EV Digest 6000
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Where can I buy CitiCar, was: Citicar on Hummer commercial
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Bad aux battery affects Voltage Sag?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: GoWheel.com and Lithium
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: GoWheel.com and Lithium
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) ABAT Lipo batts was Re:[blank]
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: What is the future of Li BMS?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lighter Porsche 914
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Request Porsche 914 power requirements at 65mph
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: lee's emeter companion?- DC-DC isoloation?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lighter Porsche 914
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Request Porsche 914 power requirements at 65mph
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I went here:
http://www.hummer.com/hummerjsp/contact/email/emailus_main.jsp?destination=c
omment_ad
I found this via www.gm.com
click on "Contact Us" in the bottom
then click on Hummer in the list of brands
then I chose
"I have a comment about your advertisements" and Submit
which will bring you to the above address.
Have fun!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Sandman
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Citicar on Hummer commercial
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Good Idea!
>
> I just sent an email to Hummer to ask
> where I could get that little car,
> because I heard it needs no gas ;-}
>
awesome! everyone on the list should do this. cor can you post the
email addy for us?
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 10, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Patrick Clarke wrote:
I have the impression that our pack may be losing a small amount
sitting still - say a tenth of a volt a day or so. Is this indicative
of a bad battery?
Not really though that is one possible way for this to happen. It
sounds more like a small load is placed on your traction pack when the
vehicle is off. Usually, this is the DC to DC converter.
As a side note, I would recommend the DC to DC be on all the time in a
short range EV. Batteries finish charging very slowly at 13.2 to 13.8
volts. All lead batteries should be fully charged from time to time or
their life will be short.
With the aux being dead, when the DC/DC come's on the E-meter's
reading jumps around in the 0-.6 amp range. I've been wondering how
accurate the meter is if it isn't reporting a steady draw - it seems
to even momentarily leap into the positive range when the car is
sitting still, sometimes. Is it possible for this to actually happen?
I question the accuracy of the e-meter at measuring low current too.
Its trying to accurately measure 60 micro volts (0.00006 volts) to say
0.6 amps. The e-meter seems to do a decent job of measuring this low
but noise issues can can some jumping around and/or offsets in the
result.
Well, crapola. I really wanted to buck the trend of the newby
murdering the batteries, but oh well. :-(
Very few new EVers don't damage their first pack. Many EVs have rather
simple charging systems so its not completely the newby's fault. You
describe one below...
I've been at pains to carefully follow the charging instructions of
the converter, or rather the upgrader of the previous conversion.
There's an on-board charger with a "high" and "low" setting.
I start it on low, wait a few minutes and then observe both the amps
going in (usually around 9-10 to start) and the amphrs used. I divide
the latter by the former and set the timer for the result, adding two
hours. I then check the amps on the emeter, and assuming it's <4, I
flick the charger to high for a half hour or so until the pack is at
150 or so. I was told not to leave it on high for more than a half
hour or so - and I haven't.
The E-meter can help here. You need to be putting in slightly more than
you took out. I'd suggest setting it to display amp hours and watching
it count them back in one day (soon.) Its possible to set up the
e-meter so it will zero out and report full without actually returning
all the amp hours. Visually, the result will be that the amp hour
counter will be at some negative number counting up toward 0 but then
jump the rest of the way to 0.
At the end of a particular discharge or just after having been driven
a bit? Just sitting or under load as Cor suggested? I can do this, and
will post the data when I have it.
I like to see battery voltage when they are all under some load after a
drive. In the Pickup I built I used to use the heater to see that all
the pack was in line after a drive. Any stinker batteries in a pack
will generally show up better after a drive because they are closer to
dead than the stronger batteries (in fact, one battery in my Pickup was
replaced at about cycle 5 - a factory stinker that didn't have the
capacity of the rest.)
Any EV that has been hitting 1/2 the nominal pack voltage while driving
generally has damaged batteries (if they are well matched and you do it
gently they may be O.K., also if you are pulling >1000 amps from them
they could be fine though less than happy about it.)
A thought - before I go buy a hundred feet of wire, is there some kind
of affordable battery tester that I could purchase that would be of
particular use with EVs and make diagnostics simpler & surer (my
intention - despite current frustrations - is for the long haul.. and
this won't be our last EV!) - or will a roll of wire really be all I
need? Noting of course, that whatever piece of equipment beyond that
could be too expensive to be feasible for me..
