EV Digest 6002
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) What do think about this batteris... could they be used
by =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Andrej_=A9kvorc?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EVDL breaks old record for number of posts per day!
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Composites, Rileys cars, Corvette, Re: Lighter Porsche 914
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Cruise control?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: $25,000 Performance Car?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Intelect 9 ah D cells.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) air suspension - Roland, got your ears on?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: What is the future of Li BMS?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: lee's emeter companion?- DC-DC isoloation?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Twisting cables together
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Jiffy lube...
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
could someone tell me would this types of batteries www.alpha.com be god
for ev ...
i like this one "Operating Temperature Range - Discharge: -40 to
what would be expected range with 10 HP engine 96 V system (800 kg car
weight, maximum car weight 1200 kg - hyundai atos or getz)
here are only two types of batteries... they also have nickle cadmium at
theyr web site...
here are AlphaCell Gel
http://www.alpha.com/files/documents/AlphaCell%20AC%2011_A02.pdf
AlphaCell Premium Gel
http://www.alpha.com/files/documents/AlphaCell%20AC%2011_A02.pdf
* Designed for outdoor broadband applications
* 100% Runtime capacity "out-of-box"--- no cycling required
* Silver Alloy provides long product life
AlphaCell Premium Gel
Specifications
General
AlphaCell Premium Gel
Service Life: Extended
Runtime (minutes): 210, 180 & 85
Sealed VRLA: Valve regulated lead acid
Heat Resistant: Extreme
Hydrogen Emission: Low
Terminals: L-type with .28" hole
Copper Alloy 10-32 insert on 85 only
Silver Alloy: GXL-HP
CA/SN Alloy: GXL
Cells Per Unit: 6
Voltage Per Unit: 12.8
Operating Temperature Range
Discharge: -40 to 71°C
(-40 to 160°F)
Charge (with temp compensation): -23 to 60°C (-9.4 to 140°F)
Float Charging Voltage: 13.5 to 13.8VDC
AC Ripple Charger: 0.5% RMS or 1.5% of float charge voltage recommended
for best results. Max. allowed = 4% P-P
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--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Roderick Wilde" <evparts.com>
>Subject: Re: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=response
>In Arizona golf carts may be licensed and operated on all roads except
>freeways. You have to keep to the side of the road so as not to impede
>traffic. I am not quite sure what they would think if a golf cart was
>keeping up with traffic. I seem to remember that there was a max speed in
>the law.
>Anyone from Arizona want to chime in here for clarification.
I will:
Arizona does allow golf carts to be registered and driven on streets that
have a 35 Mph
speed limit or less. The rub is that most of the Phoenix metro area's major
streets have 40 to 45 Mph speed limits. You may cross one of these 40 Mph
streets but not drive on it. Unfortunately the only streets that cross the
freeways are major ones with 40 Mph limits. This restricts you to one side
of the I-17 freeway which divides the city from East to West and in most
places to your side of the canals for the same reason. That means I can't
go from my home in Glendale to Scottsdale.
Sun City which is a retirement community on the Northwest side of the
valley has a maximum speed limit on even major streets of 35 Mph. Golf
carts are used just like a second car and drive in any lane they want, but
they do have lights, horn and sometimes turn signals. They have as much
right to the left lane as anyone driving a Hummer. There are many carports
in Sun City with an EZ-GO parked next to a Cadillac.
>I know that Peachtree City, Georgia has over 9000 registered electric golf
carts in
>a town of 30,000. That is about one per family. Here is a good article on
>that: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1015/p01s02-ussc.html
>Roderick Wilde
BTW: Peachtree City requires developers to include backyard access to the
cart trails in any new development plans, and of course, their fair share
of added paths.
(The carts are not driven on the streets, but on a network of backyard
paved trails.)
Jim
'93 Dodge TEVan
'88 Fiero ESE
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
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--- Begin Message ---
Suggest a new method for subject titles eg Series motor/faulty
commutator/fixes. This will speed up deletions if there is no interest.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter, Lee and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lighter Porsche 914
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:37:23 -0700 (MST)
>While I've only seen a few RQriley vehicles, every one of
>them had cracked fiberglass. Usuaully around door/window
>openings.
The composite strucure in Riley's car is little more
than an air fairing with little stength. Not only that but
one off glass projects like these and several other plans
designs take about 1,000 hrs just to do the finish, so
dispite over 40,000 Riley's plans sold, less than 50 have
been built to finish I've been able to find and been looking
for 25 yrs!!
