EV Digest 5995
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cruise control?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Cruise control?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Lighter Porsche 914
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV2 GM TV spot.
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) GoWheel.com and Lithium
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Request Porsche 914 power requirements at 65mph
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Join evdl
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: EV2 GM TV spot.
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: lithium cells high power long lasting
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Lighter Porsche 914
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Cruise control?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Cruise control?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Supercapacitor Data
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV2 GM TV spot.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Supercapacitor Data
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Lighter Porsche 914
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What about a cars original cruise control. It monitors speed and adjust pedal
position. Couldn't
that work completely independant of motive force (ICE vs. electric motor)? Some
are vacuum
actuated, some electric.
Dave Cover
--- Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joe Plumer wrote:
> > Has anyone implemented a cruise control? Just curious if it is
> > possible, and how
> > people have done it in the past.
>
>
> i would be interested in this too. i mostly do town driving 5-15 miles
> but i still use my cruise a lot on my ICE, a honda element. i just set
> it at 35 mph around town and let the crazies drive around me. i also
> notice that i get better mileage that way. the computer holds the pedal
> steadier than me :)
>
> anyone?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it would work fine. You would have to figure out how it gets
its signals. Some cruise controls talk to the cars ICE computer for MAP
sensor data (engine load) and RPM. Most nowadays use the speed sensor
input to get the speed data.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:13
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cruise control?
What about a cars original cruise control. It monitors speed and adjust
pedal position. Couldn't that work completely independant of motive
force (ICE vs. electric motor)? Some are vacuum actuated, some electric.
Dave Cover
--- Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joe Plumer wrote:
> > Has anyone implemented a cruise control? Just curious if it is
> > possible, and how people have done it in the past.
>
>
> i would be interested in this too. i mostly do town driving 5-15
> miles but i still use my cruise a lot on my ICE, a honda element. i
> just set it at 35 mph around town and let the crazies drive around me.
> i also notice that i get better mileage that way. the computer holds
> the pedal steadier than me :)
>
> anyone?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I was curious from the Porsche conversion guru's how to lighten up a Porsche
914. I'm looking at buying one and it has the usual belly pan rust so I'll
need to replace that probably from auto atlanitc.com. Does anyone have
recommendations on fiberglas etc body parts replacements that would make it
lighter. It weighs 2100lbs start weight and the Ghia is 1900 lbs but the
Porsche looks like a more fun car with the removeable roof so I'll probably buy
that tomorrow.
Thanks,
Mark
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why does that remind me of the Test Track ride at DisneyWorld?
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://homepage.mac.com/ptiano/iMovieTheater20.html Is this old news? I
> never saw this before. Click on GM TV Spot. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got spammed by GoWheel.com who claim that they will be selling EV
sized batteries from A123 with BMS within a couple of weeks.
They gave no capacity specs or prices in their email nor on their web site.
So A123 is really available? At what cost? Maybe someone in more of an OEM
position can get quantities (Victor?) I wonder what kind of BMS?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome, Nate.
I am a lurker on several forums including buggies
unlimited, because you never know what tidbit of info
will help with a conversion. I have also recommended
your build in several discussion when the need arises.
So whether you knew it or not some of us love what
you do.
Lyle
--- England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I would first like to thank all the folks who have
> helped with EV
> questions over the years. I used a golf cart as a
> platform to teach
> myself basic EV principals without the full price up
> front. If I could
> not make a golf cart work there was no sense in me
> trying a full size
> EV. I am still learning but the golf cart has taught
> me more than I
> could have imagined. I did not talk much about this
> project as most EV
> folks did not seem to like the idea of golf carts in
> the same list with
> EVs. I can understand not wanting to be associated
> with a little 15 MPH
> vehicle myself.
>
> The golf cart was entered into a competition for
> golf carts last June in
> Richmond, Kentucky, I wanted to see if all these
> years of number
> crunching and testing was teaching me anything or
> did I just think I was
> doing good. Four out of five trophies later I
> figured maybe I was doing
> something right. My golf cart had the quickest 1/8
> mile time of any cart
> there, gas or electric. I beat a modified 1000cc gas
> rig also. The event
> obviously is not held for environmental reasons but
> for folks who like
> playing with golf carts. What happened was you had a
> bunch of folks that
> normally had no exposure to the power of electric
> vehicles above a 48
> volt golf cart see what kind of performance electric
> is capable of. I
> even had some die-hard ICE folks come over and
> congratulate me on my
> wins... this did not mean they were ready to quit
> playing with their gas
> rigs just yet but they will never forget that day
> and what the power of
> an electric golf cart did. The kids were asking
> questions like crazy and
> thought it was very cool, I had many questions about
> making an electric
> racecar. I pointed out that NEDRA has already been
> formed and gave them
> web sites to vist.
