EV Digest 6005
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) REVA (not) in Australia
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Pricing Lithium-ion Valence Group buy
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT fiberglass questions
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Returning to that creaky rough EV experience
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: lee's emeter companion?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this month
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: air suspension - Roland, got your ears on?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Golf Carts, What Can They Teach?
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: OT fiberglass questions
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: lee's emeter companion?
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Request Porsche 914 power requirements at 65mph
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT fiberglass questions
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
G'day All
Small item in todays newspaper - a REVA that had been imported to Australia
by an Adelaide (south Australia) company has been required to be
re-exported or crushed, crash-test requirements being cited as the reason.
The federal opposition gets a mention as being in support of EVs (but they
seem to be in support of anything that may get them a few votes).
Back to work...
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Something I just noted on the Valence PDF page that
> > everyone seems to have missed. Or maybe I am miss
> > understanding Four series connected batteries
> > ( 60 Volt max system voltage)
> > So they may not work like I have read this list
> > talking about with 300 volt or I think I read 480
> > Volts. This may be a PDF mis-print but you may
> > want to verify before that group purchase.
> >
>
> I saw that too. I believe it probably has something
> to do with their optional, external, battery management
> system.
Hopefully for the last time: you guys are reading the wrong datasheet.
There are two U-charge product series, the RT and the XP. The RT series
includes internal circuitry to limit the min/max voltage, etc., and as
you can imagine, this involves a switch (FET most likely) internally in
series with the cells to allow the battery to interrupt the
charge/discharge current as required to protect itself. Since FETs come
in specific current and voltage ratings, they will impose a limit on the
maximum charge/discharge current that the RT series modules can support,
as well as on the maximum series string voltage (since when the switch
turns off, it will have full pack voltage across it).
The XP series datasheet specifically states that the modules may be
connected for series strings of up to 450V. The details at the top of
this datasheet also clarify that the XP series modules do *not* include
the over/undervoltge protection of the RT series. And, the max
charge/discharge specs for the XP series modules are much more
attractive for EV use.
Finally, while external BMS boxes are available for both the RT and XP
series, the XP series datasheet describes two flavours of BMS: BMS-XP-LV
for series strings of 10-150V, and BMS-XP-HV for strings of 100-450V.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's hard for me to picture the exact circumstances, I've never even
seen a fiberglass I-beam before.
Generally all joints should be made with an appropriate layer of
fiberglass on the outside. Also, composite epoxy tends to run off and
does not make a good glue by itself. There are several useful products
to fix this- cabosil (fumed silica) thickens epoxy without otherwise
changing its properties. Glass bubbles (microballoons) thicken it,
lighten it, and also make it less expensive to fill a volume. Milled
glass fibers thicken and strengthen it.
Typically you'd make a paste with those products, put it together, when
fully cured you sand off the excess to make a smooth surface. Then
glass over the outside with a good structural layer and pay attention to
the fiber's direction. The glass provides far, far better tensile
strength due not only to the very high tensile strength of the fibers
but the way it's being laid out over the outer surface and not just
trying to glue two pieces butted together.
Danny
Dave Cover wrote:
I'd also like to use these as the frame for two door panels I'm making for my
battery pack. THese
doors will lie flat over the battery boxes and act as the floor to the hatch
area in the back of
my car. I'll miter the pieces at the corners. Can I just use some of the epoxy
resin to glue the
I-beams togther in the corners, or is there a better way to connect these fiberglass members?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Exactly. For instance the Tzero & Tesla Roadster have each over 6000
> batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
But paralleled lithium cells are not as troublesome as paralleled NiMH
cells! You'd need AirLabs management system to keep them happy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David, et.al.,
Yes, I found that after I started looking at the html
documentation files, and sure enough, it was in my Start menu
programs. So now I'm able to get some usable pdf files.
In which case, I have posted the sg reading pdf files at
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/batteries, sub-directory
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/batteries/hydrometer_readings.
Over in http://www.geocities.com/chursch/batteries/load_tests, I
have posted the recent (actually the one-and-only) 75A load test.