Some of the cheap tool stores will have a 12v battery tester that can
work. Its important that you don't leave it hooked up to long (test,
don't cycle the battery) and that you let it fully cool between tests.
The long wire method has some warning that need to be heeded too. The
wire should not be left on its spool, the wire is being used as a
resistor and will get *hot*. It needs to cool between tests because
copper (and aluminum) increase in resistance as they heat up (so if you
don't let it cool the next battery will be tested at a lower discharge
rate.) A 100 foot spool of 18 gauge wire spread out across the floor
may work (about 0.6 ohms, so about 20 amps at 12 volts.) 18 gauge wire
is rated for about 3 amps (depending on application, installation, and
insulation) so at 20 amps it needs to be spread out and it will get
quite warm.
There are other load testers too. Whole packs around 120 volts (say 96
to 144) can be tested with a cheap hardware store heater designed for
120 vac connection. You have to bring out the heater element wires
(only the heater element, the fan and switch will not take DC.) You
plug the heater in and turn the switch on to run the fan on high, then
hook only the element to the pack. This is similar to using your cars
electric heater (if you have one, I don't know a lot about your EV) to
load the pack.
HTH,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are right. It's not an EV control. But it proves the potential
success of people forging together some hardware to benefit the masses.
BTW, all of your thermal, undervoltage etc concerns were addressed. But
that's another story.
The cost was so cheap compared to everything else around it attracted
many of us into Robotics.
I tried to motivate others into making an AC system back then but it
just didn't take.
We need to design our own. But I fear we do not have the cohesiveness
to make an open source project work.
Mike
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > For the participants in any open source project, the price is time
> and
> > the parts are supplied at cost. So being part of a group like that
> > makes the price far cheaper than a retail outlet. It's a fair
> amount
> > of work. Finding people who can actually contribute is another
> thing.
>
> The OSMC project is a great start, but it's still rather expensive,
> and
> was built for a different purpose. It doesn't have features one would
>
> normally associate with even a simple EV PWM controller. For example,
> no
> current limiting, no heatsinking, no overtemperature sensing, no
> undervoltage protection, no open or shorted pot detection, etc.
>
> Here's a simple PWM controller design that does include these
> features:
>
http://austinev.org/evalbum/tech/petroson.pdf#search=%22petrosonics%20controller%22
> It too is undersized for an on-the-road EV, but it is straightforward
> to
> increase its voltage and current limits (mainly more and higher-rated
>
> MOSFETS, freewheel diodes, and capacitors). Something like this may
> make
> a better basis for an "open source" motor controller (though there is
> no
> microcomputer, thus no source code).
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting how the "electric bus" is a screen capture from Internet
Explorer
Reverend Gadget wrote:
http://www.zqpt.com/english/yysl.asp
oops... was kind of late when I sent that out.
Gadget
I'm wondering what people think about these
batteries.
A set of these 150 amphour batteries look like they
would give a lot of range. It looks like three of
these would fit in about the same space as an
Orbital,
giving aproximately the same voltage. I understand
that this company is the Chinese partner to Altair
Nanotechnologies.
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 10, 2006, at 2:06 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
(if more expensive than the equally effective coat
hanger in a bucket of water ;^)
Hey, I resemble that remark <G>
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did business with Jay and although I did not visit
their site in South California, I am very satisfied
with the transaction.
I had high power 48V battery chargers and a lot of
EV material for sale, so he sent me a check and I
sent him a pallet with the material.
(NOTE: he sent me a blank check, so I could add
the shipping cost before cashing the check, if
you like to hear about trust.)
He told me about his vision for swappable modular
batteries and their business in high performance
(gas) motorcycles, which they want to supplement
with EV performance motorcycles, so they started
developing the performance battery first.
Sounds credible to me, but if you are in doubt then
I think you should check them out when they are
showcasing their stuff.
I'll leave it up to Jay to announce when and where,
because he asked to not disclose that.
Please do not judge based on someone holding a
handful of domains, as that is not really
substantial proof of doing bad business, unless
you can tie it to something that is substantial.
I am sure you can visit them and see what they
have and their plans, as they are nearby, both
on this list as well as physically.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lock Hughes
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: GoWheel.com and Lithium
Same street address and phone:
http://www.bikemenu.com/
http://www.deskmenu.com/
http://deskmenu.com/sub/bicycles.html
http://www.keykidfoundation.org/
http://www.drhealth.com/
All this and now batteries. And free spam too! Sweet!
