EV Digest 5991
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: $25,000 Performance Car?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Pricing_Lithium-ion_Valence_Group_buy?=
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Short Range Medium Performance Conversion of an 85 MR2, Moltec Cells?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Electric Rangers get a new pack of 12vAGM. Bye Bye 8v batteries.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by Chris & Patrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: LED brakelights
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electric Rangers get a new pack of 12vAGM. Bye Bye 8v batteries.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Supercapacitor Data
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Optima price, was Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Supercapacitor Data
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> It would be better if I did not have to go up so many hills. I was
getting
> this back on a daily bases with a Solectria. I think in a more
normal area you
> might get 10% at best. For me regeneration is a big deal. The
Solectria I
> could get by with hardly ever touching the brake pedel.
>
> I am driving the factory Ford and Chevy trucks and the regen on them
is no
> where near strong enough. They weigh a lot more than the Solectria
and I am not
> able to recover as much. The factory vehicles have no adjustment.
>
Couldn't agree more! The Ranger's regen does little more than
compression braking and you can't adjust either throttle or braking
value. I prefer coasting, and pass the 80mph mark when going down one
1.2mi section of I-80, but it's no faster than the rest of traffic (I
use regen on this section when crowded). On surface streets, it helps
to know traffic patterns - I get better range using as little as
possible of *any* braking, mechanical or regen.
When initially released, Rangers had V6-level acceleration, but early
testers drove them hard, range suffered, so Ford "detuned" them. They
did it a second time when I was leasing a NiMH version, and could tell
the difference the moment I got the truck back - if you think an EV
that can't go as quick as an ICE is infuriating, try having one that
gets *slowed down*! If any programming hackers want at that firmware,
they can start with mine!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
I'll chime in on that:
I *wish* I had a 9-5 job and could commit to this, even on a regular
part-time basis. But sadly, the demand of trying to build up a small
company in a cutthroat industry places unpredictable "liens" against
my time :-(
You got to pay the bills first, eh?
As you say, if someone has the time and a good idea, I'll be cheering
from the sidelines - lol. Performing a seamless integration of a forum
and the list is a noble goal IMHO. As long as such a person is willing
to also provide hosting for the few EV sites that are currently
running on evforge.net (or I could move them to newer machine setup,
which I need to do anyways, and leave the subdomains intact in DNS), I
would be happy to offer use of the domain. It *does* still belong to
this list, after all :-)
The timing would be good over the next two months, since I have to
change the hosting software on that machine (been having some email
problems - beta software is fun, no?). I had some high hopes for that
particular open-source software, but they have since lost steam. So to
keep it running, I need to switch it to something a bit more "basic"
(LAMP setup with Postfix, for example).
Here I go, responding to my own post again (sorry):
Anyways, I had a thought right after I sent the first one. Perhaps a
"forum.evdl.org" would be a nice baby-step? Just a simple DNS pointer to
whoever is running the forum presentation of the evdl list...
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm thinking our auxiliary battery is bad. If it were, would it be
possible
> that the DC/DC continuously trying to charge it could be enough of a
drain
> cause our traction pack to go down so fast?
>
One question: What is your dc/dc converter's power output? 300watts is
20-25A, twice that if it's a 600watt version.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> One question: What is your dc/dc converter's power output? 300watts is
> 20-25A, twice that if it's a 600watt version.
>
Sorry for extra post, but I left off part: Even a 600watt converter
should only be drawing ~6A from a 120V pack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just came off the scale.
It put numbers like this: 560 kg (1234.8 lb) front and 580 kg (1278.9
lb) back axle. Total came to 1125 kg (2480.63 lb) even it calculates to
1140 by summing up the axles. ? It must have rounded the figures somewhere..
9.5 mile trip in city traffic with bad driving habbits it came down
about 11.3 % DOD. Next time I try to do with more conservative way. I
will try.. I promise... :)
Programming the valet mode to Zilla helps alot to compare. I have now
settings so that the normal drive mode is as the car was originally. 13
kW nominal and 22 kW peak. 72 Volts and 350 Amps. With Valet button
punched down from the gear stick (originally it was 4WD button in
Subarus) it gets the hell loose...
Yes, I do have 5 speed manual on it. Helps a bit on consumption but the
clutch is way too small for more heavier use. No drag racing for me
before it gets replaced. bummer.
-Jukka
Jukka Järvinen kirjoitti:
Ok. You shall have it...
Wait for few days so I have time to have it logged while driving... Even
better.. why don't you fly here and YOU drive it. :)
Just last thursday I did a trip to next city averaging 54 mph and did 82
% DOD with 150 Ah li-Fe cells. It got me with some heavy accelerating
from several lights exactly 53 miles. I perhaps DID leave some parts of
my tyres back there ... eh.
car weights now about 2000 lbs. Will measure it tomorrow exactly.
