EV Digest 5993
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Mitsubishi EVs
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
by Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Short Range Medium Performance Conversion of an 85 MR2, Moltec Cells?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Painting a motor?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Citicar on Hummer commercial
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: lithium cells high power long lasting
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) My EV Buggy ride
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: motor
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) What is the future of Li BMS?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: 6000 Batteries
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Questions about this conversion kit.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Cruise control?
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: What is the future of Li BMS?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Painting a motor?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Firefly's competition
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Electric Rangers get a new pack of 12vAGM. Bye Bye 8v batteries.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) EV wanted on Craigslist
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Today Show - Hit the Road with this Electric Car
by "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Xebra at ZAP! in Concord, CA
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: What is the future of Li BMS?
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Sydney AEVA Open Day
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: EV wanted on Craigslist
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jukka!
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Europe, Finland, Riihimaki.
>
> If you go to googleearth you'll find it there.
>
> "FEVT office" lat=60.7254918593, lon=24.7661182981
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> Mike Phillips kirjoitti:
> > Thanks Jukka. The next time I'm out that way I'll look you up :)
> >
> > Where are you located?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jukka Järvinen <ev@> wrote:
> >> The brand is Subaru Elcat and modell is CityWagon. www.elcat.fi
> >>
> >> Was designed for postal and delivery use for cities. 250 made in
> > Finland
> >> and about the same amount in Japan. If I remember correctly.
> >>
> >> Othervice nice and handy but there is one feet from bumper front to
> > your
> >> tip of toe. So thats it for the collision safety...
> >>
> >> Again.. well come for tesdrive.
> >>
> >> -Jukka
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Phillips kirjoitti:
> >>> Jukka,
> >>>
> >>> What an excellent setup! No doubt alot of work. The burnouts do
speak
> >>> volumes! I think 2000 lbs contributes greatly. What is the brand and
> >>> type of vehicle that you used?
> >>>
> >>> Now where did I put my passport?
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This kit, motor, and company have been discussed a lot, check the
archives for users experiences. In short, don't go there.
Mark, did you get any performance tests out of the cheap GE motor yet?
Jim Fritz wrote:
After a link to this companies number 2 kit a few days ago, I started looking
at their number 1 kit and contemplating an experiment. As I don't have a lot of
experience in this field I thought I would bounce a couple of them of the list.
The URL of the item in question:
http://www.e-volks.com/about1.html
My questions are (at least the first of a few):
1.) Doesn't this motor look a lot like an aircraft generator? Everytime I see
one mentioned somewhere it looks exactly like this.
2.) What would it be like driving a conversion with a contactor instead of a controller?
The description says it is not jerky because of the tranny and clutch. However when I
built my homemade fun mobile (seriously hacked ex-industrial robot) I started out with a
contactor only. When I put a full battery pack in and regeared it a little, pushing the
"GO" switch was followed by trying to hold onto a run-away train. I guess
that's what you get when you try to make a machine built to move around 20,000 pounds go
fast with only 400 pounds. BTW this contraption is why I am gearing up for my first
conversion.
3.) I am looking to only get NEV performance. 30 total miles per charge. 45
mph max. I also am looking to do this on a limited income.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated, and answered with only more questions I am sure to say.
---
Thanks,
Jim
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/report_mitsubis.html#more
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the responses to the specific kit, but can anyone speak to
question 2? I'm wondering if I can do the conversion in 2 steps, good battery
and motor with a contactor only now and a good controller later. Possibly 3
steps, good battery, cheap motor, contactor, and then upgrading motor and
eventually adding a controller. I would be quite happy with a vehicle I can go
20-30 miles at 35-45mph. Just shopping and errands in a smallish town, besides
as I understand it my range would be much better at an average of 25mph.
Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: After a link to this companies number 2
kit a few days ago, I started looking at their number 1 kit and contemplating
an experiment. As I don't have a lot of experience in this field I thought I
would bounce a couple of them of the list. The URL of the item in question:
http://www.e-volks.com/about1.html
My questions are (at least the first of a few):
1.) Doesn't this motor look a lot like an aircraft generator? Everytime I see
one mentioned somewhere it looks exactly like this.