And during that load test I was able to gather voltage-drop data
for the post-heating problem I've had; that's in
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/batteries/battery_posts/voltage_drops.
I don't understand in that data why the 13+/14- post pair
registered such a high-voltage drop w/o turning the Celsi-Dot.
Thanks,
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger &
Roland
> Use the program PDFEdit995 to change various options about
PDF995, including
> the option to start a new file each time you print something
instead of
> adding the printout to the previous file.
>
> >>
> >> Looking forward to it!
> >>
> >> If you get yourself of a copy of pdf995
> > <http://www.pdf995.com/> (free),
> >> then you can print your spreadsheet plots, etc. to it just
as
> > you would
> >> to any printer and have a nice .pdf format document to
share.
> > Printing
> >> Excel plots, etc. to pdf995 results in compact files that
you
> > can zoom
> >> in on to see data without the image falling apart like a jpg
or
> > other
> >> capture will.
> >
> > Roger,
> >
> > I tried printing the spreadsheet with pdf995, and as I feared
the
> > spreadsheet was way down about page 24 of the pdf file, after
> > other stuff I tried printing with pdf995 many months ago. I
> > looked at C:\pdf995\res\pdf995.ini, and there is a Combine
> > Documents entry set to 1. However, changing stuff in this
file
> > probably won't do me any good, since the file is created by
> > pdf995 on the fly when I create the pdf file. I don't see
any
> > settings in Page Setup of Microsoft Works that would affect
this
> > (nor have I in any other app trying to use pdf995. And I
don't
> > think I have any other way to modify the pdf file. It's
> > conceivable that the Presentation Manager program that came
with
> > my scanner might have a route, but I'll have to explore that.
> > Any hints?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chuck
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While on vacation back in the ol' homelands of Denver, NE
Colorado, and the pan-handle of Nebraska this last week, rented a
nice new 2006 Toyota Camry from Hertz. The car ran effortlessly
down the interstate at 75-80 mph, barely hearing a burble from
the 2.4L motor up-front, riding on a nicely isolated spaceframe
chassis. Lots of nice new pavement out there, where it seems
there has a been a road-building boom (some may not view that as
quite so nice, I'm just talking about the smoothness). 30mpg.
Get back here to California, Bay Area, where the roads don't seem
so smooth anymore (Prop 13, etc.?). Had to switch planes at DIA
(Denver) because of an oil leak. Got back to Marin after what
seemed like a long day. I was tired and pooped and emotionally
burnt out, head ringing from tinnitis. How many hours can it
take to get the baggage and go home on the airporter?
Had no groceries in the fridge, and neither did my mom at her
apt. So I took her and myself to the grocery store. Pull out
the Yellow Banana (the EV Rabbit). Cold batteries, transaxle and
wheel bearing grease cold. Had to fold down the rear seat to
accomodate my mother's walker, which always makes things noisier,
since the VoltsRabbit fan inlet hole for the rear pack exposes
the interior directly to the road. Hit the road. This car feels
stiff and heavy compared to the Camry. That creaky rear strut
(don't know what's wrong with it) still has to come out and be
replaced. Road harshness and noise up the kazoo. (It's better
now with the Goodyear Integritys than those Invictas, and the psi
is lower too.) Tranny seems rather loud. :-( I bet my mother
was :-(, although I think she has never really liked the car.
It's always better after the batteries get cycled back up, and
the car limbers up in general, and I get used to the scene. I
guess a 1980 chassis can't compare with a modern chassis,
although it's better than the ol' '68 Beetle I used to have. But
it brings me to ask one particular ?. It seems that there used
to be shocks available that would let the car move up and down
some in the middle of the shock's travel range, but once outside
that range, the shock would stiffen up. I don't remember what
they were called (Dual Action?), but it would certainly seem to
be helpful in absorbing some of the harshness and road noise and
still keep things damped out when needed. I'm due for some new
rear struts, so that's one reason I'm asking. Seems like most
shops offer struts without taking into consideration the need for
increased damping due to the higher weight of the conversion over
stock.