Though it would be easy to convert the plans to strong
bent panel GF sheets made on an inexpensive flat mold using
formica as the mold surface. Only needing foam for the
corners. Or Riley could have FG bodies made for sale but he
hasn't even though he had the hard part, a finished car to
take one from. It takes a just $3k to do that and you get
50-200 bodies per mold so very profitable. So I must
conclude he just doesn't want them to get finished, just
sell more plans.
The Trimuter is dangerous as it's CG, suspension makes
it roll over easily as the prototype did.
>
>I'll grant you that well made fiberglass can be fairly
>light and strong, but very few people build fiberglass that
>well.
Several hunderd thousand at least do boats, planes
that way and just not hard to learn. It's really like
cooking, you just have to practice some like building a
dinghy first.
>
>The second point, steel body panels aren't all that heavy
>either.
But the back up structure is way heavier. And ones
that thin easily dent. And I can make one as light and
strong in composites. Just because the Corvette's are
slightly heavier does not mean all composites are.
And the Corvette's panels are not made wet layup but
another process for mas production. All these mass composite
production methods seem to greatly increase a composites
vehicle's weight by a lot.
Our Sunrise body/chassis weighs much more than it
should because dispite it being made mosly in carbon fiber,
weights almost as much as a steel body. But a good hand wet
layup in lower tech FG, Kevlar, could cut it's weight in
almost 1/2 and what we will be doing. Also we don't have the
$200,000 it wuld take to build, use RTM molds.
The Freedom EV's monocoque body/chassis is around 250
lbs and the same size for crash protection as a compact car
though taller, as big as my Rabbit. A steel version of the
same strength would weigh 2x's that.
I don't have one handy right now, but I've
>ballanced a fender on a finger tip before, so they can't be
>all that heavy. I understand that old cars (1950s and
>before) were made out of heavy duty sheetmetal, but today
>cars are made to crumple so the metals thinner.
>The only fairly heavy part I can think of is the hood, and
>even that's not all that heavy. Most of the weight is
>because hoods are designed to fold up on impact, instead of
>decapitating the driver. The fiberglass hoods I've seen
>that are designed to meet the same requirements, are every
>bit as heavy as the metal ones.
You have seen some very poor hoods then. Your
arguement on safety falls flat as it's much easier to design
a safer, lighter composite hood than a metal one that will
hold it's shape. They had to be strong enough to handle the
stress of the springs needed to hold up their heavier
weights. And why now few cars use springs anymore, instead
use prop rods.
As far as the Corvette being an EV, it's when
stripped, doesn't weigh as much as most in it's class,
especally after the ICE bits are removed. And it's better
weight carrying ability, good room for batteries, makes it
at leat a good EV candidate. It's not going to knock off the
White Zombie but will beat a lot of cars out there.
Both it and the Porsche 914 can easily be improved
aero wise to very good
>
>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>> Good fiberglass is a high strength composite, using
>>> carefully woven fabrics made of fiberglass (or kevlar or
>>> carbon fiber), and epoxy resins. It winds up mostly
>>> fiber, much thinner, lighter, more flexible, and far
>stronger. Often it is not solid, but uses thin outer layers
>>> with a foam or honeycomb core.
Good layups, strength can be had with polyester
resins if the FG is used right.
CF when woven into a cloth loses all it's stiffness
due to the bent fibers becoming springs instead of rods and
extremely hard to wet out. Rarely is woven fabric better,
only Kevlar, Aramid, can use it well. 90% of my FG is
unroven, called biaxial, instead the layers are stitched
together eliminating the space resin use to be soaked up
between the woven strands. This saves much weight and
increases strength due to fiber density. The rest is to
prevent print thru of the fabrics weave thru the gelcoat. on
in my case paint because it's lighter.
>>
>> exactly. to wit...check out these for fun.
>>
>> http://rqriley.com/xr2.htm
>> http://rqriley.com/xr3.htm
>>
>> the xr3 is a monocoque carbon fibre hybrid. anyone know
>> anything about this one.
Not yet as he hasn't released any info. He was
hired by Myer's Motors to come up with a Sparrow/NMG
replacement. BTW they, 2f1r wheeled, are all illegal in
Myer's state of Ohio and CT!!
But if he uses the same construction methods as
his other cars, few will ever get built and by now, one has
to think that was his idea. It's too low anyway to be safe
on our streets.
