EV Digest 5999
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Anybody lnow the watt hour per kg numbers for nimhi batteries?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 914 power req (was RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: GoWheel.com and Lithium
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Anybody lnow the watt hour per kg numbers for nimhi batteries?
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by Patrick Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 914 power req (was RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group
buy
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Request Porsche 914 power requirements at 65mph
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: GoWheel.com and Lithium
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy ( Michaela EV Disappointment)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What is the future of Li BMS?
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lighter Porsche 914
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: GoWheel.com and Lithium
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: GoWheel.com and Lithium
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody know the watt hour per kg numbers for nimhi batteries?
I think lithium ion is less than 190 whr/kg right?
What about for supercapacitors.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Patrick Clarke wrote:
> We're in Seattle, so the batteries aren't getting anywhere
> near freezing - at least yet. It's been in the 60's during
> the days dropping into the 40's at night (just in case it
> matters).
What I'm suggesting is that since your actual temps are higher (nearer
to the 77F ro so that the battery's ratings are at), then the capacity
loss you should expect due to temperature should be *less* than the ~15%
predicted for freezing temps.
> Anyway, I think that by the time the timer cuts off, the
> current is down to 1-3 amps, more likely on the low end,
> say 1-2 amps.
OK; that sounds reassuring.
> How do I put in an additional 5-10%, though?
> Just leave it on longer - if so, how long?
> Won't the pack voltage be raised too high, though?
This depends on what sort of charger you've got and how it behaves. For
AGMs you really need a charger that can hold a set voltage accurately.
I'm guessing (hoping) that your charger does charge to a set voltage,
and the high/low switch selects between two current levels.
It could be that the high/low switch selects between two voltage levels,
or that the charger really doesn't charge to any particular voltage,
etc.
If the charger does charge to a set voltage, then you could simply leave
it run longer on the low setting. The current will continue to fall
off, so it will take longer to put in a given amount of Ah, and it is
more difficult to control how many additional Ah are returned since you
don't have control over how fast/slow the current continues to drop with
time. On the bright side, this is the method many UPS battery
manufacturers appear more comfortable with.
The alternative is to let the current drop to a low level, like 1-2% of
the Ah rating, then have the charger hold this current for a set time.
The voltage will rise when you do this, but there is some argument that
it is actually beneficial to allow the voltage to rise as required
during the finish phase. Since you have control over both the current
and charge time, you can control exactly how much overcharge you apply
to the battery (e.g. 1hr @ 2A = 2Ah, which is about 7% of your 27Ah
discharge). This typically results in a shorter charge duration than
holding the voltage and letting the current taper off, so it is what
EVers typically do.
> How should I adjust my charging regime - in general,
> and accounting for temperature variations?
I think the general suggestions have been covered above.
For temperature, the typical adjustment is 0.003-0.005V/cell per degree
C that the temperature varies from whatever your charging voltage is
specified at (77F/25C).
For your 60-cell pack you would raise the voltage by 0.18-0.3V per
degree C *cooler* than 25C, and decrease it by that amount for each
degree *above* 25C.
> My memory is it's down to a couple of amps or so. I don't know what a
> CEF is, but the Ah display is usually zero or slightly positive.
Zero or slightly positive Ah is good. The CEF is described in the
E-Meter manual (should still be available on the Xantrex site in .pdf
format if you've lost the paper copy). Basically it is the amount by
which the E-Meter 'discounts' Ah during charge to account for the less
than 100% efficiency of the charging process. For instance, during
discharge each Ah you remove from the battery is indicated faithfully by
the E-Meter as -1Ah; during charge, each Ah your return to the battery
is indicated as only a fraction of its real value. With a CEF of 0.9
(90%), 1Ah actually returned to the battery is indicated as +0.9Ah. If
the CEF is accurate and the fully charged parameters are set accurately,
etc. then this results in the E-Meter Ah count reaching 0Ah *just* as
you finish returning the appropriate overcharge amount.
The E-Meter will either re-compute the CEF automatically after each
complete charge, or will use a value that you manually specify. The
E-Meter will only recompute the CEF if the 'fully-charged' parameters
you've programmed in are met (e.g. voltage above X and current below Y
simultaneously for 5min). If you program in fully charged parameters
that don't correspond to the actual fully charged point, then the
computed CEF will be off.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Any idea of the 914's Cd (or CdA)? I recall that the best cars in the
> EPA database required 10HP to hold 55mph, and I would be surprised if
> the 914 had a worse CdA than a typical econobox hatchback, etc.