2.) What would it be like driving a conversion with a contactor instead of a
controller? The description says it is not jerky because of the tranny and
clutch. However when I built my homemade fun mobile (seriously hacked
ex-industrial robot) I started out with a contactor only. When I put a full
battery pack in and regeared it a little, pushing the "GO" switch was followed
by trying to hold onto a run-away train. I guess that's what you get when you
try to make a machine built to move around 20,000 pounds go fast with only 400
pounds. BTW this contraption is why I am gearing up for my first conversion.
3.) I am looking to only get NEV performance. 30 total miles per charge. 45
mph max. I also am looking to do this on a limited income.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated, and answered with only more
questions I am sure to say.
---
Thanks,
Jim
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually they look alot like the aircraft starting batteries used in
commercial use. I have some SAFTS that look just like that. The ones that
I have do have removable caps, they just screw down inside the round part in
between the posts.
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Short Range Medium Performance Conversion of an 85 MR2, Moltec
Cells?
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 05:15:11 -0700 (PDT)
These look like BB600s, but the cap is different. Their cap doesn't look
removable, but they say
they are flooded. How do they do that? Built in Hydrocaps? The doc mentions
something about their
"flooded construction with electrolyte reservoir ". Their brochures are a
little light on
information. I wonder how much the 55ah cells are?
Dave Cover
--- Kip C Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok, they are not SAFT, but at least it's a state-side source. Does
anybody
> have any experience with Moltec?
>
> http://www.moltech.com/products_cells_rech_indPris.htm
>
> -
> Kip
> Eugene, OR
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 5, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
That just made me crack up so hard 8^ ) (what so if I say jump off
a cliff, hehe) Here's a little secret... Shhhh... The Siamese8 is just
a rattle can paint job and it's not even hi-temp paint. I actually
brought the housings down to the Wayland juice bar last year and John
painted them himself with his color choice right there in his driveway
outside the garage, so if your motors are not overheating even regular
old rattlecan will work just fine and there's a lot more colors to
choose from, 8^P
He, He, He - you and Mark Hastings are way behind the curve ;-)
I painted the outside of my Prestolite MTC-4001 motor with a rattle can
back in 1998. It was (and is to this day) standard Rust-oleum satin
black. I have only done it once.
Paul "neon" G.
P.S. - I think you need a ride in the EV Buggy Jim (John seems to like
it.) Not as scary fast as John's creations but take a good look at the
road as it goes by! (plus you can fully inspect the motor just by
standing behind the ride :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Monday Night Football they used a Citicar in the Hummer commercial.
Not in the most positive light. But then again it was a GM commercial.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:08 AM 10/9/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Check out the links below to see 45 ah lithium cells
Over 3000 cycles 80% DOD at the C3 rate.
_http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/VLE_module.pdf_
(http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/VLE_module.pdf)
Philippe I agree with what your saying in your post below but what good is
it if they will not sell you a battery? Has anyone been able to buy an A123
battery? If not has anyone even had a reply or know their cost?
Same comment applies to the Saft batteries.
What good are they if you can't buy them?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
P.S. - I think you need a ride in the EV Buggy Jim (John seems to like
it.) Not as scary fast as John's creations but take a good look at the
road as it goes by! (plus you can fully inspect the motor just by
standing behind the ride :-)
Hey Paul
I'm always into getting an EVgrin, and sticking my face into peoples motors,
sounds like a hoot! I'm going to hold you to this now!
Where are you located? I don't have to drive to NY to get it do I, you EV
ride teasers, LMAO. Okay, I see you're in WA., thats fairly close 8^ )
Cya
Jim
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Michael Trefry wrote:
But unless you all decide to go the Microsoft route, there's not a lot I can
offer in assistance.
For what it's worth, my personal observation has been that the EV
community is comprised of a large percentage of Unix/Linux users
(including myself). If this is the case then, IMHO, it'd probably be a
good idea to stick with a LAMP-based setup for the sake of having a
better chance of finding people to help with this project now and in the
future.
I know that somewhat already exists with evalbum, and that's a great
resource, but it's a little dated. (no support for rss is a big thing)
Actually, the EVAlbum was recently upgraded to a PHP + database driven
system. Perhaps it's not the most "bleeding-edge" technology, but I
think it serves its purpose well and those who worked on upgrading it
did a great job! I fail to see how RSS support is either necessary or
desirable for the EVAlbum?