Jerry Dycus
>>
>> -mike
>>
>> FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I know an ACP Saturn that has cruise control. Just a pushbutton to
activate it. Then a tiny knob to dial in the speed. It has amazing
accuracy. I've often wondered how it was connected. Seems to me it's
put in place of the pot box. I suspect with ACP it's not that way. But
it's highly useful for measuring terrain losses due to slope. You can
set the car to a speed that will get you to your destination with a
low pack, because the BMS lets you know the remaining ah's and useage
while driving.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Has anyone implemented a cruise control? Just curious if it is
possible,
> and how
> people have done it in the past.
>
> Thanks.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to
Windows Live
> Spaces
>
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't been following the thread about AC motor control but I have mentioned
this before and will mention it again. The control bit is not a problem, just
check out this site:
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en010071&part=DM183011
I have one of these boards and it seems to me that the control is all there
ready to go. You just need to upgrade the IGBTs (and maybe drivers) to EV (say
20KW) power ratings. It can be done.
The big problem is the motor, three phase EV motors aren't that cheap or easy to
come by.
Anyway, just thought I'd mention it, back to sundays of building my A123 BMS.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Jack Murray wrote:
A 3300 vette has 700lbs of motor, another 300lbs of trans, and
probably another 200lbs to remove. So we add 250lb motor and 742lbs
batteries, the car goes back to its original weight or even less.
Jack, your numbers are way off. One of the heaviest of the Corvette V8
engines, a big block, weighed 503 lb with flywheel and clutch, about 200
lbs. less than that 700 lb. figure...that's a bunch of weight to be
incorrect about. Most of the Corvette V8s in the model years referenced
weighed even less, as in another 100 lbs. less! The average weight of
Corvette V8 engines hovers in the 390 to 430 lb. range. As to that 300
lb. tranny, again...off by a lot, as in 150-200 lbs.! You then said
'probably another 200 lbs to remove', but the exhaust, brackets,
radiator and a few other small items don't account for even 100 lbs., so
you're off by another 100 lbs. The converted car is right back where I
stated at around 3700-3750 lbs.
A car that runs circles around other cars on the racetrack in stock
form....
With exception noted for the dramatically improved Vettes from 2002 to
present, the Corvette usually fairs pretty bad on the race track when
pitted against other cars in its category. Only the most recent Vettes
from '02 to present have shown they 'finally' handle as one would expect
an expensive sports car to do. Heavy cars corner worse than lighter
cars, and Corvettes are too heavy. A properly set up light sedan with
suspension goodies can beat a Corvette in the curves, and it will do it
at a fraction of the price. In fact, it's great sport to go to the
races and be in the crowd with jaded Vette fans to watch their faces as
their beloved Vettes get whipped by hopped up Datsuns and BMW sedans.
Jack, here's some Wayland history for you...
My oldest brother 'was' a Corvette owner and lover...he no longer is.
The coolest one he had, was his cool white 327, 350 hp convertible '66.
I took him to the 2.5 Trans -Am Challenge races here in Portland, where
he saw light and nimble Datsun 240Z's trouncing the Vettes around the
course. At the same time they were running this 'A' class, B production
class was also on the track....the class where the killer BRE Datsun 510
sedans raced. The legendary BRE 510 sedans were lapping the Vettes, even
though they weren't even racing against them! Jack, I doubt you even
know what BRE stood for, so I'll educate you...Brock Racing
Enterprises...the same Pete Brock who was Carol Shelby's right hand man.
BRE squeezed an amazing 298 hp from the Datsun's normally aspirated 1800
OHC 4 cylinder, and in the trimmed down 510 sedans that weighed 1550
lbs. in racing form, the acceleration was unbelievable! Corning power
was astounding as well. Coming out of turn nine at PIR, the Vettes would
plow and under-steer as they struggled to do better than 75 exiting that
mean curve....after blowing past the Vettes in this turn, the 510s hit
90 and exited with both back tires smoking as they simply walked away
from the Vettes down the straights. How do I know this? I was there,
and, the announcer was giving track speeds and was screaming at the top
of his lungs in excitement over how badly the BRE Datsuns were whupping
those Vettes! On other races, Datsun 1200's modified for racing in C
production also flew around the Vettes in the corners and on the
straights, too!
I bet that I have years more experience working on and around cars set
up for track racing, auto cross, rally, and yes, street racing, than you
have, Jack. In another life, I was heavily involved with an autocross
Datsun 510 and helped work on its suspension mods....the car routinely
won its events, and yes, it even beat many Corvettes around the circuit.