>
Ahh, it was 10 hp to hold 50mph, not 55. Power requirements go up as the
square of the speed so going 15 mph faster should theoretically require
about 40% more power.
My notes indicate that the Cd for a 914 is .38 , which is really pretty
bad one of the worst for Porsches. It does have a small frontal area
though.
>> The 120min (C/2) capacity is meaningless if you are draining
>> them at more than 1C
>
> Yes, of course. However, the 120min capacity is *very* meaningful in
> the context of the original requirement of being able to travel 100mi.
> At 65mph it takes about 1.5hrs to travel 100mi; you *cannot* travel
> 100mi if discharging the batteries at 1C or higher. As I stated, it is
> possible to travel 100mi provided the car averages about 7.5kW draw,
> since this corresponds to the 2hr discharge rate.
You /might/ be able to do this (65mph @ 7.5kw) with avery small and
slippery car, perhaps a Honda Insight. However, I'm not sure even the
Insight is that good, and I don't know if it has enough room for all of
those batteries.
Finaly Peukert starts having a more noticiable effect on YTs when you go
above C/2, and I think you forgot to account for falling voltage during
discharge. I would suspect you'd have perhaps only 7kw(average) available
for 1.5 hours and that is to 100% DoD.
> The question is if
> 7.5kW will allow the car to travel at the target speed of 65mph or not;
> if not, then 100mi range is still possible, it just means travelling at
> a lower speed. The advantage of poor aero is that a relatively small
> decrease in speed will have a larger impact on power consumption! ;^>
In a 914 I'd guess you could only go 40mph on 7kw. That works out to a
range of perhaps 60 miles, at 40mph.
That is a LOT shorter and slower than 100 miles at 65mph.
You might get 100 miles in a 914 with 20 yts, at 25 mph....maybe.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch!!
So an EV size pack (one that will get 50 miles in the average conversion)
will only cost you $54,000 (8 packs). Umm, I'll pass.
> Look what I found...
> http://www.gowheel.com/Batteries/PricesDoc.html
>
> - (expected ship date Nov. 14, 2006) Contact us at 949-497-3600 or
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [HERE]
>
> We will soon be offering Electric Vehicle Battery Packs:
> GoWheel-9192: 1.475kwh @79.2 volts @ 560 amps, with BMS, Battery Box and
> Cooling System
>
> Swap-out Battery Pack Modules for Electric Vehicles available with any
> type connector or placement List: $7,500.00 Sale: $6,750.00
> Dealer: $5,625.00
> All prices + Shipping & Handling (approx. $29 FEDX Ground USA) Weight
> approx. 37.21 pounds
>
> Configured Form Factors: Weight approx. 33.1 pounds + packing materials
> 10.5 x 8.3 x 6.2 inches with standard posts, or marine posts, or
> Anderson Connectors.
>
> Battery Packs are intended to be "Quick-Switch" ready for slide-in/out
> of the battery/BMS (in/out of the included Battery Box installed in
> vehicle). Packs can be grouped in series or parallel, but are
> individually complete. Boxes are watertight up to top edge after closing
> side (slide-out) door. Top contains low voltage cooling fans and are
> water sealed to upward facing tubes (like 2 radiator hoses) attachable
> to ram or outside air in/out ducts. Two fans included, one forcing high
> flow in, and one fan forcing air out, temperature activated.
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> OK, so they are selling a 80v 18Ah pack that will deliver 560A (30C)
> weighing 33lbs (14kg) for between $5,625 and $6,750 depending on whether
> you can convince them you are a dealer or not.
>
> So for a 160v 90Ah (similar to what's in my car) I'd be looking at 10
> packs for US$56K (I'd become the Aus dealer :-) weighing 140kg.
> So it would be capable of maxing out a LV-Z2K (say 150v x 2000A) giving
> 300KW to the motor.
> Ooh baby...
>
> I SO hope this is real...
>
> Mark
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Rudman
>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2006 2:58 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: GoWheel.com and Lithium
>>
>>
>> Umm I have answers..
>> but can not say.
>>
>> Lets see how well they do thier job.
>>
>> Madman
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:52 AM
>> Subject: GoWheel.com and Lithium
>>
>>
>> > I just got spammed by GoWheel.com who claim that they will
>> be selling EV
>> > sized batteries from A123 with BMS within a couple of weeks.