>
> So why am I printing this now? The president of the
> electric auto
> association in Phoenix saw my work on a golf cart
> forum and asked me to
> give a brief overview at their October meeting last
> Saturday. If EV
> folks want to periodically hear about an electric
> golf cart doing 8.7
> seconds in the 1/8 mile and catching the attention
> of many non-EV folks
> I will be happy to share. I promise I will not talk
> golf carts but on
> rare occasions here.
>
> Specs:
> 1986 Club Car
> 120 volt battery pack
> Electronic control
> Golf cart motor but not stock.
> 27" Mud tires on 12" rims
> Rear gear 12.44:1
> Top speed 50 MPH.... yes that little 6" motor was
> close to 8000 RPM.
>
> Thanks,
> Nate
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
figured I'd change the subject line to grab some folks attention.
Any 914 pilots out there that can run a quick test and tell us what the
power requirements are on flat level ground with no wind?
Preferably an average power requirement taken going both directions on the
same stretch or road.
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> There is no way you are going to hold 65 mph in a 914 with
>> only 7.5kw. If you "pay attention to details" you might
>> be able to get away with twice that...maybe.
>
> You might be right that 7.5kW is not going to be possible, but I think
> you're overly pessimistic with the "twice that...maybe" ;^>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> There is no way you are going to hold 65 mph in a 914 with
>> only 7.5kw. If you "pay attention to details" you might
>> be able to get away with twice that...maybe.
>
> You might be right that 7.5kW is not going to be possible, but I think
> you're overly pessimistic with the "twice that...maybe" ;^>
Hmm, I thought I was being optimistic. My 914 still runs on dead dino's,
but there are several in the evalbulm that use either YTs or Orbitals.
Otmar's uses 20 Orbitals (by all reports, Orbitals are slightly better
than YTs) He claims a range of only 22 miles. But then we are taling
Otmar here, and he doesn't list a speed or DoD.
John Littauer claims a range of 63 miles (theoretical) max, since he
states it's "theoretical" I assume he means to 100% DoD. He is running 24
YTs.
All this is circumstantial though. I'm sure someone will post their power
req's at 65mph. I'm betting that on flat level ground, with no wind, it's
at LEAST 15kw to go 65mph.
While 914's have a very small frontal area, their Cd sucks.
>
> Got any reliable sources for the actual power required by a 914 at those
> sorts of speeds (50/55/60/65/70/etc)?
>
> There are certainly enough 914 conversions out there that surely one of
> their owners is on the list and could post actual E-Meter voltage and
> current values (or better still, kWh consumed travelling X miles at
> 65mph)?
>
>> Taking peukert and real, tested, performance of YTs into
>> account, your range (80% DoD) at 65 mph will most likely
>> be somewhere around 35 miles.
>
> The 120min reserve capacity of a YT is a real, tested performance data
> point for YTs, and is one that they meet (confirmed by tests I have
> personally performed). It already takes Peukert into account.
See above for real world range estimates with YTs and Orbitals.
The 120min (C/2) capacity is meaningless if you are draining them at more
than 1C
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Oct 2006 at 13:08, Chuck Alldrin wrote:
> Please allow me to join the group again.
Chuck, all you have to do is subscribe - and if you were able to post this
note, you've subscribed. So welcome!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Reaches brilliant conclusion, runs from building, hops into his EV (complete
> with electric whine) and goes out to buy a GM Hummer.
I wonder how many calls GM have gotten asking where to buy one of those
little electric cars.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are they going to crush that one as well?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:29
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV2 GM TV spot.
Why does that remind me of the Test Track ride at DisneyWorld?
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://homepage.mac.com/ptiano/iMovieTheater20.html Is this old news?
> I never saw this before. Click on GM TV Spot. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lee,
Any news on the emeter companion?
Still working on it. I ran into a problem with the little DC/DC
converter. The one I initially selected turned out to have poor
isolation. In fact *all* of the small commercial units do! To get
guaranteed isolation requires a larger UL-listed part -- and all the
ones I could find were too big to fit.