The Corvette guys always assumed their horsepower would overcome their
car's handling shortcomings...they were proved wrong, over and over. The
Vette has always been over-weight, and until recent years, has always
suffered from poor weight distribution. Lean, light sedans have
routinely embarrassed the Corvette on race tracks everywhere.
Please Jack, I don't need lessons about handling!
One more thing....when Tim and I took White Zombie to race the cops at
PIR on their 'officer's evasive and pursuit driving training day', the
cops had two high performance machines at the track in addition to the
cop cars. One was a stock, $45,000 405 hp Z06 Corvette, the other was a
stock $28,000 MazdaSpeed sedan with a 286 hp 4 banger and rally type
suspension. It was a fun day, for sure for all of us. At one time, they
had the Vette and the Mazda on the track at the same time...the Mazda
left the Corvette in all the corners, and in the straightaway, too. In
fact, as the day rolled on and the pursuit excersizes got more intense,
they parked the Corvette and relied on the hot Mazda sedan as it was the
hardest vehicle to keep up with....so much for the Vette being 'A car
that runs circles around other cars on the racetrack in stock form'! The
cops all raved about the neutral handling of the Mazda, there wasn't
much mention about the parked Corvette.
now has even less weight and more low-end torque, and can do 60-0
braking better than most.
The weight thing is mute as explained. Jack, you are misguided about the
torque issue, too. The '84-'91 Corvette's average V8 torque is right
around 300 ft. lbs., but it gets magnified through the gear selection of
the tranny. The AC motor you plan to use has about the same torque
level, but minus a tranny to help it, the end result is the electric
Vette's low end torque sent to the rear end diff. will actually be
substantially less, not more. Twin DC motors with a Z2K? Yes, then the
electric Vette would have way more torque over the ICE/tranny
combo...2000 motor amps does this just fine....a paltry 360 motor amps
into the AC motor can't come close. Even with a 350kw extreme torque DC
setup, in a 3700 lb. vehicle it would still only run high 13's, though
at least that's in the 'performance car' territory. Matt's 240SX weighs
about 3100 lbs., and with twin 9's and 2000 amps of torque-producing
juice, it runs low 13's and is knocking on the 12's door. I believe his
car has about 300 kw of power...double what your AC system would be
rated at, and his car is about 500 lbs. lighter than the Vette will be.
Has John run his car around a racetrack, other than just going straight?
Where is this coming from? What does my car have to do with the
discussion at hand? I never mentioned, nor referenced my car in my first
response to Jack's post. Even though I never brought it up, since Jack
is making this personal now...
White Zombie's present mission is to change the perception that all EVs
are slow, dull, and boring. I do this at the drag track, thus my car is
set up to best accomplish that mission. Even with its suspension
optimized for the drag track however, my car handles well on the street
and it takes corners nice and flat. Yes Jack, it has been around many
tracks. It's been pushed hard around PIR both by myself and by Tim
Brehm, who commented how surprised he was that it indeed, did pretty
well out there...he especially had fun exiting corners with both rear
tires smoking :-) White Zombie has been driven hard on a few other
tracks as well...no spin-outs, no roll-overs, and great power oversteer
cornering. I've had other Datsun sedans purposefully set up for handling
(White Zombie is not) with lowered suspension, fat front and rear Nissan
Comp. sway bars, Koni shocks, trick racing springs, strut tower bracing,
enlarged rotors and hi pro brake systems, etc., and they would eat
pretty much any Corvette in the corners.
Jack, I've been involved in more than 100 electric conversions...how
many do you have under your belt? Do you 4 or 5...do you even have one?
I know a thing or two about before and after conversion weight, a thing
or two about 'delivered horsepower', and a thing or two about batteries.
But that's OK...go ahead and build your 3700 lb. Vette and put in a low
torque AC power train without a tranny, and go ahead and power it with
those D cells that magically don't sag even when discharged at 10C (I
tested a NiMH cell at just 4C and it sagged from 1.35V to .92V
instantly). Take it to an NHRA track and run a few quarter mile sprints
and report back on how it did. I'll stand by my predictions that it will
weigh about 3700 lbs., that it's 0-60 time will be more like a tepid
economy car than a performance car, and that it's 1/4 mile ET will be
more like a diesel VW bus than a performance car.
See Ya....John Wayland
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3.85809 is the weight of one string( each cell is 175 gram) at 12v equaling
9ah. Just multiply by the ah you need. It would be in units of 9ah. So an
Optima sized pack would be around 23 pounds & 54 ah. 60 batteries. 20
batteries or about 8 pounds for a BB 17 ah sized battery that is 18ah for
the d cells. At 5 dollars per cell that is 300 per battery. At 10 dollars
per cell that is 600 dollars or what you'd spend for a used Panasonic NiMh
from a Rav4. Lawrence Rhodes.....