Likely just a plot to finance the BikeaPack with its folding wheels:
http://www.bikeapack.com/
:)
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
--- Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a reminder to the credulous: GoWheel.com's head guy Jay Lashlee
> appears to be the same guy who was named as a co-conspirator in the
> indictment of several men in connection with a Ponzi scheme fraud
> called the "Genesis Fund" and went to prison in 2003. From the
> indictment:
>
> "A Ponzi scheme is a fraud scheme whereby investors are lured to a
> particular investment by the promise of high returns, but rather than
> investing the funds in the touted investment, the perpetrators of the
> scheme use the new investors' funds to pay money to other investors
> as false profits in order to maintain the appearance that the
> investment is earning the promised high rate of return. Collectively,
> the Genesis Fund investors entrusted over $80,000,000 with the
> defendants and their co-conspirators from in or about May 1998 to in
> or about June 2002."
>
> Due caution is advised.
>
> Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ouch!!
>
> So an EV size pack (one that will get 50 miles in the average
> conversion)
> will only cost you $54,000 (8 packs). Umm, I'll pass.
>
> > Look what I found...
> > http://www.gowheel.com/Batteries/PricesDoc.html
> >
> > - (expected ship date Nov. 14, 2006) Contact us at 949-497-3600 or
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [HERE]
> >
> > We will soon be offering Electric Vehicle Battery Packs:
> > GoWheel-9192: 1.475kwh @79.2 volts @ 560 amps, with BMS, Battery
> Box and
> > Cooling System
> >
> > Swap-out Battery Pack Modules for Electric Vehicles available with
> any
> > type connector or placement List: $7,500.00 Sale: $6,750.00
> > Dealer: $5,625.00
> > All prices + Shipping & Handling (approx. $29 FEDX Ground USA)
> Weight
> > approx. 37.21 pounds
> >
> > Configured Form Factors: Weight approx. 33.1 pounds + packing
> materials
> > 10.5 x 8.3 x 6.2 inches with standard posts, or marine posts, or
> > Anderson Connectors.
> >
> > Battery Packs are intended to be "Quick-Switch" ready for
> slide-in/out
> > of the battery/BMS (in/out of the included Battery Box installed in
> > vehicle). Packs can be grouped in series or parallel, but are
> > individually complete. Boxes are watertight up to top edge after
> closing
> > side (slide-out) door. Top contains low voltage cooling fans and
> are
> > water sealed to upward facing tubes (like 2 radiator hoses)
> attachable
> > to ram or outside air in/out ducts. Two fans included, one forcing
> high
> > flow in, and one fan forcing air out, temperature activated.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------
> >
> > OK, so they are selling a 80v 18Ah pack that will deliver 560A
> (30C)
> > weighing 33lbs (14kg) for between $5,625 and $6,750 depending on
> whether
> > you can convince them you are a dealer or not.
> >
> > So for a 160v 90Ah (similar to what's in my car) I'd be looking at
> 10
> > packs for US$56K (I'd become the Aus dealer :-) weighing 140kg.
> > So it would be capable of maxing out a LV-Z2K (say 150v x 2000A)
> giving
> > 300KW to the motor.
> > Ooh baby...
> >
> > I SO hope this is real...
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2006 2:58 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: GoWheel.com and Lithium
> >>
> >>
> >> Umm I have answers..
> >> but can not say.
> >>
> >> Lets see how well they do thier job.
> >>
> >> Madman
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Don Cameron"
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:52 AM
> >> Subject: GoWheel.com and Lithium
> >>
> >>
> >> > I just got spammed by GoWheel.com who claim that they will
> >> be selling EV
> >> > sized batteries from A123 with BMS within a couple of weeks.
> >> >
> >> > They gave no capacity specs or prices in their email nor on
> >> their web
> >> site.
> >> >
> >> > So A123 is really available? At what cost? Maybe someone
> >> in more of an
> >> OEM
> >> > position can get quantities (Victor?) I wonder what kind of
> BMS?
> >> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >> >
> >> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lock,
Yes, our number and address are on many websites. We
own about 455 websites. As for spam, we only sent a
single "background info release" to about 12 EV List
pioneers, most of which we have received valuable
guidance and have learned from.
DrHealth.com is owned by a friend of mine since 1977.
