EV Digest 5994
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Questions about this conversion kit.
by Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Mitsubishi EVs
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) 2 sites: Mitsubishi EV article and Podcast
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Electric Rangers get a new pack of 12vAGM. Bye Bye 8v batteries.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: What is the future of Li BMS?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: lithium cells high power long lasting
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electric Rangers get a new pack of 12vAGM. Bye Bye 8v batteries.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Firefly's competition
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Lithium Polymer batteries
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Questions about this conversion kit.
by Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Lithium Polymer batteries
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: What is the future of Li BMS?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: What is the future of Li BMS?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) EV2 GM TV spot.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What is the future of Li BMS?
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EV2 GM TV spot.
by "Lawrie, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_EV2_GM_TV_spot.?=
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy ( Michaela EV Disappointment)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for your response, it sounds like I may have been working in the
right direction. I have been rebuilt engines/transmissions/rear-ends, working
on/customizing/abusing cars and trucks my whole life. I also have quite a bit
of experience in both automotive and aerospace machine shops, so the adapter
plate actually might be the easiest part for me.
I was thinking of starting with a string of 12 6V, or 8V traction batteries
(golf cart), and splitting them up with DPDT contactors into 24/36/72V selected
with the go pedal, and keeping the 5 speed and clutch. Can a system like this
be implemented safely? Will it be grossly inefficient or just less than optimal.
I know I can drop the curb weight even further, after removing the ICE, by
some judicious cutting and trimming. Can someone point me to a guide that would
help me to selecting a motor once I have a new curb weight with the battery
pack and desired cargo weight? I already have an idea what I want in
performance and range, and my expectations or should I say my requirements are
quite low. I work from home and my wife works about 2.5 miles away, and even a
big errand day with many stores doesn't amount to much more than 30 maybe 40
miles.
Also what does everyone think of oversizing the motor such that I could, in a
pinch, do 70mph when I upgrade to a proper controller, possibly a Zilla, and a
larger battery pack? I maybe wrong but it seems that there really isn't a huge
difference in motor prices between what would accomplish both goals, but would
the larger motor be grossly inefficient or ineffective at the lower voltage and
speeds?
Or I guess the other question would be is what is the used market for EV
motors, i.e. will an ADC or Warp motor depreciate greatly once it's been
installed? I'm not asking for anyone to use a crystal ball, I won't hold it
against anyone if the day after I buy the motor someone brings an over-unity
motor to market.
I guess that'll do it for now, don't want to wear out my welcome before I even
become comfortable here. :-)
---
Thanks,
Jim
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Jim,
That is the wonderful thing of an EV, you can upgrade
easily if you think about it at beforehand.
Not sure if a cheap => expensive motor is a good path,
as the adaptor is always expensive (for most of us)
and a different motor usually requires a different adaptor.
Another way of starting at lower cost is to design and
build battery spaces for your final pack (higher voltage)
but start with less batteries to keep the cost and speed
down, also reducing the "jerk" of a simple contactor to
control motor on/off.
There are schemes to have more than one step on the
contactor controller, so it does act somewhat as a controller
but that requires more than one contactor.
If you keep the manual transmission, you can live with a
low voltage pack by using the lower gears and have a low
speed vehicle, avoiding the large "stall" currents that
may damage the motor and batteries when switching from
"off" to "on" and shorting the motor across the batteries.
Modern controllers have a "current transforming" capability
due to their Pulse Width Modulation, which can send
hundreds of amps through the motor on take-off, while only
drawing tens of amps from the batteries as long as the
motor voltage is low. This is much easier on the
batteries, so when using a contactor you do not have
this advantage and you need to make sure the motor gets
up to speed quickly and the amps are not that high.
This is accomplished by using low (first) gear on the
take-off (and not as Wilderness Ev claims by using your
clutch, or you will burn up your clutch quickly) and
by having a low voltage pack to start with.
If you need the range and/or prefer to buy all batteries
from the get go, then you can create half pack voltage
by making two parallel strings and doubling the amps
that your pack can deliver.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some interesting things to note from this article:
* They are planning to use wheel motors in all four wheels.
