EV Digest 5955
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: EV digest 5953
by "Hajda Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) question to victor
by "Lawrie, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) re: range (was battery boxes)
by Jeremy Rutman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Steve Clunn, motor on your website
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Leaving Lee reg batteries on long charge
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Glider in Fresno, CA - '93 Range Rover
by "Harry Houck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) ebay 270034464771
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV Podcasting
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Freedom EV progress
by "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Weight and range
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Weight and range
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A few more things about the Zapi H2 and H3's. The H2 is rather sealed,
I believe an Ip 65. The H3 is wide open, (IP 40) and needs to be
sealed up or put in a box. The H3 has a huge heat sink and I have
never had an overheat concern.
On almost all of my units I use GE contactors. There are many others
available. They are just my personal choice. They are utilized by the
Zapi for fwd, rev, and regen. Get used to hearing alot of clicking in
stop and go situations. The fwd pulls in as you accel, then the regen
pulls in when you brake, then when there is no more regen to be
accomlished they both drop out, then the whole series repeats at the
next stop light.
The series motor choice is sort of like a big pushrod V8. It is not
seemless and silent like a 4QPM motor system or even an AC or Sepex.
It does gives you alot of bang (torque) for the buck. Decent sized
series motors can be had almost anywhere. The 13" motor that the
Electropolitan uses was a freebie test unit from Prestolite with a bad
bearing and splined output.
In looking back through my Zapi folder I have had more than one H2 600
amp unit that has needed to be repaired or replaced, but I have over
100 in use in any one day. Most had a blown control fuse track, a few
had a blown regen diode. Some of these had seen ALOT of use and heat.
Ask Chris Murphy at Zapi about their warranty if you have concerns
about reliability. He will give you the straight scoop. It seems
others here haven't had the same great results that I have had and I
wouldn't want to steer you toward something that is going to give you
fits.
Shawn Lawless
PS: I am not a Zapi dealer or service center just a satisfied customer.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 8:09 PM
Subject: RE: Zilla controls backordered?
Thanks!
Anything else I should know? Any particular suggestions on motors to go
with
this, considering the regen?
BTW, I REALLY appreciate this list and everyone on it. I've learned a
ton in
just the last few days.
All of you are really very helpful!
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
FYI,
Part # for 800 amp - 120 volt H3 with regen is # FH9045.
Price is $1500.
Call Zapi directly at 919-789-4588. Ask for national sales manager
Chris Murphy.
Tell him Lawless posted this price on the EV list.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 7:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zilla controls backordered?
Well the regen certainly sounds attractive, especially considering the
braking assistance it will give. The 914 has manual brakes :(
I'll have to look into this.
Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
The Zapi has at least 2 cutback speeds for "valet" and definitely has
regen. If you fit a potentiometer to your brake pedal you can program
variable regen level based on pedal position. At full tilt it sure
puts the brakes on AND makes the battery meter shine full.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: Zilla controls backordered?
But wait,
I thought DC motors couldn't do regen without an external generator?
Steve Lacy was explaining the Zilla's valet mode to me, does the Zapi
support
anything like that?
I'd really like to regulate the current drawn during regular driving
(to extend
range), but be able to flip a switch to allow full power when I want to
have
some fun.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
Michael,
As Mr Clunn said everything has a price. However, as the proud owner
of the world's quickest motor controller from D. Berubi's legendary 8.8
sec dragster I think of Otmar as a hippie flavored Smokey Yunick or Big
Daddy Don. I still think contactors are faster but wouldn't part with
my world record 1.8K Zilla for $100K. Not a bad choice for a light
weight EV is the 120 volt zapi 800 amp with regen for series motors.
The regen is real cool on my street car and the controller is
relatively cheap. Not Zilla performance but enough to run 70+ on the
freeway and still put you back in the seat at the redlight.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Trefry"
So I've decided to go DC to allow the maximum flexibility of tweaking
and
tuning.
I just visited the Zilla web-site, and it looks like the controllers
are
backordered over 6 months.
It kind of like the EV1 we got a taste of something so good , but now
the well seem dry .
What are the chances of finding a used Zilla, and would I want to?
I'd like to see one on e bay , just to see how much it goes for . As
they say everything has a price ,
I'd sell my used 1k 156v used zilla for 4k , ya I wouldn't buy a use
one for that , maybe 2500 , . My 2 k , $10,000 , ,, maybe ,
Its like oil , when you can't get it , the price goes to the moon .