His children have worked with and for me since they
were kids. He is a retired fireman. DeskMenu.com is
a family site that is a Directory and sell nothing.
BikeMenu.com is a Photo Album of 8600 motorcycles and
sells a few ads. KeyKidFoundation does free surgery
on kids. Took in ZERO dollars, but has hooked up many
kids with a new face free of cleft paletes and
deformities. It has recently requested donations, but
there have been none, so far. ChopperPro.com and
FortuneFrames.com sell motorcycles, frames, and
motorcycle parts. Please buy some. TIMOTCA.org has
been a charitable organization with "Peace through
Art" as their mission for 26 years. In the last 8
years I have advised them, I have donated all efforts
unpaid.
BikeaPack is exciting to me and will require
investment dollars to go forward. When we make money,
some will go there and expand our patents. There are
many more sites. Money won't make me happy, though
$50k per year is adequate. My wife and five kids and
the excitement of building a successful company and
face repairs on poor kids have rewarded me. And
inventions, motorcycles, science, EVs, clean water,
solar, water power, music, travel, and movies.
If you want more proof, visit me, look at the
documents, call associates, and investigate the whole
truth.
Jay
--- Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Same street address and phone:
> http://www.bikemenu.com/
> http://www.deskmenu.com/
> http://deskmenu.com/sub/bicycles.html
> http://www.keykidfoundation.org/
> http://www.drhealth.com/
>
> All this and now batteries. And free spam too!
> Sweet!
>
> Likely just a plot to finance the BikeaPack with its
> folding wheels:
> http://www.bikeapack.com/
>
> :)
> tks
> Lock
> Toronto
> Human/Electric Hybrid
>
> --- Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Just a reminder to the credulous: GoWheel.com's
> head guy Jay Lashlee
> > appears to be the same guy who was named as a
> co-conspirator in the
> > indictment of several men in connection with a
> Ponzi scheme fraud
> > called the "Genesis Fund" and went to prison in
> 2003. From the
> > indictment:
> >
> > "A Ponzi scheme is a fraud scheme whereby
> investors are lured to a
> > particular investment by the promise of high
> returns, but rather than
> > investing the funds in the touted investment, the
> perpetrators of the
> > scheme use the new investors' funds to pay money
> to other investors
> > as false profits in order to maintain the
> appearance that the
> > investment is earning the promised high rate of
> return. Collectively,
> > the Genesis Fund investors entrusted over
> $80,000,000 with the
> > defendants and their co-conspirators from in or
> about May 1998 to in
> > or about June 2002."
> >
> > Due caution is advised.
> >
> > Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ouch!!
> >
> > So an EV size pack (one that will get 50 miles in
> the average
> > conversion)
> > will only cost you $54,000 (8 packs). Umm, I'll
> pass.
> >
> > > Look what I found...
> > > http://www.gowheel.com/Batteries/PricesDoc.html
> > >
> > > - (expected ship date Nov. 14, 2006) Contact us
> at 949-497-3600 or
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [HERE]
> > >
> > > We will soon be offering Electric Vehicle
> Battery Packs:
> > > GoWheel-9192: 1.475kwh @79.2 volts @ 560 amps,
> with BMS, Battery
> > Box and
> > > Cooling System
> > >
> > > Swap-out Battery Pack Modules for Electric
> Vehicles available with
> > any
> > > type connector or placement List: $7,500.00
> Sale: $6,750.00
> > > Dealer: $5,625.00
> > > All prices + Shipping & Handling (approx. $29
> FEDX Ground USA)
> > Weight
> > > approx. 37.21 pounds
> > >
> > > Configured Form Factors: Weight approx. 33.1
> pounds + packing
> > materials
> > > 10.5 x 8.3 x 6.2 inches with standard posts, or
> marine posts, or
> > > Anderson Connectors.
> > >
> > > Battery Packs are intended to be "Quick-Switch"
> ready for
> > slide-in/out
> > > of the battery/BMS (in/out of the included
> Battery Box installed in
> > > vehicle). Packs can be grouped in series or
> parallel, but are
> > > individually complete. Boxes are watertight up
> to top edge after
> > closing
> > > side (slide-out) door. Top contains low voltage
> cooling fans and
> > are
> > > water sealed to upward facing tubes (like 2
> radiator hoses)
> > attachable
> > > to ram or outside air in/out ducts. Two fans
> included, one forcing
> > high
> > > flow in, and one fan forcing air out,
> temperature activated.