Better now at vacation end plus two days. The EV smile
returns... :-) It's all part of that EV experience.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another thing you can do to keep you ahead of the curve is to use
a non-reversible temperature sensing dot, such as the Celsi-Dot
at omega.com. This has been discussed on the EVDL, so you might
want to check the archives.
You can have nicely tightened clamps on your posts, and you can
still get a hot post, for whatever reason. The Celsi-Dot
approach pointed out several of my posts that were getting hot,
and from the test I ran at
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/batteries/battery_posts/voltage_drops/060902_post_voltage_drops.pdf,
it is apparently defective cables, so I get to make up some new
ones.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
> I drove in the wrong gear and did the same thing...
> USB was able to melt on a new post, but due to plastic
> melting around it, always got acid vapor (corrosion)
> around it just a smidge faster than all of the rest.
> Would imagine trojan would want to claim the same.
> Check with your distributor. It was $5 for me, but
> that was 8 years ago.
>
> FWIW, you might consider Bellville washers. Mike
> Brown at ElectroAuto sells them for dirt cheap, and
> the goal is to maintain tight contact.
> peace,
>
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Today was my first break down.
> >
> > I was 7 miles from home towards work, and upon
> > accelerating at a traffic
> > light lost motor power. I quickly pulled into the
> > first available lot, and
> > discovered one of my battery posts completely melted
> > the post down to
> > molten nothingness.
> >
> > I learned my lesson for sure. I should have watered
> > my batteries 10 days
> > ago, so would have naturally checked for loose
> > connections at the same
> > time.
> >
> > I was able to jumper past the battery in 40 minutes
> > and get on my way. I
> > won't have automatic charging (Zivan will overcharge
> > a pack with one less
> > battery) until I replace fix.
> >
> > ???QUESTIONS:???
> >
> > 1. Can a Trojan T-125 battery post be rebuilt?
> > 2. If not, how can I get a similar (1 year old)
> > battery?
> > 3. If not, how should I order a new battery to have
> > it match the others
> > most closely
> >
> >
> >
> > 2nd set of questions.
> > In my vehicle, both battery post clamps and battery
> > copper lugs are used.
> > Today, I learned I should have long ago replaced the
> > post clamp with copper
> > lugs.
> > However, I'm also baffled.
> > battery post clamps have been around forever, and I
> > doubt loosen in
> > gasoline vehicle environments. So, why have I had
> > trouble with this. It
> > was fairly tight 2 months ago.
> > I had problem with another clamp 5 months ago that
> > partially melted a post
> > (not too much), I caught it in time, so that it is
> > really tight.
> >
> > ??Are clamps inferior to lugs, or is it just the
> > installation that is
> > inferior?
> >
> > For the rest of you, tighten your connections if you
> > don't already.
> > I learned the $100 way
> >
> > BTW. I've never been able to fix my gas car when it
> > died. This is proof
> > that this is the great technology!! (one that can be
> > fixed by the average
> > Joe)
> >
> > I'll keep you POSTED,
> > Ben
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK Victor,
Now you're denying the importance of Peukert correction.
Have it your way.
Indeed I do sometimes take the freeway, sometimes take
surface roads, whatever I feel or need and speed and range
do differ a lot.
Sometimes I may have a hard time getting 15 kWh from my
batteries, sometimes I may get close to 20 kWh from them.
(They are 34 kWh at 20h rate)
I would sure like to have a gauge that says '0' when I should
stop driving. I can see the gauge move towards that point
and it will move faster when I drive faster, slower otherwise.
That is exactly the same as what happens in a gas car, so any
driver will be able to use this gauge (!)
He does not need to know and he does not care that the actual
"tank" can go from 20 to 15 kWh dependent on his driving,
that I agree with.
But everyone likes to know when to stop and to have an
estimate how far they still can go.
If the car stops with the gauge at 1/4 full, you have a problem.
Well - you say that you do not have a problem, but that is
because you do not manufacture cars for others.
I do neither, but I would not want to be one with a gauge
that has such a characteristic, because I do not like to deal
with unhappy customers.