* Lithium batteries.
* The hybrid version is series hybrid - essentially just a generator.
* The fuel cell version still has a decent sized battery pack.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Curtis Muhlestein
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2006 8:51 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Mitsubishi EVs
>
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/report_mitsubis.html#more
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those that didn't see the commercial.....nerdy guy stationed at a remote
observatory sees asteroid will collide with the earth in 72 hours. Reaches
brilliant conclusion, runs from building, hops into his EV (complete with
electric whine) and goes out to buy a GM Hummer. Maybe the marketing guys that
sold this advertising idea to GM realized that this would resonate well with
the beaten down GM management who still believe that replacing the EV1 with
the
Hummer was the right choice.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
Board Member, Web Administration and Newsletter Editor
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Article/comments to read while listening to Podcast:
Article:
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/alternative-energy/mitsubishi-working-up-electric-car-for-us-market-206143.php
Podcast:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2403
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So you are saying that going to nearly 80% dod is ok? And that doesn't
toast the pack?
So what kind of life are owners getting from a pack on these Rangers?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Death to All Spammers"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > With either the 8v or 12v batterys you are toasting them driving to 60
> > miles. That's way too deep of a depth of discharge to do more than
> > once. Especially if Ford designed it.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
>
> Not at all - on flat ground without braking (regen or otherwise),
> 60mph for 60mi just gets you to the yellow warning light (about to hit
> 80%DOD) with the Delphi pack. I can't use my own commute for
> camparison because I have headwinds and plenty of hills, but I still
> get 55-60mi until the dreaded yellow light if I keep it below 60mph
> (wonder if a tonneau cover will make any difference).
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nathan, I am also a high performance golf cart enthusiast. I agree that
there is much to be learned from them. Thanks so much for sharing your
story. Here is a short video of my shop Yamaha G2 golf cart launching.
http://www.suckamps.com/images/build_team_vehicles/GolfCartWheelie.mov It
also runs 120 volts but on a stock 3.5 hp motor with a 900 amp controller. I
have another one, a 1974 Harley named "Amp Rage" with a 9 inch Advanced DC
with a junior dragster rear end and the old 14" rear wrinkle wall slicks off
"White Zombie. It is set up for a 2000 amp controller and 336 volts. In
addition it has a full roll cage. It is currently in storage and is a back
burner project.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 3:36 PM
Subject: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
I would first like to thank all the folks who have helped with EV
questions over the years. I used a golf cart as a platform to teach
myself basic EV principals without the full price up front. If I could
not make a golf cart work there was no sense in me trying a full size
EV. I am still learning but the golf cart has taught me more than I
could have imagined. I did not talk much about this project as most EV
folks did not seem to like the idea of golf carts in the same list with
EVs. I can understand not wanting to be associated with a little 15 MPH
vehicle myself.
The golf cart was entered into a competition for golf carts last June in
Richmond, Kentucky, I wanted to see if all these years of number
crunching and testing was teaching me anything or did I just think I was
doing good. Four out of five trophies later I figured maybe I was doing
something right. My golf cart had the quickest 1/8 mile time of any cart
there, gas or electric. I beat a modified 1000cc gas rig also. The event
obviously is not held for environmental reasons but for folks who like
playing with golf carts. What happened was you had a bunch of folks that
normally had no exposure to the power of electric vehicles above a 48
volt golf cart see what kind of performance electric is capable of. I
even had some die-hard ICE folks come over and congratulate me on my
wins... this did not mean they were ready to quit playing with their gas
rigs just yet but they will never forget that day and what the power of
an electric golf cart did. The kids were asking questions like crazy and
thought it was very cool, I had many questions about making an electric
racecar. I pointed out that NEDRA has already been formed and gave them
web sites to vist.
So why am I printing this now? The president of the electric auto
association in Phoenix saw my work on a golf cart forum and asked me to
give a brief overview at their October meeting last Saturday. If EV
folks want to periodically hear about an electric golf cart doing 8.7
seconds in the 1/8 mile and catching the attention of many non-EV folks
I will be happy to share. I promise I will not talk golf carts but on
rare occasions here.