Thing is , hi prices like this would stop allot of people from getting
into Ev's ,
Are there any other controllers AS good for the EV hobbyist?
not that I've seen , maybe if I paint a curtis green it will work
better, got to do something .
Steve Clunn
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How can I un-subscribe to this list?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: EV digest 5953
EV Digest 5953
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hot, stinky motor. What does it mean?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Zapi controllers, usable regen?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Battery boxes
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery boxes
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Production EV, was RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Importing Kit Cars & Curtis' question
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Battery boxes
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery boxes
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Battery boxes
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Dragtimes
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery boxes ( not vehicle weight vs range)
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) article: Zero tolerance
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Zapi controllers, usable regen?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: article: Zero tolerance
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) article: The =?windows-1252?Q?world=92s_first_commercially-a?=
=?windows-1252?Q?vailable_electric-solar_hybrid=2C_and_a_sport?=
=?windows-1252?Q?y_one_at_that?=
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) article: The first energy-autonomous vehicle
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery boxes
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery boxes
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Zilla controls backordered?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/402 - Release Date: 7/27/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Lacy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla controls backordered?
> On Mon, October 2, 2006 3:36 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > As Mr Clunn said everything has a price.
>
> I'd like to hear from Otmar what he thinks this price is. I'd be glad to
> pay a 50% premium on my current order to get it "soon-ish" versus "maybe
> never".
>
> I know this has been gone over before, and I don't want to put excess
> pressure on Otmar, but it seems like demand is far outstripping supply,
> and that calls for higher prices, right? Do others agree?
No, I do NOT agree with that argument! What Ot meeds to do is hire more
people in order to turn units out faster without affecting quality, of
course. A fair price is a fair price, not what the market is willing to pay!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a quick one.. I tried to contact you off list regarding motor
specs, your [EMAIL PROTECTED] address, but ive had no reply..did it get
through?
Thanks..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:10 03/10/2006, you wrote:
thanks for the clarification, what would the reduction in range
for a car that is 3,000 lbs vs 2,700 ?
Jack
empirical range formula gives 2.05 miles/kWh @3000lbs vs 2.18
miles/kWh @ 2700lbs.
Usual caveat - there is great variation in miles/kWh due to other
factors such as aero, braking, driving style/conditions etc.e.g.
there are 2700lb cars with as much as 6.3 miles/kWh.
However the ratio 2.05 vs 2.18 or 6.5% range improvement for 10%
weight improvement 3000lbs vs 2700 lbs will surely remain nearly
fixed (all other factors being equal) even though the actual numbers
2.05 or 2.18 may be way off.
see http://www.saymoo.org/drupal/?q=node/42
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't
Haifa 32000
Israel
972 4 8293669
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water,
I will not use any part of the Fiero. In the past 6 months or so they have
started to produce a custom cassis, which I will use. Take and minus $5,000
for engine then add the $20,000. With $5,000 for a paint job, $3,400 for
wheels and $1,200 for X speed rated tires, I am having a hard time keeping
it under $80,000 which is my goal. If I can find a way to automate the
building of the custom cassis, maybe I can cut another $5,000 off the top.
Curtis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Build EV For Someone Else
That should address the class just under the Tesla,
I see that the bare kits go for $12k - $13k and a
Fiero chassis between $2500 and $4500, pre-stretched.
The completed replica's are sold for $50 to $70 according
the "dealer opportunity" page, so if you throw in
another $20,000 for electric drive and batteries then
you should be able to make a very decent car, with
the same performance as the gasser but silent and clean.
You can learn a lot from what Tesla and others have done
and follow their lead while avoiding their mistakes.
With the upswing in EV start-ups, you may be riding the
waves of publicity that they make.
I see the Phantom 6.0 is built at a dealer (Extreme Exotics)
here in San Jose. Hmmmm.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Curtis Muhlestein
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Build EV For Someone Else
Cor van de Water,
I have someone for the CFO position. I am also looking for a Marketing
Director.
Jerry Dycus,
The design that we have settled on is:
http://www.ifgonline.com/Phantom6/
David Dymaxion,
Thanks for your comments and support.
Once we complete the team then we will be finishing the business plan that
we have started. We feel it is important to build the team first and then
with the team in place, continue to develop the business.