So yes - I recommend to have a Peukert (or other inefficiency)
implemented in the Ah/kWh meter and indeed I do like the
functionality of the E-meter.
For Joe Average, I would display the values from the E-meter
in a format that resembles the dash indicator of the particular
car, often just an Empty - 1/4 - 1/2 - 3/4 - Full scale.
YMMV (your gauge too)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lee's emeter companion?
Cor,
Your reply just tells me that you don't know how to
estimate capacity of your battery in a first place.
If you tell customer he has 20 gal fuel tank and he
gets stuck running out of fuel after spending
15 gallons, he will be unhappy as well.
Note, that fuel consumption rate works accurately,
just initial capacity was assumed wrong.
Same here. BRUSA Wh meter works VERY accurately.
If you assume you have 20 kWh and you indeed
have 15kWh (at the rate you consume normally,
in average), it has nothing to do with
consumption measurement device.
I know, it's 15kW at higher speeds and 20 kWh
at lower, and the difference *can be* compensated
for by Peukert. But normally average people
don't drive slow all day today and fast all day
tomorrow. Experience showed that average usage
is pretty even, so actual capacity *at that average
rate* in kWh can also be estimated good enough.
Yes, if you happen to drive super fast or tow
something, for such trip real battery capacity
assumption *you* make will be wrong, but it is
your ignorance problem, not Wh counter's.
Again, Wh counter just counts Wh.
As I said, high speed driving increases gas
fuel consumption per mile as well, so
you won't quite cover the same amount of
miles driving at 75mph as you wood at 35 mph,
(so, effectively, your fuel tank is smaller
at high speeds) but this doesn't bother you,
does it? ICE fuel gauge has no adjustment for
poorer fuel efficiency. It sure not as pronounced
as shrinkage of the EV battery, but the principle
stands. If *you know* your tank is smaller
if you drive faster, why complain later that
Wh meter didn't warn you?
The job of Wh meter is to measure Wh.
If you want it also to do report degree of
shrinkage of your "fuel tank" you implement
Peukert. But then, when you press accelerator
it reports that you can go 15 miles. Ease
on the pedal, and it reports 25 miles available.
Go up hill, and it reports 5 miles available.
All over place. Having such reports is worse
and more confusing than just knowing Wh spent.
This is why it is not implemented by BRUSA.
But, I have no issues with someone not
liking it. Just get an e-meter then.
Victor
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Victor,
>
> You are not addressing the issue.
>
> Without Peukert correction the "fuel gauge"
> can read 1/4 full when your batteries are empty,
> so you are guaranteeing that a newbie EVer is
> going to hurt his pack big time.
>
> This has nothing to do with reading in miles or %
> or whatever you want to calibrate your fuel gauge in,
> simply the fact that you can take out no more than
> 15 kWh after you put in 20 kWh (for example) so if
> you blindly rely on a fuel gauge counting down the
> energy you put in while taking it out to show how
> far you would be able to go, you are going to get
> stuck at 3/4 the range that you were expecting,
> unless you do correct for Peukert and other
> inefficiencies.
> I know that Peukert is only valid for lead, but
> other chemistries are also inefficient, so you
> should correct for that as well, only differently.
>
> The fact that this feature is not implemented in
> the Brusa tells me that they rather ignored the
> problem or received feedback from the wrong people
> because when I as a lay person get an indication
> gauge and it does not register reliably and may
> cause me to run out of fuel while it still
> indicates I should have 1/4 capacity left, then I
> do not trust that gauge after that any more.
> And I already cause a lot of damage (running the
> pack too low, possibly reversing cells and in
> general I would consider how I could get my damage
> back from the people that give me a digitally
> accurate indicator and then have it misrepresent
> the information so badly.
> I would not at all be pleased with a Brusa meter.
> Count me out.
> Thanks for the warning.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:08 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: lee's emeter companion?
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>>> You really should add it, especially for lead-acid packs. The single
>>>> most useful number it can provide is State of Charge. Without the
>>>> Peukert correction, simple amphour or watthour data is all but useless.