Specs:
1986 Club Car
120 volt battery pack
Electronic control
Golf cart motor but not stock.
27" Mud tires on 12" rims
Rear gear 12.44:1
Top speed 50 MPH.... yes that little 6" motor was close to 8000 RPM.
Thanks,
Nate
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These boards have no balancing which is a major downside and probably
why they're so cheap. They seem like a rather simple comparator
circuit driving a mosfet in series with the string. The expensive part
comes when you want to monitor the cells to within 5mv and keep them
balanced. I also don't see any temperature sensing, which is a nice
feature to have when you're trying to prevent thermal runaway.
On 10/9/06, Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi all,
John's and Victor's Li-BMS systems monitor the voltage and bleed off
excess charge current.
They attach (in parallel) to an already connected battery string.
The circuit boards in these links actually connect the batteries into a
series string.
All current runs through the circuit itself, allowing the circuit to
monitor the current as well as voltage, and to disconnect the batteries
in fault situations.
This is fine for relatively low currents (like in R/C models or bikes or
scooters) but doesn't scale up too easily without redesigning how the
whole thing works (i.e. where the current flows).
These systems are cheap because of mass production.
(I wonder how big the R/C market is in terms of total KWh of batteries
compared to the EV market...)
There are chips like http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2931
that do the bulk of the work for you - just wrap a circuit around them
to plug everything in to.
Once again - the problem is that these chips expect the current to be
flowing through them to do their job, so they only handle low currents.
I'm sure there's a way of building a circuit based on such a chip that
used a current divider so that the chip only saw a tiny fraction of the
real current, enabling it to handle EV currents and still give useful
voltage info and some overcharge regulation (through another heat-sunk
part of the circuit).
(I'm an electronics noob, so don't ask me how to do it :-)
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2006 1:43 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: What is the future of Li BMS?
>
>
>
> We already have people on this list developing lithium BMS for higher
> amperage EV needs today. Victor should have something out
> soon. Also, I
> think John L has or is developing something.
>
> I sure like these little modules, at $45 for the 10 cell
> unit, needing 9
> units for 312V, approx $500 for BMS is pretty good. Too bad
> the max current
> draw is only 27A.
>
> I wonder, it the circuit can be modified easily to handle
> 300A or even
> 1000A max draw?
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: October 9, 2006 7:49 PM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: What is the future of Li BMS?
>
> Look at these products and based on what you see, what do you
> foresee on the
> future price for items such as this and also, the reality and
> likelihood of
> us owning products like this?
>
> Is THIS the beginnings of an off the shelf universal BMS system?
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=911
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=912
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=910
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=909
>
> Where do we go from here? What is to be done next? Do items
> like this do
> anything for us; or are we no further along now then we were?
> If this item is nothing; then what will be something and when
> will that be
> and what will it be?
>
> I see a little PCB and silicon in those pics. How is the
> imagined BMS in
> your head different then these? How is it better? What does it do
> different? How much does it cost and is it cheaper? How
> will a BMS ever be
> cheaper? What components are currently not available now
> that need to be?
> How will any prices go down? You know what component prices
> are. Have
> prices for any components ever gone down? When and how much?
>
> Is BMS a reality or a farce? Will or will not happen in our
> lifetimes?
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
That is why I posted this has anyone contacted them about buying them? I did
try several times with A123.
So I take it you have contacted SAFT and they are not selling the 45 Ah cell
and module?
Don
In a message dated 10/9/2006 6:34:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 11:08 AM 10/9/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Check out the links below to see 45 ah lithium cells
>
>Over 3000 cycles 80% DOD at the C3 rate.
>
>_http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/VLE_module.pdf_
>(http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/VLE_module.pdf)
>
>Philippe I agree with what your saying in your post below but what good is
>it if they will not sell you a battery? Has anyone been able to buy an A123
>battery? If not has anyone even had a reply or know their cost?
Same comment applies to the Saft batteries.
What good are they if you can't buy them?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim wrote:
so the adapter plate actually might be the easiest part for me.