There are many reasons why I wanted to keep this quite for as long as I
could, but after asking various direct question and really no direct
answers, I thought that it was time to share my idea with you.
Because of the design that we have selected, we want it to perform
comparably, using lead acid batteries. We are looking forward to all the
new developments such as
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/brown_universit.html .
Curtis Muhlestein
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Build EV For Someone Else
> Maybe the following will give you moiré information to what I am
trying to
> do. I have already contacted the EV'ers here in Northern Utah.
>
> For more than 26 years I have wanted to build an EV. I have been
going to
> GreenCarCogress.com and other web sites everyday for the past 18
months. It
> is very clear to me that with the current advancements in technology
that it
> is time to build.
>
> I own the domain, DriveElectric.net (currently not up) and the DBA,
(doing
> business as) Drive Electric here in Utah. I am looking to put
together a
> team to build and sell EV's. If Tesla Motors, Universal Electric
Vehicle
> Inc., Mullen Motor Company and Phoenix Motorcars can do it, so can I.
>
> I have a BS in computer science and associate degree in automotive
service,
> both degrees from Weber State. I currently am working as a senior
software
> engineer, but I have also designed, drafted and built my own 2
story, 3,700
> sq. ft. home.
>
> We are looking for a COO to join our team and be a part of the start-up
> process. If you know anyone who would be interested, please have
them send
> me their resume.
>
> Curtis Muhlestein
> President & CEO
> Drive Electric
>
I glad you gave us "moiré" information and made your intentions clear.
Now you'll have more input that you care to read. What market are
you aiming for, and what kind of investment funds do you have access
to? The Tesla and X-1 cover the expensive sports car end, and the
Xebra the cheap underpowered Chinese junk section. What do you want to
sell?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve;
Do you have a parallel/serial set up?
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: steve clunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Steve Clunn, motor on your website
Hi Dale the 11 inch motor has enough toqure ( 2 times as much as a 9" )
that it can be hooked up straight to the rear end , it's 1 to 1 and
reverse
is done with a reversing contactor . This is a clip of my truck with
the
11 in 4th gear. http://www.grassrootsev.com/mits.htm
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:50 AM
Subject: Steve Clunn, motor on your website
> Hi Steve,
> I see an 11 inch motor with a yoke for a universal joint. Is this a 1
to
> 1 set
> up or a built-in gear reduction? Does it have a method for reverse?
>
> Dale Curren
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Curtis and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Build EV For Someone Else
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 22:20:24 -0600
>Cor van de Water,
>I have someone for the CFO position. I am also looking for
>a Marketing Director.
>
>Jerry Dycus,
>The design that we have settled on is:
>http://www.ifgonline.com/Phantom6/
It looks like an interesting design. It's a good
price if it comes complete except drive/wheels. Or do you
have to completely assmble it?
By having them do as much of the work for you as
possible, it can cut your overhead, labor, shop size costs a
lot. Eventually all I plan to do is call up the construction
people to build another one to an order, not owning anything
but a showroom, office.
I'd also have them change it some like removing the
wing and changing some other body parts, ect so you have a
unique vehicle to you, not just a stock kitcar conversion.
The EV drive of a 1k or 2k Zilla, max out on
Orbitals the highest voltage the Zilla will do, 2- 8" ADC's
should get you where you need to be acceleration, range wise
with some to spare.
One problem you will have is good racing/drag tires
are not good EV range tires so you will have to research
that to find the best compromise.
You shouldn't have much problem building it for
$25k and selling it for twice that. I've been advocating
others to do it for yrs!!
My next EV after the Freedom EV will probably be
one based on older style Euro coupes like the 64-65 Ferrari
or Cobra Daytona but with a modern all monocoque composite
bodies and EV drives as above.
Turned the Freedom EV unibody upside down so to
final finish off the bottom. It's nice when 2 people can
just pick it up because it's so light.
Jerry Dycus
>
>David Dymaxion,
>Thanks for your comments and support.
>
>Once we complete the team then we will be finishing the
>business plan that we have started. We feel it is
>important to build the team first and then with the team in
>place, continue to develop the business.
>
>There are many reasons why I wanted to keep this quite for
>as long as I could, but after asking various direct
>question and really no direct answers, I thought that it
>was time to share my idea with you.
>
>Because of the design that we have selected, we want it to
>perform comparably, using lead acid batteries. We are
>looking forward to all the new developments such as
>http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/brown_universit.html
>.