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > OK, so they are selling a 80v 18Ah pack that
> will deliver 560A
> > (30C)
> > > weighing 33lbs (14kg) for between $5,625 and
> $6,750 depending on
> > whether
> > > you can convince them you are a dealer or not.
> > >
> > > So for a 160v 90Ah (similar to what's in my car)
> I'd be looking at
> > 10
> > > packs for US$56K (I'd become the Aus dealer :-)
> weighing 140kg.
> > > So it would be capable of maxing out a LV-Z2K
> (say 150v x 2000A)
> > giving
> > > 300KW to the motor.
> > > Ooh baby...
> > >
> > > I SO hope this is real...
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of Rich Rudman
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2006 2:58 AM
> > >> To: [email protected]
> > >> Subject: Re: GoWheel.com and Lithium
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Umm I have answers..
> > >> but can not say.
> > >>
> > >> Lets see how well they do thier job.
> > >>
> > >> Madman
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Don Cameron"
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:52 AM
> > >> Subject: GoWheel.com and Lithium
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > I just got spammed by GoWheel.com who claim
> that they will
> > >> be selling EV
> > >> > sized batteries from A123 with BMS within a
> couple of weeks.
> > >> >
> > >> > They gave no capacity specs or prices in
> their email nor on
> > >> their web
> > >> site.
> > >> >
> > >> > So A123 is really available? At what cost?
> Maybe someone
> > >> in more of an
> > >> OEM
> > >> > position can get quantities (Victor?) I
> wonder what kind of
> > BMS?
> > >> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> > >> >
> > >> > see the New Beetle EV project
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plus Excide, well, do we know whether *any* profits go toward Love
Activities, as with the ABATs? Some money at least goes to helping
their poor staff, seen here:
http://www.zqpt.com/english/axhd.asp
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
--- Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.zqpt.com/english/yysl.asp
>
> oops... was kind of late when I sent that out.
>
>
> Gadget
>
> I'm wondering what people think about these
> > batteries.
> > A set of these 150 amphour batteries look like they
> > would give a lot of range. It looks like three of
> > these would fit in about the same space as an
> > Orbital,
> > giving aproximately the same voltage. I understand
> > that this company is the Chinese partner to Altair
> > Nanotechnologies.
> >
> > Gadget
>
>
> visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
> leftcoastconversions.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ok, so I think I understand what you are hinting at here,
you stop charging when the weakest (hottest) battery is full, rather
than keep (over)charging until all of them are full.
That might work okay, but of course, you double the life of a bad cell
at the expense of less total capacity. One must do the math and get
some test results to see the optimum point of reduced lifetime vs
reduced capacity. And of course, one could tweak the amount of
overcharge to add a third variable to the equation.
Certainly for NiMH, just measuring the cell temperature and report it to
a central charger controller would be sufficient. I recommend using
temp to stop charging for R/C packs, and use voltage drop as failsafe.
That could be done pretty cheap, a temp sensor per cell and a simple MPU
with ADC to report the numbers. A cheap MPU has 8 ADC channels, so an
8-cell block would work best, or seperate ADC chips have 16 inputs.
If you have multiple strings, as you would need for 9aH cells, you could
physically migrate the weak cells into the same string, and somewhat
equalize them that way, each string would be more balanced. eventually
the weak string would degrade enough that you replace the cells, but you
would keep good strings with fuller capacity.
Jack
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
You are partilly right here.
But the main point is that doubling the weakest cell lifetime with less
cost than buying a new set of "weak cells" you are getting noticeable
benefits. (since you after all will have more and more failing cells
after cell replacements by straining the next "weakest link" more).
For hobbyist it's perhaps ok to tinker with the pack but for average
Jane it's just too much to pop up the hood once a month to replace bad
cell.
Since most of the other parts of the EV will have long lifetime and
service free life why should battery be any different ?
Small EV manufacturers will not be able to enable extencive service
network as great unwilling car OEMs can. So we should have as service
free system as possible.
In theory Lithium cells will work very long time without any service. In
real life we need to babysit these puppies well so they push their best
for us for much longer.
And as I said earlier.. It will not be that expencive to make "BMS" or
BMS in quantities. It can be less than $10 per 200 Ah cell. So is $210
for 200 ah 3,6 V cell too much ?
