EV Digest 5988
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Saft NiCd supplier
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Best way to store AGM string?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EVDL breaks old record for number of posts per day!
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: IB9000 batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) $25,000 Performance Car?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) $25,000 Performance Car?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Optima comparison, was Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: question to victor
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
John,
A member of our group got the last 2 batches of Nicads that were auctioned by
the army, he is going to use them for his conversion and needs them all.
Check out http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/Catbod.html from time to time to see
if there are any Nicads up. In the present auction there are some flooded lead
acid which look like they were manufactured in 05.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 12:48 PM
Subject: Saft NiCd supplier
> So, is there anyone I can contact about getting some Saft flooded NiCd's?
> In this case, I specifically need pricing to replace my BB600 cells
> that were destroyed in my shop fire.
> (SG Photo doesn't seem to actually have any, even though they are
> listed on their web site.)
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But, that wasn't what you asked on your original post. IIRC, you ask
specifically how you could buy LiIon cells for less than $1 each.
From your post, I would assume that you have done enough research.
Anyhow, the Nimh solution is what we have been working on for the last
2 years. We are now in active system trials with multiple EV makers.
See www.airlabcorp.com for more details.
On 10/8/06, Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
See, these are the kinds of suggestions I was looking for.
However, I'll just sit back and wait for everybody to say it can't be done.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 4:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: $25,000 Performance Car
Being the entrepeneur that I am, I'm always interesting in creating
solutions to problems and limitations, find faster, easier, cheaper ways.
No question in my mind, batteries are Problem Number One.
I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular the
ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% dod just 12Ah,
and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
So basically using these NiMH cells, you could put in 5 times as much
battery capacity than with AGM for the same weight.
Lets make it 40 cells 36Ah and $240 ea. For 120v, that would be $2,400.
But these cells only do 90amps, which using 4 parallel would be 360amps.
So we up the voltage to 480v using 40 12v blocks. The battery pack now
costs $9,600, but we now have the ability to go very fast and very far.
Problem Number Two, we need a motor that can run on 480v and 360amps =
172Kw, do regen and braking.
That looks like a AC55, which costs $1,500. But it needs a controller
to dish out that power. Well, I can build one and sell it for $5,000.
So we now have $9,600 in batteries, $6,500 for motor and controller =
$16,100. We put it into a $4,000 1984-91 Corvette.
This leaves us $4,000 left for the other stuff, and we have our very
fast, very far electric sports car for $25,000.
I'm taking orders for all of you that say you'd buy it if you could,
and I'm not kidding one bit.
Cheers,
Jack
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I built a community site for blogging and discussions about EVs and EV
conversion projects, would anyone be interested in using it?
well, the real answer is, it depends...lol...don't get mad yet. let me
explain. this list has been around for a long time. it is important to
*not* disrupt the list in any way.
that said, i too am a software developer and like the idea of this very
much. in fact, i have been discussing an similar idea centered around
compiling the information on the list into a wiki or other such thing.
to do this in a way that others will use it, here are my thoughts.
1. the list stays exactly as it is. period. not even changing address
2. emailing the list or posting to the web is seamless.
3. the new site is simple to start, most comm. sites are too busy and
hard to use.
to get this done, i would...
use a normal package, say joomla, php-nuke, or other such open source
software. strip it down and start small and easy.
then i would use something like "fetchmail" and have it subscribe to the
list. as it receives email, it processes them into the forum. many
packages do this out-of-the-box, but there is a catch...see below.
likewise, web posts must be delivered to the list just as if they had
been sent from an email email client. this is very important! otherwise
we disrupt the list. thus "the catch."
let me give you an example. when an email is sent to the list the SMTP
packets and email envelops have metadata (usually called headers) that
allow email clients to, among other things, "thread" the the discussion.
if the website does not honor this metadata, the threading (and other
things) will be disrupted, thus the user experience for all is lessened.
my plan was scrape this metadata using procmail, and deliver it with
the web posts so that threading is maintained.
another example is that some people get digests of emails from the list.