>
>Curtis Muhlestein
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally got myself a chip in the Prizm's Dolphin controller that can
be easily programmed. So I went and changed some of the charge values in
the car.
I have a pair of 25 battery strings of hawkers under the car, each with
a Lee Zener reg. Now that the weather is cooler, I'd like to put the car
on a series of constant charges to float up any batteries that may have
gotten low over the summer.
Is it safe to use a charge voltage of about 364 volts constant on the
pack with the regulators in place? That's about 14.56 volts per battery.
When I set the Dolphin for this as the end-charge it pretty much sits
there at 1.3a current draw. Seems a bit high, except for the fact that
the regs will bypass about .5a-.6a each, so two strings in parallel
should be bypassing 1.0a.
Would it be ok to leave the charger running all night with this sort of
a set up? What's the max amount of overcharge I should shoot for per
charge cycle?
Thanks
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
On 10/2/06, Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So how do people usually wire up a PFC-30 so that you can't drive away
while it's charging?
Just don't... put a plunger or reed switch on the fuel door or whatever
covers over the power inlet. Using the charger or AC voltage does not
protect you if the cord is plugged in but no power is applied. (Blown
breaker or GFCI, other end of the cord pulled from outlet, etc)
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jake,
I use a lot of industrial products in my EV, that I get normally for a
wholesale electrical supplier, which we also use in are electrical work.
I am using a PFC-50 on board charger, that the AC input line is ahead of a
Magnetic AC Contactor made by Square D. The coils on this contactor are 240
VAC rating, so when I plug into the EV with a 50 amp Daniel WoodHead , the
contactor coils are also energized by the AC input which turns on the
contactor.
These AC Magnetic Contactors have gangable sections on them, that you can
add a fuse holder for the coil, interlocks, and extra power poles.
These units can also be track mounted on steel channels call DIN rails which
are use for mounting relays, contactors, circuit breakers, fuse holders and
terminal block sections.
The extra power pole I add to the contactor is a normally close position,
where the 12 volt VDC ignition control circuit for the Zilla is control by
this power pole.
When the contactor is energized or close, this power pole contact opens the
12 VDC ignition control. I also have a by pass switch circuit, which is
control by a on dash selector switch which is mark ON-OFF-AUTO .
There is also a small interlock contacts that is built into the AC magnetic
contactor that is normally open which goes to a 12 VDC LED on the dash.
One really bright big RED one.
If the AC plug is plug in and you lose AC power by a trip circuit breaker or
other, the AC magnetic contactor will open closing the normally open
interlock lighting up the warning LED.
When I unplug the AC input plug, a micro switch with a very long throw
(about 2 inches long) and/or backup switch turns off this warning LED.
I have used only the micro switch and LED for years before I added the AC
electrical interlocks.
Between the AC input plug and the AC magnetic starter, there is a panel
mounted Square D 2 pole circuit breaker that has a GFIC module built into
it.
This allows me to plug into any 50 amp 240 VAC circuit that may not be GFIC
protected.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Oshins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:08 AM
Subject: PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
> So how do people usually wire up a PFC-30 so that you can't drive away
> while it's charging?
>
>
>
> Can I use the +5V from the Regbus to trigger a relay? If so, how much
> power can I safely draw from it? Will the regs pull that line high even
> when I'm not charging?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jake Oshins
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Saw a nice '93 Land Rover Range Rover, 4 door. Looks really nice at the
curb, no visible rust or body damage. Still shiny. Placard says
"257,000 miles, air shocks, no springs (?), Needs engine work. $2,000
OBO. Phone 559-930-8828."
That's all I know about it. Can snap some pictures if you need 'em.
-Harry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Oct 2006 at 3:50, Doug Weathers wrote:
> 1) If your vehicle has 30% of its total weight in batteries, it will
> have a range of about 60 miles.
I would say this is true only under ideal conditions - a highly optimized
glider,
brand new batteries, and high ambient temperatures. Realistically,
experience shows that a car with 30% mass in lead will give you about a 40
mile range.
And that is with a typical glider. One with a bit of brake drag, too much toe,
underinflated or sticky tires, automatic transmission, poor aerodynamics,
etc. can easily knock that down to around 25-35 miles. Partly depreciated
batteries can cost you 20-50% of your range. Winter temperatures in the
northern states can easily rob you of 50% unless you have good battery
insulation or heat the batteries.