There is a little more too it then just the plate:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
Also what does everyone think of oversizing the motor
such that I could, in a pinch, do 70mph
Any of these will work, it just comes down to money and which one you
want or have enough room for or can support the weight of:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php
You might contact the manufacturer for a really solid recommendation
as to their performance:
http://www.go-ev.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So you are saying that going to nearly 80% dod is ok? And that doesn't
> toast the pack?
Nope. After all, Hawkers have a 400-cycle life with 100% DOD, better
than 500 cycles with 80% DOD, but I don't know what Delphis got. Each
battery is closely watched by a BMS - I don't think it does active
balancing, but they are very well tended and never even see 5C
discharge rates.
> So what kind of life are owners getting from a pack on these Rangers?
>
> Mike
Haven't read documented ranges, but Blue Sky Motors has enough used
Delphis to load test and use for replacement/repair. Many well-tended
lead packs (both flooded and SLA) manage 20-25K mi, but my truck
recently hit 20K, so I don't know if I have originals and am running
on borrowed time or not. When range drops below commute level, it will
still get months or even a couple years of use as the around-town
vehicle. Then I'll go the 12V replacement route.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I've seen this. Although it does look good, I think Firefly will have a
product available sooner. I've seen a lot of good updates from Firefly on
their progress. Again, Firefly has some big backing: Caterpillar Inc,
Electrolux, the military, and others. Of course I'd love to see PWTC come
out with a product as well.
Also a reply from Firefly concerning PWTC:
"Thanks for your note. The company's technology has been around for
quite awhile now. Carbon encompasses a broad spectrum of materials.
We're doing something different from them which is quite distinct,
leading to much better life and performance."
Oh, and about Europositron. From what I've read, they are a complete
scam/vaporware. Definately don't get your hopes up. But if it happens to be
real, well, then great.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:08 AM
Subject: Firefly's competition
Looks like they might beat Firefly to the market?
http://www.pwtcbattery.com/technology/
Anyone who's done this before want to call for specs/pricing/availability?
"call the company directly at 713-621-4310"
http://www.pwtcbattery.com/press/08-15-06_pilotplantRVC.php..htm
Will these batteries like to handle short circuit discharge loads or
instead only want to put out ~400 amps?
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/contact.html
Is there any real potential in these batteries? What do they offer?
Are both these batteries a reality for 2007?
How about that awesome aluminum based battery? Any potential in
it(discharge power)?
http://www.europositron.com/en/img/theoretic.gif
http://www.europositron.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm wondering what people think about these batteries.
A set of these 150 amphour batteries look like they
would give a lot of range. It looks like three of
these would fit in about the same space as an Orbital,
giving aproximately the same voltage. I understand
that this company is the Chinese partner to Altair
Nanotechnologies.
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
Thank you for pointing this out, I didn't mean to downplay how critical this
step is or how difficult it may be, only to state that I felt comfortable with
the process after having mated several unusual engine/transmission combinations
in the past. I'm actually more concerned with how to accomplish my next project
where I want to do away with the transmission completely. I'd also like to do
away with the driveshaft, but have not figured out how to, or if I should even
try to. A motor is quite a lot of weight to be adding to the unsprung total,
besides hanging such a weight of the front of a rearend. Maybe the only way is
with a stationary differential and CV shafts. But even a junkyard IRS is
expensive. Possibly a modified IFS from a 4x4 truck. Anyone have thoughts on
this? Maybe I'll just live with the driveshaft, it just seems an incredible
waste of space.
Once I get the Eclipse stripped and weighed, I'll contact go-ev.com for
recommendation. Thank you.
---
Jim
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jim wrote:
> so the adapter plate actually might be the easiest part for me.
There is a little more too it then just the plate:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
> Also what does everyone think of oversizing the motor
> such that I could, in a pinch, do 70mph
Any of these will work, it just comes down to money and which one you
want or have enough room for or can support the weight of:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php
You might contact the manufacturer for a really solid recommendation
as to their performance:
http://www.go-ev.com/
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got a link for us to check out?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reverend Gadget
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2006 4:15 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Lithium Polymer batteries
>
>
> I'm wondering what people think about these batteries.
