of both plastic and steel are determined more by the
complexity of the shape than the size. Since two of these boxes are
complex shapes, the welding costs are higher than for a plain square box.
These are units we have productionized by paying the welders to
create jigs for easier and consistent reproducibility. Getting a
single set made like this without the jigs would cost much more.
Certainly, cheaper boxes can be built from cheaper materials such as
plywood, and it is of course cheaper to build your own (if you have
the skills and/or equipment) since you don't charge yourself for your
own time.
Containing the batteries is only part of the design equation. They
also need to be secured to the chassis in such a way as to KEEP them
in place in case of a collision.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is terrific news. Ken will do a very good job. He is a straight
shooter and well-respected by the EV community.
Bill Dube'
At 01:59 PM 10/2/2006, you wrote:
I would like to take this opportunity to welcome NEDRA's new Tech
Director whom I know many of you already know. His name is Ken Koch.
He owns and operates KTA Services in Upland California which has
been in business 22 years now. Ken brings with him an exceptional
knowledge of EVs in all forms from street to racing. His extensive
engineering background will be an asset to this position. Ken has a
reputation in the industry for his honesty and level headedness. He
is one of the old timers, one of the pioneers. He was good friends
with Ed Rannberg, another EV legend. He will bring much talent with
him to the NEDRA board. We are honored that he has chosen to
volunteer his valuable time to help NEDRA move forward.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA Marketing Director
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would suggest consideration of a car to convert that doesn't require
engineered battery boxes might put you ahead on costs. For example, a
car that has a big trunk. And might not also need suspension upgrades.
These little cars that are always recommended have hidden costs..
Jack
Michael Trefry wrote:
Thank you for the explanation Shari.
I certainly wasn't suggesting that these boxes weren't quality construction.
I was just wondering what the requirements for boxes were. I am trying to
cut down the costs on my project and just wondering what I might be able to
do on my own to help with that, while not sacrificing the things that are
most important to me as I'm sure is with anyone, range and performance.
I'd rather dump a ton of money into the motor, controller and batteries, if
I can cut back costs by fabricating some of the other stuff myself.
At a full 1/4 price of the whole conversion kit, the price of that box set,
no matter how it's made seems steep to me.
Thanks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Electro Automotive
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
At 10:26 PM 10/1/2006, you wrote:
What are the function of battery boxes/racks other than holding the
batteries in place? Why would a box cost over $2000? (box and rack set for
914 at electroauto.com)
I've seen sites mention making these from steel, aluminum, even wood. Why
not plastic or fiberglass to reduce weight?
This is not A box, it is a SET of boxes and racks. The front trunk
holds 6 batteries in a T-shaped box, the gas tank area holds 3 in a
rectangular box, the engine compartment holds 9 in a two-part
T-shaped box. (While it FITS in the engine compartment, it is not
possible to get it INTO the engine compartment in one piece, so it is
made in two pieces that bolt together in place.) And there are 2
single battery "saddle bag" boxes in the rear trunk. The boxes are
made of welded polypropylene. They are supported by welded steel
rack and holddowns, which have been epoxy powdercoated. The set
includes ventilation fans.
Welding costs of both plastic and steel are determined more by the
complexity of the shape than the size. Since two of these boxes are
complex shapes, the welding costs are higher than for a plain square box.
These are units we have productionized by paying the welders to
create jigs for easier and consistent reproducibility. Getting a
single set made like this without the jigs would cost much more.
Certainly, cheaper boxes can be built from cheaper materials such as
plywood, and it is of course cheaper to build your own (if you have
the skills and/or equipment) since you don't charge yourself for your
own time.
Containing the batteries is only part of the design equation. They
also need to be secured to the chassis in such a way as to KEEP them
in place in case of a collision.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fresh info about Nanosafe in their website (pictures, video, battery
technology explained):
http://www.altairnano.com/
RENO, NV -- SEPTEMBER 28,2006 -- Altair Nanotechnologies Inc.
(NASDAQ: ALTI) with their electric vehicle partners, Boshart
Engineering and Phoenix Motorcars, successfully launched a full
size, all-electric SUV at the California Air Resources Board Zero
Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Technology Symposium, in Sacramento,
California this week. The freeway ready, all-electric SUV was powered
entirely by Altairnano NanoSafe batteries.