So, I designed my own. The key to isolation is the transformer. I've
been testing and evaluating them.
For me, the Companion is part of a 3-board set. I am also designing a
microcontroller board, and a display board. The goal is to hide the
E-meter somewhere, and have my own dash display that simultaneously
shows volts, amps, amphours, and state of charge. The display board is
finished, and I'm working on the micro board while I wait for the
transformers to come in to test.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:32 PM 10/9/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That is why I posted this has anyone contacted them about buying them? I did
try several times with A123.
So I take it you have contacted SAFT and they are not selling the 45 Ah cell
and module?
Subject: FW: Pricing for NHP 5-680 NiMh
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Wikse, Carl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
John, sorry we cannot just sell you these on their own. A total system
would have to be engineered and quite frankly, we don't have the support
staff to work on low volume requirements.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was just discussed in the 914 google group.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/914ev
Here's Some links to fiberglass replacement parts (mostly for racing).
http://www.ultimate914.com/MOTORSPORTS_WE/Price_Listx.html
http://www.gt-racing.com/GTR914.pdf?PHPSESSID=6fb71ba88dd0cba848667eb47a64b6
d0 (fiber or carbon!)
They are a little on the pricey side, but you can get replacement hoods,
trunk lids, rear quarter panels, door skins.
Remember that in addition to the cost of the parts, you'll have to add
installation, finishing and painting (unless you do it all yourself).
I'm not sure what the steel parts weigh, but a 12 lb hood, 11 lb trunk lid
is sure to cut off some weight. I'm just not sure how much.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Lighter Porsche 914
Hi,
I was curious from the Porsche conversion guru's how to lighten up a
Porsche 914. I'm looking at buying one and it has the usual belly pan rust
so I'll need to replace that probably from auto atlanitc.com. Does anyone
have recommendations on fiberglas etc body parts replacements that would
make it lighter. It weighs 2100lbs start weight and the Ghia is 1900 lbs
but the Porsche looks like a more fun car with the removeable roof so I'll
probably buy that tomorrow.
Thanks,
Mark
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:31:55 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>On Monday Night Football they used a Citicar in the Hummer commercial.
>Not in the most positive light. But then again it was a GM commercial.
>
>Mike
>
What about the commercial BRAGGING about the H3 that gets 20 miles
per gallon on the highway.
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cruise control may work fine, if you are driving on dead level smooth
streets. Driving on rough roller coaster streets, my battery amperes
constantly changes from 30 to 100 amps if I put it on IDLE CONTROL which I
can ramp up to any speed I want with a on dash control switch.
So, I do not use it 95 percent of the time. I find that I can control the
maximum ampere to about 50 amps using the accelerator peddle.
For constant ampere, but may change the speed of the EV, a current and
voltage measure relays could control a constant amperes. The ones we use in
our electrical work, is from Telemecanique.
The on dash control I design, is a three position selector switch can select
ON-OFF-IDLE circuits. In the the IDLE position, it switches in another 5
kohm pot in series with the existing accelerator pot. You then can adjust
this second pot to any speed you want, but the ampere and speed will not be
constant if you are approaching inclines.
If you want a constant ampere, than a motorize current control could change
the position of the idle or cruse pot.
The next problem I found, is that when I shut down, I some times forget to
turn this idle control circuit off, and when trying to starting up, the
controller will not start up, because the Zilla needs to have the pot to be
below a certain ohms value.
So, I need to have this circuit to auto return to a normal state before
startup.
Owning a EV, you are always testing, changing, modifying, updating and
improving something all the time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: Cruise control?
> What about a cars original cruise control. It monitors speed and adjust
> pedal position. Couldn't
> that work completely independant of motive force (ICE vs. electric motor)?
> Some are vacuum
> actuated, some electric.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Joe Plumer wrote:
> > > Has anyone implemented a cruise control? Just curious if it is
> > > possible, and how
> > > people have done it in the past.
> >
> >
> > i would be interested in this too. i mostly do town driving 5-15 miles
> > but i still use my cruise a lot on my ICE, a honda element. i just set
> > it at 35 mph around town and let the crazies drive around me. i also
> > notice that i get better mileage that way. the computer holds the pedal
> > steadier than me :)
> >
> > anyone?
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What about a cars original cruise control?
I haven't thought this through deeply, but wouldn't the car's original
cruise control have trouble slowing down the car when it needed to?