My 0.33 kWh,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would first like to thank all the folks who have helped with EV
questions over the years. I used a golf cart as a platform to teach
myself basic EV principals without the full price up front. If I could
not make a golf cart work there was no sense in me trying a full size
EV. I am still learning but the golf cart has taught me more than I
could have imagined. I did not talk much about this project as most EV
folks did not seem to like the idea of golf carts in the same list with
EVs. I can understand not wanting to be associated with a little 15 MPH
vehicle myself.
The golf cart was entered into a competition for golf carts last June in
Richmond, Kentucky, I wanted to see if all these years of number
crunching and testing was teaching me anything or did I just think I was
doing good. Four out of five trophies later I figured maybe I was doing
something right. My golf cart had the quickest 1/8 mile time of any cart
there, gas or electric. I beat a modified 1000cc gas rig also. The event
obviously is not held for environmental reasons but for folks who like
playing with golf carts. What happened was you had a bunch of folks that
normally had no exposure to the power of electric vehicles above a 48
volt golf cart see what kind of performance electric is capable of. I
even had some die-hard ICE folks come over and congratulate me on my
wins... this did not mean they were ready to quit playing with their gas
rigs just yet but they will never forget that day and what the power of
an electric golf cart did. The kids were asking questions like crazy and
thought it was very cool, I had many questions about making an electric
racecar. I pointed out that NEDRA has already been formed and gave them
web sites to vist.
So why am I printing this now? The president of the electric auto
association in Phoenix saw my work on a golf cart forum and asked me to
give a brief overview at their October meeting last Saturday. If EV
folks want to periodically hear about an electric golf cart doing 8.7
seconds in the 1/8 mile and catching the attention of many non-EV folks
I will be happy to share. I promise I will not talk golf carts but on
rare occasions here.
Specs:
1986 Club Car
120 volt battery pack
Electronic control
Golf cart motor but not stock.
27" Mud tires on 12" rims
Rear gear 12.44:1
Top speed 50 MPH.... yes that little 6" motor was close to 8000 RPM.
Thanks,
Nate
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris & Patrick wrote:
> I'm thinking our auxiliary battery is bad. If it were, would
> it be possible that the DC/DC continuously trying to charge
> it could be enough of a drain cause our traction pack to go
> down so fast?
This is possible, depending on if you leave the DC/DC running while the
car is parked. A 30A DC/DC could draw in the neighbourhood of 3A from a
120V pack, which isn't enough to run the pack down while you are
driving, but if the DC/DC is running while the car is parked during the
day, it could use up as much as an additional 24Ah over an 8hr workday.
> I left the DC/DC on for 6-7 hrs to charge up the aux, at
> which point the aux. battery was at 14.19 and 12.1 (with
> and w/o the DC/DC on, respectively).
12.1V w/o DC/DC and without any load other than the E-Meter is not a
fully charged 12V battery. You should see it sitting at 13V or better.
> The main pack was sitting at 128.2.
This is low for a fully charged 120V pack of AGMs; mine will still be
sitting at 130V or better after *months* of inactivity.
> This morning, after topping off the pack charge to just under
> 133 volts in preparation for a short test drive, it seemed
> like the Aux Battery was again drawing a lot of juice through
> the DC/DC - enough to drop the voltage in the main pack by .1V
> every 12 seconds.
With the DC/DC on, but the car otherwise off (no load on the traction
pack other than the DC/DC), check what the E-Meter indicates the load
current to be.
Imediately after coming off charge, the pack voltage will drop
significantly in a relatively short time, and you may have just been
observing the normal voltage relaxation.
> I'm pretty sure this isn't normal, but is it abnormal enough
> to account for my pack to sag as badly as I'd recounted
> previously (60V uphill at 210 amps, 25-30 mph) at only 11
> miles/27Ahrs?
>
> I'm guessing I may have more than one problem - what d'yall think?
>
> This is a 120V Geo Metro, with ten 12V C&D Technologies Dynasty UPS
> Batteries. If it helps, the labels on the batteries have the following
> information:
> 134.8 AH (20 hr rate to 1.75 VPC @ 77F)
I think you've got something far more serious wrong than your DC/DC
working overtime ;^>
Your pack is over 2x the capacity of mine, and with about the same Ah
removed from my pack, the lowest I've ever seen it sag is to about 90V @
400-450A.