>>> Gee, I didn't realize BRUSA Ah counter designers who purposely chose
>>> not to implement Peukert correction (they easily could have) are such
>>> an idiots who keep producing their useless device...
>> What is the purpose of the Brusa Ah counter? As an engineering
>> instrument so a technologically adept driver can measure what he's
>> doing? Or, is it meant as a "gas gauge" for typical ICE drivers?
>
> The purpose of Ah counter (which is also Wh-counter) is to count
> amp-hours (or Wh) spent as you drive. No different from the
> gas fuel gauge which shows amount of fuel in gallons (at best)
> or 1/2, 1/4 etc. at worst and you have to remember how many
> gallons your tank is). ICE fuel gauges aren't calibrated
> in miles and people has no issue with that. They learn
> quickly to associate 1/2 with, say, 200 miles, or rather
> with "I can fill up after tomorrow". Wh consumption is no
> different. I know, Wh available depends much more on
> how you drive EV than gas consumption in ICE, but the
> principle stands: if I got 20 kWh pack and my counter shows
> I spent 15 kWh obviously my pack is 1/4 full, e.g. 5 kWh left.
> *Then* (and the process is no different than for ICE) I know
> that with consumption of 5 miles per kWh, I can go about
> 5*5=25 more miles before drop dead, plain and simple.
>
> If you adjust for Peukert, you:
> a) need to know exactly what it is for your battery
> b) need to make adjustment to it based on the temp and age
> else it throws one more variable in the mix.
>
> I'm not saying it is useless, but value added is very little
> after I already know Wh spent.
>
> Not to mention, that if you use non-lead acid battery,
> Peukert adjustment becomes absolute useless feature.
>
> BRUSA's decision not to include this adjustment was
> based on the feed back from test drivers whether they
> see it as a benefit. Most expressed desire to know
> how much energy their vehicle spent and how far they
> still can go. This has nothing to do with type of the
> battery and adjustments for its characteristics; Ah meter
> is just an energy consumption meter.
>
> Only if you try to convert it to miles, adjustment
> is needed, but as you said about average Joe, he
> does not convert "1/2 of tank" to miles left.
> So he wouldn't do it for Ah (Wh) consumed either.
>
> I don't miss lack of Peukert adjustment at all
> (well, I don't use lead battery, but when I did,
> I didn't miss it either).
>
> I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
>
> Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just saw this in the magazine.
He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with no
transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
Lead acid batteries.
Looks good and is inexpensive.
Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
month
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: air suspension - Roland, got your ears on?
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello David,
> >
> > I am using a air suspension from Air Ride Technologies.
> >
> > www.tidetech.com Ph: 812-482-2932
> >
>
> I think you mean http://www.ridetech.com
That's right. But I do use Tide.
Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are those two ports on the end? Are they water cooling ports?
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One mans cheap is another mans expensive but I think these are fairly
reasonable and they have hundreds of them. If anyone is interested in multiple
units they will deal on price. They have their phone number listed.
_http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230029345207_
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230029345207)
If anyone wants a good deal on a single one contact me.
Don
In a message dated 10/11/2006 12:16:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The big problem is the motor, three phase EV motors aren't that cheap or
easy to
come by.
Anyway, just thought I'd mention it, back to sundays of building my A123 BMS.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been on the EV list for about 5 years mainly as a lurker myself.
Way back when I started watching EV stuff I mentioned golf carts to a
few EV people and back then they seemed to not want to be associated
with golf carts. One EV gal explained to me that typical golf carts were
15 MPH and slow which is why EV folks may not want to be associated with
them so I lurked on the EV discussion list most of the time but joined
in on the golf cart forums much more.
Rod, about five years ago I was playing with 72V in an old Taylor Dunn
and called EV Parts where I spoke with you. You told me about the old
Harley in Jerome, AZ and how the brush holder blew off at 132 volts... I
think it was. I am a little surprised you still remember me; it's been
quite a while since my last contact with you.
Lyle, glad to have helped and thanks for the compliments, it's good to
know folks appreciate some of my work.