When the pedal is let up on an ICE car, engine breaking decreases the
vehicle's speed. But with an electric motor, the car wouldn't slow down
much at all. So when the car was on a slight downhill slope, for
example, I'd think it would pick up velocity and increase beyond the
desired speed. Seems like you'd need some type of mind regen to slow
down the car, like kicking in the original alternator and charging the
12V battery with it.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do we have to have the rs232 option to use your companion?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Lee,
> >
> > Any news on the emeter companion?
>
> Still working on it. I ran into a problem with the little DC/DC
> converter. The one I initially selected turned out to have poor
> isolation. In fact *all* of the small commercial units do! To get
> guaranteed isolation requires a larger UL-listed part -- and all the
> ones I could find were too big to fit.
>
> So, I designed my own. The key to isolation is the transformer. I've
> been testing and evaluating them.
>
> For me, the Companion is part of a 3-board set. I am also designing a
> microcontroller board, and a display board. The goal is to hide the
> E-meter somewhere, and have my own dash display that simultaneously
> shows volts, amps, amphours, and state of charge. The display board is
> finished, and I'm working on the micro board while I wait for the
> transformers to come in to test.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Roland,
Yea, this is a bit confusing. These specs differ from ESMA web site I just
looked at for 10EC303.
http://www.esma-cap.com/Products/Capacitor_modules/10EC303/?lang=English
I think that the 6000 F value is for one 16 volt module. Then when you put
13 in series for 220 volts, you end up with 460 F. This would give you the 7.5
MJ for the 13 module set. That's about 2 kilowatt-hours. Not real good for a
1000 pound energy storage system. But probably capable high power and fast
charge.
It is kind of hard telling what ESMA puts into these things. Usually called
an asymmetric electrochemical capacitor, they use one carbon electrode and one
made of nickel, with KOH. Behavior is somewhat like a cross between battery
and capacitor. But, battery, capacitor, or something inbetween, energies
always add. So, use energy calculations to double check.
Also, noticed in my last post an error, cell voltage is 1.5, not 1.2.
Jeff
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Jeff,
Here is what the spec sheet lists for a 10 cell supercapacitor No. 10EC303:
Operating voltage window, V 16-8
Maximum voltage, V 17
Minimum OCV, V 9
Capacitance,F (13 modules) 6000
Capacitance,F (Ah)(per cell) 460 (15)
Maximum power, kW 32 K
Maximum power, kW (13 modules) 420 K
Energy stored, kJ 576
Energy stored, MJ (13 modules) 7.5
Therefore according to this specs., 13 x 460 = 5980 or about 6000.
I know that standard capacitors in series don't add there values, but these
capacitors are built like batteries with a electrolyte, so aren't they more
like a battery type capacitor?
Why would they spec the cell at 460 F and the 13 of these at about 6000 F
and 130 cells at 1.7 volts each at 220 volts?
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Major"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
> Hello Roland,
>
> I noticed a couple of questionable remarks.
>
> "cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each" This does not sound correct.
> Maybe ampere-minutes. Even at that, still high.
>
> "A 17 volt module has a capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH
> each" I don't think so. Capacitors in series have the capacitance of
> each divided by the number of units, not multiplied. 10 cells at 460 F
> each in series would give 46 F for the series string. Also, AH ratings do
> not add for units in series. Just like AH do not add for batteries in
> series.
>
> I have used ESMA product. In a hybrid, not EV. There a variety of
> types from ESMA. I used modules rated at 45 volts, 90 F and 68
> kilojoules. Weighed 17.7 Kg each. Each module consisted of 30 cells
> rated at 1.2 volts.
>
> When comparing capacitors to batteries, best to use energy. 1 joule
> equals 1 watt-second. Or 1 kilowatt-hour equals 3,600,000 joules.
>
> Super or Ultra Capacitor. Doesn't make any difference. No industry
> standard. Most correctly termed "electrochemical capacitor".
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Page-Echols"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
>
>
> > I'm kind of amazed at the price of even current ultra caps to get
> > even 1/2 of the range. Do capacitors have a charge cycle rating?
> > What are the issues that are going to come up with using these
> > instead of batteries? They are only going to get cheaper and better
> > suited for something like this.
> >
> > Ian
>
> Hello Ian,
>
> These are super capacitors, not ultra-capacitors.
>
> These units come in a 10-cell modules connected in series. At about 1.7
> volts per cell this becomes 17 volts per modules. Something like a 8D
> battery with post.