when they reply to the list via email, it becomes *very* difficult to
map this to a forum topic on the web. this will require some clever
hacking to the site. we'll need to discuss this off-line in detail.
yet another is that some folks use complex spam agents that expect
certain things (the metadata i spoke of is one) to be present in the
email. if the website does not properly form the email, these folks
will miss emails...not good.
there is also the issue of reliability. i was planning to host such a
site on dedicated redundant servers i have available. we can use other
servers, no problem, so long as they are reliable and fast--this is a
*very* active group and growing.
we'll also need backups, multiple admins, and an hand-off procedure for
the person(s) that host and administer the site. if they "take their
ball and go home" where does that leave the rest of us?
all of these (and others) can definitely be addressed
that said, i am 100% on board. i suggest that those of us able and
willing to pitch, begin emailing off-line to form a plan. once we have
something, we should write it up and put it to the list. if it flies,
we build. if not, we try again.
micheal, should we interested parties begin emailing you? if not, folks
may email me, mike sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and we can start
building the group.
regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Well, I won't say it's impossible. But it will be *very* difficult.
>Start small. Get some of those cells, and start testing. Try building
a >small AC controller for a bike or scooter. When you get that working,
>you'll have a lot more creditable set of numbers on what will be
>possible in a bigger version.
good advice Lee. I built the controller for a R/C .5 hp motor 9v, then
did the 10hp motor, 48v controller. Now I'm working on the 120v
version. The 480v 200hp version? Not unless I see a market for them,
and so far I don't buy into the "build it and they will come" line.
I go with the "buy it and I'll build it" line right now.
We have a private lake here in Greenhaven that only allows electrics,
when the electric jetski hits the lake, I'm more of the "they will come"
strategy, since my machinest lives on the lake and wants to buy the
jetski when its done, and is convinced his neighbors will be jealous.
It's also a relatively small investment risk.
The NiMH batts can go into the jetski, but so far I've just looked at
the samples sitting on the floor, no testing yet.
Cheers,
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Jack Murray wrote:
I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular
the ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% DOD just
12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
Sounds promising. But as others have mentioned, your numbers may be a
bit off. The Optima delivers about 24ah at the C/1 rate; but that *is*
the 50% DOD point. It is about 55ah at the 20h rate, and so is about 50%
DOD when 24ah has been taken out. With a 24amp load it will fall to
about 10.5v in 1 hour; but when you remove the load, the voltage rises
back up to 12.5v, which is the 50% DOD point. Oh, and price-wise, $160
is on the high side; $120-$140 is more typical if you're buying enough
for an EV.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120. That is
1/5th the weight and even less cost! So basically using these NiMH
cells, you could put in 5 times as much battery capacity than with
AGM for the same weight. Let's make it 40 cells 36Ah and $240 ea.
For 120v, that would be $2,400.
I haven't been able to find any specs on the IB9000. Where does this
data come from? If from the manufacturer, you need to take it with a
grain of salt. They will be "up to... as good as... under ideal
conditions..." specs. Get some actual batteries, and measure what they
actually do.
these cells do 90amps, which using 4 parallel would be 360amps.
Optimas happen to be good at delivering very high currents. It is almost
certain that it would take a lot more than four of these nimh D cells to
provide the same current capabilities. The D-size nimh in the Prius and
Honda hybrids are only good for about half of this, so I'd assume 50
amps max per cell until proven otherwise. I think you would need more
like 10 IB9000 cells in parallel to match the Optima current-wise.
To get the same 12v as the Optima would require ten of these 10-cell
groups. That would be about 17.5kg, compared to 20kg for the Optima. It
would cost $6 x 100 = $600 for the cells alone. However, it would have a
90ah capacity (at the 20-hour rate?) which is pretty good. Let's say you
can get 60ah at the 1-hour rate. You have a battery that's a little
lighter (17.5kg vs 20kg), about twice the capacity (60ah vs 24ah at 1-hr
rate), but ~4x the cost ($600 vs $140).