I am pleased to see the EV world and NEV world are getting closer
together, neither are what they were 5 years ago and there is much to be
learned from both.
This event in Kentucky had a cart with an AC system who also won a
trophy!
>From my perspective the EV revolution is only getting stronger with the
help of NEVs.
Thanks to Jim Stack, president of the Phoenix Electric Auto Association
I decide to print this blurb on little EVs.
Electric Vehicles have showed me there is no real limit as to how far
one can go, once you truly believe you have no limit you start to excel.
Thanks,
Nate
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry Victor, I have to support Lee, the ability to add the PK factor
to the calculation would be a requirement in my book. For example,
my Force had a Brusa style meter that was not PK
compensated. Occasionally I would find myself in the position of
having driven most of the day at low speeds and then taken the
freeway at higher speeds. Without the PK factor, I was left with no
real idea of what my actual state of charge was. While this kind of
thing is something an experienced EVer can learn to work with, it is
not the way I would want it to work if I simply hand the keys to
someone else and say "drive my car".
Ideally, I would want the ability to display miles to "empty" at the
current rate of charge.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: OT fiberglass questions
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:15:16 -0500
It's hard for me to picture the exact circumstances, I've never even seen a
fiberglass I-beam before.
Fiberglass ladders have side rails that are I-beams. Maybe these are
similar.
Those always seemed to me to made with chopped fiber and not cloth. They
also look like they're mostly resin, and not much glass, but it's hard to
tell by just looking. They must have good strength.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've see the Peukert factor at work with my NIMH and Nicad packs. It's
a fairly sizeable influence. Just not as bad as lead.
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are considerable problems in balancing the charge with large
quantities of NiMH or Li-Ion batteries.
The problem still exists whether you put them in parallel before putting
them in series, or have a bunch of series strings tied in parallel.
You'd think that if you wired 8 batteries in parallel that they'd charge
and discharge the same. Lead-acid can generally be charged this way but
NiMH can develop charge balance problems that cannot be resolved without
electrically separating the batteries or dumping enough extra charge
into it to get the weaker cell(s) back up, at the expense of
overcharging the full cells (which is bad news).
Also it's worthy to note that, due to the scale of the problem, you'd
need so many small batteries that the cost is still incredibly high. It
may be more expensive than working with large cells even before you look
at how much expense is involved in interconnecting thousands of cells.
Danny
Anybody run the numbers on assembling an ev from small nickal metal
hydrides?
As in consumer electronic equipment types? Or is that what you are
doing?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chris,
When you give us the amps at speed numbers could you let us know
what you pack voltage sagged to and how far you had gone since charge as
well?
Thanks,
Nate
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Sutton
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Request Porsche 914 power requirements at 65mph
I don't have a 914, but I do travel about 22 miles each way to work each
day on the interstate and get going upwards of 70 to 75mph.
I have a 1974 Toyota Celica, which is a farily light small car, with a
120v pack (15 8v trojans), and a Curtis 550amp controller. It also has
a 5 speed transmission (which I think the 914 has).
By average power requirement, what exactly are you looking for? Amps
drawn at 65mph? I can check tomorrow, but for me my guess is between
250 and 350.
On a related note, I have been thinking about how to capture better data
about power requirements and efficiencies.
Currently, I'm keeping a log book of how far I travel each day, and when
I charge at night, I record the total number of kwh needed to recharge
the batteries (using a kill-a-watt meter).
http://www.chriskate.net/electriccar.html
What if you had a small computer, which is reading the pack voltage, amp
draw, gps location (and calculating rough speed, elevation change), and
also amps getting put back into the batteries (charging or regen), and
recording this data once every minute or so (or more often).
Then you could take this data and do some very insightful analysis. I
could do all of this, except I don't know how to read the pack voltage,
and amp draws into a computer (linux). There has to be some external IO
things, which can plug into a serial or USB port. Anyone ever done this
or can point me in the right direction to get it done?
Hell, you could even set the system up to plug into the internet from
time to time and upload the data into a central place (evalbum?).