> A set of these 150 amphour batteries look like they
> would give a lot of range. It looks like three of
> these would fit in about the same space as an Orbital,
> giving aproximately the same voltage. I understand
> that this company is the Chinese partner to Altair
> Nanotechnologies.
>
> Gadget
>
>
> visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com,
> gadgetsworld.org, leftcoastconversions.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At that rate, you'd be better off making the BMS transistor into the
controller. If you have a transistor capable on 1000A on each BMS,
then it would make sense to use that as the output transistor. Then
you've got the brilliant ability to adjust the original DC voltage as
well as biasing the current draw away from weaker cells.
MOSFETs capable of immense currents are easier/cheaper to find in low
voltage devices. They tend to have far lower rds-on and thus make much
less heat. However, the cost of making such thick traces/busbars and
cable connections doesn't go down. It would probably mean 2x as many
cable connections at least, which is a reliability and resistance concern.
Danny
Don Cameron wrote:
We already have people on this list developing lithium BMS for higher
amperage EV needs today. Victor should have something out soon. Also, I
think John L has or is developing something.
I sure like these little modules, at $45 for the 10 cell unit, needing 9
units for 312V, approx $500 for BMS is pretty good. Too bad the max current
draw is only 27A.
I wonder, it the circuit can be modified easily to handle 300A or even
1000A max draw?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: October 9, 2006 7:49 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: What is the future of Li BMS?
Look at these products and based on what you see, what do you foresee on the
future price for items such as this and also, the reality and likelihood of
us owning products like this?
Is THIS the beginnings of an off the shelf universal BMS system?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=911
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=912
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=910
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=909
Where do we go from here? What is to be done next? Do items like this do
anything for us; or are we no further along now then we were?
If this item is nothing; then what will be something and when will that be
and what will it be?
I see a little PCB and silicon in those pics. How is the imagined BMS in
your head different then these? How is it better? What does it do
different? How much does it cost and is it cheaper? How will a BMS ever be
cheaper? What components are currently not available now that need to be?
How will any prices go down? You know what component prices are. Have
prices for any components ever gone down? When and how much?
Is BMS a reality or a farce? Will or will not happen in our lifetimes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
...continued email
Also, how do you provide reverse current for regen and high
charging rates? Another FET in series with existing? Even more Rds_on then. In
parallel? Can't do it, body diodes still conduct the current.
It is not the way to do it, and the ships used in laptop BMSes aren't suitable
for anything but the topologies with pass transistors.
Fortunately, there are other simple ways to do it.
Victor
> I wonder, it the circuit can be modified easily to handle 300A or even
> 1000A max draw?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: October 9, 2006 7:49 PM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: What is the future of Li BMS?
>
> Look at these products and based on what you see, what do you foresee on the
> future price for items such as this and also, the reality and likelihood of
> us owning products like this?
>
> Is THIS the beginnings of an off the shelf universal BMS system?
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=911
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=912
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=910
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=909
>
> Where do we go from here? What is to be done next? Do items like this do
> anything for us; or are we no further along now then we were?
> If this item is nothing; then what will be something and when will that be
> and what will it be?
>
> I see a little PCB and silicon in those pics. How is the imagined BMS in
> your head different then these? How is it better? What does it do
> different? How much does it cost and is it cheaper? How will a BMS ever be
> cheaper? What components are currently not available now that need to be?
> How will any prices go down? You know what component prices are. Have
> prices for any components ever gone down? When and how much?
>
> Is BMS a reality or a farce? Will or will not happen in our lifetimes?
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
http://homepage.mac.com/ptiano/iMovieTheater20.html Is this old news? I
never saw this before. Click on GM TV Spot. Lawrence Rhodes.....
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--- Begin Message ---
The most wrong way to manage Lion cells is to cure symptoms. The cells
behaviour can be predicted easily as long you know the surroindings and
enviromental conditions.