>> >
>> > They gave no capacity specs or prices in their email nor on
>> their web
>> site.
>> >
>> >
>> > So A123 is really available? At what cost? Maybe someone
>> in more of an
>> OEM
>> > position can get quantities (Victor?) I wonder what kind of BMS?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>> >
>> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> The key is in the length (and size) of the wire.
Absolutely!
My concern is that you are suggesting this to a very green EV newbie,
with no mention of an appropriate wire guage, nor of any sort of
protection devices (the properly rated 250A breaker you used, or even
just a 30A fuse rated for the voltage, etc.), nor the detail of
stringing the cord out for cooling rather than leaving it coiled up,
etc.
I don't think there is enough difference between a 25A load test and the
10A load test that can be performed simply by turning on his heater to
make it worth the hassle. If he really wants to load test his
batteries, I think an inexpensive SLI load tester that can briefly load
each battery to more than 100A is both more informative and easier for a
newbie to handle (if more expensive than the equally effective coat
hanger in a bucket of water ;^).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ni-Mh has been said to be around 75-90 Wh/kg
Li-Fe is about 100 Wh/kg
Li-Mn is about 110 Wh/kg
Li-Co is about 120 Wh/kg
All these above cells can be "tuned" to higher capacity but it will
affect to other parameters. Like power and cyclic life.
I've seen over 200 Wh/kg from same cells.
previous numbers include BMS.
-Jukka
GWMobile kirjoitti:
Anybody know the watt hour per kg numbers for nimhi batteries?
I think lithium ion is less than 190 whr/kg right?
What about for supercapacitors.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor asked:
How did you measure 250Wh/mi?
AC power in at the wall outlet or DC power into the
pack or DC power out of the pack?
----
I'm dividing the Whrs logged on the Emeter by the mileage, so the
latter? As an aside - it had been suggested earlier that this may be on
the high side. I've since found out that the local Les Schwab can't
adjust alignment on a car with 12" wheels. It took them a while to
figure this out, too... just an FYI for anyone in the Seattle area.
Since you never took it more than 20 mi / 45 Ah
(was this during warmer weather?) this should
be no problem, your charging seems to be OK as well and
the only other moment you could have affected the quality
from your pack is when you describe that you drew the
pack low with the DC/DC. How low was that?
----
I believe it was down to 5 or 6V each, but will check my log later. I'd
left the DC/DC on while not driving the car. FWIW, there later developed
a short in the DC/DC - it melted the leads going to the aux battery!
Also, thanks for the further info on the extension cord load test,
although assuming availability at a non-exorbitant price, I'll probably
try to find a carbon-pile load tester as Roger suggested. Or see if a
10A load from the heater provides enough load. Of course, I want to
assure you that *I'M* not nervous - it's for the MRS's peace of mind,
see? Working on my own, doing stuff with E-lek-tricity for the first
time makes HER nervous, not ME..
;-)
then, Roger asked some questions:
- what do you do if the current is >4A when you check?
------
Let it go on "Low" until it's below 4A.
- what is the voltage before you flick the charger to 'high'?
----
I'm afraid I don't know offhand - I'm just checking to make sure the
current's not going to be so high as to trip my house's breaker
(presumably ?4 amps on Low, when switched to High, will).
- what is the current during the time that the charger is on 'high'?
-----
If it was just under 4A on Low, switching to high pops it up to 9-10A.
It does drop pretty quickly, but I don't have meaningful notes on how
quickly.
The last thing you want to do is to hit the batteries with high current
when they are nearly full as you may be venting a battery by doing so.
Venting a battery will permanently reduce its capacity, and repeatedly
venting it will reduce its capacity more and more.
It would probably be better to leave the charger run longer on the 'low'
setting and let the current taper to a lower value, such as 1-2A (or
less, if the batteries will get there). If your pack is well-balanced,
the current should drop to a low level like this fairly quickly after
hitting the voltage setpoint your charger is set for (unless it is way
off for the battery temperature).
-----
The last time I spoke to the very nice fellow who upgraded our
conversion for us, he said that we could just leave the charger on Low
"overnight" and it should be fine. Come to think of it, he offered this
info a couple of times, which makes me wonder if he thought it was
preferable to previous directions. I hope to see him tonight at the SEVA
meeting, so will ask him if I can. Given my paranoia of not doing right
by my batteries, I wasn't averse to the slightly more involved
directions of switching from Low to High at 4 amps, so I've only let it
go "overnight" (which I read as ~12 hrs) on Low a couple of times. Maybe
I should do that more often?