-Jukka
Jack Murray kirjoitti:
Jukka, interesting comments. But why not just let the bad cell fail,
and then replace it? It does need to be identified, that is critical,
but might be a lot more effective to do that than go to a lot of
trouble and expense to keep all the batteries equal. just a thought.
Jack
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
The most wrong way to manage Lion cells is to cure symptoms. The
cells behaviour can be predicted easily as long you know the
surroindings and enviromental conditions.
Rarely cells fail just by using them. You can easliy see the
potentially failing cell by measuring it before putting it evne in
the pack. I could say that 98% of all failed cells I have had have
resigned from their post due misuse. At the moment my experience is
limited to a bit over 1 000 000 Ahs in total of used and tested
lithium cells. (Co,Mn,Fe)
Most wrong way is to find the balance with voltage only. At least
with the cells I have used. Pack is badly out of balance if you
charge all cells to 100% SOC and start using them from there. Weakest
link will fail first and much sooner thant you expect. If you start
bypassing the current over the cells you will need heavy and perhaps
even expencive way to do it.
Voltage is a good reference but not only source of SOH information.
Track current, temperature and history data and it will work.
And now someone thinks it will be expencive. It can if not done
correctly.
Lets say you get the double mileage with same pack of cells with BMS.
Why ?
Without it the weakest link will use most highest individual DOD in
the pack. So it has lowest cycllic life too. Best cells have less and
less DOD in every cycle since their rate of death is much lower.
There will be 200 to 300 % difference in the lifetimes. With certain
conditions even more.
By adjusting the operational capacity window parameters you can
choose the rate of death. Higher cell voltages in end of charge
fastens the electrolyte dissolving. Also using heat to lower the
impedance during charging you can adjust the lifetime of the cells.
This is where I have the border between "BMS" (voltage limitations
with tempsensors) and BMS (historical database to define lifetime
trends and capacity based balancing to match the cyclic and
electrolyte lifetime)
Now the 10-20% added price on the plain Lithium cells has nicely been
justified by the doubled lifetime. That's the cost of BMS today.
If we would live in perfect world and all cells would be identical
and electrolyte would not be damaged by overcharging, all extra
energy put to cell would just transform to cold air or light or
cosmic radiation.. We would be able to make briefcases with 300 kWh
energy...
There are pending patents on the issues mentioned up here earlier and
when they are all public anyone with non-commercial activities can
find their ways to implement it.
I can see 30 kWh Lion packs with all necesary auxiliary devices
(3200W Chargers, computers, touch screens, controller boards for
pedals and contactors, cell electronics) with less than 15000 USD in
near future. VERY doable. When all gets to it's place you can even
half that price.
So what I do think about BMS over all (OEM world)... In future there
will not be a BMS sold separately.
It integrates to cell structures. OEM type manufacturing of the
technology is already existing. The "BMS" makers will still be there
and doing their thing. From there they do the very important work to
test the theories and existing technology. They do not eat anything
without chewing it throughly.
There are still at least 500 Lithium battery manufacturers world
wide. They sell to anyone they can. Small players will vanish or stay
in small markets. Big players buy all potential technology they see
and it evolves from there as any other industry.
Just my personal opinion...
-Jukka
Mark Fowler kirjoitti:
Hi all,
John's and Victor's Li-BMS systems monitor the voltage and bleed off
excess charge current.
They attach (in parallel) to an already connected battery string.
The circuit boards in these links actually connect the batteries into a
series string.
All current runs through the circuit itself, allowing the circuit to
monitor the current as well as voltage, and to disconnect the batteries
in fault situations.
This is fine for relatively low currents (like in R/C models or
bikes or
scooters) but doesn't scale up too easily without redesigning how the
whole thing works (i.e. where the current flows).
These systems are cheap because of mass production.
(I wonder how big the R/C market is in terms of total KWh of batteries
compared to the EV market...)
There are chips like http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2931
that do the bulk of the work for you - just wrap a circuit around them
to plug everything in to.
Once again - the problem is that these chips expect the current to be
flowing through them to do their job, so they only handle low currents.
I'm sure there's a way of building a circuit based on such a chip that
used a current divider so that the chip only saw a tiny fraction of the
real current, enabling it to handle EV currents and still give useful
voltage info and some overcharge regulation (through another heat-sunk
part of the circuit).