Either you have one or more batteries 'bad', or there may be something
lacking about the way you are charging your batteries. Can you provide
details of how you are charging them?
As to the closeness of the voltages, the closer the better, but go ahead
and measure them (ideally at the end of discharge after letting them sit
no-load for 30min or so to endure the voltages have stabilised), and
post the values here for comment. Probably worth including notes
indicating which batteries are in which box, and if that box is enclosed
or open, etc., since temperature differences between batteries in open
racks under the hood and those in closed boxes under the rear seat, etc.
can affect the voltage spread.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
Actually 2 questions. Are there any EV'Rs in the Daytona FL area?
Sure; I'm in Orlando. Oviedo, actually; about 45 minutes from Daytona.
I've got family living there.
Jude
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> There is no way you are going to hold 65 mph in a 914 with
> only 7.5kw. If you "pay attention to details" you might
> be able to get away with twice that...maybe.
You might be right that 7.5kW is not going to be possible, but I think
you're overly pessimistic with the "twice that...maybe" ;^>
Got any reliable sources for the actual power required by a 914 at those
sorts of speeds (50/55/60/65/70/etc)?
There are certainly enough 914 conversions out there that surely one of
their owners is on the list and could post actual E-Meter voltage and
current values (or better still, kWh consumed travelling X miles at
65mph)?
> Taking peukert and real, tested, performance of YTs into
> account, your range (80% DoD) at 65 mph will most likely
> be somewhere around 35 miles.
The 120min reserve capacity of a YT is a real, tested performance data
point for YTs, and is one that they meet (confirmed by tests I have
personally performed). It already takes Peukert into account.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look at these products and based on what you see, what do you foresee
on the future price for items such as this and also, the reality and
likelihood of us owning products like this?
Is THIS the beginnings of an off the shelf universal BMS system?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=911
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=912
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=910
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=909
Where do we go from here? What is to be done next? Do items like
this do anything for us; or are we no further along now then we were?
If this item is nothing; then what will be something and when will
that be and what will it be?
I see a little PCB and silicon in those pics. How is the imagined BMS
in your head different then these? How is it better? What does it do
different? How much does it cost and is it cheaper? How will a BMS
ever be cheaper? What components are currently not available now that
need to be? How will any prices go down? You know what component
prices are. Have prices for any components ever gone down? When and
how much?
Is BMS a reality or a farce? Will or will not happen in our lifetimes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This number gets thrown around a lot and doesn't get any further then
talk or expensive electric super cars.
6,000 batteries looks to be more then $20,000
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=555
I bet it would get decent range though? (I'd hope!)
How much range can a few hundred dollars buy? A few thousand dollars?
Could the system be so one could start off with a 10 mile range Li
pack and later add to it to make it do 20 miles then 30 or 40?
How many batteries needed for a 20 or 40 mile range?
94 batteries in series times 3.7V each = 347.8V Just what the Zilla
likes... How many miles on that little baby 9.4 lb pack?
I could run 4 or 5 of those packs(to start).. Not much weight or
space, about the price of lead.. how much range though? (the $1600
question..)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
That is the wonderful thing of an EV, you can upgrade
easily if you think about it at beforehand.
Not sure if a cheap => expensive motor is a good path,
as the adaptor is always expensive (for most of us)
and a different motor usually requires a different adaptor.
Another way of starting at lower cost is to design and
build battery spaces for your final pack (higher voltage)
but start with less batteries to keep the cost and speed
down, also reducing the "jerk" of a simple contactor to
control motor on/off.
There are schemes to have more than one step on the
contactor controller, so it does act somewhat as a controller
but that requires more than one contactor.
If you keep the manual transmission, you can live with a
low voltage pack by using the lower gears and have a low
speed vehicle, avoiding the large "stall" currents that
may damage the motor and batteries when switching from
"off" to "on" and shorting the motor across the batteries.
Modern controllers have a "current transforming" capability
due to their Pulse Width Modulation, which can send
hundreds of amps through the motor on take-off, while only
drawing tens of amps from the batteries as long as the
motor voltage is low. This is much easier on the
batteries, so when using a contactor you do not have
this advantage and you need to make sure the motor gets
up to speed quickly and the amps are not that high.