Thank you ALL for all the useful help, advice and info. I've learned
more today than in a long time! I'll try to put my hands on a load
tester and get some post-discharge data, with and without (next morning)
load. I may still be frustrated, but at least I have a slightly better
context for that frustration.
Thanks, Patrick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
My notes indicate that the Cd for a 914 is .38 , which is really pretty
bad one of the worst for Porsches. It does have a small frontal area
though.
More important is the form of the rear end. The "vacuum" vehicle
generates to the rear end forms 80% of the drag.
I just have to admire the rear of the EV1... It must have been a real
experience to drive it in higher speeds.
My brick-alike-van feels like it's just about to tip over in highway at
75 mph. A true near death experience and adrenaline rush....
-Jukka
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have a 914, but I do travel about 22 miles each way to work
each day on the interstate and get going upwards of 70 to 75mph.
I have a 1974 Toyota Celica, which is a farily light small car, with a
120v pack (15 8v trojans), and a Curtis 550amp controller. It also
has a 5 speed transmission (which I think the 914 has).
By average power requirement, what exactly are you looking for? Amps
drawn at 65mph? I can check tomorrow, but for me my guess is between
250 and 350.
On a related note, I have been thinking about how to capture better
data about power requirements and efficiencies.
Currently, I'm keeping a log book of how far I travel each day, and
when I charge at night, I record the total number of kwh needed to
recharge the batteries (using a kill-a-watt meter).
http://www.chriskate.net/electriccar.html
What if you had a small computer, which is reading the pack voltage,
amp draw, gps location (and calculating rough speed, elevation
change), and also amps getting put back into the batteries (charging
or regen), and recording this data once every minute or so (or more
often).
Then you could take this data and do some very insightful analysis. I
could do all of this, except I don't know how to read the pack
voltage, and amp draws into a computer (linux). There has to be some
external IO things, which can plug into a serial or USB port. Anyone
ever done this or can point me in the right direction to get it done?
Hell, you could even set the system up to plug into the internet from
time to time and upload the data into a central place (evalbum?).
On 10/10/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any 914 pilots out there that can run a quick test and tell us what the
power requirements are on flat level ground with no wind?
Preferably an average power requirement taken going both directions on the
same stretch or road.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a reminder to the credulous: GoWheel.com's head guy Jay Lashlee appears
to be the same guy who was named as a co-conspirator in the indictment of
several men in connection with a Ponzi scheme fraud called the "Genesis Fund"
and went to prison in 2003. From the indictment:
"A Ponzi scheme is a fraud scheme whereby investors are lured to a particular
investment by the promise of high returns, but rather than investing the funds
in the touted investment, the perpetrators of the scheme use the new investors'
funds to pay money to other investors as false profits in order to maintain the
appearance that the investment is earning the promised high rate of return.
Collectively, the Genesis Fund investors entrusted over $80,000,000 with the
defendants and their co-conspirators from in or about May 1998 to in or about
June 2002."
Due caution is advised.
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ouch!!
So an EV size pack (one that will get 50 miles in the average conversion)
will only cost you $54,000 (8 packs). Umm, I'll pass.
> Look what I found...
> http://www.gowheel.com/Batteries/PricesDoc.html
>
> - (expected ship date Nov. 14, 2006) Contact us at 949-497-3600 or
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [HERE]
>
> We will soon be offering Electric Vehicle Battery Packs:
> GoWheel-9192: 1.475kwh @79.2 volts @ 560 amps, with BMS, Battery Box and
> Cooling System
>
> Swap-out Battery Pack Modules for Electric Vehicles available with any
> type connector or placement List: $7,500.00 Sale: $6,750.00
> Dealer: $5,625.00
> All prices + Shipping & Handling (approx. $29 FEDX Ground USA) Weight
> approx. 37.21 pounds
>
> Configured Form Factors: Weight approx. 33.1 pounds + packing materials
> 10.5 x 8.3 x 6.2 inches with standard posts, or marine posts, or
> Anderson Connectors.