Rarely cells fail just by using them. You can easliy see the potentially
failing cell by measuring it before putting it evne in the pack. I could
say that 98% of all failed cells I have had have resigned from their
post due misuse. At the moment my experience is limited to a bit over 1
000 000 Ahs in total of used and tested lithium cells. (Co,Mn,Fe)
Most wrong way is to find the balance with voltage only. At least with
the cells I have used. Pack is badly out of balance if you charge all
cells to 100% SOC and start using them from there. Weakest link will
fail first and much sooner thant you expect. If you start bypassing the
current over the cells you will need heavy and perhaps even expencive
way to do it.
Voltage is a good reference but not only source of SOH information.
Track current, temperature and history data and it will work.
And now someone thinks it will be expencive. It can if not done correctly.
Lets say you get the double mileage with same pack of cells with BMS.
Why ?
Without it the weakest link will use most highest individual DOD in the
pack. So it has lowest cycllic life too. Best cells have less and less
DOD in every cycle since their rate of death is much lower. There will
be 200 to 300 % difference in the lifetimes. With certain conditions
even more.
By adjusting the operational capacity window parameters you can choose
the rate of death. Higher cell voltages in end of charge fastens the
electrolyte dissolving. Also using heat to lower the impedance during
charging you can adjust the lifetime of the cells.
This is where I have the border between "BMS" (voltage limitations with
tempsensors) and BMS (historical database to define lifetime trends and
capacity based balancing to match the cyclic and electrolyte lifetime)
Now the 10-20% added price on the plain Lithium cells has nicely been
justified by the doubled lifetime. That's the cost of BMS today.
If we would live in perfect world and all cells would be identical and
electrolyte would not be damaged by overcharging, all extra energy put
to cell would just transform to cold air or light or cosmic radiation..
We would be able to make briefcases with 300 kWh energy...
There are pending patents on the issues mentioned up here earlier and
when they are all public anyone with non-commercial activities can find
their ways to implement it.
I can see 30 kWh Lion packs with all necesary auxiliary devices (3200W
Chargers, computers, touch screens, controller boards for pedals and
contactors, cell electronics) with less than 15000 USD in near future.
VERY doable. When all gets to it's place you can even half that price.
So what I do think about BMS over all (OEM world)... In future there
will not be a BMS sold separately.
It integrates to cell structures. OEM type manufacturing of the
technology is already existing. The "BMS" makers will still be there and
doing their thing. From there they do the very important work to test
the theories and existing technology. They do not eat anything without
chewing it throughly.
There are still at least 500 Lithium battery manufacturers world wide.
They sell to anyone they can. Small players will vanish or stay in small
markets. Big players buy all potential technology they see and it
evolves from there as any other industry.
Just my personal opinion...
-Jukka
Mark Fowler kirjoitti:
Hi all,
John's and Victor's Li-BMS systems monitor the voltage and bleed off
excess charge current.
They attach (in parallel) to an already connected battery string.
The circuit boards in these links actually connect the batteries into a
series string.
All current runs through the circuit itself, allowing the circuit to
monitor the current as well as voltage, and to disconnect the batteries
in fault situations.
This is fine for relatively low currents (like in R/C models or bikes or
scooters) but doesn't scale up too easily without redesigning how the
whole thing works (i.e. where the current flows).
These systems are cheap because of mass production.
(I wonder how big the R/C market is in terms of total KWh of batteries
compared to the EV market...)
There are chips like http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2931
that do the bulk of the work for you - just wrap a circuit around them
to plug everything in to.
Once again - the problem is that these chips expect the current to be
flowing through them to do their job, so they only handle low currents.
I'm sure there's a way of building a circuit based on such a chip that
used a current divider so that the chip only saw a tiny fraction of the
real current, enabling it to handle EV currents and still give useful
voltage info and some overcharge regulation (through another heat-sunk
part of the circuit).
(I'm an electronics noob, so don't ask me how to do it :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2006 1:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: What is the future of Li BMS?
We already have people on this list developing lithium BMS for higher
amperage EV needs today. Victor should have something out
soon. Also, I
think John L has or is developing something.
I sure like these little modules, at $45 for the 10 cell
unit, needing 9
units for 312V, approx $500 for BMS is pretty good. Too bad
the max current
draw is only 27A.
I wonder, it the circuit can be modified easily to handle
300A or even
1000A max draw?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: October 9, 2006 7:49 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: What is the future of Li BMS?