Drivetrain is badly off now.. Efficiency can't be any better than 70%.
The timing is screwed.
I can get the milage better with 200 Ah Li-Co. With those cells I did
over 100 mile trips every now and then.
My argument for fast EV is purely that they have tried to sell the
"enviromental" vehicles long time. Now they could sell but most attempt
before have not succeeded.
I believe AC propulsion, Tesla and Wrightspeed has got it right.
Performance sells. And if we do burn rubber every now and then.. It's
still FAR away from ICE pollution.
How I do it dfferently. How I impress ICErs. With the burn out... I
start the thing with stand in a way that the first burnout tire
revolution takes about 3 seconds. Accelerating it slowly... It
demonstrated the torque we do love to play with..
Luckily we all are a bit different....
even kinder regards
Jukka
p.s.- I'm not selling you anything... I'm not trying to impress you...
I'm sharing my experiences on technology available today...
Mike Sandman kirjoitti:
Short video in www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
lol...why do people demonstrate green energy vehicles by filling the
air with poisonous tire smoke! it takes very little power to
line-lock and smoke tires relative to accelerating the vehicle. this
kind of display just plays into the gas-guzzling, motor-head thinking
that is destroying our planet.
if you want to impress us, show a trip record of 100 miles back-up by
GPS data with side-by-side data logged from the controller and BMS.
then you will have my attention and my money :)
kind regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not using comparable numbers for battery pricing as $ / cycle ?
so imho a perfect (for me) battery price should be written like this:
exemple for Valence XPseries:
U1= $860, datas: 1000 cycles at 80%DOD until 80% nominal capacity (C) or X
years until 80% of C.
which turn to be 0,86$/cycle or X years until 80% C.... but we miss the last
point...
What i would like to know is the X , please can someone answer to my question:
what is the tested or calculated calendar life of Valence batteries ?
For exemple A123 claim to have very long calendar life because the internal
resistance is claimed to going down with age which is the opposite of standard
lithium aging...
Valence use phosphate based cathode also but no nanomaterial so how does it
compare ?
thanks,
Philippe
---------- Initial Header -----------
>From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To : [email protected]
Cc :
Date : Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:43:24 EDT
Subject : Re: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
Current single pricing was there these are the prices that I was given.
Don
Current prices
U1= $860
U24= $2030
U27 = $2550
In a message dated 10/8/2006 4:35:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 02:34 PM 10/8/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Marc's reply if we put together a 1000 battery order?
>
>Hi Don,
>U1=$515
>U24=$1220
>U27= $1530
>UEV = $1160
>U-BMS = $100
Hmm, that UEV looks interesting. 65AH at 19.2V, I'd only need 8 or 9
of them in a Sparrow. So around $10,000.
Hmm, wonder what the single unit pricing on those is...
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS ---------------------
Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant Sécurité Enfants, le
contrôle parental d'Alice.
http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These look like BB600s, but the cap is different. Their cap doesn't look
removable, but they say
they are flooded. How do they do that? Built in Hydrocaps? The doc mentions
something about their
"flooded construction with electrolyte reservoir ". Their brochures are a
little light on
information. I wonder how much the 55ah cells are?
Dave Cover
--- Kip C Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok, they are not SAFT, but at least it's a state-side source. Does anybody
> have any experience with Moltec?
>
> http://www.moltech.com/products_cells_rech_indPris.htm
>
> -
> Kip
> Eugene, OR
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 100mi @ 65mph = 1.5hr. A 914 can hold 24 YTs @ ~45lbs each, for 1080lbs
> of lead. At the 2-hour rate they are spec'ed to deliver about 52Ah,
> which works out to about 15kWh to 100%DOD. Discharging for only 1.5 of
> the available 2hrs means 11kWh is comsumed. Discharging at the 2hr rate
> (26A) means about 7.5kW (roughly 7.5-10hp depending on drivetrain
> efficiency). It *might* be possible to hold a steady 65mph with this
> power, if you pay attention to details. Running for 1.5 of an available
> 2hrs runtime means 80%DOD,
There is no way you are going to hold 65 mph in a 914 with only 7.5kw. If
you "pay attention to details" you might be able to get away with twice
that...maybe.
Taking peukert and real, tested, performance of YTs into account, your
range (80% DoD) at 65 mph will most likely be somewhere around 35 miles.
You might be able to get the 100 miles at 100% DoD, at around 45 mph.
which is going to take more of a toll on your
> battery life than discharging to 50%DOD or less, but then you've stated
> that 100mi trips would be unusual, so the net impact would be less.
>
>> I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering,
>> or changing every 3-5 years.