(I'm an electronics noob, so don't ask me how to do it :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2006 1:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: What is the future of Li BMS?
We already have people on this list developing lithium BMS for higher
amperage EV needs today. Victor should have something out soon.
Also, I
think John L has or is developing something.
I sure like these little modules, at $45 for the 10 cell unit,
needing 9
units for 312V, approx $500 for BMS is pretty good. Too bad the
max current
draw is only 27A.
I wonder, it the circuit can be modified easily to handle 300A or
even
1000A max draw?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: October 9, 2006 7:49 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: What is the future of Li BMS?
Look at these products and based on what you see, what do you
foresee on the
future price for items such as this and also, the reality and
likelihood of
us owning products like this?
Is THIS the beginnings of an off the shelf universal BMS system?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=911
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=912
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=910
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=909
Where do we go from here? What is to be done next? Do items like
this do
anything for us; or are we no further along now then we were?
If this item is nothing; then what will be something and when will
that be
and what will it be?
I see a little PCB and silicon in those pics. How is the imagined
BMS in
your head different then these? How is it better? What does it do
different? How much does it cost and is it cheaper? How will a
BMS ever be
cheaper? What components are currently not available now that need
to be?
How will any prices go down? You know what component prices are.
Have
prices for any components ever gone down? When and how much?
Is BMS a reality or a farce? Will or will not happen in our
lifetimes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> exactly. to wit...check out these for fun.
>
> http://rqriley.com/xr2.htm
> http://rqriley.com/xr3.htm
>
> the xr3 is a monocoque carbon fibre hybrid. anyone know anything about
> this one.
>
The XR3 doesn't look to have much window space -- poor visibility?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's a really good idea. If we had an updated evalbum that took
more specific specifications from the owners and was able to take a
regular email or other dump of data and calculate out how efficient
different motors, batteries, setups were . . . no questions then
what the better money was. Well, besides aerodynamics,
transmissions, wear and tear on brakes, tires . . .
Still, a very good idea if some standard could be agreed upon.
Ian
On Oct 10, 2006, at 1.44 pm, Chris Sutton wrote:
I don't have a 914, but I do travel about 22 miles each way to work
each day on the interstate and get going upwards of 70 to 75mph.
I have a 1974 Toyota Celica, which is a farily light small car, with a
120v pack (15 8v trojans), and a Curtis 550amp controller. It also
has a 5 speed transmission (which I think the 914 has).
By average power requirement, what exactly are you looking for? Amps
drawn at 65mph? I can check tomorrow, but for me my guess is between
250 and 350.
On a related note, I have been thinking about how to capture better
data about power requirements and efficiencies.
Currently, I'm keeping a log book of how far I travel each day, and
when I charge at night, I record the total number of kwh needed to
recharge the batteries (using a kill-a-watt meter).
http://www.chriskate.net/electriccar.html
What if you had a small computer, which is reading the pack voltage,
amp draw, gps location (and calculating rough speed, elevation
change), and also amps getting put back into the batteries (charging
or regen), and recording this data once every minute or so (or more
often).
Then you could take this data and do some very insightful analysis. I
could do all of this, except I don't know how to read the pack
voltage, and amp draws into a computer (linux). There has to be some
external IO things, which can plug into a serial or USB port. Anyone
ever done this or can point me in the right direction to get it done?
Hell, you could even set the system up to plug into the internet from
time to time and upload the data into a central place (evalbum?).
On 10/10/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any 914 pilots out there that can run a quick test and tell us
what the
power requirements are on flat level ground with no wind?
Preferably an average power requirement taken going both
directions on the
same stretch or road.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
I'm planning to use an isolated DC-DC to power a couple of op-amps and
voltage-to-frequency converters at the traction pack voltage - one each
for pack voltage and battery current - , then run these frequency
signals through opto-isolators to the 12V auxiliary side of things.
That's exactly my plan! Great minds think alike. :-)
My goal is a simpler, poor-man's version of an E-meter. (It won't have
Peukert correction, though).
You really should add it, especially for lead-acid packs. The single
most useful number it can provide is State of Charge. Without the
Peukert correction, simple amphour or watthour data is all but useless.
But, you've got me thinking I might be missing something. The DC-DC I
hoped to use is TI's DCP010505DBP
Be very cautious. Get the data sheet, and read it carefully (including
the fine print). Often, the "1 kv isolation" is a one-time, one-second
test, and they specifically tell you not to retest it, or to apply
anything close to this voltage on a continuous basis. Internally, most
of these units wind the primary and secondary right on top of each
other, with nothing but the enamel insulation between them. A hint that
this is the case is the relatively high 3.8pf capacitance between input
and output.