This is accomplished by using low (first) gear on the
take-off (and not as Wilderness Ev claims by using your
clutch, or you will burn up your clutch quickly) and
by having a low voltage pack to start with.
If you need the range and/or prefer to buy all batteries
from the get go, then you can create half pack voltage
by making two parallel strings and doubling the amps
that your pack can deliver.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jim Fritz
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 4:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
Thanks for all the responses to the specific kit, but can anyone speak to
question 2? I'm wondering if I can do the conversion in 2 steps, good
battery and motor with a contactor only now and a good controller later.
Possibly 3 steps, good battery, cheap motor, contactor, and then upgrading
motor and eventually adding a controller. I would be quite happy with a
vehicle I can go 20-30 miles at 35-45mph. Just shopping and errands in a
smallish town, besides as I understand it my range would be much better at
an average of 25mph.
Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: After a link to this companies
number 2 kit a few days ago, I started looking at their number 1 kit and
contemplating an experiment. As I don't have a lot of experience in this
field I thought I would bounce a couple of them of the list. The URL of the
item in question:
http://www.e-volks.com/about1.html
My questions are (at least the first of a few):
1.) Doesn't this motor look a lot like an aircraft generator? Everytime I
see one mentioned somewhere it looks exactly like this.
2.) What would it be like driving a conversion with a contactor instead of
a controller? The description says it is not jerky because of the tranny and
clutch. However when I built my homemade fun mobile (seriously hacked
ex-industrial robot) I started out with a contactor only. When I put a full
battery pack in and regeared it a little, pushing the "GO" switch was
followed by trying to hold onto a run-away train. I guess that's what you
get when you try to make a machine built to move around 20,000 pounds go
fast with only 400 pounds. BTW this contraption is why I am gearing up for
my first conversion.
3.) I am looking to only get NEV performance. 30 total miles per charge. 45
mph max. I also am looking to do this on a limited income.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated, and answered with only more
questions I am sure to say.
---
Thanks,
Jim
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done
faster.
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rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Plumer wrote:
Has anyone implemented a cruise control? Just curious if it is
possible, and how
people have done it in the past.
i would be interested in this too. i mostly do town driving 5-15 miles
but i still use my cruise a lot on my ICE, a honda element. i just set
it at 35 mph around town and let the crazies drive around me. i also
notice that i get better mileage that way. the computer holds the pedal
steadier than me :)
anyone?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We already have people on this list developing lithium BMS for higher
amperage EV needs today. Victor should have something out soon. Also, I
think John L has or is developing something.
I sure like these little modules, at $45 for the 10 cell unit, needing 9
units for 312V, approx $500 for BMS is pretty good. Too bad the max current
draw is only 27A.
I wonder, it the circuit can be modified easily to handle 300A or even
1000A max draw?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: October 9, 2006 7:49 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: What is the future of Li BMS?
Look at these products and based on what you see, what do you foresee on the
future price for items such as this and also, the reality and likelihood of
us owning products like this?
Is THIS the beginnings of an off the shelf universal BMS system?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=911
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=912
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=910
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=909
Where do we go from here? What is to be done next? Do items like this do
anything for us; or are we no further along now then we were?
If this item is nothing; then what will be something and when will that be
and what will it be?
I see a little PCB and silicon in those pics. How is the imagined BMS in
your head different then these? How is it better? What does it do
different? How much does it cost and is it cheaper? How will a BMS ever be
cheaper? What components are currently not available now that need to be?
How will any prices go down? You know what component prices are. Have
prices for any components ever gone down? When and how much?
Is BMS a reality or a farce? Will or will not happen in our lifetimes?
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Mike Phillips wrote:
For the participants in any open source project, the price is time and
the parts are supplied at cost. So being part of a group like that
makes the price far cheaper than a retail outlet. It's a fair amount
of work. Finding people who can actually contribute is another thing.
The OSMC project is a great start, but it's still rather expensive, and
was built for a different purpose. It doesn't have features one would
normally associate with even a simple EV PWM controller. For example, no
current limiting, no heatsinking, no overtemperature sensing, no
undervoltage protection, no open or shorted pot detection, etc.