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--- Begin Message ---
I goofed on the weight & ah of their pack.
But, by referring to capacity of Optima battery, you could get (in theory)
a 50-cell pack (10s x 5p config) with 12V 45Ah at estimated weight ~10Kg (22
pounds). Given a careful housing design, this pack could be discharged at
50A continuously, and be recharged at 3.6A per 10-cell sub-group.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:11 AM
Subject: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
> 3.85809 is the weight of one string( each cell is 175 gram) at 12v
equaling
> 9ah. Just multiply by the ah you need. It would be in units of 9ah. So
an
> Optima sized pack would be around 23 pounds & 54 ah. 60 batteries. 20
> batteries or about 8 pounds for a BB 17 ah sized battery that is 18ah for
> the d cells. At 5 dollars per cell that is 300 per battery. At 10
dollars
> per cell that is 600 dollars or what you'd spend for a used Panasonic NiMh
> from a Rav4. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
you repeat the same circuit N times by using a little PC board.
Mike Phillips wrote:
Yes, I planned on a PCB in the pack. Surface mount for sure.
Do you really want to build 28 surface mount boards? These particular
parts don't lend themselves to it. The resistors dissipate heat. Leaded
LEDs are more common (easier to find appropriate parts). Surface mount
optocouplers put the leads so close that you lose most of the isolation.
In my previous opto testing I had a pot for each module in the battery
box, then another pot in the display box. That way I can make the
output of each opto the same as well as have the dash pots for making
the brightness of each led the same.
But the parts all change with temperature, and they drift over time.
Cheap pots themselves drift a lot. Do you want to go back in every so
often and readjust all your pots?
what really matters is getting the info the the dash without stringing
another transatlantic cable :)
I did look at the multiplex circuit in the original post but I could
not get the ascii characters to align to make any sense of the
schematic. I cut and pasted it to Notepad to no avail.
OK, a text description may make it clearer.
Each battery has a module with an "overvoltage" and an "undervoltage"
optocoupler output, and a 15-pin female connector (say, a 15-pin D
connector). The pins of the D connector are:
1 - row 1 9 - column A
2 - row 2 10 - column B
3 - row 3 11 - column C
4 - row 4 12 - column D
5 - row 5 13 - column E
6 - row 6 14 - column F
7 - row 7 15 - column G
8 - row 8
Each of your 28 modules is identical. The emitters of both optocouplers
connects to columns A-G (pins 9-15). The collector of the Undervoltage
optocoupler connects to Rows 1-3-5-7. The collector of the Overvoltage
optocoupler connects to Rows 2-4-6-8.
Your cable is a long piece of 15-conductor ribbon cable, with 15-pin
insulation displacement male D connectors crimped onto it, convenient
for each of your 25 modules. At each male connector, cut off pins to
"key" it as follows:
- At battery#1, cut off all pins except Column A, Row 1, and Row 2.
- At battery#2, cut off all pins except Column A, Row 3, and Row 4.
- At battery#3, cut off all pins except Column A, Row 5, and Row 6.
- At battery#4, cut off all pins except Column A, Row 7, and Row 8.
- At battery#5, cut off all pins except Column B, Row 1, and Row 2.
- At battery#6, cut off all pins except Column B, Row 3, and Row 4.
- At battery#7, cut off all pins except Column B, Row 5, and Row 6.
- At battery#8, cut off all pins except Column B, Row 7, and Row 8.
- At battery#9, cut off all pins except Column C, Row 1, and Row 2.
etc.
This wires all 56 of your optocouplers as a 7x8 matrix. Your dashboard
display unit can scan this matrix, to read out the status of all the
optocouplers. The basic technique requires 7 active-low drivers that
ground the 8 columns, one at a time); 8 active-high drivers that pull
the 8 rows to +5v, one at a time, and of course 56 LEDs to indicate the
status.
Your 56 LEDs are wired in a 7x8 matrix, identical to the one for the
optocouplers. For example:
- Battery#1 undervoltage LED cathode to Row 1, anode to Row 1 driver.
- Battery#1 overvoltage LED cathode to Row 2, anode to Row 1 driver.
- Battery#2 undervoltage LED cathode to Row 3, anode to Row 1 driver.