>
> Battery Packs are intended to be "Quick-Switch" ready for slide-in/out
> of the battery/BMS (in/out of the included Battery Box installed in
> vehicle). Packs can be grouped in series or parallel, but are
> individually complete. Boxes are watertight up to top edge after closing
> side (slide-out) door. Top contains low voltage cooling fans and are
> water sealed to upward facing tubes (like 2 radiator hoses) attachable
> to ram or outside air in/out ducts. Two fans included, one forcing high
> flow in, and one fan forcing air out, temperature activated.
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> OK, so they are selling a 80v 18Ah pack that will deliver 560A (30C)
> weighing 33lbs (14kg) for between $5,625 and $6,750 depending on whether
> you can convince them you are a dealer or not.
>
> So for a 160v 90Ah (similar to what's in my car) I'd be looking at 10
> packs for US$56K (I'd become the Aus dealer :-) weighing 140kg.
> So it would be capable of maxing out a LV-Z2K (say 150v x 2000A) giving
> 300KW to the motor.
> Ooh baby...
>
> I SO hope this is real...
>
> Mark
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Rudman
>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2006 2:58 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: GoWheel.com and Lithium
>>
>>
>> Umm I have answers..
>> but can not say.
>>
>> Lets see how well they do thier job.
>>
>> Madman
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Don Cameron"
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:52 AM
>> Subject: GoWheel.com and Lithium
>>
>>
>> > I just got spammed by GoWheel.com who claim that they will
>> be selling EV
>> > sized batteries from A123 with BMS within a couple of weeks.
>> >
>> > They gave no capacity specs or prices in their email nor on
>> their web
>> site.
>> >
>> >
>> > So A123 is really available? At what cost? Maybe someone
>> in more of an
>> OEM
>> > position can get quantities (Victor?) I wonder what kind of BMS?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>> >
>> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Good Idea!
I just sent an email to Hummer to ask
where I could get that little car,
because I heard it needs no gas ;-}
awesome! everyone on the list should do this. cor can you post the
email addy for us?
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You just did it again - an unsubstantiated off the cuff remark. If
you are
> going to state otherwise, stop being lazy and cite your sources.
I promise, there was a study, but the list posting with the link
predates the Yahoo archive; I did find:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/14602
http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/96-EV+EMISSIONS.PDF
http://www.ilea.org./
and of course Chip's paper, which you already listed,
but not the specific study that had calculated an exact number
(something just over 50% of the emissions of a gas car if an EV is
supplied by the average coal-fired plant). Since I couldn't find the
substantiation, you *could* continue to believe the original post that
said coal plants feeding EVs only put out 10% of the emissions of
equivalent gas cars, but even without a non-profit or government study
as "proof", we know that is grossly optimistic. I agree, though, it is
best to use exact, reproduceable values in such a discussion, but I
figured it was like preaching to the choir in this venue!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
The wrong way to manage Lion cells is to cure symptoms.
The cell's behavior can be predicted easily as long you know
the surroundings and environmental conditions.
I have found that voltage is merely a symptom of a balancing problem.
Balancing based solely on voltage won't do much to extend life. The
system needs more data to make better decisions. Temperature, state of
charge, age of the battery, etc.
wasn't/isn't there a standard or three that tried to provide an
interface for batteries such that a BMS could determine all of this from
the pack, including battery chemistry? something like "smart batteries"
or something. i'd be interested to know more about this. it would be
fun to write some code to work with such a pack.
please, correct me where i have mixed-up terms and such :)
-mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Good fiberglass is a high strength composite, using carefully woven
fabrics made of fiberglass (or kevlar or carbon fiber), and epoxy
resins. It winds up mostly fiber, much thinner, lighter, more flexible,
and far stronger. Often it is not solid, but uses thin outer layers with
a foam or honeycomb core.
exactly. to wit...check out these for fun.
http://rqriley.com/xr2.htm
http://rqriley.com/xr3.htm
the xr3 is a monocoque carbon fibre hybrid. anyone know anything about
this one.