>
> AGMs, like YTs satisfy the watering part. How often you need to change
> them will depend on how well you maintain them, how deeply you cycle
> them (how far you drive), and how far you need to drive (as the
> batteries age/wear out the available capacity will decrease, so while
> the car may still be perfectly usable for your shorter trips you may
> find that after 3-5yrs it isn't up to that occasional 100mi trip any
> more).
>
>> I want a heater! (A/C optional)
>
> Heater is 'trivial'. There are two popular options: ceramic heater
> elements that directly convert energy from your pack to heat so that as
> your original fan blows air over them it is warmed; or, a heater element
> that converts energy from the pack into heat that warms a small amount
> of water that is circulated through a heater core that your fan blows
> air over. Given that your 914's original heat source was the exhaust
> heat exchangers, neither of these schemes is a direct bolt-in.
> Presumably a gas-fired auxiliary heater was an option on the 914 just as
> it was on the air-cooled VWs? If so, this might be the easiest heat
> option, though it verges on heresy for many of us dyed-in-the-wool Evers
> ;^>
>
>> So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
>
> 24 Yts (or BTs) @ $160/ea = $3840
> 24 Rudman Mk2B regs @ $45/ea = $1080 (perhaps 1/2 that if you buy blank
> boards and stuff them yourself)
> 1 PFCxx charger $1550/2000/2500 (20/30/50A)
> 1 ADC9" or Warp equivalent: $1650
> 1 Z1KHV $2550
>
> This is $9120 for the major electrical components, not including your
> choice of PFCxx charger; with charger its up to $10670-11620.
>
> Figure around $750 for an adapter, a couple hundred for a DC/DC, plus a
> few hundred more in traction wiring and terminals, main disconnect,
> fuses, etc. Then, whatever you need to spend on the 35yr-old Porsche to
> get it up to snuff, plus suspension and brake improvements and battery
> boxes. The major components actually only ate up about half of your
> budget, and if we deduct the ~$4000 cost of the donor (IIRC), we've got
> about $4-5000 to tackle these other items. Surprisingly enough, it
> looks like it might just be possible for $20k.
>
> The big question is whether you can get the 914 to hold 65mph on about
> 8hp or not. With LRR tires, synthetic lube in the transaxle, good
> alignment, etc. it might just be possible.
>
> Now, if you had a larger budget, or if you were factoring in the cost of
> replacement packs down the road, etc., you could opt for a pack of
> Valence UEV modules instead 16 of these 18V modules would get you to the
> same 288V nominal, but would set you back in the neighbourhood of $32000
> vs the ~$5000 cost for the AGM pack + regs. In favour of the Valence
> pack is that the lighter weight would likely sidestep the need (and
> cost) to upgrade the suspension, and the lighter weight would help
> maintain the acceleration performance despite a lower current limit than
> the AGMs would allow.
>
> If you had a larger budget, you might consider going with an AC drive
> rather than DC, however, with your stated requirements, AC doesn't buy
> you anything other than regen and it is both safer and cheaper to fix
> the mechanical brakes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Holy cow! Thank you! That was an incredibly detailed and thought out answer.
And with some of the reading I've been doing, I think I understand most of
it as well.
The thing with the brakes though, is that they are fine. They've even been
upgraded to 911 brakes. But they're not power, and this is the first car
I've ever not had power brakes on, I don't even think it's an option. So it
feels like you have to really step on them to make it stop. But if you DO
really step on them, it stops fast and surprisingly smooth.
It's still scary how much pressure I have to put on them.
Well, I've resigned myself to lead until the Valences come down in price.
I've also resigned myself to DC and that I'll have to live without regen,
unless I jury-rig something else up like an additional external generator.
So it looks like I'll be starting with the VoltsPorsche DC kit. I know those
battery boxes are designed for a specific size battery, will the Yellow Tops
fit?
Thanks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Do not rely on the *possibility* of regen braking as a substitute for
adequate mechanical brakes! Fix the brakes whether you go AC w/regen or
DC without.
> I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge
> and at a decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the
> batteries, or reducing their lifetime.
100mi @ 65mph = 1.5hr. A 914 can hold 24 YTs @ ~45lbs each, for 1080lbs
of lead. At the 2-hour rate they are spec'ed to deliver about 52Ah,
which works out to about 15kWh to 100%DOD. Discharging for only 1.5 of
the available 2hrs means 11kWh is comsumed. Discharging at the 2hr rate
(26A) means about 7.5kW (roughly 7.5-10hp depending on drivetrain
efficiency). It *might* be possible to hold a steady 65mph with this
power, if you pay attention to details. Running for 1.5 of an available
2hrs runtime means 80%DOD, which is going to take more of a toll on your
battery life than discharging to 50%DOD or less, but then you've stated
that 100mi trips would be unusual, so the net impact would be less.