Here's a simple PWM controller design that does include these features:
http://austinev.org/evalbum/tech/petroson.pdf#search=%22petrosonics%20controller%22
It too is undersized for an on-the-road EV, but it is straightforward to
increase its voltage and current limits (mainly more and higher-rated
MOSFETS, freewheel diodes, and capacitors). Something like this may make
a better basis for an "open source" motor controller (though there is no
microcomputer, thus no source code).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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> 1.) Doesn't this motor look a lot like an aircraft generator?
Everytime I see one mentioned somewhere it looks exactly like this.
>
It is a starter/generator, the same one sold here:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006100922465847&item=6-936
> 2.) What would it be like driving a conversion with a contactor
instead of a controller? The description says it is not jerky because
of the tranny and clutch. However when I built my homemade fun mobile
(seriously hacked ex-industrial robot) I started out with a contactor
only. When I put a full battery pack in and regeared it a little,
pushing the "GO" switch was followed by trying to hold onto a run-away
train. I guess that's what you get when you try to make a machine
built to move around 20,000 pounds go fast with only 400 pounds. BTW
this contraption is why I am gearing up for my first conversion.
>
Can't speak to this, but I'd prefer to use an accelerator pedal and
only use the gearshift for different speed "ranges". $299 for a
48v/700A controller makes using only one contactor seem worth it:
http://www.logisystemscontrollers.com/logisystems_002.htm
> 3.) I am looking to only get NEV performance. 30 total miles per
charge. 45 mph max. I also am looking to do this on a limited income.
>
> Any comments would be greatly appreciated, and answered with only
more questions I am sure to say.
>
While this kit may do what you want, this seller is not the most
dependable; visit http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/
and put e-volks in the search slot just below the dude hugging his
now-dead EV1.
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Don't bad mouth rattle can paint jobs. I've painted a jillion things
with rattle cans including two cars. Almost anything looks better
with fresh paint. If a rattle can paint job only lasts a year or two,
it's easy and cheap to touch up or repaint.
On Oct 5, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
That just made me crack up so hard 8^ ) (what so if I say jump off
a cliff, hehe) Here's a little secret... Shhhh... The Siamese8 is just
a rattle can paint job and it's not even hi-temp paint. I actually
brought the housings down to the Wayland juice bar last year and John
painted them himself with his color choice right there in his driveway
outside the garage, so if your motors are not overheating even regular
old rattlecan will work just fine and there's a lot more colors to
choose from, 8^P
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Looks like they might beat Firefly to the market?
http://www.pwtcbattery.com/technology/
Anyone who's done this before want to call for specs/pricing/availability?
"call the company directly at 713-621-4310"
http://www.pwtcbattery.com/press/08-15-06_pilotplantRVC.php..htm
Will these batteries like to handle short circuit discharge loads or
instead only want to put out ~400 amps?
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/contact.html
Is there any real potential in these batteries? What do they offer?
Are both these batteries a reality for 2007?
How about that awesome aluminum based battery? Any potential in
it(discharge power)?
http://www.europositron.com/en/img/theoretic.gif
http://www.europositron.com/
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> With either the 8v or 12v batterys you are toasting them driving to 60
> miles. That's way too deep of a depth of discharge to do more than
> once. Especially if Ford designed it.
>
> Mike
>
>
Not at all - on flat ground without braking (regen or otherwise),
60mph for 60mi just gets you to the yellow warning light (about to hit
80%DOD) with the Delphi pack. I can't use my own commute for
camparison because I have headwinds and plenty of hills, but I still
get 55-60mi until the dreaded yellow light if I keep it below 60mph
(wonder if a tonneau cover will make any difference).
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I regularly see ads for EVs wanted.
In case you are interested in building/converting
and in this case if you are in the Sacramento
area - check this one out.
About once a week there is an EV wanted ad,
in case you think there is no interest in
the greater SF Bay Area...
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/wan/217111661.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
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http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=98835414-1D35-4DE6-9A2F-BF846BCCA9C7&f=&fg=copy
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Has ZAP! a new outfit in Concord?
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/car/216566186.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/car/216563578.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
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Hi all,
John's and Victor's Li-BMS systems monitor the voltage and bleed off
excess charge current.
They attach (in parallel) to an already connected battery string.