If you don't spend any more than you would on an Optima for battery
management (under $50/battery), it's unlikely that the life of the nimh
pack will be any better than an Optima. Most nimh cells don't last more
than a few hundred cycles. The ones that do have elaborate expensive
battery management systems.
Problem Number Two, we need a motor that can run on 480v and 360amps
=172Kw, do regen and braking. That looks like an AC55, which costs
$1,500. But it needs a controller to dish out that power. Well,
I can build one and sell it for $5,000.
So we now have $9,600 in batteries, $6,500 for motor and controller
=$16,100. We put it into a $4,000 1984-91 Corvette. This leaves us
$4,000 left for the other stuff, and we have our very fast, very
far electric sports car for $25,000.
I'm taking orders for all of you that say you'd buy it if you could,
and I'm not kidding one bit.
Well, I won't say it's impossible. But it will be *very* difficult.
Start small. Get some of those cells, and start testing. Try building a
small AC controller for a bike or scooter. When you get that working,
you'll have a lot more creditable set of numbers on what will be
possible in a bigger version.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Trefry wrote:
I would gladly take the lead on this. I would gladly support this site. I
would happily host the site. (I get free hosting on a dedicated server
through a partnership with an ISP)
this sounds good to me. i too have server that we could use to
mirror/back the site
I'd just like to make sure that there is interest.
i am in. i'll email you about getting started!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is true today, but it won't be for long. For instance when Mr. Torvalds
released his little piece of open source, there was a market of one. However,
his little bit of software, the Linux kernel, has gained a little "LOL" group
of users.
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike Sandman wrote:
> In my world, when someone (or a small group) needs something, they
> build it. Then they do something amazing. They *give* it to the
> community.
In fact, this is exactly what is happening with hobby EVs, due to the
existence of resources like the EV list!
> This has been tried in the hardware world too. I use this controller
> to play around. it is completely open, schematics, software driver,
> etc... http://www.makingthings.com/makecontrollerkit/index.htm
That's not a "controller" in the EV sense; it's just a tiny piece of one
-- perhaps 1% of an EV controller.
The idea you're describing works well for certain kinds of problems.
Software is ideal, because you have 100 million identical computers
(PCs) and users. If even 1% of users want a program, that's still a
million customers. If even 1% of these are able to write such a program,
that's 10,000 developers. If even 1% of them are willing to donate their
work, they create 100 "free" programs to choose from.
But the EV market it tiny, and fragmented into many incompatible
systems. The circuits I design generally won't work on more than a few
other people's EV. Even if 10% of them are willing to contribute any
improvements, that's less than one person -- so nothing comes back to
me. Thus there's little to build on.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone is really serious about doing this I thought they would have
looked at the Valence batteries
_http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf_
(http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf)
.
They are a very expensive battery but not as expensive as buying small cheep
6000 single cells that will fail. Many of the other lithium batteries small
or large many have a cycle life that is about the same as an AGM battery.
Using the small cells has so many contact points BMS and charging issues.
I am trying to get these so more people can afford them including myself.
There are several Solectria owners who are using these batteries. Each battery
has its own BMS and as I understand it can work with some existing lead acid
chargers. So yes they are expensive but with no added expense for a BMS and
able to use a lead acid charge algorithm they are ready to use now.
Current prices
U1= $860
U24= $2030
U27 = $2550
Marc's reply if we put together a 1000 battery order?
Hi Don,
U1=$515
U24=$1220
U27= $1530
UEV = $1160
U-BMS = $100
Thanks,
Marc
So if this was posted on all EV sites the 1000 total might be within reach.
Unless someone has a better legitimate battery I am considering buying 52 of
these myself so we only have 950 to go.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 8:18:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, don't keep us in suspense, give us some specifics, like the pack
voltage/amps for a quantity of x would cost y $.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
>
> Hello Mike
>
> I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a long time about their
> batteries. They are all set up for an EV if we could get a serious group
buy going the
> prices would still be high but I believe better than anything else out
there
> for the money.
>
> Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Steve,
I did the same thing back in 2000.
Make sure that the batteries are well balance in with 0.01 volt of each
other. I balance charge my batteries about every six months which only takes
only seconds per battery with a separate smart charger.