And don't forget the 80% rule - don't exceed 80% of your drop-dead range on
a daily basis if you want decent battery life.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an EV proponent, but overpromising range has hurt
the EV world terribly in the past. The somewhat uncomfortable bottom line is
that a car with 30% battery weight shouldn't be asked to give more than 15
miles of autonomy (the radius it can venture from its charger).
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
wish this controller didn't look damaged or I'd use the BO since the 11 bids
haven't hit the reserve yet...
a reserve on an "as is" auction? too scary for me :o(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Oct 2006 at 10:56, nikki wrote:
> Target audience would be EV owners, EV enthusiasts and those
> interested 'from a distance'.
That's awfully broad, don't you think? Might as well say "everyone." ;-)
EV owners and enthusiasts might be in roughly the same category, but
those on the periphery have much less knowledge and different background.
If you answer the questions that are probably in the minds of those "from a
distance," you are apt to put the EV owners to sleep.
I'd suggest you either pick a group and program for it, or split your program
into two different ones, each targeted to a different segment.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
15 miles? That's terrible!
I work from home now, but before that, 15 miles would not have even got me
to work.
No matter how much people insist that 95% of daily driving is within 5-10
miles, a car with a range of less than 50 miles on a charge is useless to
the average American. Most people can't plan their day around whether they
can make it to work, stop at the grocery store on the way home, maybe go out
to dinner or for a drink with some friends after work, all on a single
charge.
True, the overpromising of range probably has and will undoubtedly harm the
EV world. But the bottom line is that the truth about range will harm the EV
world.
Here I am, looking at websites that promise 80-100 miles (some even say 120)
for my 914 conversion, even assuming that that is exaggerated by 25% or so,
I should be able to 60-80 miles. If the reality is that I won't be able to
take this baby more than 15 miles on a daily basis, why should I bother with
the expense?
It's 12 miles into town for me. If I can't make it back without asking
somebody to plug in and leech off of their power (while waiting up to 4
hours to get an 80% charge) then it's useless. I should put my money into
fixing up the 35 year old ICE.
Please somebody tell me that this is not reality.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
On 3 Oct 2006 at 3:50, Doug Weathers wrote:
> 1) If your vehicle has 30% of its total weight in batteries, it will
> have a range of about 60 miles.
I would say this is true only under ideal conditions - a highly optimized
glider,
brand new batteries, and high ambient temperatures. Realistically,
experience shows that a car with 30% mass in lead will give you about a 40
mile range.
And that is with a typical glider. One with a bit of brake drag, too much
toe,
underinflated or sticky tires, automatic transmission, poor aerodynamics,
etc. can easily knock that down to around 25-35 miles. Partly depreciated
batteries can cost you 20-50% of your range. Winter temperatures in the
northern states can easily rob you of 50% unless you have good battery
insulation or heat the batteries.
And don't forget the 80% rule - don't exceed 80% of your drop-dead range on
a daily basis if you want decent battery life.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an EV proponent, but overpromising range has hurt
the EV world terribly in the past. The somewhat uncomfortable bottom line
is
that a car with 30% battery weight shouldn't be asked to give more than 15
miles of autonomy (the radius it can venture from its charger).
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
So are there any new pictures of the Freedom EV? I'm dying to see what
it will look like & how it's put together.
Pat
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 10/3/2006 10:17:47 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No matter how much people insist that 95% of daily driving is within 5-10
miles, a car with a range of less than 50 miles on a charge is useless to
the average American. Most people can't plan their day around whether they
can make it to work, stop at the grocery store on the way home, maybe go out
to dinner or for a drink with some friends after work, all on a single
charge.>>>>
I don't know....
A lot depends on where you live. The parts of Colorado Springs that I
frequent lie within a ten mile "universe."
My just-on-the-street EV motorcycle trike has a 35 mile range. I do own a
car as well - have put 20 miles on it in the last 12 days! If I had a "real"
EV (with protection from the weather/cold) with a 50 mile range, I could
imaging selling the car and RENTING one from one of the two car rental places
a
few blocks from my home if I had a longer trip to take. I'm considering that
plan as part of retirement budgeting (along with a photovoltaic array on the
roof!).
Matt Parkhouse
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now I'm in lust!