-mike
FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I pled guilty to "income tax evasion" and "tax
conspiricy". My choice was to fight the government
for years and risk a max sentence on any technicality
or agree to a simple plea and avoid hundreds of
thousands in atty fees. I didn't want to try to
convince a low income jury that the millions I
transferred for my clients and businesses was already
taxed (without dragging my clients, friends, and
family into tax audits?). I'm proud of what I did and
my court transcript and references are available for
review to anyone that wants to look at them. I will
provide contact to associates that I have done
business with for more than 20 years. We went through
this expose' months ago. This has nothing to do with
scams, batteries, motorcycles, or client losses. The
government said my trusts were used to evade taxes and
that many clients of mine used the trusts to invest in
"G e n e s i s". That fund later had all the money
stolen by their Board of Directors and Senior Director
(Lipton). The judge said if it wasn't for the minimum
sentencing guidelines, he would have done things
differently. As it was, he fined me $12,500 for the
"estimated" millions the IRS thought "tax evasion" and
"tax conspiracy" made me confess to. He could have
fined me millions. I would have confessed to murder
for the same sentence. If you want truth and
fairness, be sure to ask government for help. I'm
glad I confessed.
Jay
--- Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a reminder to the credulous: GoWheel.com's
> head guy Jay Lashlee appears to be the same guy who
> was named as a co-conspirator in the indictment of
> several men in connection with a Ponzi scheme fraud
> called the "Genesis Fund" and went to prison in
> 2003. From the indictment:
>
> "A Ponzi scheme is a fraud scheme whereby investors
> are lured to a particular investment by the promise
> of high returns, but rather than investing the funds
> in the touted investment, the perpetrators of the
> scheme use the new investors' funds to pay money to
> other investors as false profits in order to
> maintain the appearance that the investment is
> earning the promised high rate of return.
> Collectively, the Genesis Fund investors entrusted
> over $80,000,000 with the defendants and their
> co-conspirators from in or about May 1998 to in or
> about June 2002."
>
> Due caution is advised.
>
> Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ouch!!
>
> So an EV size pack (one that will get 50 miles in
> the average conversion)
> will only cost you $54,000 (8 packs). Umm, I'll
> pass.
>
> > Look what I found...
> > http://www.gowheel.com/Batteries/PricesDoc.html
> >
> > - (expected ship date Nov. 14, 2006) Contact us at
> 949-497-3600 or
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [HERE]
> >
> > We will soon be offering Electric Vehicle Battery
> Packs:
> > GoWheel-9192: 1.475kwh @79.2 volts @ 560 amps,
> with BMS, Battery Box and
> > Cooling System
> >
> > Swap-out Battery Pack Modules for Electric
> Vehicles available with any
> > type connector or placement List: $7,500.00
> Sale: $6,750.00
> > Dealer: $5,625.00
> > All prices + Shipping & Handling (approx. $29 FEDX
> Ground USA) Weight
> > approx. 37.21 pounds
> >
> > Configured Form Factors: Weight approx. 33.1
> pounds + packing materials
> > 10.5 x 8.3 x 6.2 inches with standard posts, or
> marine posts, or
> > Anderson Connectors.
> >
> > Battery Packs are intended to be "Quick-Switch"
> ready for slide-in/out
> > of the battery/BMS (in/out of the included Battery
> Box installed in
> > vehicle). Packs can be grouped in series or
> parallel, but are
> > individually complete. Boxes are watertight up to
> top edge after closing
> > side (slide-out) door. Top contains low voltage
> cooling fans and are
> > water sealed to upward facing tubes (like 2
> radiator hoses) attachable
> > to ram or outside air in/out ducts. Two fans
> included, one forcing high
> > flow in, and one fan forcing air out, temperature
> activated.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------
> >
> > OK, so they are selling a 80v 18Ah pack that will
> deliver 560A (30C)
> > weighing 33lbs (14kg) for between $5,625 and
> $6,750 depending on whether
> > you can convince them you are a dealer or not.
> >
> > So for a 160v 90Ah (similar to what's in my car)
> I'd be looking at 10
> > packs for US$56K (I'd become the Aus dealer :-)
> weighing 140kg.
> > So it would be capable of maxing out a LV-Z2K (say
> 150v x 2000A) giving
> > 300KW to the motor.
> > Ooh baby...
> >
> > I SO hope this is real...
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Rich Rudman
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2006 2:58 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: GoWheel.com and Lithium
> >>
> >>
> >> Umm I have answers..
> >> but can not say.
> >>
> >> Lets see how well they do thier job.
> >>
> >> Madman
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Don Cameron"
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:52 AM
> >> Subject: GoWheel.com and Lithium
> >>
> >>
> >> > I just got spammed by GoWheel.com who claim
> that they will
> >> be selling EV
> >> > sized batteries from A123 with BMS within a
> couple of weeks.