If the batteries are very well super balance, meaning, only 0.01 volt of
each other, you could get by connecting them all in parallel. That what I
did with a Schumacher Smart Charger which has
settings for standard, deep cycle, and AGM batteries.
After it displays a 100 percent charge, than it goes into a maintaining
cycle of 13.3 volts per battery.
You could connect them all up in series if your battery charger has a
maintainer mode which should be about 173 volts, other wise you would have
to check them to see is one is either over or under charging.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Condie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 1:27 PM
Subject: Best way to store AGM string?
> I sold my Courier without batteries, so I'm taking the UB121100's out and
> will need to store them for the estimated six months until the Tropica is
> ready to roll. Here's my question: Would it be better to connect them
> in a 156V string and apply a float voltage of 175 - 179 or so or to
> connect them all in parallel and apply a float voltage of 13-5 - 13.8?
> And is it better to apply a float for only a few hours a day, or is a
> steady float (or no float at all) better?
>
> Oh - and I'm gonna store them on my garage floor. ;-)
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done
> faster.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok. You shall have it...
Wait for few days so I have time to have it logged while driving... Even
better.. why don't you fly here and YOU drive it. :)
Just last thursday I did a trip to next city averaging 54 mph and did 82
% DOD with 150 Ah li-Fe cells. It got me with some heavy accelerating
from several lights exactly 53 miles. I perhaps DID leave some parts of
my tyres back there ... eh.
car weights now about 2000 lbs. Will measure it tomorrow exactly.
Drivetrain is badly off now.. Efficiency can't be any better than 70%.
The timing is screwed.
I can get the milage better with 200 Ah Li-Co. With those cells I did
over 100 mile trips every now and then.
My argument for fast EV is purely that they have tried to sell the
"enviromental" vehicles long time. Now they could sell but most attempt
before have not succeeded.
I believe AC propulsion, Tesla and Wrightspeed has got it right.
Performance sells. And if we do burn rubber every now and then.. It's
still FAR away from ICE pollution.
How I do it dfferently. How I impress ICErs. With the burn out... I
start the thing with stand in a way that the first burnout tire
revolution takes about 3 seconds. Accelerating it slowly... It
demonstrated the torque we do love to play with..
Luckily we all are a bit different....
even kinder regards
Jukka
p.s.- I'm not selling you anything... I'm not trying to impress you...
I'm sharing my experiences on technology available today...
Mike Sandman kirjoitti:
Short video in www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
lol...why do people demonstrate green energy vehicles by filling the air
with poisonous tire smoke! it takes very little power to line-lock and
smoke tires relative to accelerating the vehicle. this kind of display
just plays into the gas-guzzling, motor-head thinking that is destroying
our planet.
if you want to impress us, show a trip record of 100 miles back-up by
GPS data with side-by-side data logged from the controller and BMS. then
you will have my attention and my money :)
kind regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
Over the last seven day period the number of posts per day have averaged
124, breaking the old record of 122 for the week of 9-18-05. No wonder I'm
not getting anything done!
BB
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Ok. You shall have it...
outstanding!
I believe AC propulsion, Tesla and Wrightspeed has got it right.
Performance sells. And if we do burn rubber every now and then.. It's
still FAR away from ICE pollution.
i definitely agree. i was commenting on the irony more then the PPM
count of pollution :)
p.s.- I'm not selling you anything... I'm not trying to impress you...
I'm sharing my experiences on technology available today...
and for that, i thank you. once it is running well and verified, i just
may take you up on your offer to come drive it. i am always looking for
an excuse to plan a vacation :)
good luck!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The statements below don't make sense to me. I have always thought NiMH
were double the amp hour capacity for the same weight of lead acid.
Lawrence Rhodes....
I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular the
> ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
> Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% dod just 12Ah,
> and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
> 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
> That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>
> So basically using these NiMH cells, you could put in 5 times as much
> battery capacity than with AGM for the same weight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So that works out to just about $1000 per KWh for 1000 orders with internal
BMS, not too bad!