A couple random thoughts:
Since you can paint body panels before the car is assembled, you
should be able to paint for cheaper.
I didn't see an "x" rating on a couple tire charts I checked,
what speed is that good for? Luckily you are near the Salt Flats and
Miller Motorsports Park and can legally and safely test the limits. A
very excellent all around tire like a 186 mph BFG KDW goes for about
$110/tire -- do you really need $300 tires? Likewise I'm sure you can
get much cheaper wheels. Another humble suggestion, get a set of true
race tires (like Hoosiers at $200/each). Go to a SCCA handling
test-n-tune at Wendover (really really grippy brushed concrete), and
you can set some incredible lateral g numbers. Then buy some drag
race skinnies for the Salt Flats and pick up 10 mph. Then get a set
of drag radials for the drag strip.
--- Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I will not use any part of the Fiero. In the past 6 months or so
> they have
> started to produce a custom cassis, which I will use. Take and
> minus $5,000
> for engine then add the $20,000. With $5,000 for a paint job,
> $3,400 for
> wheels and $1,200 for X speed rated tires, I am having a hard time
> keeping
> it under $80,000 which is my goal. If I can find a way to automate
> the
> building of the custom cassis, maybe I can cut another $5,000 off
> the top.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Curtis Muhlestein
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 9:20 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Build EV For Someone Else
>
> Cor van de Water,
> I have someone for the CFO position. I am also looking for a
> Marketing
> Director.
>
> Jerry Dycus,
> The design that we have settled on is:
> http://www.ifgonline.com/Phantom6/
>
> David Dymaxion,
> Thanks for your comments and support.
>
> Once we complete the team then we will be finishing the business
> plan that
> we have started. We feel it is important to build the team first
> and then
> with the team in place, continue to develop the business.
>
> There are many reasons why I wanted to keep this quite for as long
> as I
> could, but after asking various direct question and really no
> direct
> answers, I thought that it was time to share my idea with you.
>
> Because of the design that we have selected, we want it to perform
> comparably, using lead acid batteries. We are looking forward to
> all the
> new developments such as
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/brown_universit.html .
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's nice for you. But if I lived in that dense a community, I think I'd
just buy a bicycle.
But if the "reality" of range is truly around 15 miles, then popular
statement that EVs would be useful to 95% of the population is a load of
dung.
15 miles wouldn't get me to the nearest shopping center.
Man, I wish somebody would come back and say "No, you really can get 50
miles on a charge without reducing the lifetime of your batteries".
That was really my minimum number. Without that, I've just wasted $4,600 and
many, many hours of research which has apparently lied to me about range,
and not by just a little, but by over 500%!!!
Sorry, about the rant.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Weight and range
In a message dated 10/3/2006 10:17:47 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No matter how much people insist that 95% of daily driving is within 5-10
miles, a car with a range of less than 50 miles on a charge is useless to
the average American. Most people can't plan their day around whether they
can make it to work, stop at the grocery store on the way home, maybe go
out
to dinner or for a drink with some friends after work, all on a single
charge.>>>>
I don't know....
A lot depends on where you live. The parts of Colorado Springs that I
frequent lie within a ten mile "universe."
My just-on-the-street EV motorcycle trike has a 35 mile range. I do own a
car as well - have put 20 miles on it in the last 12 days! If I had a
"real"
EV (with protection from the weather/cold) with a 50 mile range, I could
imaging selling the car and RENTING one from one of the two car rental
places a
few blocks from my home if I had a longer trip to take. I'm considering
that
plan as part of retirement budgeting (along with a photovoltaic array on
the
roof!).
Matt Parkhouse
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would have died to have 15 miles range when my lead acid pack was
down to 10 miles! Even at 10 miles I found the truck to be highly
useful for tons of errands. This was the situation for many months.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 15 miles? That's terrible!
>
> I work from home now, but before that, 15 miles would not have even
got me
> to work.
>
> No matter how much people insist that 95% of daily driving is within
5-10
> miles, a car with a range of less than 50 miles on a charge is
useless to
> the average American. Most people can't plan their day around
whether they
> can make it to work, stop at the grocery store on the way home,
maybe go out
> to dinner or for a drink with some friends after work, all on a single
> charge.
>
> True, the overpromising of range probably has and will undoubtedly
harm the
> EV world. But the bottom line is that the truth about range will
harm the EV
> world.