> I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering,
> or changing every 3-5 years.
AGMs, like YTs satisfy the watering part. How often you need to change
them will depend on how well you maintain them, how deeply you cycle
them (how far you drive), and how far you need to drive (as the
batteries age/wear out the available capacity will decrease, so while
the car may still be perfectly usable for your shorter trips you may
find that after 3-5yrs it isn't up to that occasional 100mi trip any
more).
> I want a heater! (A/C optional)
Heater is 'trivial'. There are two popular options: ceramic heater
elements that directly convert energy from your pack to heat so that as
your original fan blows air over them it is warmed; or, a heater element
that converts energy from the pack into heat that warms a small amount
of water that is circulated through a heater core that your fan blows
air over. Given that your 914's original heat source was the exhaust
heat exchangers, neither of these schemes is a direct bolt-in.
Presumably a gas-fired auxiliary heater was an option on the 914 just as
it was on the air-cooled VWs? If so, this might be the easiest heat
option, though it verges on heresy for many of us dyed-in-the-wool Evers
;^>
> So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
24 Yts (or BTs) @ $160/ea = $3840
24 Rudman Mk2B regs @ $45/ea = $1080 (perhaps 1/2 that if you buy blank
boards and stuff them yourself)
1 PFCxx charger $1550/2000/2500 (20/30/50A)
1 ADC9" or Warp equivalent: $1650
1 Z1KHV $2550
This is $9120 for the major electrical components, not including your
choice of PFCxx charger; with charger its up to $10670-11620.
Figure around $750 for an adapter, a couple hundred for a DC/DC, plus a
few hundred more in traction wiring and terminals, main disconnect,
fuses, etc. Then, whatever you need to spend on the 35yr-old Porsche to
get it up to snuff, plus suspension and brake improvements and battery
boxes. The major components actually only ate up about half of your
budget, and if we deduct the ~$4000 cost of the donor (IIRC), we've got
about $4-5000 to tackle these other items. Surprisingly enough, it
looks like it might just be possible for $20k.
The big question is whether you can get the 914 to hold 65mph on about
8hp or not. With LRR tires, synthetic lube in the transaxle, good
alignment, etc. it might just be possible.
Now, if you had a larger budget, or if you were factoring in the cost of
replacement packs down the road, etc., you could opt for a pack of
Valence UEV modules instead 16 of these 18V modules would get you to the
same 288V nominal, but would set you back in the neighbourhood of $32000
vs the ~$5000 cost for the AGM pack + regs. In favour of the Valence
pack is that the lighter weight would likely sidestep the need (and
cost) to upgrade the suspension, and the lighter weight would help
maintain the acceleration performance despite a lower current limit than
the AGMs would allow.
If you had a larger budget, you might consider going with an AC drive
rather than DC, however, with your stated requirements, AC doesn't buy
you anything other than regen and it is both safer and cheaper to fix
the mechanical brakes.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Patrick,
I had the same problem, when I was running a DC-DC motor generator made by
Honeywell. It only ran when my EV was running.
The problem was, is that I have many 1/2 and 1 mile trips in a day, with one
hour stops between trips. There was not enough charging time with these
short trips and the auxiliary battery would keep resending in voltage.
The motor-generator was really design as a 12 volt power supply with a
maximum voltage of 13.5 volts output which was not high enough for short
charging time.
So I replace it with a Delco alternator-inverter unit that has adjustable
charging voltage from 13.5 to 16 volts at 145 amp and also can provide 7 kw
at 120 VAC 60 HZ for my electric heaters at the same time.
I install a Trojan SCS 225 135AH deep cycle as my auxiliary battery. As
time went on, the voltage would drop into the 10's setting over 24 hours.
The problem, is that I keep adding more 12 volt devices, that needs 24/7
constant power in normal or sleep mode.
To solve this problem, I install a small on board Schumacher Smart Charger
for the auxiliary battery that has a maintainer cycle and deep charge cycle
that comes on when I plug in my AC power.
For the last 2 years, that auxiliary battery now maintains 13.5 VDC+. If
the voltage drops below 13.3 V than it switches to a charge cycle.
The DC-DC-AC inverter still needs to charge the auxiliary battery at 15 to
15.5 volts during these short trips and provide 14.5 volts to all the 12
volts devices that may run over 80 amps at times.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris & Patrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 11:14 PM
Subject: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
> I'd like to follow up on the problem with bad voltage sag (down to 60
> going
> up a hill at the end of our 11 mile commute) that I'd posted about a few
> days ago. My apologies if some of this is redundant or even perhaps
> already
> answered - my receipt of EVDL digests has been problematic, and I never
> saw
> my second post on this topic show up.