>
> The dimension of a 10 cell module is 20 inches long by 10 inches high to
> the
> top of the post and 7 inches wide that weighs 75 lbs.
>
> A 220 volt pack would take 13 of these modules that would weigh 975 lbs.
> Less than my thirty 72 lbs 6 volts that weigh 2160 lbs.
>
> These 13 modules will fit in the same area of my 180 volt pack except they
> would be 220 volt.
>
> Unlike batteries of a 180 volt pack, which is charge to 6.68 volts per
> battery or 200 volts total and drops right to 192 volts, are normally
> discharge to 50% DOD or 179 volts, the super capacitors maximum voltage
> starts out at 220 volts and drops right to 210 volts at load.
>
> The voltage window is 210 to 105 volts with a maximum power of 420 KW or
> about 32 KW per 17 volt module with a voltage window of 16-8 volts.
>
> Each capacitor cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each. A 17 volt module has
> a
> capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH each.
>
> Operating window per 17 volt module is from 16 to 8 volts. Have a internal
> Ohmic reistance of 2 mOhms.
>
> Operating temperture is -50 to +70 C.
>
> These can be charge with any ampere available up to the maximum voltage of
> the pack. The 10 ton buses have a loop range of about 10 miles and they
> charge them with 300 amps for a 5 to 10 minute charge.
>
> The Cycle Life is about 500,000 cycles.
>
> The estimate cost is $300.00 per cell.
> $3000.00 per 10 cell module.
> $39,000.00 for 13 modules.
>
> Data from: http://www.esma-cap.com/about/?lang=English
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
> Business.
>
>
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use Quicktime alot but all I got was the sound track.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/ptiano/iMovieTheater20.html Is this old
news? I
> never saw this before. Click on GM TV Spot. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
The spec sheet list this pack of 13 each 10 cell units as 420 KW. ESMA
said's that there are two types of supercapacitors, one for EV's and one for
hybrids.
Anyway, I don't need any battery systems for another 5 years for my EV.
Maybe by that time, there will be magnetic motors with auto changing rotor
poles that the Liverpool Labs. are testing at this time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
> Hello Roland,
>
> Yea, this is a bit confusing. These specs differ from ESMA web site I
> just looked at for 10EC303.
> http://www.esma-cap.com/Products/Capacitor_modules/10EC303/?lang=English
>
> I think that the 6000 F value is for one 16 volt module. Then when you
> put 13 in series for 220 volts, you end up with 460 F. This would give
> you the 7.5 MJ for the 13 module set. That's about 2 kilowatt-hours. Not
> real good for a 1000 pound energy storage system. But probably capable
> high power and fast charge.
>
> It is kind of hard telling what ESMA puts into these things. Usually
> called an asymmetric electrochemical capacitor, they use one carbon
> electrode and one made of nickel, with KOH. Behavior is somewhat like a
> cross between battery and capacitor. But, battery, capacitor, or
> something inbetween, energies always add. So, use energy calculations to
> double check.
>
> Also, noticed in my last post an error, cell voltage is 1.5, not 1.2.
>
> Jeff
>
> Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Jeff,
>
> Here is what the spec sheet lists for a 10 cell supercapacitor No.
> 10EC303:
>
> Operating voltage window, V 16-8
> Maximum voltage, V 17
> Minimum OCV, V 9
> Capacitance,F (13 modules) 6000
> Capacitance,F (Ah)(per cell) 460 (15)
> Maximum power, kW 32 K
> Maximum power, kW (13 modules) 420 K
> Energy stored, kJ 576
> Energy stored, MJ (13 modules) 7.5
>
> Therefore according to this specs., 13 x 460 = 5980 or about 6000.
>
> I know that standard capacitors in series don't add there values, but
> these
> capacitors are built like batteries with a electrolyte, so aren't they
> more
> like a battery type capacitor?
>
> Why would they spec the cell at 460 F and the 13 of these at about 6000 F
> and 130 cells at 1.7 volts each at 220 volts?
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Major"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 8:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
>
>
> > Hello Roland,
> >
> > I noticed a couple of questionable remarks.
> >
> > "cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each" This does not sound correct.
> > Maybe ampere-minutes. Even at that, still high.
> >
> > "A 17 volt module has a capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH
> > each" I don't think so. Capacitors in series have the capacitance of
> > each divided by the number of units, not multiplied. 10 cells at 460 F
> > each in series would give 46 F for the series string. Also, AH ratings
> > do
> > not add for units in series. Just like AH do not add for batteries in
> > series.