If it is UL listed, that means that UL actually tested sample devices,
and continues to spot check them in case they cheapen the product.
However, you have to know *which* UL standard it meets; often, the
manufacturer specifies some trivially-easy UL standard.
I'm not sure what you mean by "poor isolation". Is your problem that
the resistance between the two sides isn't high enough (DC leakage)?
Or, is the capacitance across the transformer too high? Or, is the
allowable voltage between the two systems not high enough?
The problem is that many people use non-isolated battery chargers. These
essentially connect the propulsion pack straight to the AC line. 1000
volt spikes on the AC line are a daily occurrence, and peaks up to 6000
volts can occur during thunderstorms. UL standards for products on the
120vac line require that they survive at least 1250vac for 1 minute
without damage, and no unsafe failures if this is exceeded (it's OK if
the product breaks, but it can't catch fire or cause a short to ground).
Do you think I'm likely to run into trouble using this DC-DC converter?
I haven't looked at the specs, but its physical size warns me that it
probably won't pass.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I've only seen a few RQriley vehicles, every one of them had cracked
fiberglass. Usuaully around door/window openings.
I'll grant you that well made fiberglass can be fairly light and strong,
but very few people build fiberglass that well.
The second point, steel body panels aren't all that heavy either. I don't
have one handy right now, but I've ballanced a fender on a finger tip
before, so they can't be all that heavy. I understand that old cars
(1950s and before) were made out of heavy duty sheetmetal, but today cars
are made to crumple so the metals thinner.
The only fairly heavy part I can think of is the hood, and even that's not
all that heavy. Most of the weight is because hoods are designed to fold
up on impact, instead of decapitating the driver. The fiberglass hoods
I've seen that are designed to meet the same requirements, are every bit
as heavy as the metal ones.
> Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>> Good fiberglass is a high strength composite, using carefully woven
>> fabrics made of fiberglass (or kevlar or carbon fiber), and epoxy
>> resins. It winds up mostly fiber, much thinner, lighter, more flexible,
>> and far stronger. Often it is not solid, but uses thin outer layers with
>> a foam or honeycomb core.
>
> exactly. to wit...check out these for fun.
>
> http://rqriley.com/xr2.htm
> http://rqriley.com/xr3.htm
>
> the xr3 is a monocoque carbon fibre hybrid. anyone know anything about
> this one.
>
> -mike
>
> FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If your battery amps are so high, then my S10
has 1/2 power draw at 60 than your Celica at 65,
so I think you either need to align it or you
will see much lower draw.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chris Sutton
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Request Porsche 914 power requirements at 65mph
I don't have a 914, but I do travel about 22 miles each way to work
each day on the interstate and get going upwards of 70 to 75mph.
I have a 1974 Toyota Celica, which is a farily light small car, with a
120v pack (15 8v trojans), and a Curtis 550amp controller. It also
has a 5 speed transmission (which I think the 914 has).
By average power requirement, what exactly are you looking for? Amps
drawn at 65mph? I can check tomorrow, but for me my guess is between
250 and 350.
On a related note, I have been thinking about how to capture better
data about power requirements and efficiencies.
Currently, I'm keeping a log book of how far I travel each day, and
when I charge at night, I record the total number of kwh needed to
recharge the batteries (using a kill-a-watt meter).
http://www.chriskate.net/electriccar.html
What if you had a small computer, which is reading the pack voltage,
amp draw, gps location (and calculating rough speed, elevation
change), and also amps getting put back into the batteries (charging
or regen), and recording this data once every minute or so (or more
often).
Then you could take this data and do some very insightful analysis. I
could do all of this, except I don't know how to read the pack
voltage, and amp draws into a computer (linux). There has to be some
external IO things, which can plug into a serial or USB port. Anyone
ever done this or can point me in the right direction to get it done?
Hell, you could even set the system up to plug into the internet from
time to time and upload the data into a central place (evalbum?).
On 10/10/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Any 914 pilots out there that can run a quick test and tell us what the
> power requirements are on flat level ground with no wind?
> Preferably an average power requirement taken going both directions on the
> same stretch or road.
--- End Message ---