From what I get, Yellowtops are about $300 per KWh, but have about 4 times
less cycle life. Valence at 80% DOD=2000. Yellowtops at 80% DOD=500?
So you'd pay $1000 for Valence and $1200 for 4 sets of Yellowtops for the
same cycle life.
That's of course if you are talking about the U1 40ah one, not their U1
24ah.
So these Valence lithiums actually come out cheaper per mile than
Yellowtops! Amazing!
Lithium is coming :-)
The huge upfront cost is a killer, though.
But we might see the "return" of lead if Firefly energy goes well.
Considering they partnered with a HUGE company(Electrolux), I think we might
have a new choice soon. They said the new batteries should be out in late
2007. Should be a great improvement over lead in cycle life and energy
density.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:34 PM
Subject: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
If anyone is really serious about doing this I thought they would have
looked at the Valence batteries
_http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf_
(http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf)
.
They are a very expensive battery but not as expensive as buying small
cheep
6000 single cells that will fail. Many of the other lithium batteries
small
or large many have a cycle life that is about the same as an AGM battery.
Using the small cells has so many contact points BMS and charging issues.
I am trying to get these so more people can afford them including myself.
There are several Solectria owners who are using these batteries. Each
battery
has its own BMS and as I understand it can work with some existing lead
acid
chargers. So yes they are expensive but with no added expense for a BMS
and
able to use a lead acid charge algorithm they are ready to use now.
Current prices
U1= $860
U24= $2030
U27 = $2550
Marc's reply if we put together a 1000 battery order?
Hi Don,
U1=$515
U24=$1220
U27= $1530
UEV = $1160
U-BMS = $100
Thanks,
Marc
So if this was posted on all EV sites the 1000 total might be within
reach.
Unless someone has a better legitimate battery I am considering buying 52
of
these myself so we only have 950 to go.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 8:18:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, don't keep us in suspense, give us some specifics, like the pack
voltage/amps for a quantity of x would cost y $.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a long time about their
batteries. They are all set up for an EV if we could get a serious group
buy going the
prices would still be high but I believe better than anything else out
there
for the money.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.batterystore.com/Intellect/IntMain.htm I found this on Yahoo.
Lawrence Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 7:36 AM
Subject: IB9000 batteries
> At 01:13 AM 10/8/2006, Jack Murray wrote:
> >I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular
> >the ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
> >Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% dod just
> >12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
> > 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
> >That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>
> And Google can't find a mention of these anywhere except on this list...
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Oops...I made an error in my math when I wrote:
> Jack's NiMH pack at 360 amps X 320 volts now makes a realistic 115
kw, a far cry from his 172 kw. 115 kw pushed through the 90% efficient
power train is just 103 hp.
The actual hp comes out to 138, not 103. Still, the proposed performance
car would be slow. The figures I gave of 0-60 in ~ 16 seconds and the
1/4 mile ET in 20-22 seconds based on 103 hp, based on 138 hp would
improve to 0-60 in ~ 14 seconds and the 1/4 mile in maybe 19-20 seconds.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Oops...I made an error in my math when I wrote:
Jack's NiMH pack at 360 amps X 320 volts now makes a realistic 115 kw,
a far cry from his 172 kw. 115 kw pushed through the 90% efficient
power train is just 103 hp.
The actual hp comes out to 138, not 103. Still, the proposed performance
car would be slow. The figures I gave of 0-60 in ~ 16 seconds and the
1/4 mile ET in 20-22 seconds based on 103 hp, based on 138 hp would
improve to 0-60 in ~ 14 seconds and the 1/4 mile in maybe 19-20 seconds.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone thought of doing a group purchase on Kokam? Even at the single cell
list cost (70Ah 3.7V is $300) a 312V pack would still be $10K **cheaper**
than Valence.
- purchasing in bulk might reduce this to being $15-20k cheaper than Valance
- they have 30% greater energy density than Valance
- with the money saved a BMS unit can be purchased from Victor or Jukka
- Kokam safety tests show just as good of a safety record as Valence
- Cliff has been putting these batteries through actual racing tests with
great results
Don Cameron
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri
Sent: October 8, 2006 3:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
So that works out to just about $1000 per KWh for 1000 orders with internal
BMS, not too bad!