On 10/10/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Any 914 pilots out there that can run a quick test and tell us what
> the power requirements are on flat level ground with no wind?
> Preferably an average power requirement taken going both directions on
> the same stretch or road.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Installing new battery clamps the first time, which should be plated brass
type, you have to do several test before you run your EV and right after you
run your EV.
The first test is to tighten all the battery connectors with a inch lb.
torque wrench to the recommended manufacturer torque specifications.
Example: I tight all my battery connections to 75 inch lbs which has a range
of 50 to 105 inch lbs. Drive the EV 5 miles, then re-tighten again after
each 5 mile run. You will find that you will loss about 5 inch lbs the
first time and it will get less and less each time.
This is call the shrink back factor, where the rough surface scratches on
the lead post melt down a little.
If the shrink back factor is staying around 1-2 inch lbs per 5 miles, then
you can calculated how many miles you can drive before you get to 50 inch
lbs which would be the minimum you want to go.
If the battery lead post has a stud on it, I do not connect cable lugs to
these post. What happens after a amount of time, is that the stud bolt head
pulls through the post which mushrooms the battery post and than loosens up.
I will use a battery clamp on these type of post with the clamp just flush
to the top of the post. These can be tighten to about 75 inch lbs.
Then I install a stainless steel washer on the top stud which is against the
top of the battery clamp. I than can torque this stud up to 100 in.lbs
putting downward pressure on the battery clamp. This also puts more of a
surface pressure against the inside of the battery clamp.
Now the shrink back factor about completely reduced. I have run over 6
months using these type of installation, after I did my initial torque test.
Another quick test of the battery connectors is to a battery link shunt
test, while the batteries are being charge. Using a multimeter in the
millivolt scale, connect the meter in parallel with the battery link.
Attach the leads to the battery lead post, not to the link.
You will note the ma reading to be about 0.01V in many of the connections,
but if you find one that is greater than 0.01V, than tighten that connection
until it reads the same shunt voltage as the others.
CAUTION: While the charger is on, you must have all insulated tools,
gloves, electrical rubber blankets that you can drape over the batteries
while you are working on them for this type of test.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
> Another thing you can do to keep you ahead of the curve is to use
> a non-reversible temperature sensing dot, such as the Celsi-Dot
> at omega.com. This has been discussed on the EVDL, so you might
> want to check the archives.
>
> You can have nicely tightened clamps on your posts, and you can
> still get a hot post, for whatever reason. The Celsi-Dot
> approach pointed out several of my posts that were getting hot,
> and from the test I ran at
> http://www.geocities.com/chursch/batteries/battery_posts/voltage_drops/060902_post_voltage_drops.pdf,
> it is apparently defective cables, so I get to make up some new
> ones.
>
> Chuck
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:56 PM
> Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
>
>
> > I drove in the wrong gear and did the same thing...
> > USB was able to melt on a new post, but due to plastic
> > melting around it, always got acid vapor (corrosion)
> > around it just a smidge faster than all of the rest.
> > Would imagine trojan would want to claim the same.
> > Check with your distributor. It was $5 for me, but
> > that was 8 years ago.
> >
> > FWIW, you might consider Bellville washers. Mike
> > Brown at ElectroAuto sells them for dirt cheap, and
> > the goal is to maintain tight contact.
> > peace,
> >
> >
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Today was my first break down.
> > >
> > > I was 7 miles from home towards work, and upon
> > > accelerating at a traffic
> > > light lost motor power. I quickly pulled into the
> > > first available lot, and
> > > discovered one of my battery posts completely melted
> > > the post down to
> > > molten nothingness.
> > >
> > > I learned my lesson for sure. I should have watered
> > > my batteries 10 days
> > > ago, so would have naturally checked for loose
> > > connections at the same
> > > time.
> > >
> > > I was able to jumper past the battery in 40 minutes
> > > and get on my way. I
> > > won't have automatic charging (Zivan will overcharge
> > > a pack with one less
> > > battery) until I replace fix.
> > >
> > > ???QUESTIONS:???