>
> I'm thinking our auxiliary battery is bad. If it were, would it be
> possible
> that the DC/DC continuously trying to charge it could be enough of a drain
> cause our traction pack to go down so fast?
>
> After the problem (which occurred on the evening of the 3rd), I charged up
> the pack and let it sit while I pondered, and dealt with our ICE car which
> happened to develop unrelated problems at the same time (I hate when that
> happens!).
>
> Four days later, when I came out today to do some troubleshooting, I
> noticed
> that the Emeter was blank, no display. This had happened once before when
> I'd had a problem with the DC/DC and the aux. battery had gone dead. When
> I
> checked, the aux. battery was sitting at only 1.5 volts! After turning on
> the DC/DC, it read 14.1V.
>
> I left the DC/DC on for 6-7 hrs to charge up the aux, at which point the
> aux. battery was at 14.19 and 12.1 (with and w/o the DC/DC on,
> respectively). The main pack was sitting at 128.2.
>
> This morning, after topping off the pack charge to just under 133 volts in
> preparation for a short test drive, it seemed like the Aux Battery was
> again
> drawing a lot of juice through the DC/DC - enough to drop the voltage in
> the
> main pack by .1V every 12 seconds.
>
> I'm pretty sure this isn't normal, but is it abnormal enough to account
> for
> my pack to sag as badly as I'd recounted previously (60V uphill at 210
> amps,
> 25-30 mph) at only 11 miles/27Ahrs?
>
> I'm guessing I may have more than one problem - what d'yall think?
>
> This is a 120V Geo Metro, with ten 12V C&D Technologies Dynasty UPS
> Batteries. If it helps, the labels on the batteries have the following
> information:
> 134.8 AH (20 hr rate to 1.75 VPC @ 77F)
> 475 WPC (15 min rate to 1.67 VPC @ 77F)
> IEC Rating 120.3 AH (10 hr rate to 1.8 VPC @ 20C)
> Float Charge Voltage 13.5 to 13.8 VDL @ 77F
>
> I'd be very appreciative of any observations, thoughts, advice or
> suggestions that anyone can offer.
>
> Also, how close should the individual batteries' voltages be to each
> other,
> in general?
>
> Thank you kindly,
> - Patrick
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://southtownelanes.com/electric_pickups.html Are Trojan 24 AGM
batteries miracle batteries or is a change from a 2000 pound pack of Delphi
8v batteries to a 1400 pound pack of Trojans & still getting 60 mile range
normal? Can the Trojans be that much better than the Delphi 8v battery?
The orginal pack of Delphi batteries got 60 miles range. Now this guy claim
60 miles range on a smaller weight pack. Something is rotten in Denmark &
from my experience it's the Delphi Batteries. I can get a 650 pound pack
compared to a 750 pound pack I use now. I wouldn't mind a lighter pack but
I'll have to redesign the battery rack. If these batteries are better than
Optimas or Exides & only 110 dollars each they may be a good source for ev
batteries.....If I spend less on batteries I can afford a Rudman charger.
That'd get me out of the hole sooner. Quicker charging. Smaller pack.
It's not the range it's the charging time. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A clarification -
> This morning, after topping off the pack charge to just under 133 volts in
> preparation for a short test drive, it seemed like the Aux Battery was again
> drawing a lot of juice through the DC/DC - enough to drop the voltage in the
> main pack by .1V every 12 seconds.
-------
While the voltage was dropping like this, the Emeter noted only a very small
amperage, jumping around from 0 to .2 or .3 amps. I've wondered before if my
Emeter was not so accurate in small increments. Could the voltage really be
dropping with such a small load, or is the reporting of that load likely
off?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This truck is a USE vehicle, so the dash wiring is stock. I think it's
just one of the GM things. I hope led's in the dash will do the trick.
Mike
--- "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 07:45 AM 10/8/2006, Mike Phillips wrote:
> >I guess I'm just plain lucky. They've burned out on me with lots of
> >cars. This truck runs at 14-14.3v.
>
> Curious. The only time I had dash lights burn out was when my
> voltage regulator failed, and cranked the voltage WAY up to something
> like 20V.
> Hmm, did you rewire your car? Any chance you used better wiring than
>
> the manufacturer = less voltage drop?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
See Below.
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > I just breadboarded this circuit. The LEDs light very smoothly on or
> > off. I need a low range of 9.0-9.5v and a high range of 13.0-13.5v.
> > I've only tried it using LEDs for U1 and U2. Right now the parts
> > values are just a bit off, but the concept is solid. Since I'm going
> > out for lunch I'll grab some other zener values.