>From what I get, Yellowtops are about $300 per KWh, but have about 4
>times
less cycle life. Valence at 80% DOD=2000. Yellowtops at 80% DOD=500?
So you'd pay $1000 for Valence and $1200 for 4 sets of Yellowtops for the
same cycle life.
That's of course if you are talking about the U1 40ah one, not their U1
24ah.
So these Valence lithiums actually come out cheaper per mile than
Yellowtops! Amazing!
Lithium is coming :-)
The huge upfront cost is a killer, though.
But we might see the "return" of lead if Firefly energy goes well.
Considering they partnered with a HUGE company(Electrolux), I think we might
have a new choice soon. They said the new batteries should be out in late
2007. Should be a great improvement over lead in cycle life and energy
density.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:34 PM
Subject: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
>
> If anyone is really serious about doing this I thought they would have
> looked at the Valence batteries
> _http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf_
> (http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf)
> .
>
> They are a very expensive battery but not as expensive as buying small
> cheep
> 6000 single cells that will fail. Many of the other lithium batteries
> small
> or large many have a cycle life that is about the same as an AGM battery.
> Using the small cells has so many contact points BMS and charging issues.
>
> I am trying to get these so more people can afford them including myself.
> There are several Solectria owners who are using these batteries. Each
> battery
> has its own BMS and as I understand it can work with some existing lead
> acid
> chargers. So yes they are expensive but with no added expense for a BMS
> and
> able to use a lead acid charge algorithm they are ready to use now.
>
> Current prices
> U1= $860
> U24= $2030
> U27 = $2550
>
> Marc's reply if we put together a 1000 battery order?
>
>
> Hi Don,
> U1=$515
> U24=$1220
> U27= $1530
> UEV = $1160
> U-BMS = $100
> Thanks,
> Marc
>
> So if this was posted on all EV sites the 1000 total might be within
> reach.
> Unless someone has a better legitimate battery I am considering buying 52
> of
> these myself so we only have 950 to go.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/7/2006 8:18:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Well, don't keep us in suspense, give us some specifics, like the pack
> voltage/amps for a quantity of x would cost y $.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
>
>
>>
>> Hello Mike
>>
>> I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a long time about their
>> batteries. They are all set up for an EV if we could get a serious group
> buy going the
>> prices would still be high but I believe better than anything else out
> there
>> for the money.
>>
>> Don
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think there is some confusion on the YT numbers. The Optima specs say
55aH C/20, and reserve is 25amps for 120 minutes. I was told 24Ah is
C/1 on the list from that P-fellow effect :), and so if then 50% DOD is
only 12Ah. someone dig up the past email. If the actual is 24Ah to 50%
for an hour, then the difference isn't as much. NiMH don't have the
P-effect and can run 100% DOD.
The flooded batteries may be much better than the YT's in capacity,
but my view is watering batteries is a non-starter so I don't even look
at them, someone else could comment.
Jack
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
The statements below don't make sense to me. I have always thought NiMH
were double the amp hour capacity for the same weight of lead acid.
Lawrence Rhodes....
I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular the
ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% dod just 12Ah,
and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
So basically using these NiMH cells, you could put in 5 times as much
battery capacity than with AGM for the same weight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Compare the real price
A Kokam 70ah pack at 314.5 volts is 85 X 300 is 25,500
A Valence 100 Ah pack of 312 volts is 26 X 1220 = 31,720
For the above the Valence is 22,204 or really 3296 dollars less. Yes maybe
Kokam will give a discount for a large order as well but also consider this.
Kokam life cycles 500
Valence life cycles 2000
So the Kokam is really 4 times the above cost. The Kokam at 102,000 thousand
and the Valence is still 22,204 thousand.
Then factor what is a BMS worth on each battery? Being able to use charging
for lead acid?