> > >
> > > 1. Can a Trojan T-125 battery post be rebuilt?
> > > 2. If not, how can I get a similar (1 year old)
> > > battery?
> > > 3. If not, how should I order a new battery to have
> > > it match the others
> > > most closely
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2nd set of questions.
> > > In my vehicle, both battery post clamps and battery
> > > copper lugs are used.
> > > Today, I learned I should have long ago replaced the
> > > post clamp with copper
> > > lugs.
> > > However, I'm also baffled.
> > > battery post clamps have been around forever, and I
> > > doubt loosen in
> > > gasoline vehicle environments. So, why have I had
> > > trouble with this. It
> > > was fairly tight 2 months ago.
> > > I had problem with another clamp 5 months ago that
> > > partially melted a post
> > > (not too much), I caught it in time, so that it is
> > > really tight.
> > >
> > > ??Are clamps inferior to lugs, or is it just the
> > > installation that is
> > > inferior?
> > >
> > > For the rest of you, tighten your connections if you
> > > don't already.
> > > I learned the $100 way
> > >
> > > BTW. I've never been able to fix my gas car when it
> > > died. This is proof
> > > that this is the great technology!! (one that can be
> > > fixed by the average
> > > Joe)
> > >
> > > I'll keep you POSTED,
> > > Ben
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > Learn more at:
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got these off eBay. They are called Pultruded and are very nice. I just have
to figure how to
use them. They cut well and are very consistent in quality. I bought more than
I need, but I'm
sure I'll find more uses for them.
Here's a link for another batch on ebay, it's kind of long, you may need to
paste the pieces
togther.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fiberglass-I-Beams-1-x1-x-38-5-Lot-of-54_W0QQitemZ200035607230QQihZ010QQcategoryZ26197QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Thanks for all the fiberglass help, these doors are gonna be great!
Dave COver
--- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> >From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: OT fiberglass questions
> >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:15:16 -0500
> >
> >It's hard for me to picture the exact circumstances, I've never even seen a
> >fiberglass I-beam before.
>
>
> Fiberglass ladders have side rails that are I-beams. Maybe these are
> similar.
>
> Those always seemed to me to made with chopped fiber and not cloth. They
> also look like they're mostly resin, and not much glass, but it's hard to
> tell by just looking. They must have good strength.
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
>
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
For instance, if my 'fuel' guage
shows 1/4 capacity remaining, and I am consuming about 100Wh/mi driving
on surface streets at low speed, I might mentally figure that 1/4 my
capacity is X Wh, so I have X/100 miles of range remaining. However, if
I am driving on the highway and consuming 300Wh/mi, and do the same
calculation, I will run out of juice because my remaining range is not
X/300 miles, because at this higher discharge rate my remaining capacity
is something less than X: the size of my tank depends on how I am
driving!
I know that. So your average (over many days if you will) driving
pattern calls for 200Wh consumption in mixed freeway and slow speed
driving. Thus this is the size of your fuel tank.
YEs it will be smaller if you suddenly decide to run on freeway
all day long, but a) it is out of ordinary, and b) you *know*
you won't have as many Wh available as usual if you do that.
Peukert is only part of this, of course, since the size of my (PbA) tank
also varies with battery temperature, age/condition, etc., but if
incorporating a Peukert correction into the *fuel guage* display can
help to make the size of my tank more nearly constant then the
usefulness of this guage truly does approach that of the ICE fuel guage.
No, it won't make it constant because it isn't constant.
It will only visualize its shrinkage/expansion as you average
(per 4 min I think) consumption changes.
As for Peukert only being useful/applicable to PbA, this doesn't mean it
shouldn't be supported by the meter's software, it just means that the
meter must allow the valid range for the Peukert exponent to include the
value 1.0 (which effectively turns off Peukert correction). This is the
best both worlds since it allows the user to enable the feature if they
find it useful and to disable it if they don't or if it isn't applicable
to their pack chemistry.
I agree with that, except that if it cost more because of
amortization of the software development time, I'd rather
not to pay for something I won't be using.
Victor
--- End Message ---