>
> Visible LEDs are about 1.5-2.3v; the infrared LEDs in optocouplers are
> more like 1.1v. So, pick your values with the optocouplers; not visible
> LEDs.
Right. I set the values based on the output voltage of the opto. As
the output voltage of the opto would increase it would not increase
very fast as the opto Rx led became saturated. So I set the values of
the input resistors to make sure that the opto still had a quick
responding output over the full voltage range of my battery module of
9 nicads in series. Then I set the brightness of the visible led's
with the rest of the circuitry.
>
> Or, use both visible LEDs and optocouplers, with the two LEDs in
series.
> All the optocoupler output can be wired in parallel (all U1s in
> parallel, all U2s in parallel) so you only have 3 isolated wires coming
> from the pack to the dash. All you need at the dash is two LEDs and two
> series resistors to 12v. One wire tells you *some* battery went
> overvoltage. The other wire tells you *some* battery went undervoltage.
That would certainly simplify the wiring. What I have learned from my
buddy's ACP Saturn is that watching all the battery led's at the same
time teaches me more about the thermal and charging characteristics of
batterys than I could have ever learned without it. After seeing 28
led's monitoring 28 Yellow Tops, I can see the value in doing whatever
it takes to get 28 led's into my dash. It's just coincidental that
both of our vehicles have 28 led's. I could use anything that divides
evenly into the half pack of 126 cells.
> Having a visible LED on each module means you can look at the pack
> itself to see which battery caused the alarm.
>
> > This circuit makes for more parts in the pack.
>
> Yes; but you repeat the same circuit N times by using a little PC
board.
> These parts are all very small and very cheap. I'd pot the board in
> epoxy or something with only the wires sticking out to prevent damage
> from water, battery acid etc, and mount them right on top of the
> batteries with short leads.
Yes, I planned on a pcb in the pack. Surface mount for sure. But
wanted to be as part free as possible. Although what really matters is
getting the info the the dash without stringing another transatlantic
cable :)
>
> > Do you suppose I could put an opto between the 12v battery and the
> > rest of the circuit?
>
> You could, but that's a different circuit. Then you have to contend
with
> the variations and drift of the optocouplers. They work better as a
> digital indicator than for analog signals.
In my previous opto testing I had a pot for each module in the battery
box, then another pot in the display box. That way I can make the
output of each opto the same as well as have the dash pots for making
the brightness of each led the same.
>
> > I'm only measuring up to 15ma when the high LED is fully lit, 8ma
> > when both LEDs are out, and 2ma when the low LED is lit. So maybe
> > any opto could drive it?
>
> I originally designed this circuit for visible LEDs, where you needed
> the higher currents to get adequate brightness. But with optocouplers,
> the resistors can be much higher (much lower battery currents) because
> darlington optocouplers have a gain of 10 or more.
>
> > Since I have 28 modules to monitor I'd like to not have more than one
> > wire per module going to the dash with a common return for all
channels.
>
> This setup assumes just 3 isolated wires from the pack; common,
> overvoltage, and undervoltage. You could run individual wires (after
> all, they are isolated from the pack) if you wanted to know exactly
> which battery went over- or under-voltage. Look up the original July
> 2004 post; I included a multiplexed circuit to do this that would only
> need 15 wires for all 28 batteries.
I did look at the multiplex circuit in the original post but I could
not get the ascii characters to align to make any sense of the
schematic. I cut and pasted it to Notepad to no avail. What ever you
can do to help me understand it would be appreciated.
Mike
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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--- Begin Message ---
With either the 8v or 12v batterys you are toasting them driving to 60
miles. That's way too deep of a depth of discharge to do more than
once. Especially if Ford designed it.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://southtownelanes.com/electric_pickups.html Are Trojan 24 AGM
> batteries miracle batteries or is a change from a 2000 pound pack of
Delphi
> 8v batteries to a 1400 pound pack of Trojans & still getting 60 mile
range
> normal? Can the Trojans be that much better than the Delphi 8v battery?
> The orginal pack of Delphi batteries got 60 miles range. Now this
guy claim
> 60 miles range on a smaller weight pack. Something is rotten in
Denmark &
> from my experience it's the Delphi Batteries. I can get a 650 pound
pack
> compared to a 750 pound pack I use now. I wouldn't mind a lighter
pack but
> I'll have to redesign the battery rack. If these batteries are
better than
> Optimas or Exides & only 110 dollars each they may be a good source
for ev
> batteries.....If I spend less on batteries I can afford a Rudman
charger.
> That'd get me out of the hole sooner. Quicker charging. Smaller pack.
> It's not the range it's the charging time. Lawrence Rhodes......
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Roland,
I noticed a couple of questionable remarks.
"cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each" This does not sound correct. Maybe
ampere-minutes. Even at that, still high.