> >> >
> >> > They gave no capacity specs or prices in their
> email nor on
> >> their web
> >> site.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So A123 is really available? At what cost?
> Maybe someone
> >> in more of an
> >> OEM
> >> > position can get quantities (Victor?) I wonder
> what kind of BMS?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >> >
> >> > see the New Beetle EV project
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
> lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically
> authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you
> agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low
> PC-to-Phone call rates.
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peachtree city ga actually was developed from the start with golf cart
transportation and backyard airport taxiways in the plans for those with
private planes.
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 1:21 pm, Roderick Wilde wrote:
In Arizona golf carts may be licensed and operated on all roads except
freeways. You have to keep to the side of the road so as not to impede
traffic. I am not quite sure what they would think if a golf cart was
keeping up with traffic. I seem to remember that there was a max speed
in the law. Anyone from Arizona want to chime in here for
clarification. I know that Peachtree City, Georgia has over 9000
registered electric golf carts in a town of 30,000. That is about one
per family. Here is a good article on that:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1015/p01s02-ussc.html
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
I think quite a few of us would like to hear more about your fast golf
cart. A golf cart is a good chassis to experiment on and learn about
EVs.
I regret that that where I live is not a place where a golf cart could
be
operated safely. One could be loaded and hauled on a trailer or truck
to places where it could be run but that would be more trouble than
it's
worth.
----- Original Message ----- From: "England Nathan-r25543"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 3:36 PM
Subject: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
I would first like to thank all the folks who have helped with EV
questions over the years. I used a golf cart as a platform to teach
myself basic EV principals without the full price up front. If I could
not make a golf cart work there was no sense in me trying a full size
EV. I am still learning but the golf cart has taught me more than I
could have imagined. I did not talk much about this project as most EV
folks did not seem to like the idea of golf carts in the same list with
EVs. I can understand not wanting to be associated with a little 15 MPH
vehicle myself.
The golf cart was entered into a competition for golf carts last June
in
Richmond, Kentucky, I wanted to see if all these years of number
crunching and testing was teaching me anything or did I just think I
was
doing good. Four out of five trophies later I figured maybe I was doing
something right. My golf cart had the quickest 1/8 mile time of any
cart
there, gas or electric. I beat a modified 1000cc gas rig also. The
event
obviously is not held for environmental reasons but for folks who like
playing with golf carts. What happened was you had a bunch of folks
that
normally had no exposure to the power of electric vehicles above a 48
volt golf cart see what kind of performance electric is capable of. I
even had some die-hard ICE folks come over and congratulate me on my
wins... this did not mean they were ready to quit playing with their
gas
rigs just yet but they will never forget that day and what the power of
an electric golf cart did. The kids were asking questions like crazy
and
thought it was very cool, I had many questions about making an electric
racecar. I pointed out that NEDRA has already been formed and gave them
web sites to vist.
So why am I printing this now? The president of the electric auto
association in Phoenix saw my work on a golf cart forum and asked me to
give a brief overview at their October meeting last Saturday. If EV
folks want to periodically hear about an electric golf cart doing 8.7
seconds in the 1/8 mile and catching the attention of many non-EV folks
I will be happy to share. I promise I will not talk golf carts but on
rare occasions here.
Specs:
1986 Club Car
120 volt battery pack
Electronic control
Golf cart motor but not stock.
27" Mud tires on 12" rims
Rear gear 12.44:1
Top speed 50 MPH.... yes that little 6" motor was close to 8000 RPM.
Thanks,
Nate
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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10/10/2006
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10/10/2006
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Same street address and phone:
http://www.bikemenu.com/
http://www.deskmenu.com/
http://deskmenu.com/sub/bicycles.html
http://www.keykidfoundation.org/
http://www.drhealth.com/
All this and now batteries. And free spam too! Sweet!
Likely just a plot to finance the BikeaPack with its folding wheels:
http://www.bikeapack.com/
:)
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
--- Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a reminder to the credulous: GoWheel.com's head guy Jay Lashlee
> appears to be the same guy who was named as a co-conspirator in the
> indictment of several men in connection with a Ponzi scheme fraud
> called the "Genesis Fund" and went to prison in 2003. From the
> indictment:
>
> "A Ponzi scheme is a fraud scheme whereby investors are lured to a
> particular investment by the promise of high returns, but rather than
> investing the funds in the touted investment, the perpetrators of the
> scheme use the new investors' funds to pay money to other investors
> as false profits in order to maintain the appearance that the
> investment is earning the promised high rate of return. Collectively,
> the Genesis Fund investors entrusted over $80,000,000 with the
> defendants and their co-conspirators from in or about May 1998 to in
> or about June 2002."