Even if the Kokam was 25% of the cost it is not as good a value. The price
sounds great but really consider apples to apples. I looked at the Kokam
batteries and it was disappointing when I figured out their real cost.
Don
In a message dated 10/8/2006 3:44:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Anyone thought of doing a group purchase on Kokam? Even at the single cell
list cost (70Ah 3.7V is $300) a 312V pack would still be $10K **cheaper**
than Valence.
- purchasing in bulk might reduce this to being $15-20k cheaper than Valance
- they have 30% greater energy density than Valance
- with the money saved a BMS unit can be purchased from Victor or Jukka
- Kokam safety tests show just as good of a safety record as Valence
- Cliff has been putting these batteries through actual racing tests with
great results
Don Cameron
If anyone is really serious about doing this I thought they would have
looked at the Valence batteries
_http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf_
(http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf)
.
They are a very expensive battery but not as expensive as buying small cheep
6000 single cells that will fail. Many of the other lithium batteries small
or large many have a cycle life that is about the same as an AGM battery.
Using the small cells has so many contact points BMS and charging issues.
I am trying to get these so more people can afford them including myself.
There are several Solectria owners who are using these batteries. Each battery
has its own BMS and as I understand it can work with some existing lead acid
chargers. So yes they are expensive but with no added expense for a BMS and
able to use a lead acid charge algorithm they are ready to use now.
Current prices
U1= $860
U24= $2030
U27 = $2550
Marc's reply if we put together a 1000 battery order?
Hi Don,
U1=$515
U24=$1220
U27= $1530
UEV = $1160
U-BMS = $100
Thanks,
Marc
So if this was posted on all EV sites the 1000 total might be within reach.
Unless someone has a better legitimate battery I am considering buying 52 of
these myself so we only have 950 to go.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 8:18:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, don't keep us in suspense, give us some specifics, like the pack
voltage/amps for a quantity of x would cost y $.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
>
> Hello Mike
>
> I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a long time about their
> batteries. They are all set up for an EV if we could get a serious group
buy going the
> prices would still be high but I believe better than anything else out
there
> for the money.
>
> Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I think there is some confusion on the YT numbers. The Optima specs
say
> 55aH C/20, and reserve is 25amps for 120 minutes. I was told 24Ah is
> C/1 on the list from that P-fellow effect :), and so if then 50% DOD is
> only 12Ah. someone dig up the past email. If the actual is 24Ah to
50%
> for an hour, then the difference isn't as much. NiMH don't have the
> P-effect and can run 100% DOD.
>
Using RC = 120min and C/20 = 55Ah, you get a Peukert's exponent of
1.043 and Peukert's capacity of 57.4Ah, for a C/1 of 48Ah, but a C/20
value is not too realistic in EV use, so a more realistic C/1 is
closer to 40Ah.
NiMH don't have Peukert's effect, since that is used for lead only,
but they will drop their capacity at high discharge rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Don,
I believe, ISP's spam filter, if works as intended, puts
junk mail in separate folder still allowing me to view it
and download if I choose. Nothing is being deleted without
re-confirming. In this case junk mail box is empty, so
I'm not sure if the mail even reaches my ISP.
Could it be already killed by outgoing mail server of sender's ISP?
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
Victor,
I think it is highly likely that your server spam filter is excluding valid
email. I use a client based one and it often takes valid email messages and
puts them in the "junk mail suspect" folder. Do you have this option with
your server based spam filter?
Feel free to call me and we can discuss.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:40 PM 10/8/2006, Don Cameron wrote:
Anyone thought of doing a group purchase on Kokam? Even at the single cell
list cost (70Ah 3.7V is $300) a 312V pack would still be $10K **cheaper**
than Valence.
Where are you getting those prices?
I talked to Kokam just a couple weeks ago. Low quantity pricing (say
under 1000 units) was:
70AH $470
100AH $671
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Anyone thought of doing a group purchase on Kokam? Even at the
single cell
> list cost (70Ah 3.7V is $300) a 312V pack would still be $10K
**cheaper**
> than Valence.