"A 17 volt module has a capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH each"
I don't think so. Capacitors in series have the capacitance of each divided by
the number of units, not multiplied. 10 cells at 460 F each in series would
give 46 F for the series string. Also, AH ratings do not add for units in
series. Just like AH do not add for batteries in series.
I have used ESMA product. In a hybrid, not EV. There a variety of types
from ESMA. I used modules rated at 45 volts, 90 F and 68 kilojoules. Weighed
17.7 Kg each. Each module consisted of 30 cells rated at 1.2 volts.
When comparing capacitors to batteries, best to use energy. 1 joule equals 1
watt-second. Or 1 kilowatt-hour equals 3,600,000 joules.
Super or Ultra Capacitor. Doesn't make any difference. No industry
standard. Most correctly termed "electrochemical capacitor".
Jeff
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Page-Echols"
To:
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
> I'm kind of amazed at the price of even current ultra caps to get
> even 1/2 of the range. Do capacitors have a charge cycle rating?
> What are the issues that are going to come up with using these
> instead of batteries? They are only going to get cheaper and better
> suited for something like this.
>
> Ian
Hello Ian,
These are super capacitors, not ultra-capacitors.
These units come in a 10-cell modules connected in series. At about 1.7
volts per cell this becomes 17 volts per modules. Something like a 8D
battery with post.
The dimension of a 10 cell module is 20 inches long by 10 inches high to the
top of the post and 7 inches wide that weighs 75 lbs.
A 220 volt pack would take 13 of these modules that would weigh 975 lbs.
Less than my thirty 72 lbs 6 volts that weigh 2160 lbs.
These 13 modules will fit in the same area of my 180 volt pack except they
would be 220 volt.
Unlike batteries of a 180 volt pack, which is charge to 6.68 volts per
battery or 200 volts total and drops right to 192 volts, are normally
discharge to 50% DOD or 179 volts, the super capacitors maximum voltage
starts out at 220 volts and drops right to 210 volts at load.
The voltage window is 210 to 105 volts with a maximum power of 420 KW or
about 32 KW per 17 volt module with a voltage window of 16-8 volts.
Each capacitor cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each. A 17 volt module has a
capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH each.
Operating window per 17 volt module is from 16 to 8 volts. Have a internal
Ohmic reistance of 2 mOhms.
Operating temperture is -50 to +70 C.
These can be charge with any ampere available up to the maximum voltage of
the pack. The 10 ton buses have a loop range of about 10 miles and they
charge them with 300 amps for a 5 to 10 minute charge.
The Cycle Life is about 500,000 cycles.
The estimate cost is $300.00 per cell.
$3000.00 per 10 cell module.
$39,000.00 for 13 modules.
Data from: http://www.esma-cap.com/about/?lang=English
Roland
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
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--- Begin Message ---
As what was mentioned before about splinter/spinoffs
and similar agenda forums, just to name a few other
forums and bloggers that participate to this list:
Forums:
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net (splinter)
http://www.visforvoltage.com
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/
Bloggers:
http://www.evconvert.com
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
In addition splinter mailing lists:
http://mailman.evtech.org
--- Michael Trefry wrote:
> I would gladly take the lead on this. I would gladly
> support this site. I
> would happily host the site. (I get free hosting on
> a dedicated server
> through a partnership with an ISP)
>
> Anything to make information more readily available.
>
> As a matter of fact, just thinking about this, we
> don't even need to change
> the list address. As long as I can programmatically
> send emails to the list
> on behalf of signed in users, the current list can
> stay the same. We'll just
> have a new archived, interactive entry point to the
> list.
>
> I was going to go with evblogs.org (even bought the
> domain name) but will
> happily use evdl.org if that makes more sense, and
> if David is willing to
> turn it over (or retain ownership, but point the
> name servers to my site.)
>
> I'd love to have a central place for people to share
> information about their
> EV's. Pictures speak a thousand words, so any member
> would be welcome to
> create a blog and photo gallery.
>
> Tell you what, let me see what I can build with no
> disruption to the list,
> and we'll go from there. If I can successfully do
> that, maybe Dave and I can
> talk about the domain name. If there's a need to
> disrupt the list we can
> revisit that.
>
> I'd just like to make sure that there is interest.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Fritz wrote:
Official home of the OSMC Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc/
OSMC Project information: http://www.robotpower.com/osmc_info/
I realize this is a DC controller of a much smaller capacity, but it
does show the success of specifically an open source motor controller.
You can download schematics and specs and build it yourself, buy parts
kits, or even assembled products.
This is a reasonable project to emulate. I wonder how long it took?