Did anyone attend this symposium?
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Too late :)
I already got the "little" car, and what a beauty she is!
Nevertheless, if I have to go the route of buying pre-engineered boxes I
will, I was just curious as to what was involved in making them and if the
costs were justified. It sounds like the boxes they make are made very well,
I'm not disparaging that at all.
Just hoping I can cut some corners and not turn this into a $20,000 project.
Just to reiterate, I'd rather put the money into things I KNOW I can't do,
like build a motor or a controller, or batteries or whatever other
electronics will be needed for this conversion.
I'm not completely inept, so I think I might be able to build the boxes
myself and save $1000 - $1500.
On the other hand I could spend hundreds on materials and hours on effort
and find that what I've built is sorely inefficient. But hey, that's what
experience is all about, right?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 4:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
I would suggest consideration of a car to convert that doesn't require
engineered battery boxes might put you ahead on costs. For example, a
car that has a big trunk. And might not also need suspension upgrades.
These little cars that are always recommended have hidden costs..
Jack
Michael Trefry wrote:
> Thank you for the explanation Shari.
>
> I certainly wasn't suggesting that these boxes weren't quality
construction.
>
>
> I was just wondering what the requirements for boxes were. I am trying to
> cut down the costs on my project and just wondering what I might be able
to
> do on my own to help with that, while not sacrificing the things that are
> most important to me as I'm sure is with anyone, range and performance.
>
> I'd rather dump a ton of money into the motor, controller and batteries,
if
> I can cut back costs by fabricating some of the other stuff myself.
>
> At a full 1/4 price of the whole conversion kit, the price of that box
set,
> no matter how it's made seems steep to me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Electro Automotive
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:03 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Battery boxes
>
> At 10:26 PM 10/1/2006, you wrote:
>
>>What are the function of battery boxes/racks other than holding the
>>batteries in place? Why would a box cost over $2000? (box and rack set for
>>914 at electroauto.com)
>>
>>I've seen sites mention making these from steel, aluminum, even wood. Why
>>not plastic or fiberglass to reduce weight?
>
>
> This is not A box, it is a SET of boxes and racks. The front trunk
> holds 6 batteries in a T-shaped box, the gas tank area holds 3 in a
> rectangular box, the engine compartment holds 9 in a two-part
> T-shaped box. (While it FITS in the engine compartment, it is not
> possible to get it INTO the engine compartment in one piece, so it is
> made in two pieces that bolt together in place.) And there are 2
> single battery "saddle bag" boxes in the rear trunk. The boxes are
> made of welded polypropylene. They are supported by welded steel
> rack and holddowns, which have been epoxy powdercoated. The set
> includes ventilation fans.
>
> Welding costs of both plastic and steel are determined more by the
> complexity of the shape than the size. Since two of these boxes are
> complex shapes, the welding costs are higher than for a plain square box.
>
> These are units we have productionized by paying the welders to
> create jigs for easier and consistent reproducibility. Getting a
> single set made like this without the jigs would cost much more.
>
> Certainly, cheaper boxes can be built from cheaper materials such as
> plywood, and it is of course cheaper to build your own (if you have
> the skills and/or equipment) since you don't charge yourself for your
> own time.
>
> Containing the batteries is only part of the design equation. They
> also need to be secured to the chassis in such a way as to KEEP them
> in place in case of a collision.
>
> Shari Prange
>
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:00:00 -0700
I would suggest consideration of a car to convert that doesn't require
engineered battery boxes might put you ahead on costs. For example, a car
that has a big trunk. And might not also need suspension upgrades.
These little cars that are always recommended have hidden costs..
Jack
That may be true, but a larger car will require more batteries for the same
range and performance as a smaller car. And, that expense will be greater
for every new pack, not just once.
A larger car may also require a larger motor, controller, and DC-DC
converter, as well as using more electricity (admittedly a small part of the
cost of ev ownership) per mile. And, that additional electric grid power
will probably result in more greenhouse gasses and other pollutants.
If the purpose of converting a car to electric power is to reduce the ill
effects of driving on the world ( and, I understand that there are other
reason, also) then a smaller car would help serve that purpose.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Can anyone recommend a good meter for EV building. I don't mind
spending a little more for useful features and would like some
guidance on brands and where to buy. Perhaps a simple good quality
meter is all that is needed? What about measuring pulse output, etc?