>
> - purchasing in bulk might reduce this to being $15-20k cheaper than
Valance
> - they have 30% greater energy density than Valance
> - with the money saved a BMS unit can be purchased from Victor or Jukka
> - Kokam safety tests show just as good of a safety record as Valence
> - Cliff has been putting these batteries through actual racing tests
with
> great results
>
Any idea if calender life equals cycle life, or is there an
"expiration date" problem with li-poly? Will Kokam do load testing on
each cell?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:34 PM 10/8/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Marc's reply if we put together a 1000 battery order?
Hi Don,
U1=$515
U24=$1220
U27= $1530
UEV = $1160
U-BMS = $100
Hmm, that UEV looks interesting. 65AH at 19.2V, I'd only need 8 or 9
of them in a Sparrow. So around $10,000.
Hmm, wonder what the single unit pricing on those is...
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few things you need to consider in your calculations (to keep the apples
the same)
- Kokam advertsies > 800 cycles to 80%DOD
- Kokam is rated at 70Ah at 0.5C, Valence is rated at 100Ah at 5C
- use the list price of both for your calculations, or assume the same
discount.
I do like the fact that there are less connections with Valence and do not
have to bother with building or acquiring a BMS.
I know that Kokams need to be kept from heating (Cliff effectively uses air
cooling in Florida under racing use). How about the Valence batteries?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: October 8, 2006 4:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
Compare the real price
A Kokam 70ah pack at 314.5 volts is 85 X 300 is 25,500 A Valence 100 Ah pack
of 312 volts is 26 X 1220 = 31,720
For the above the Valence is 22,204 or really 3296 dollars less. Yes maybe
Kokam will give a discount for a large order as well but also consider
this.
Kokam life cycles 500
Valence life cycles 2000
So the Kokam is really 4 times the above cost. The Kokam at 102,000
thousand and the Valence is still 22,204 thousand.
Then factor what is a BMS worth on each battery? Being able to use charging
for lead acid?
Even if the Kokam was 25% of the cost it is not as good a value. The price
sounds great but really consider apples to apples. I looked at the Kokam
batteries and it was disappointing when I figured out their real cost.
Don
In a message dated 10/8/2006 3:44:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Anyone thought of doing a group purchase on Kokam? Even at the single
cell
list cost (70Ah 3.7V is $300) a 312V pack would still be $10K **cheaper**
than Valence.
- purchasing in bulk might reduce this to being $15-20k cheaper than
Valance
- they have 30% greater energy density than Valance
- with the money saved a BMS unit can be purchased from Victor or Jukka
- Kokam safety tests show just as good of a safety record as Valence
- Cliff has been putting these batteries through actual racing tests with
great results
Don Cameron
If anyone is really serious about doing this I thought they would have
looked at the Valence batteries
_http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf_
(http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf)
.
They are a very expensive battery but not as expensive as buying small
cheep
6000 single cells that will fail. Many of the other lithium batteries small
or large many have a cycle life that is about the same as an AGM battery.
Using the small cells has so many contact points BMS and charging issues.
I am trying to get these so more people can afford them including myself.
There are several Solectria owners who are using these batteries. Each
battery
has its own BMS and as I understand it can work with some existing lead acid
chargers. So yes they are expensive but with no added expense for a BMS and
able to use a lead acid charge algorithm they are ready to use now.
Current prices
U1= $860
U24= $2030
U27 = $2550
Marc's reply if we put together a 1000 battery order?
Hi Don,
U1=$515
U24=$1220
U27= $1530
UEV = $1160
U-BMS = $100
Thanks,
Marc
So if this was posted on all EV sites the 1000 total might be within reach.
Unless someone has a better legitimate battery I am considering buying 52
of
these myself so we only have 950 to go.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 8:18:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, don't keep us in suspense, give us some specifics, like the pack
voltage/amps for a quantity of x would cost y $.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
>
> Hello Mike
>
> I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a long time about their
> batteries. They are all set up for an EV if we could get a serious group
buy going the
> prices would still be high but I believe better than anything else out
there
> for the money.
>
> Don
--- End Message ---