Also, I notice it costs about $199 for the OSMC power module, plus $250
for the DALF controller to run it. That's $449 for an 80v 160amp
controller (without case, heatsink, fan, and other necessary bits).
That's actually no cheaper than a commercial controller. I'm not sure if
you'd save any money with this approach even if you built it all yourself.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not any more Lee. I did LOTS of shopping around, and the best price
I found was about $156 ea in Qty 13. I ended up paying $160 ea at
>> CostCo since that was 2 hours less driving time to get them.
Death to All Spammers wrote:
$148 here (but $20 to ship)
http://www.lowcostbatteries.com/product_p/d34-fslash-78y.htm
$138.82 here (no shipping listed)
http://www.diversifiedbattery.com/product536.html
And my local Sam's Club has them for $149 (no shipping; you pick them up).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
Here is what the spec sheet lists for a 10 cell supercapacitor No. 10EC303:
Operating voltage window, V 16-8
Maximum voltage, V 17
Minimum OCV, V 9
Capacitance,F (13 modules) 6000
Capacitance,F (Ah)(per cell) 460 (15)
Maximum power, kW 32 K
Maximum power, kW (13 modules) 420 K
Energy stored, kJ 576
Energy stored, MJ (13 modules) 7.5
Therefore according to this specs., 13 x 460 = 5980 or about 6000.
I know that standard capacitors in series don't add there values, but these
capacitors are built like batteries with a electrolyte, so aren't they more
like a battery type capacitor?
Why would they spec the cell at 460 F and the 13 of these at about 6000 F
and 130 cells at 1.7 volts each at 220 volts?
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
> Hello Roland,
>
> I noticed a couple of questionable remarks.
>
> "cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each" This does not sound correct.
> Maybe ampere-minutes. Even at that, still high.
>
> "A 17 volt module has a capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH
> each" I don't think so. Capacitors in series have the capacitance of
> each divided by the number of units, not multiplied. 10 cells at 460 F
> each in series would give 46 F for the series string. Also, AH ratings do
> not add for units in series. Just like AH do not add for batteries in
> series.
>
> I have used ESMA product. In a hybrid, not EV. There a variety of
> types from ESMA. I used modules rated at 45 volts, 90 F and 68
> kilojoules. Weighed 17.7 Kg each. Each module consisted of 30 cells
> rated at 1.2 volts.
>
> When comparing capacitors to batteries, best to use energy. 1 joule
> equals 1 watt-second. Or 1 kilowatt-hour equals 3,600,000 joules.
>
> Super or Ultra Capacitor. Doesn't make any difference. No industry
> standard. Most correctly termed "electrochemical capacitor".
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Page-Echols"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
>
>
> > I'm kind of amazed at the price of even current ultra caps to get
> > even 1/2 of the range. Do capacitors have a charge cycle rating?
> > What are the issues that are going to come up with using these
> > instead of batteries? They are only going to get cheaper and better
> > suited for something like this.
> >
> > Ian
>
> Hello Ian,
>
> These are super capacitors, not ultra-capacitors.
>
> These units come in a 10-cell modules connected in series. At about 1.7
> volts per cell this becomes 17 volts per modules. Something like a 8D
> battery with post.
>
> The dimension of a 10 cell module is 20 inches long by 10 inches high to
> the
> top of the post and 7 inches wide that weighs 75 lbs.
>
> A 220 volt pack would take 13 of these modules that would weigh 975 lbs.
> Less than my thirty 72 lbs 6 volts that weigh 2160 lbs.
>
> These 13 modules will fit in the same area of my 180 volt pack except they
> would be 220 volt.
>
> Unlike batteries of a 180 volt pack, which is charge to 6.68 volts per
> battery or 200 volts total and drops right to 192 volts, are normally
> discharge to 50% DOD or 179 volts, the super capacitors maximum voltage
> starts out at 220 volts and drops right to 210 volts at load.
>
> The voltage window is 210 to 105 volts with a maximum power of 420 KW or
> about 32 KW per 17 volt module with a voltage window of 16-8 volts.
>
> Each capacitor cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each. A 17 volt module has
> a
> capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH each.
>
> Operating window per 17 volt module is from 16 to 8 volts. Have a internal
> Ohmic reistance of 2 mOhms.
>
> Operating temperture is -50 to +70 C.
>
> These can be charge with any ampere available up to the maximum voltage of
> the pack. The 10 ton buses have a loop range of about 10 miles and they
> charge them with 300 amps for a 5 to 10 minute charge.
>
> The Cycle Life is about 500,000 cycles.
>
> The estimate cost is $300.00 per cell.
> $3000.00 per 10 cell module.
> $39,000.00 for 13 modules.
>
> Data from: http://www.esma-cap.com/about/?lang=English
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
> Business.
>
>
--- End Message ---