>
> Here I am, looking at websites that promise 80-100 miles (some even
say 120)
> for my 914 conversion, even assuming that that is exaggerated by 25%
or so,
> I should be able to 60-80 miles. If the reality is that I won't be
able to
> take this baby more than 15 miles on a daily basis, why should I
bother with
> the expense?
>
> It's 12 miles into town for me. If I can't make it back without asking
> somebody to plug in and leech off of their power (while waiting up to 4
> hours to get an 80% charge) then it's useless. I should put my money
into
> fixing up the 35 year old ICE.
>
> Please somebody tell me that this is not reality.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:53 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
>
> On 3 Oct 2006 at 3:50, Doug Weathers wrote:
>
> > 1) If your vehicle has 30% of its total weight in batteries, it will
> > have a range of about 60 miles.
>
> I would say this is true only under ideal conditions - a highly
optimized
> glider,
> brand new batteries, and high ambient temperatures. Realistically,
> experience shows that a car with 30% mass in lead will give you
about a 40
> mile range.
>
> And that is with a typical glider. One with a bit of brake drag,
too much
> toe,
> underinflated or sticky tires, automatic transmission, poor
aerodynamics,
> etc. can easily knock that down to around 25-35 miles. Partly
depreciated
> batteries can cost you 20-50% of your range. Winter temperatures in
the
> northern states can easily rob you of 50% unless you have good battery
> insulation or heat the batteries.
>
> And don't forget the 80% rule - don't exceed 80% of your drop-dead
range on
> a daily basis if you want decent battery life.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm an EV proponent, but overpromising range has
hurt
> the EV world terribly in the past. The somewhat uncomfortable
bottom line
> is
> that a car with 30% battery weight shouldn't be asked to give more
than 15
> miles of autonomy (the radius it can venture from its charger).
>
> David
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David does not mean "just 15 miles range", he means 15 miles radius - there
and back. 15 miles x 2 = 30 miles range.
There are various EV web sites for calculating your range. Do this before
proceeding with your conversion. I did it numerous times and numerous ways
and came out with 40km range to 80% DOD. The estimate worked out to be
pretty accurate.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Trefry
Sent: October 3, 2006 9:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
15 miles? That's terrible!
I work from home now, but before that, 15 miles would not have even got me
to work.
No matter how much people insist that 95% of daily driving is within 5-10
miles, a car with a range of less than 50 miles on a charge is useless to
the average American. Most people can't plan their day around whether they
can make it to work, stop at the grocery store on the way home, maybe go out
to dinner or for a drink with some friends after work, all on a single
charge.
True, the overpromising of range probably has and will undoubtedly harm the
EV world. But the bottom line is that the truth about range will harm the EV
world.
Here I am, looking at websites that promise 80-100 miles (some even say 120)
for my 914 conversion, even assuming that that is exaggerated by 25% or so,
I should be able to 60-80 miles. If the reality is that I won't be able to
take this baby more than 15 miles on a daily basis, why should I bother with
the expense?
It's 12 miles into town for me. If I can't make it back without asking
somebody to plug in and leech off of their power (while waiting up to 4
hours to get an 80% charge) then it's useless. I should put my money into
fixing up the 35 year old ICE.
Please somebody tell me that this is not reality.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Weight and range (Was: Re: Battery boxes)
On 3 Oct 2006 at 3:50, Doug Weathers wrote:
> 1) If your vehicle has 30% of its total weight in batteries, it will
> have a range of about 60 miles.
I would say this is true only under ideal conditions - a highly optimized
glider, brand new batteries, and high ambient temperatures. Realistically,
experience shows that a car with 30% mass in lead will give you about a 40
mile range.
And that is with a typical glider. One with a bit of brake drag, too much
toe, underinflated or sticky tires, automatic transmission, poor
aerodynamics, etc. can easily knock that down to around 25-35 miles. Partly
depreciated batteries can cost you 20-50% of your range. Winter
temperatures in the northern states can easily rob you of 50% unless you
have good battery insulation or heat the batteries.
And don't forget the 80% rule - don't exceed 80% of your drop-dead range on
a daily basis if you want decent battery life.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an EV proponent, but overpromising range has hurt
the EV world terribly in the past. The somewhat uncomfortable bottom line
is that a car with 30% battery weight shouldn't be asked to give more than
15 miles of autonomy (the radius it can venture from its charger).
David
--- End Message ---