- Battery#2 overvoltage LED cathode to Row 4, anode to Row 1 driver.
- Battery#3 undervoltage LED cathode to Row 5, anode to Row 1 driver.
- Battery#3 overvoltage LED cathode to Row 6, anode to Row 1 driver.
- Battery#4 undervoltage LED cathode to Row 7, anode to Row 1 driver.
- Battery#4 overvoltage LED cathode to Row 8, anode to Row 1 driver.
- Battery#5 undervoltage LED cathode to Row 1, anode to Row 2 driver.
- Battery#5 overvoltage LED cathode to Row 2, anode to Row 2 driver.
- Battery#6 undervoltage LED cathode to Row 3, anode to Row 2 driver.
- Battery#6 overvoltage LED cathode to Row 4, anode to Row 2 driver.
- Battery#7 undervoltage LED cathode to Row 5, anode to Row 2 driver.
- Battery#7 overvoltage LED cathode to Row 6, anode to Row 2 driver.
- Battery#8 undervoltage LED cathode to Row 7, anode to Row 2 driver.
- Battery#8 overvoltage LED cathode to Row 8, anode to Row 2 driver.
The dash display's Row and Column drivers can be something like a pair
of 4017 CMOS 1-of-10 counters, with active-low drivers for the Columns,
and active-high drivers for the Rows. Clock the counters fast enough to
avoid flicker, but not so fast that cable capacitance causes the data
from one LED to bleed into the next. If you run the clock very slow for
testing, you should see it select a Row, and the 8 associated LEDs light
up (depending on optocoupler status), then the next 8 LEDs, then the
next, and so on.
You could obviously use a microcomputer to do all this at the dash end.
Depending on your skill, it might take a day or a year to get working.
The discrete logic solution should be working in a day or two. :-)
Does this make sense?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I've lowered the fiero back to the ground, and noted the differences in ride
height, and I've contacted a couple of spring vendors for quotes, but I was
still wondering about using an air system.
I was wondering if Roland could give more details of his air suspension system,
including the vendor, and whether it was a selection from stock products or of
it had to be custom engineered.
I know these systems allow the adjustment of ride height, but I was wondering
more about the ride and handling. How is that?
Did you add this to a stock El Camino suspension, or are you using units that
replace the stock springs and shocks?
Also, how much space do the pump and valving take up?
Lastly, how much did it cost?
Also, if anyone else uses an air system, please let us know the details.
Thanks!!!
PS I wound up with 19 batteries for 228V. For now at least. Need to
reassemble the interior and instrumentation to be able to move the car, though.
Z1K and Warp 9" with stock 4 speed.
David Brandt
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--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
I'm very familiar with NiMH, not so much with Lithium, and in particular
I'm looking at $6 cells, so the cost to manage them can't be too much or
its not a good strategy. I agree if you can increase life significantly
the added cost would be worth it; I'd want to see some real data to back
it up, double the life seems like a big stretch, maybe if the bad cells
don't get replaced a double might be possible, but that is somewhat
trickery by comparing to a worst case.
I built a BMS that scans the 12 batteries in my pack of 12v Concorde
AGMs. Without BMS, most people only get 1-2 years life out these
batteries. With BMS, mine are now over 7 years old, and weak but working.
My BMS check each battery, and then charges each at up to 15 amps for a
time that depends on the voltage differences between them. It does this
while driving, charging, and for a short time when parked.
I had one battery fail (down to 16ah when the rest were 30-40ah). It
took a while before I noticed; the car still drove fine with the bad
battery, because the BMS was spending almost all its time charging it
from the other 11 to "prop it up".
When I did replace it, the new battery had significantly more capacity
than the rest of the old pack. This is usually a problem; the new
battery soon gets "beaten down" because it gets overcharged by the extra
charging needed to bring the older batteries up to "full". But with this
BMS, the new battery survived fine.
Last year, I had a second battery fail. I didn't have any more spares of
the original type, so I replaced it with a newer but smaller AGM. Mixing
battery types is also an invitation for problems; but so far, the BMS
has given each of the (now rather widely mismatched) batteries
appropriate amounts of charging.
Since I balance continuously, batteries with lower amphour capacity get
charged while driving, because their voltage falls faster. This has the
effect that all batteries reach "dead" at about the same time. Thus, it
defeats the "weakest link" effect of having to stop driving with one
dead battery and the rest still with plenty of charge.
So, I'm pretty confident that aggressive battery balancing can
significantly extend the life of a pack.