> >
> > I have used ESMA product. In a hybrid, not EV. There a variety of
> > types from ESMA. I used modules rated at 45 volts, 90 F and 68
> > kilojoules. Weighed 17.7 Kg each. Each module consisted of 30 cells
> > rated at 1.2 volts.
> >
> > When comparing capacitors to batteries, best to use energy. 1 joule
> > equals 1 watt-second. Or 1 kilowatt-hour equals 3,600,000 joules.
> >
> > Super or Ultra Capacitor. Doesn't make any difference. No industry
> > standard. Most correctly termed "electrochemical capacitor".
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ian Page-Echols"
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 1:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
> >
> >
> > > I'm kind of amazed at the price of even current ultra caps to get
> > > even 1/2 of the range. Do capacitors have a charge cycle rating?
> > > What are the issues that are going to come up with using these
> > > instead of batteries? They are only going to get cheaper and better
> > > suited for something like this.
> > >
> > > Ian
> >
> > Hello Ian,
> >
> > These are super capacitors, not ultra-capacitors.
> >
> > These units come in a 10-cell modules connected in series. At about 1.7
> > volts per cell this becomes 17 volts per modules. Something like a 8D
> > battery with post.
> >
> > The dimension of a 10 cell module is 20 inches long by 10 inches high to
> > the
> > top of the post and 7 inches wide that weighs 75 lbs.
> >
> > A 220 volt pack would take 13 of these modules that would weigh 975 lbs.
> > Less than my thirty 72 lbs 6 volts that weigh 2160 lbs.
> >
> > These 13 modules will fit in the same area of my 180 volt pack except
> > they
> > would be 220 volt.
> >
> > Unlike batteries of a 180 volt pack, which is charge to 6.68 volts per
> > battery or 200 volts total and drops right to 192 volts, are normally
> > discharge to 50% DOD or 179 volts, the super capacitors maximum voltage
> > starts out at 220 volts and drops right to 210 volts at load.
> >
> > The voltage window is 210 to 105 volts with a maximum power of 420 KW or
> > about 32 KW per 17 volt module with a voltage window of 16-8 volts.
> >
> > Each capacitor cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each. A 17 volt module
> > has
> > a
> > capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH each.
> >
> > Operating window per 17 volt module is from 16 to 8 volts. Have a
> > internal
> > Ohmic reistance of 2 mOhms.
> >
> > Operating temperture is -50 to +70 C.
> >
> > These can be charge with any ampere available up to the maximum voltage
> > of
> > the pack. The 10 ton buses have a loop range of about 10 miles and they
> > charge them with 300 amps for a 5 to 10 minute charge.
> >
> > The Cycle Life is about 500,000 cycles.
> >
> > The estimate cost is $300.00 per cell.
> > $3000.00 per 10 cell module.
> > $39,000.00 for 13 modules.
> >
> > Data from: http://www.esma-cap.com/about/?lang=English
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
> > Business.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done
> faster.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember a race car years ago that used a Toranado front end in the rear to
create a midengine setup. It would seem a simple approach. I'd be inclined to
use the transmission, and clutch, but I suppose you wouldn't have to. Junkyard
front end drive should be reasonable in cost.
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 2:20:32 AM
Subject: Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
Ryan,
Thank you for pointing this out, I didn't mean to downplay how critical this
step is or how difficult it may be, only to state that I felt comfortable with
the process after having mated several unusual engine/transmission combinations
in the past. I'm actually more concerned with how to accomplish my next project
where I want to do away with the transmission completely. I'd also like to do
away with the driveshaft, but have not figured out how to, or if I should even
try to. A motor is quite a lot of weight to be adding to the unsprung total,
besides hanging such a weight of the front of a rearend. Maybe the only way is
with a stationary differential and CV shafts. But even a junkyard IRS is
expensive. Possibly a modified IFS from a 4x4 truck. Anyone have thoughts on
this? Maybe I'll just live with the driveshaft, it just seems an incredible
waste of space.
Once I get the Eclipse stripped and weighed, I'll contact go-ev.com for
recommendation. Thank you.
---
Jim
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jim wrote:
> so the adapter plate actually might be the easiest part for me.