Look at these products and based on what you see, what do you
foresee on the
future price for items such as this and also, the reality and
likelihood of
us owning products like this?
Is THIS the beginnings of an off the shelf universal BMS system?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=911
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=912
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=910
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=909
Where do we go from here? What is to be done next? Do items
like this do
anything for us; or are we no further along now then we were?
If this item is nothing; then what will be something and when
will that be
and what will it be?
I see a little PCB and silicon in those pics. How is the
imagined BMS in
your head different then these? How is it better? What does it do
different? How much does it cost and is it cheaper? How
will a BMS ever be
cheaper? What components are currently not available now
that need to be?
How will any prices go down? You know what component prices
are. Have
prices for any components ever gone down? When and how much?
Is BMS a reality or a farce? Will or will not happen in our
lifetimes?
--- End Message ---
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I think this states the GM idelology clearly:
"Since the world will be destroyed anyway why not drive Hummer!"
Can't wait to start showeling excellent Chinese Lithium EVs up to their
A#%"..es
Again.. just my personal opinion.
-Jukka
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
For those that didn't see the commercial.....nerdy guy stationed at a remote
observatory sees asteroid will collide with the earth in 72 hours. Reaches
brilliant conclusion, runs from building, hops into his EV (complete with
electric whine) and goes out to buy a GM Hummer. Maybe the marketing guys that
sold this advertising idea to GM realized that this would resonate well with
the beaten down GM management who still believe that replacing the EV1 with the
Hummer was the right choice.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
Board Member, Web Administration and Newsletter Editor
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
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which makes me think hummers are destructive in themselves... wonder if they
saw that possible connotation?
doubtful, I've noticed management gets an idea, then sticks with it no
matter how ludicrous it turns out to be
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
I think this states the GM idelology clearly:
"Since the world will be destroyed anyway why not drive Hummer!"
Can't wait to start showeling excellent Chinese Lithium EVs up to their
A#%"..es
Again.. just my personal opinion.
-Jukka
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
For those that didn't see the commercial.....nerdy guy stationed at a
remote observatory sees asteroid will collide with the earth in 72 hours.
Reaches brilliant conclusion, runs from building, hops into his EV
(complete with electric whine) and goes out to buy a GM Hummer. Maybe
the marketing guys that sold this advertising idea to GM realized that
this would resonate well with the beaten down GM management who still
believe that replacing the EV1 with the Hummer was the right choice.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
Board Member, Web Administration and Newsletter Editor
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
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Oh my! Could GM really be working on an ev2 ?!?
I hope this isn't some kind of spoof.
ironic that this hits the list at the same time as the hummer ad.
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The EV2 was the four seats project.
http://www.speedreadingcourse.com/hopeforhumanity/02_theev2.htm
Philippe from France
EV1 addicted
---------- Initial Header -----------
>From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To : <[email protected]>
Cc :
Date : Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:54:38 +0100
Subject : RE: EV2 GM TV spot.
Oh my! Could GM really be working on an ev2 ?!?
I hope this isn't some kind of spoof.
ironic that this hits the list at the same time as the hummer ad.
--------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS ---------------------
Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant Sécurité Enfants, le
contrôle parental d'Alice.
http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Well, coal-fired plants for electricity were more like 50% of the impact of
an ICE, at least from the reports I've read in the past, but you'd have to
go back several years into the archives to find the study link."
That is a total peanut gallery cop out. If you are going to cite something
- come on, dig it up! What study do you have that says 50%?
Try here: http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: October 8, 2006 11:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy ( Michaela EV
Disappointment)
> Read the research about the comparison of total impact and cost of
energy of
> EV vs ICE. You will find that even with coal powered plants, it is
5% of
> what ICE cars produce. Lead batteries are recycled. Roads impact
is the
> same for both cases. Yes there is an impact - but no it is nowhere
> near what ICE cars have.
>
> Environmental IS the reason to convert.
>
Well, coal-fired plants for electricity were more like 50% of the impact of
an ICE, at least from the reports I've read in the past, but you'd have to
go back several years into the archives to find the study link.
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