The circuit boards in these links actually connect the batteries into a
series string.
All current runs through the circuit itself, allowing the circuit to
monitor the current as well as voltage, and to disconnect the batteries
in fault situations.
This is fine for relatively low currents (like in R/C models or bikes or
scooters) but doesn't scale up too easily without redesigning how the
whole thing works (i.e. where the current flows).
These systems are cheap because of mass production.
(I wonder how big the R/C market is in terms of total KWh of batteries
compared to the EV market...)
There are chips like http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2931
that do the bulk of the work for you - just wrap a circuit around them
to plug everything in to.
Once again - the problem is that these chips expect the current to be
flowing through them to do their job, so they only handle low currents.
I'm sure there's a way of building a circuit based on such a chip that
used a current divider so that the chip only saw a tiny fraction of the
real current, enabling it to handle EV currents and still give useful
voltage info and some overcharge regulation (through another heat-sunk
part of the circuit).
(I'm an electronics noob, so don't ask me how to do it :-)
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2006 1:43 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: What is the future of Li BMS?
>
>
>
> We already have people on this list developing lithium BMS for higher
> amperage EV needs today. Victor should have something out
> soon. Also, I
> think John L has or is developing something.
>
> I sure like these little modules, at $45 for the 10 cell
> unit, needing 9
> units for 312V, approx $500 for BMS is pretty good. Too bad
> the max current
> draw is only 27A.
>
> I wonder, it the circuit can be modified easily to handle
> 300A or even
> 1000A max draw?
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: October 9, 2006 7:49 PM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: What is the future of Li BMS?
>
> Look at these products and based on what you see, what do you
> foresee on the
> future price for items such as this and also, the reality and
> likelihood of
> us owning products like this?
>
> Is THIS the beginnings of an off the shelf universal BMS system?
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=911
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=912
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=910
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=909
>
> Where do we go from here? What is to be done next? Do items
> like this do
> anything for us; or are we no further along now then we were?
> If this item is nothing; then what will be something and when
> will that be
> and what will it be?
>
> I see a little PCB and silicon in those pics. How is the
> imagined BMS in
> your head different then these? How is it better? What does it do
> different? How much does it cost and is it cheaper? How
> will a BMS ever be
> cheaper? What components are currently not available now
> that need to be?
> How will any prices go down? You know what component prices
> are. Have
> prices for any components ever gone down? When and how much?
>
> Is BMS a reality or a farce? Will or will not happen in our
> lifetimes?
>
>
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Hi all,
Sydney AEVA is holding an Open Day.
344 Annangrove Road, Rouse Hill, NSW
SUNDAY 12th November 2006
10am - 3pm
There will be plenty of EVs from scooters to road registered cars to
see.
We will have EV suppliers, builders and owners to talk to.
For more details http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com/opendaynovember2006
Mark
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Cor van de Water wrote:
I regularly see ads for EVs wanted.
The situation still remains: $$$
A vehicle; their vehicle or another vehicle, which vehicle? $$$
One of Rudmans chargers in it? One of Otmar's controllers? You know
those prices... Odd how the motor is the cheapest part of the whole
deal.
What kind of batteries do they want? AGM's? You want $75/each regs
to go with those batts?
I might be able to sell them an EV for $16,000.... (Maybe!)
I bet they are thinking more along the lines of $1500 though...
Fewer components in an EV for sure; but much more expensive components...
Consider the prices of the components inside a Zilla or Manzanita
Micro. I don't see how even 10 years from now these items could cost
any less then they do now? I could see the motors costing even less
though somehow... Batteries too..
So the contactor "controller" and bad boy charger are dead end roads?
All these years and just items that can't be perfected or improved
upon? An inverter likely to cost even MORE then a big Zilla and an AC
motor that might not even exist?
4, 11" motors on a single shaft, 2 big Z2K's, and 2 3500V caps.... It
might just run the number?
Run motors on a single shaft from the rear dif past the front bumper
with a big Zilla on each motor and a 3500V cap for each(2 caps each?)?
Maybe in a race, a single high rpm AC motor/inverter with the 3500V
cap would beat all that?
How will we get the 3500V cap to place nice with the Zilla?
Zilla says "Me no like 3500. Me only like 348" ;) ;) (I'm just
joshing with you Ot!)
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