There is a little more too it then just the plate:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
> Also what does everyone think of oversizing the motor
> such that I could, in a pinch, do 70mph
Any of these will work, it just comes down to money and which one you
want or have enough room for or can support the weight of:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php
You might contact the manufacturer for a really solid recommendation
as to their performance:
http://www.go-ev.com/
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's been my experience that when you make iberglass thick enough, and
strong enough, to stand up to daily use it ends up being /heavier/ than
steel.
Take for example modern Corvette's, all that fiberglass and the vehicle
weighs over 3,000 lbs.
> This was just discussed in the 914 google group.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/914ev
>
>
>
> Here's Some links to fiberglass replacement parts (mostly for racing).
>
> http://www.ultimate914.com/MOTORSPORTS_WE/Price_Listx.html
>
> http://www.gt-racing.com/GTR914.pdf?PHPSESSID=6fb71ba88dd0cba848667eb47a64b6
> d0 (fiber or carbon!)
>
> They are a little on the pricey side, but you can get replacement hoods,
> trunk lids, rear quarter panels, door skins.
>
> Remember that in addition to the cost of the parts, you'll have to add
> installation, finishing and painting (unless you do it all yourself).
>
> I'm not sure what the steel parts weigh, but a 12 lb hood, 11 lb trunk lid
> is sure to cut off some weight. I'm just not sure how much.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:29 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Lighter Porsche 914
>
> Hi,
>
> I was curious from the Porsche conversion guru's how to lighten up a
> Porsche 914. I'm looking at buying one and it has the usual belly pan
> rust
> so I'll need to replace that probably from auto atlanitc.com. Does anyone
> have recommendations on fiberglas etc body parts replacements that would
> make it lighter. It weighs 2100lbs start weight and the Ghia is 1900 lbs
> but the Porsche looks like a more fun car with the removeable roof so I'll
> probably buy that tomorrow.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
> rates.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can see, if you can find a 1966 to 1969 Corvair and buy the whole car to
get out the Munci Corvette style transaxle and suspension system which came
in these cars during these years.
These units will pull 500 hp all day long which at that time were use in Cam
AM race cars use at Sebring and Riverside road racing.
Even though that the Corvair engine was a rear drive unit (engine rotated
CCW), this whole unit was swing around and CW V-8 engines was bolted
directed to it for a mid-engine car.
This is a coil spring type suspension, but you can add a Corvette bottom
upside down leaf spring to reduce the JOG (up and down motion). Can tighten
the leaf spring mounting bolts, so as to increase the load capacity.
A 914 shift lever was use to connected a single 3/4 inch aluminum tube that
had aluminum u-joints to the single shift lever on the transaxle. Today, you
could use a electric shift system.
If you retain the clutch, then you could used a 1:1 ratio hydraulic cable
drive unit, the same type that are use on some boats which are use to turn a
outboard motor.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
> I remember a race car years ago that used a Toranado front end in the rear
> to create a midengine setup. It would seem a simple approach. I'd be
> inclined to use the transmission, and clutch, but I suppose you wouldn't
> have to. Junkyard front end drive should be reasonable in cost.
> storm
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 2:20:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
>
> Ryan,
>
> Thank you for pointing this out, I didn't mean to downplay how critical
> this step is or how difficult it may be, only to state that I felt
> comfortable with the process after having mated several unusual
> engine/transmission combinations in the past. I'm actually more concerned
> with how to accomplish my next project where I want to do away with the
> transmission completely. I'd also like to do away with the driveshaft, but
> have not figured out how to, or if I should even try to. A motor is quite
> a lot of weight to be adding to the unsprung total, besides hanging such a
> weight of the front of a rearend. Maybe the only way is with a stationary
> differential and CV shafts. But even a junkyard IRS is expensive. Possibly
> a modified IFS from a 4x4 truck. Anyone have thoughts on this? Maybe I'll
> just live with the driveshaft, it just seems an incredible waste of space.
>
> Once I get the Eclipse stripped and weighed, I'll contact go-ev.com for
> recommendation. Thank you.
>
> ---
> Jim
>
> Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jim wrote:
>
> > so the adapter plate actually might be the easiest part for me.
>
> There is a little more too it then just the plate:
>
> http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
>
>
> > Also what does everyone think of oversizing the motor
> > such that I could, in a pinch, do 70mph
>
> Any of these will work, it just comes down to money and which one you
> want or have enough room for or can support the weight of:
>
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php
>
> You might contact the manufacturer for a really solid recommendation
> as to their performance:
>
> http://www.go-ev.com/
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