Thanks,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really like my push reel mower and someone right down the way is selling a
tow behind 81" reel mower.
I right now am using an etek powered craftsman 42" with a dying hydromatic
tranny. My father gave it to me because after 20 minutes or so it would
overheat and roll backwards when he was mowing his hilly one acre lawn.
The new tow rig would just have somewhere for me to sit with just the
batteries, motor and controller.
I have read online that you can tow the reel mower behind an ATV with ease but
I'm wondering if it something that an Etek could pull easily enough if I could
gear it down?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MARK DUTKO wrote:
Can anyone recommend a good meter for EV building. I don't mind
spending a little more for useful features and would like some
guidance on brands and where to buy. Perhaps a simple good quality
meter is all that is needed? What about measuring pulse output, etc?
There are lots of cheap meters and they are all about the same. Your
local Radio Shack will have plenty of them and they are generally good
enough for most users. Just make sure you are getting AC/DC volts, and
resistance. A continuity test with audible alert is also nice. Most of
the features are unnecessary or rarely useful. (Transitor/Diode
testers, frequency counters that only count square waves, value hold,
etc). Avoid the $20 and under Harbor Frieght or Home Depot meters, they
tend to have accuracy issues.
If you are willing to spend a bit more, find a Fluke. Nearly any of
their meters will have the features you need. Excellent durability, and
high accuracy are part of the package. I have an older Model 79 that
has never failed me yet, and most of the 80 series are also excellent.
Price will be $100-$200US, but I think its worth it. You can find older
units on EBay for reasonable prices.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, what the experts here say is that a heavier car doesn't have less
range, just less acceleration.
And the size of the glider means little compared to the weight of the
batteries. If you want to propel less weight around the planet, use
NiMH batteries instead of lead.
Jack
Phil Marino wrote:
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery boxes
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:00:00 -0700
I would suggest consideration of a car to convert that doesn't require
engineered battery boxes might put you ahead on costs. For example, a
car that has a big trunk. And might not also need suspension upgrades.
These little cars that are always recommended have hidden costs..
Jack
That may be true, but a larger car will require more batteries for the
same range and performance as a smaller car. And, that expense will be
greater for every new pack, not just once.
A larger car may also require a larger motor, controller, and DC-DC
converter, as well as using more electricity (admittedly a small part of
the cost of ev ownership) per mile. And, that additional electric grid
power will probably result in more greenhouse gasses and other pollutants.
If the purpose of converting a car to electric power is to reduce the
ill effects of driving on the world ( and, I understand that there are
other reason, also) then a smaller car would help serve that purpose.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day
trial!
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael,
As Mr Clunn said everything has a price. However, as the proud owner
of the world's quickest motor controller from D. Berubi's legendary 8.8
sec dragster I think of Otmar as a hippie flavored Smokey Yunick or Big
Daddy Don. I still think contactors are faster but wouldn't part with
my world record 1.8K Zilla for $100K. Not a bad choice for a light
weight EV is the 120 volt zapi 800 amp with regen for series motors.
The regen is real cool on my street car and the controller is
relatively cheap. Not Zilla performance but enough to run 70+ on the
freeway and still put you back in the seat at the redlight.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Trefry"
So I've decided to go DC to allow the maximum flexibility of tweaking
and
tuning.
I just visited the Zilla web-site, and it looks like the controllers
are
backordered over 6 months.
It kind of like the EV1 we got a taste of something so good , but now
the well seem dry .
What are the chances of finding a used Zilla, and would I want to?
I'd like to see one on e bay , just to see how much it goes for . As
they say everything has a price ,
I'd sell my used 1k 156v used zilla for 4k , ya I wouldn't buy a use
one for that , maybe 2500 , . My 2 k , $10,000 , ,, maybe ,
Its like oil , when you can't get it , the price goes to the moon .
Thing is , hi prices like this would stop allot of people from getting
into Ev's ,
Are there any other controllers AS good for the EV hobbyist?
not that I've seen , maybe if I paint a curtis green it will work
better, got to do something .
Steve Clunn
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