In any case, ICE's have to change their oil every few months, maybe we
can get Jiffy Lube to change their name to Jiffy Cell?
Yes, you could just monitor all the batteries/cells, and replace them
one at a time as needed. But this is very labor intensive. If you have
large numbers of cells/batteries, you'd soon wind up changing them on an
almost continuous basis.
My first EV had a pack of twelve 6v floodeds. As I murdered them from
various forms of ignorance and abuse :-) I would replace them one at a
time. This soon produced a garage full of half-shot batteries with
various things wrong with them, and constantly throwing batteries in/out
to get the best half-good pack. This got old fast!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
Lee,
Some time ago you mentioned using 1/8 or 1/4 watt metal film resistors
for fuses at each battery. Does it matter if it's metal film or could
it be carbon? Is it more of a size issue that determines the
"fuseability" of a resistor?
Carbon composition resistors are good for handling huge overloads
*without* failing. You do *NOT* want to use them as fuses, because you
can't predict when they'll finally fail.
Carbon film resistors have a ceramic tube with a layer of carbon
deposited on it as the resistance element. They will work as fuses, but
tend to change resistance value drastically as a consequence of heating.
Don't use them as fuses if you depend on their resistance value to
make the circuit work, because a near-fusing even will permantently
change their resistance.
Metal film resistors make the best fuse resistors. Nothing happens to
their resistance until the metal hits its melting point; then it tends
to vaporize almost instantaneously. The resistor is either at its
correct value, or blown open.
And of course, there are special resistors that have been characterized
as fuses. They are your best choice if you can find one of the
appropriate resistance and wattage.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
You really should add it, especially for lead-acid packs. The single
most useful number it can provide is State of Charge. Without the
Peukert correction, simple amphour or watthour data is all but useless.
Gee, I didn't realize BRUSA Ah counter designers who purposely chose
not to implement Peukert correction (they easily could have) are such
an idiots who keep producing their useless device...
What is the purpose of the Brusa Ah counter? As an engineering
instrument so a technologically adept driver can measure what he's
doing? Or, is it meant as a "gas gauge" for typical ICE drivers?
All I'm saying is that a true "fuel" gauge is necessary if you expect
any normal ICE drivers to use it. Volts, amps, amphours, KWH, etc. just
don't mean anything to the average person.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I'm sure you know winding in separate sections without interleaving
leads to higher leakage inductance (thus higher reflected voltage
spikes, lower eff, etc.)
Yes; the high-isolation transformer has extra leakage inductance, which
drops efficiency from 85% to 75% Luckily, I'm only powering an E-meter
with it (under 3 watts), so the extra power loss isn't a problem.
Longer term, I won't need as much power. The V-F converter that replace
the E-meter uses so little power in comparison that even 50% transformer
efficiency doesn't matter.
You don't need to go to a transformer winding business (I don't want
that either), but you might want to design your transformer and let
someone else who is in that business manufacture it.
I'd do this if I wanted significant quantities. But at present, I'm
building maybe a dozen. Enough not to wind them myself, but not enough
to interest anyone in making a custom part for me.
What I'm trying now are common mode chokes. They are used as noise
filters on the AC line input to switching power supplies. Typically
their "primary" and "secondary" are in opposite sides of the AC line, so
they always have high isolation between these windings. But the ones
with toroidal cores still have pretty high coupling between these
windings (low leakage inductance). I have some larger ones that work,
but ordered smaller ones that will actually fit on my Companion board
(which has to cuddle up to the back of the 2" dia. E-meter without
extending its depth excessively).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for that great explanation Lee.
What I envision is each module will have a monitor. But the monitors
will all be on one pcb. So a pair of 24ga teflon insulated wires would
go from each module to a DB connector on the monitor board. Having a
DB connector allows me to remove it from the monitoring board and use
it for plugging in an equalizing board made up of 28 Zregs. Maybe the
EQ board and the monitoring board could be in parallel all of the time.
If the metal film resistor blows open then the wire going to it would
be hanging loose. So does the ring lug that holds the metal film
resistor need to have shrink tubing overlapping the lug and the
resistor to keep a mechanical connection in case of a blown resistor?
Or does the metal film resistor not melt in half as it's failure mode?
Something else. I have a small lcd temerature monitor watching over
the pack temp in one location. It uses a thermistor. Whenever the main
contactors engage, the thermometer display goes from scrambled to 0.0c
to 25c (actual temp). Is there some EMI/EFI that's conducting into the
thermistor wiring? Could this same thing happen with a monitoring system?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > Lee,
> >
> > Some time ago you mentioned using 1/8 or 1/4 watt metal film resistors
> > for fuses at each battery. Does it matter if it's metal film or could
> > it be carbon? Is it more of a size issue that determines the
> > "fuseability" of a resistor?