>
> Due caution is advised.
>
> Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ouch!!
>
> So an EV size pack (one that will get 50 miles in the average
> conversion)
> will only cost you $54,000 (8 packs). Umm, I'll pass.
>
> > Look what I found...
> > http://www.gowheel.com/Batteries/PricesDoc.html
> >
> > - (expected ship date Nov. 14, 2006) Contact us at 949-497-3600 or
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [HERE]
> >
> > We will soon be offering Electric Vehicle Battery Packs:
> > GoWheel-9192: 1.475kwh @79.2 volts @ 560 amps, with BMS, Battery
> Box and
> > Cooling System
> >
> > Swap-out Battery Pack Modules for Electric Vehicles available with
> any
> > type connector or placement List: $7,500.00 Sale: $6,750.00
> > Dealer: $5,625.00
> > All prices + Shipping & Handling (approx. $29 FEDX Ground USA)
> Weight
> > approx. 37.21 pounds
> >
> > Configured Form Factors: Weight approx. 33.1 pounds + packing
> materials
> > 10.5 x 8.3 x 6.2 inches with standard posts, or marine posts, or
> > Anderson Connectors.
> >
> > Battery Packs are intended to be "Quick-Switch" ready for
> slide-in/out
> > of the battery/BMS (in/out of the included Battery Box installed in
> > vehicle). Packs can be grouped in series or parallel, but are
> > individually complete. Boxes are watertight up to top edge after
> closing
> > side (slide-out) door. Top contains low voltage cooling fans and
> are
> > water sealed to upward facing tubes (like 2 radiator hoses)
> attachable
> > to ram or outside air in/out ducts. Two fans included, one forcing
> high
> > flow in, and one fan forcing air out, temperature activated.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------
> >
> > OK, so they are selling a 80v 18Ah pack that will deliver 560A
> (30C)
> > weighing 33lbs (14kg) for between $5,625 and $6,750 depending on
> whether
> > you can convince them you are a dealer or not.
> >
> > So for a 160v 90Ah (similar to what's in my car) I'd be looking at
> 10
> > packs for US$56K (I'd become the Aus dealer :-) weighing 140kg.
> > So it would be capable of maxing out a LV-Z2K (say 150v x 2000A)
> giving
> > 300KW to the motor.
> > Ooh baby...
> >
> > I SO hope this is real...
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2006 2:58 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: GoWheel.com and Lithium
> >>
> >>
> >> Umm I have answers..
> >> but can not say.
> >>
> >> Lets see how well they do thier job.
> >>
> >> Madman
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Don Cameron"
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:52 AM
> >> Subject: GoWheel.com and Lithium
> >>
> >>
> >> > I just got spammed by GoWheel.com who claim that they will
> >> be selling EV
> >> > sized batteries from A123 with BMS within a couple of weeks.
> >> >
> >> > They gave no capacity specs or prices in their email nor on
> >> their web
> >> site.
> >> >
> >> > So A123 is really available? At what cost? Maybe someone
> >> in more of an
> >> OEM
> >> > position can get quantities (Victor?) I wonder what kind of
> BMS?
> >> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >> >
> >> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've often said that the Chinese and Japanese will save us from
ourselves....
Mike
--- Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think this states the GM idelology clearly:
>
> "Since the world will be destroyed anyway why not drive Hummer!"
>
> Can't wait to start showeling excellent Chinese Lithium EVs up to
> their
> A#%"..es
>
> Again.. just my personal opinion.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
> > For those that didn't see the commercial.....nerdy guy stationed at
> a remote
> > observatory sees asteroid will collide with the earth in 72 hours.
> Reaches
> > brilliant conclusion, runs from building, hops into his EV
> (complete with
> > electric whine) and goes out to buy a GM Hummer. Maybe the
> marketing guys that
> > sold this advertising idea to GM realized that this would resonate
> well with
> > the beaten down GM management who still believe that replacing the
> EV1 with the
> > Hummer was the right choice.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Bachand
> > Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
> > Board Member, Web Administration and Newsletter Editor
> > 1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
> >
> >
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