>
> Carbon composition resistors are good for handling huge overloads
> *without* failing. You do *NOT* want to use them as fuses, because you
> can't predict when they'll finally fail.
>
> Carbon film resistors have a ceramic tube with a layer of carbon
> deposited on it as the resistance element. They will work as fuses, but
> tend to change resistance value drastically as a consequence of
heating.
> Don't use them as fuses if you depend on their resistance value to
> make the circuit work, because a near-fusing even will permantently
> change their resistance.
>
> Metal film resistors make the best fuse resistors. Nothing happens to
> their resistance until the metal hits its melting point; then it tends
> to vaporize almost instantaneously. The resistor is either at its
> correct value, or blown open.
>
> And of course, there are special resistors that have been characterized
> as fuses. They are your best choice if you can find one of the
> appropriate resistance and wattage.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm running some cables through conduit and I have some questions for the
group. What I'm doing is
running a pair of 2/0 cables from the battery pack to the controller through 1
1/4" conduit. I'll
be twisting them together in an effort to minimize noise/radio interference. So
far so good. I'd
also like to run a pair of #10 wires from my charger through the same conduit.
Any problem running
them all in the same conduit? The pair of #10 wires will be twisted together,
and then I'd like to
wrap them together with the 2/0 cables so they fit better in the conduit? If I
laid the pair of
#10 wires next to the 2/0 cables, they might not pull them all through the
conduit. That's why I
was thinking of twisting them all together.
Dave Cover
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
This was sent to me by a friend...
http://mfile.akamai.com/12924/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2006/0503/9152183.200k.asx
"The above site will open to a blank screen - just wait for the video to load.
NBC in California got some great shots on Jiffy Lube stores ripping their
customers off big time. I wouldn't drive past a Jiffy Lube let alone let them
work on my car! The information below is customer's complaints about Jiffy
Lube cheating them. Notice they come from all across America."
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
You really should add it, especially for lead-acid packs. The single
most useful number it can provide is State of Charge. Without the
Peukert correction, simple amphour or watthour data is all but useless.
Gee, I didn't realize BRUSA Ah counter designers who purposely chose
not to implement Peukert correction (they easily could have) are such
an idiots who keep producing their useless device...
What is the purpose of the Brusa Ah counter? As an engineering
instrument so a technologically adept driver can measure what he's
doing? Or, is it meant as a "gas gauge" for typical ICE drivers?
The purpose of Ah counter (which is also Wh-counter) is to count
amp-hours (or Wh) spent as you drive. No different from the
gas fuel gauge which shows amount of fuel in gallons (at best)
or 1/2, 1/4 etc. at worst and you have to remember how many
gallons your tank is). ICE fuel gauges aren't calibrated
in miles and people has no issue with that. They learn
quickly to associate 1/2 with, say, 200 miles, or rather
with "I can fill up after tomorrow". Wh consumption is no
different. I know, Wh available depends much more on
how you drive EV than gas consumption in ICE, but the
principle stands: if I got 20 kWh pack and my counter shows
I spent 15 kWh obviously my pack is 1/4 full, e.g. 5 kWh left.
*Then* (and the process is no different than for ICE) I know
that with consumption of 5 miles per kWh, I can go about
5*5=25 more miles before drop dead, plain and simple.
If you adjust for Peukert, you:
a) need to know exactly what it is for your battery
b) need to make adjustment to it based on the temp and age
else it throws one more variable in the mix.
I'm not saying it is useless, but value added is very little
after I already know Wh spent.
Not to mention, that if you use non-lead acid battery,
Peukert adjustment becomes absolute useless feature.
BRUSA's decision not to include this adjustment was
based on the feed back from test drivers whether they
see it as a benefit. Most expressed desire to know
how much energy their vehicle spent and how far they
still can go. This has nothing to do with type of the
battery and adjustments for its characteristics; Ah meter
is just an energy consumption meter.
Only if you try to convert it to miles, adjustment
is needed, but as you said about average Joe, he
does not convert "1/2 of tank" to miles left.
So he wouldn't do it for Ah (Wh) consumed either.
I don't miss lack of Peukert adjustment at all
(well, I don't use lead battery, but when I did,
I didn't miss it either).
I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
Victor
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